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Re: [S-R] Re: Open letter to Jim Downs

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  • Gil K.
    Frank, Thanks for the details on the Slovak uprising at Banská Bystrica in 1944. I had the sense from Jim s book and from other books I read that there were a
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 10, 2003
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      Frank,

      Thanks for the details on the Slovak uprising at Bansk� Bystrica in 1944.

      I had the sense from Jim's book and from other books I read that there were a number of players and many complexities involved in Slovakia at the time. The information you provided adds significant clarity to my understanding of the situation.

      I appreciate your feedback.

      Regards,

      Gil


      Frank <frankur@...> wrote:
      Gil,


      Re: The Slovak National Uprising at Bansk� Bystrica 1944.

      A revolt in Slovakia from August 28 - 29 to October 27, 1944. The
      uprising was planned by several
      groups: the Czechoslovak Agrarian party, the right wing of the Social
      Democratic party, the Communist
      party, estranged Slovak nationalists, and a army officers. In late
      December 1943 these groups, except
      for the officers, set up the Slovenska Narodna Rada (Slovak National
      Council; SNR). The primary aim of
      the uprising was to oust the Hlinkova Slovenska Ludova Strana (Slovak
      People's Party of Hlinka; HSLS)
      from power and free the state from its dependence on Nazi Germany. Not
      all the participants shared the
      same long - term goal. Members of the Czechoslovak Communist party and
      the bourgeois "Flora" group
      (which formed around a well - known Slovak politician, Dr. Vavro
      Srobar), aspired to a united
      Czechoslovakia. The Slovak faction of the Communist party advocated
      that Slovakia become a Soviet
      republic. Whereas the Agrarian party wanted to see the emergence of a
      united Czechoslovak republic,
      but with a good deal of Slovak autonomy.

      The uprising was supposed to coincide with an advance by the advanced
      against the rebels on three
      sides and Soviet army. But in the spring of 1944, partisan activity,
      especially under Soviet command,
      was intense. To forestall further partisan gains, on August 28 - 29
      the Germans invaded Slovakia and the
      uprising began. The rebels made significant gains in the early
      fighting. In the area they liberated, a
      Czechoslovak Republic was declared.

      The Germans hoped to suppress the uprising quickly, but the opposition
      proved strong. Late in
      September, SS - Obergruppenfuhrer Gottlob Berger, the chief commander
      of the German forces, was
      replaced by the Hoherer SS. - und Polizeifuhrer (Higher SS and Police
      Leader) SS - Obergruppenfuhrer
      Hermann Hofle. Within a few weeks, Hofle crushed the rebellion. Banska
      Bystrica, the center of the
      uprising, fell on October 27, 1944, thus ending the organized
      struggle. Guerrilla fighting continued in the
      mountains until the spring. The rebellion was weakened not only by
      internal political strife, but by Allied
      reluctance to support it fully.


      Armed underground Jewish cells existed in each of the three Slovak
      labor camps long before the SNR
      was established. Early in 1944 contact was established between them
      and the SNR, and the SNR
      included them in its strategy. For the Jews, an SNR victory could mean
      the rescue of the remaining
      Slovak community. More than 2,000 Jews fought in the uprising, 1,566
      as partisans, and 500 fell in
      battle. The 200 - man Novaky cell under the command of Dr. Imrich
      Muller (Milen), fought as a separate
      unit within the regular army; later most of the men joined the
      partisans.

      After the failed Slovak National Uprising at Bansk� Bystrica in 1944,
      the Germans executed thousands of Slovaks (including women and
      childen) in reprisal.

      Frank K

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    • Thomas Reimer
      You might note that the partisans had executed several thousand Carpathian Germans (about 2000, incl. women), plus Slovaks as well. This does not excuse the
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 10, 2003
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        You might note that the partisans had executed several thousand Carpathian
        Germans (about 2000, incl. women), plus Slovaks as well. This does not
        excuse the rather indiscriminate vengeance taken by German and SLOVAK units
        after the uprising, but one needs to know that the uprisers had committed
        atrocities before that.

        Thomas Reimer

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Gil K." <kubangil@...>
        To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 10:41 PM
        Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Open letter to Jim Downs


        Frank,

        Thanks for the details on the Slovak uprising at Banská Bystrica in 1944.

        I had the sense from Jim's book and from other books I read that there were
        a number of players and many complexities involved in Slovakia at the time.
        The information you provided adds significant clarity to my understanding of
        the situation.

        I appreciate your feedback.

        Regards,

        Gil


        Frank <frankur@...> wrote:
        Gil,


        Re: The Slovak National Uprising at Banská Bystrica 1944.

