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Re: Church Latin

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  • Andrea Vangor
    Thanks very much, Andy. I can see that incolis meaning resident fits very well. The following word is probably an abbreviation for something or other.
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 6, 1999
      Thanks very much, Andy. I can see that incolis meaning resident fits very
      well. The following word is probably an abbreviation for something or
      other. Maybe, it means "resident of this parish" or neighborhood.

      But at least you have convinced me that I am reading the letters reasonably
      well. The fragment "iur" someone suggested is short for "iure" meaning
      rightfully or lawfully. That makes sense in the context where it occurs.


      Any guesses on the word "condam"?

      Andrea

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Andy Verostko <averostko@...>
      To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@onelist.com>
      Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 8:26 AM
      Subject: Re: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Church Latin


      > From: Andy Verostko <averostko@...>
      >
      >
      >
      > Andrea Vangor wrote:
      > >
      > > From: "Andrea Vangor" <drav@...>
      > >
      > > I give up! I am weary of struggling with fragments of semi-literate
      Latin
      > > in 18th century records (not complaining about having them, of course!).
      > >
      > > Anyone have a clue what "incolis poonis" means? What the fragment "iur"
      > > between a given name and surname might mean? What an "inguilinus" is?
      > >
      >
      > Incolis is a resident
      >
      > I can't guess at what poonis is or might have been
      >
      > Inquilinus is a tenant farmer
      >
      >
      > iur doesn't look at all familiar.
      >
      >
      >
      > Regards
      >
      > Andy Verostko
      >
    • J. Michutka
      ... Could it be a misspelling of quondam , once, formerly ? It would make sense if the author was used to hearing the word but not seeing it, and spelled it
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 7, 1999
        >Any guesses on the word "condam"?
        >
        >Andrea

        Could it be a misspelling of "quondam", "once, formerly"? It would make
        sense if the author was used to hearing the word but not seeing it, and
        spelled it as it sounded---except most people knew Latin by seeing it (not
        orally/aurally, that is).

        Julie Michutka, guessetrix
        jmm@...
      • Andrea Vangor
        I think that in the case of the lower Lutheran clergy, they would write a Latin word the way they remembered it from the seminary. But because their liturgy
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 7, 1999
          I think that in the case of the lower Lutheran clergy, they would write a
          Latin word the way they remembered it from the seminary. But because their
          liturgy used the vernacular, they were not steeped in Latin as were the
          Roman Catholic clergy.

          So yes, I think that one might expect a minister to scribble down a Latin
          word the way he remembered it sounding, especially one that he did not use
          often. So, what is a quondam? :-)

          Andrea, with ignorance sticking out like bristles on a porcupine

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: J. Michutka <jmm@...>
          To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@onelist.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 2:28 PM
          Subject: Re: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Church Latin


          > From: "J. Michutka" <jmm@...>
          >
          >
          >
          > >Any guesses on the word "condam"?
          > >
          > >Andrea
          >
          > Could it be a misspelling of "quondam", "once, formerly"? It would make
          > sense if the author was used to hearing the word but not seeing it, and
          > spelled it as it sounded---except most people knew Latin by seeing it (not
          > orally/aurally, that is).
          >
          > Julie Michutka, guessetrix
          > jmm@...
          >
          > >
        • JArcher360@xxx.xxx
          In some of these communications, there was a mention of a man s adopting a surname of a woman, her maiden name, etc. I can remember some old man telling me
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 8, 1999
            In some of these communications, there was a mention of a man's adopting a
            surname of a woman, her maiden name, etc. I can remember some old man
            telling me why that was so, but, I was young, and didn't think I would ever
            really use that information. Perhaps someone else paid attention and knows
            why that practice was in use? Caroline
          • Andrea Vangor
            Have you considered hypnosis? :-) I remember asking my great-aunt what happened to my great-grandmother s two husbands, and that she promptly told me, but I
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 8, 1999
              Have you considered hypnosis? :-) I remember asking my great-aunt what
              happened to my great-grandmother's two husbands, and that she promptly told
              me, but I completely forgot what she said. She died shortly thereafter.

              You are getting very sleeeeeeeepy........




              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <JArcher360@...>
              To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@onelist.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 6:37 PM
              Subject: Re: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Church Latin


              > From: JArcher360@...
              >
              > In some of these communications, there was a mention of a man's adopting a
              > surname of a woman, her maiden name, etc. I can remember some old man
              > telling me why that was so, but, I was young, and didn't think I would
              ever
              > really use that information. Perhaps someone else paid attention and knows
              > why that practice was in use? Caroline
              >
              > >
            • J. Michutka
              ... From a book on Czechoslovak genealogy (I think), there was a mention of the husband taking the wife s family name if he(they) got the wife s family farm.
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 9, 1999
                At 09:37 PM 12/8/99 EST, you wrote:
                >From: JArcher360@...
                >
                >In some of these communications, there was a mention of a man's adopting a
                >surname of a woman, her maiden name, etc. I can remember some old man
                >telling me why that was so, but, I was young, and didn't think I would ever
                >really use that information. Perhaps someone else paid attention and knows
                >why that practice was in use? Caroline

                From a book on Czechoslovak genealogy (I think), there was a mention of the
                husband taking the wife's family name if he(they) got the wife's family
                farm. A variation on this seems to have happened in my own ancestry: male
                Pavlik married female Fiuri; from various records (mostly baptismal records
                for a couple of generations), it looks like this couple took on the Fiuri
                family farm/business (address was given in the records). And the family
                last name became Fiuri Pavlik, sometimes Pavlik Fiuri, for a couple of
                generations. There were TONS of Pavliks in this small town, and at least
                two other branches did a double last name; I didn't track their addresses
                to see if it was another instance of property going to the son-in-law, or
                just a way of keeping all those Pavlik families straight.