        A revolt in Slovakia from August 28 - 29 to October 27, 1944. The
        uprising was planned by several
        groups: the Czechoslovak Agrarian party, the right wing of the Social
        Democratic party, the Communist
        party, estranged Slovak nationalists, and a army officers. In late
        December 1943 these groups, except
        for the officers, set up the Slovenska Narodna Rada (Slovak National
        Council; SNR). The primary aim of
        the uprising was to oust the Hlinkova Slovenska Ludova Strana (Slovak
        People's Party of Hlinka; HSLS)
        from power and free the state from its dependence on Nazi Germany. Not
        all the participants shared the
        same long - term goal. Members of the Czechoslovak Communist party and
        the bourgeois "Flora" group
        (which formed around a well - known Slovak politician, Dr. Vavro
        Srobar), aspired to a united
        Czechoslovakia. The Slovak faction of the Communist party advocated
        that Slovakia become a Soviet
        republic. Whereas the Agrarian party wanted to see the emergence of a
        united Czechoslovak republic,
        but with a good deal of Slovak autonomy.

        The uprising was supposed to coincide with an advance by the advanced
        against the rebels on three
        sides and Soviet army. But in the spring of 1944, partisan activity,
        especially under Soviet command,
        was intense. To forestall further partisan gains, on August 28 - 29
        the Germans invaded Slovakia and the
        uprising began. The rebels made significant gains in the early
        fighting. In the area they liberated, a
        Czechoslovak Republic was declared.

        The Germans hoped to suppress the uprising quickly, but the opposition
        proved strong. Late in
        September, SS - Obergruppenfuhrer Gottlob Berger, the chief commander
        of the German forces, was
        replaced by the Hoherer SS. - und Polizeifuhrer (Higher SS and Police
        Leader) SS - Obergruppenfuhrer
        Hermann Hofle. Within a few weeks, Hofle crushed the rebellion. Banska
        Bystrica, the center of the
        uprising, fell on October 27, 1944, thus ending the organized
        struggle. Guerrilla fighting continued in the
        mountains until the spring. The rebellion was weakened not only by
        internal political strife, but by Allied
        reluctance to support it fully.


        Armed underground Jewish cells existed in each of the three Slovak
        labor camps long before the SNR
        was established. Early in 1944 contact was established between them
        and the SNR, and the SNR
        included them in its strategy. For the Jews, an SNR victory could mean
        the rescue of the remaining
        Slovak community. More than 2,000 Jews fought in the uprising, 1,566
        as partisans, and 500 fell in
        battle. The 200 - man Novaky cell under the command of Dr. Imrich
        Muller (Milen), fought as a separate
        unit within the regular army; later most of the men joined the
        partisans.

        After the failed Slovak National Uprising at Banská Bystrica in 1944,
        the Germans executed thousands of Slovaks (including women and
        childen) in reprisal.

        Frank K

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      • Thomas Reimer
        You might note that the partisans had executed several thousand Carpathian Germans (about 2000, incl. women), plus Slovaks as well. This does not excuse the
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 10, 2003
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          You might note that the partisans had executed several thousand Carpathian
          Germans (about 2000, incl. women), plus Slovaks as well. This does not
          excuse the rather indiscriminate vengeance taken by German and SLOVAK units
          after the uprising, but one needs to know that the uprisers had committed
          atrocities before that.

          Thomas Reimer

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Gil K." <kubangil@...>
          To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 10:41 PM
          Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Open letter to Jim Downs


          Frank,

          Thanks for the details on the Slovak uprising at Banská Bystrica in 1944.

          I had the sense from Jim's book and from other books I read that there were
          a number of players and many complexities involved in Slovakia at the time.
          The information you provided adds significant clarity to my understanding of
          the situation.

          I appreciate your feedback.

          Regards,

          Gil


          Frank <frankur@...> wrote:
          Gil,


          Re: The Slovak National Uprising at Banská Bystrica 1944.

          A revolt in Slovakia from August 28 - 29 to October 27, 1944. The
          uprising was planned by several
          groups: the Czechoslovak Agrarian party, the right wing of the Social
          Democratic party, the Communist
          party, estranged Slovak nationalists, and a army officers. In late
          December 1943 these groups, except
          for the officers, set up the Slovenska Narodna Rada (Slovak National
          Council; SNR). The primary aim of
          the uprising was to oust the Hlinkova Slovenska Ludova Strana (Slovak
          People's Party of Hlinka; HSLS)
          from power and free the state from its dependence on Nazi Germany. Not
          all the participants shared the
          same long - term goal. Members of the Czechoslovak Communist party and
          the bourgeois "Flora" group
          (which formed around a well - known Slovak politician, Dr. Vavro
          Srobar), aspired to a united
          Czechoslovakia. The Slovak faction of the Communist party advocated
          that Slovakia become a Soviet
          republic. Whereas the Agrarian party wanted to see the emergence of a
          united Czechoslovak republic,
          but with a good deal of Slovak autonomy.

          The uprising was supposed to coincide with an advance by the advanced
          against the rebels on three
          sides and Soviet army. But in the spring of 1944, partisan activity,
          especially under Soviet command,
          was intense. To forestall further partisan gains, on August 28 - 29
          the Germans invaded Slovakia and the
          uprising began. The rebels made significant gains in the early
          fighting. In the area they liberated, a
          Czechoslovak Republic was declared.

          The Germans hoped to suppress the uprising quickly, but the opposition
          proved strong. Late in
          September, SS - Obergruppenfuhrer Gottlob Berger, the chief commander
          of the German forces, was
          replaced by the Hoherer SS. - und Polizeifuhrer (Higher SS and Police
          Leader) SS - Obergruppenfuhrer
          Hermann Hofle. Within a few weeks, Hofle crushed the rebellion. Banska
          Bystrica, the center of the
          uprising, fell on October 27, 1944, thus ending the organized
          struggle. Guerrilla fighting continued in the
          mountains until the spring. The rebellion was weakened not only by
          internal political strife, but by Allied
          reluctance to support it fully.


          Armed underground Jewish cells existed in each of the three Slovak
          labor camps long before the SNR
          was established. Early in 1944 contact was established between them
          and the SNR, and the SNR
          included them in its strategy. For the Jews, an SNR victory could mean
          the rescue of the remaining
          Slovak community. More than 2,000 Jews fought in the uprising, 1,566
          as partisans, and 500 fell in
          battle. The 200 - man Novaky cell under the command of Dr. Imrich
          Muller (Milen), fought as a separate
          unit within the regular army; later most of the men joined the
          partisans.

          After the failed Slovak National Uprising at Banská Bystrica in 1944,
          the Germans executed thousands of Slovaks (including women and
          childen) in reprisal.

          Frank K

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          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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        • Gil K.
          Thomas, Thanks for your comment and I acknowledge your report on the the execution of the Carpathian Germans and Slovaks. As many have said War is hell and
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 11, 2003
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            Thomas,

            Thanks for your comment and I acknowledge your report on the the execution of the Carpathian Germans and Slovaks.

            As many have said "War is hell" and atrocities are synomous with war, and human reactions to threats of others

            How can one forget the atrocities that occurred during the rape of Nanking by the Japanese, the genocide of the Jews in Europe, Joe Stalin's annihillation of 20 million of his own people, Pol Pot's slaughter of the Cambodians, and the massacre at My Lai by American troops in Vietnam.

            There are many more examples of atrocities throughout the years and are not representative of civilized behavior.

            Gil Kubancsek


            Thomas Reimer <treimer@...> wrote:
            You might note that the partisans had executed several thousand Carpathian
            Germans (about 2000, incl. women), plus Slovaks as well. This does not
            excuse the rather indiscriminate vengeance taken by German and SLOVAK units
            after the uprising, but one needs to know that the uprisers had committed
            atrocities before that.

            Thomas Reimer










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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Frank
            ... Carpathian ... not ... SLOVAK units ... committed ... Dr. Reimer, (Believe that is correct) The Carpathian Germans were a small group of Germans living in
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 11, 2003
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              --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Reimer" <treimer@n...>
              wrote:
              > You might note that the partisans had executed several thousand
              Carpathian
              > Germans (about 2000, incl. women), plus Slovaks as well. This does
              not
              > excuse the rather indiscriminate vengeance taken by German and
              SLOVAK units
              > after the uprising, but one needs to know that the uprisers had
              committed
              > atrocities before that.
              >
              > Thomas Reimer

              Dr. Reimer,
              (Believe that is correct)

              The Carpathian Germans were a small group of Germans living in the
              territory of today's Slovakia from the 12th century to 1945,
              who suffered 'genocide'.

              This was not an atrocity performed by the Slovak people, but the work
              of Czech Communists like Eduard Benes on orders of Uncle Joe Stalin.
              Just like the euphemistic 'odsun' (transfer) and 'ethnic cleansing'
              of Germans in post-WW II Czechoslovakia.

              Just like the killing by the Communist Yugoslav secret police of the
              pro-German Croatian Army (including their women and children) which
              had surrendered to the British forces in Bleiburg, Austria in 1945.

              Just like the expulsion and execution of the Donauschwaben in
              Yugoslavia by the same Communists under Marshal Tito after WW II.