                I think there was an instance in the descendents of a Jewish rabbi where he
                had no sons, one of his sons-in-law followed in father-in-law's footsteps,
                and took his father-in-law's family name as well.

                Hope this helps.

                Julie Michutka
                jmm@...
              • RAHannig00@xxx.xxx
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 9, 1999
                  << From a book on Czechoslovak genealogy (I think), there was a mention of the
                  husband taking the wife's family name if he(they) got the wife's family
                  farm. >>
                  Just to add my two cents, this is probably correct; I know this was also a
                  custom in Italy and perhaps it was widespread. I also know in Italy
                  sometimes a wife's maiden name was added before or after the man's just
                  because the man's surname was so common, it was a way to distiguish who his
                  descendents were. I know that my Slovak grandmother-in-law's surname was
                  Sebej Koval, and the family lore is that Sebej was added because Koval was so
                  common - perhaps a Koval married a Sebej somewhere along the line.
                  Robin Hannig
                • Ron Matviyak
                  Yes, I have heard the same. The woman s family name would be adapted if the woman s family was much better off than the mans family; if the woman s family
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 9, 1999
                    Yes, I have heard the same. The woman's family name would be adapted if
                    the woman's family was much better off than the mans family; if the
                    woman's family name was in danger of dying off; or as you say, if the
                    name was too common they might modify the name adapting the womans name
                    in fromt or bakc. In part of my family I belong to the Pavel Valyo's to
                    seaparate us from the other Valyo's. Ironically there is only one old
                    nasty man in the village with that name today!

                    Ron



                    J. Michutka wrote:
                    >
                    > From: "J. Michutka" <jmm@...>
                    >
                    > At 09:37 PM 12/8/99 EST, you wrote:
                    > >From: JArcher360@...
                    > >
                    > >In some of these communications, there was a mention of a man's adopting a
                    > >surname of a woman, her maiden name, etc. I can remember some old man
                    > >telling me why that was so, but, I was young, and didn't think I would ever
                    > >really use that information. Perhaps someone else paid attention and knows
                    > >why that practice was in use? Caroline
                    >
                    > >From a book on Czechoslovak genealogy (I think), there was a mention of the
                    > husband taking the wife's family name if he(they) got the wife's family
                    > farm. A variation on this seems to have happened in my own ancestry: male
                    > Pavlik married female Fiuri; from various records (mostly baptismal records
                    > for a couple of generations), it looks like this couple took on the Fiuri
                    > family farm/business (address was given in the records). And the family
                    > last name became Fiuri Pavlik, sometimes Pavlik Fiuri, for a couple of
                    > generations. There were TONS of Pavliks in this small town, and at least
                    > two other branches did a double last name; I didn't track their addresses
                    > to see if it was another instance of property going to the son-in-law, or
                    > just a way of keeping all those Pavlik families straight.
                    >
                    > I think there was an instance in the descendents of a Jewish rabbi where he
                    > had no sons, one of his sons-in-law followed in father-in-law's footsteps,
                    > and took his father-in-law's family name as well.
                    >
                    > Hope this helps.
                    >
                    > Julie Michutka
                    > jmm@...
                    >
                    >
                  • Andrea Vangor
                    It looks like I have two sisters marrying different men, of course, and in both families the surname changed to the wife s maiden name. When I finish
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 9, 1999
                      It looks like I have two sisters marrying different men, of course, and in
                      both families the surname changed to the wife's maiden name. When I finish
                      researching this, I may understand more -- but there is a hint that the
                      sisters' brother, whose name was written John (rightly) Doe, might have been
                      adopted or otherwise not qualified for full inheritance of the parent's
                      property.

                      Andrea

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: <RAHannig00@...>
                      To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@onelist.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 4:51 AM
                      Subject: Re: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Church Latin


                      > From: RAHannig00@...
                      >
                      > << From a book on Czechoslovak genealogy (I think), there was a mention of
                      the
                      > husband taking the wife's family name if he(they) got the wife's family
                      > farm. >>
                      > Just to add my two cents, this is probably correct; I know this was also
                      a
                      > custom in Italy and perhaps it was widespread. I also know in Italy
                      > sometimes a wife's maiden name was added before or after the man's just
                      > because the man's surname was so common, it was a way to distiguish who
                      his
                      > descendents were. I know that my Slovak grandmother-in-law's surname was
                      > Sebej Koval, and the family lore is that Sebej was added because Koval was
                      so
                      > common - perhaps a Koval married a Sebej somewhere along the line.
                      > Robin Hannig
                      >
                      > >
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