              For political reasons the British and Americans had acquiesced to
              all these events.

              In 1948, the Communists took control of the Czechoslovakia government
              due again to the politicians.
              The Czechs had voted 2 to 1 for Communism and the Slovaks voted
              2 to 1 for Democracy . Since there were more Czechs, the Communists
              won the elections and the country got 45 years of Communist rule until
              the "velvet revolution" in 1993.

              I fought in the US Army in Europe during WW II.
              My military unit had crossed the Czechoslovakia border on 2 May 45.
              WW II was over in Europe on 8 May 45.
              After the Praha Uprising, the Soviet Army entered the city on 9 May
              45.
              I still had to fight against the NKs and Chinese Communists in Korea
              (1950-1952)

              Frank K
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Gil K." <kubangil@y...>
              > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 10:41 PM
              > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Open letter to Jim Downs
              >
              >
              > Frank,
              >
              > Thanks for the details on the Slovak uprising at Banská Bystrica in
              1944.
              >
              > I had the sense from Jim's book and from other books I read that
              there were
              > a number of players and many complexities involved in Slovakia at
              the time.
              > The information you provided adds significant clarity to my
              understanding of
              > the situation.
              >
              > I appreciate your feedback.
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Gil
              >
              >
              > Frank <frankur@w...> wrote:
              > Gil,
              >
              >
              > Re: The Slovak National Uprising at Banská Bystrica 1944.
              >
              > A revolt in Slovakia from August 28 - 29 to October 27, 1944. The
              > uprising was planned by several
              > groups: the Czechoslovak Agrarian party, the right wing of the
              Social
              > Democratic party, the Communist
              > party, estranged Slovak nationalists, and a army officers. In late
              > December 1943 these groups, except
              > for the officers, set up the Slovenska Narodna Rada (Slovak National
              > Council; SNR). The primary aim of
              > the uprising was to oust the Hlinkova Slovenska Ludova Strana
              (Slovak
              > People's Party of Hlinka; HSLS)
              > from power and free the state from its dependence on Nazi Germany.
              Not
              > all the participants shared the
              > same long - term goal. Members of the Czechoslovak Communist party
              and
              > the bourgeois "Flora" group
              > (which formed around a well - known Slovak politician, Dr. Vavro
              > Srobar), aspired to a united
              > Czechoslovakia. The Slovak faction of the Communist party advocated
              > that Slovakia become a Soviet
              > republic. Whereas the Agrarian party wanted to see the emergence of
              a
              > united Czechoslovak republic,
              > but with a good deal of Slovak autonomy.
              >
              > The uprising was supposed to coincide with an advance by the
              advanced
              > against the rebels on three
              > sides and Soviet army. But in the spring of 1944, partisan activity,
              > especially under Soviet command,
              > was intense. To forestall further partisan gains, on August 28 - 29
              > the Germans invaded Slovakia and the
              > uprising began. The rebels made significant gains in the early
              > fighting. In the area they liberated, a
              > Czechoslovak Republic was declared.
              >
              > The Germans hoped to suppress the uprising quickly, but the
              opposition
              > proved strong. Late in
              > September, SS - Obergruppenfuhrer Gottlob Berger, the chief
              commander
              > of the German forces, was
              > replaced by the Hoherer SS. - und Polizeifuhrer (Higher SS and
              Police
              > Leader) SS - Obergruppenfuhrer
              > Hermann Hofle. Within a few weeks, Hofle crushed the rebellion.
              Banska
              > Bystrica, the center of the
              > uprising, fell on October 27, 1944, thus ending the organized
              > struggle. Guerrilla fighting continued in the
              > mountains until the spring. The rebellion was weakened not only by
              > internal political strife, but by Allied
              > reluctance to support it fully.
              >
              >
              > Armed underground Jewish cells existed in each of the three Slovak
              > labor camps long before the SNR
              > was established. Early in 1944 contact was established between them
              > and the SNR, and the SNR
              > included them in its strategy. For the Jews, an SNR victory could
              mean
              > the rescue of the remaining
              > Slovak community. More than 2,000 Jews fought in the uprising, 1,566
              > as partisans, and 500 fell in
              > battle. The 200 - man Novaky cell under the command of Dr. Imrich
              > Muller (Milen), fought as a separate
              > unit within the regular army; later most of the men joined the
              > partisans.
              >
              > After the failed Slovak National Uprising at Banská Bystrica in
              1944,
              > the Germans executed thousands of Slovaks (including women and
              > childen) in reprisal.
              >
              > Frank K
              >
              > > ---------------------------------
              > > Do you Yahoo!?
              > > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Sponsordocument.write('');
              > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
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              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
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              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
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