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Re: Church Latin

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  • Ron Matviyak
    Sorry
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 6, 1999
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      Sorry< I should have been more complete in my initial answer. That one
      word came from a list of Latin words in the book quoted. I also checked
      the companion Hungarian list and found nothing more.

      Ron

      Andrea Vangor wrote:
      >
      > From: "Andrea Vangor" <drav@...>
      >
      > The phrase occurs repeatedly, like a formula. I will copy a typical example
      > and post later. It did not look much like Latin to me either but the
      > records are in Latin at this time frame and it does not look like anything
      > else either... as I said, I suspect that the minister, writing a formulaic
      > entry, resorted to abbreviations. The inquilinus theory sounds very good to
      > me. Both of these phrases occur after people's names are given, as
      > descriptions of their state of life.
      >
      > These words may make more sense after I go through the Roman Catholic
      > records for the same district and time period -- maybe the priest was more
      > careful with his Latin!
      >
      > But thanks much for helping.
      >
      > Andrea
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Judy (and Dr. Joe ) Quashnock <judyq@...>
      > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@onelist.com>
      > Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 1:22 AM
      > Subject: Re: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Church Latin
      >
      > > From: "Judy \(and Dr. Joe \) Quashnock" <judyq@...>
      > >
      > > Dear Andrea,
      > >
      > > Ron has a good point, is it really Latin?
      > >
      > > I have a modicum of Latin education, but I am not familiar with a Latin
      > word
      > > with doubled vowels as in "poonis". I am interested in the outcome of
      > your
      > > inquiry and ask where you found the citation?
      > >
      > > Dr. "Q"
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "Ron Matviyak" <amiak@...>
      > >
      > > > >From 'Handy Guide to Hungarian Records' by Jared Suess:
      > > > p.77 inquilinus = house resident, renter, inhabitant
      > > >
      > > > None of the others are listed. I have one other reference that may have
      > > > something.. will look tomorrow if no one beats me to it!
      > > >
      > > > Ron
      > > >
      > > > Andrea Vangor wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > From: "Andrea Vangor" <drav@...>
      > > > >
      > > > > I give up! I am weary of struggling with fragments of semi-literate
      > > Latin
      > > > > in 18th century records (not complaining about having them, of
      > course!).
      > > > >
      > > > > Anyone have a clue what "incolis poonis" means? What the fragment
      > "iur"
      > > > > between a given name and surname might mean? What an "inguilinus" is?
      >
      > > > >
      > > > > Andrea
      > >
      > > >
      >
      >
    • Andy Verostko
      ... Incolis is a resident I can t guess at what poonis is or might have been Inquilinus is a tenant farmer iur doesn t look at all familiar. Regards Andy
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 6, 1999
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        Andrea Vangor wrote:
        >
        > From: "Andrea Vangor" <drav@...>
        >
        > I give up! I am weary of struggling with fragments of semi-literate Latin
        > in 18th century records (not complaining about having them, of course!).
        >
        > Anyone have a clue what "incolis poonis" means? What the fragment "iur"
        > between a given name and surname might mean? What an "inguilinus" is?
        >

        Incolis is a resident

        I can't guess at what poonis is or might have been

        Inquilinus is a tenant farmer


        iur doesn't look at all familiar.



        Regards

        Andy Verostko

        averostko@...

        http://www.bealenet.com/~averostko
      • J. Michutka
        ... iur abbr. of iure? which would be rightfully, justly . Or could it be a mis-reading of vir (man, in it s most basic meaning; also used in classical
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 6, 1999
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          >Incolis is a resident
          >
          >I can't guess at what poonis is or might have been
          >
          >Inquilinus is a tenant farmer
          >
          >
          >iur doesn't look at all familiar.


          iur abbr. of iure? which would be "rightfully, justly". Or could it be a
          mis-reading of "vir" (man, in it's most basic meaning; also used in
          classical Latin for "husband"; in my Slovak records some men are noted as
          "oeconomus vir").

          The ending on incolis is unexpected (I'd expect nominative singular
          "incola" if it's a label; this is ablative or dative plural, is it part of
          a phrase?), but it does mean resident; poonis must be sloppy writing for
          something else; could it possibly be "promus" (or promis), which is the
          word for steward or butler in my dictionary (but to be honest, I've never
          seen it used in classical Latin).

          Good luck!

          Julie Michutka
          jmm@...
        • Andrea Vangor
          Dear Julie, I think you have really hit something with your translation/correction of iur . I found the fragment in a name, identifying John Doe as the son
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 6, 1999
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            Dear Julie,

            I think you have really hit something with your translation/correction of
            "iur". I found the fragment in a name, identifying John Doe as the son of
            "Joe iur Doe". Now the interesting thing about Joe Doe is that his sisters
            must have inherited a large share of the family property because their
            children end up adopting the maiden name (my surname, actually). When I
            found a man who seems to be their brother, I had to wonder if there was
            something odd about his situation that would have affected his inheritance
            rights. For example, was he an adopted or step-son of Joe Doe senior. Joe
            and his sisters were born before the records were kept, alas.

            This little fragment could well mean that Joe's status as a bona fide Doe
            needed some clarification by the time his son was married.

            I think that the Lutheran ministers who wrote these records were inclined to
            abbreviate and occasionally misspell Latin words -- one even forgot to write
            down the bride's given name in a marriage record!


            > iur abbr. of iure? which would be "rightfully, justly".

            > The ending on incolis is unexpected (I'd expect nominative singular
            > "incola" if it's a label; this is ablative or dative plural, is it part of
            > a phrase?), but it does mean resident;

            What matters here, I think, is the particular meaning the word had in this
            context. If it is used instead of another word meaning farmer, or property
            owner, than I think it means tenant more than resident. I believe that the
            context concerns the status of a baby's father, so the distinction between a
            peasant owning property and a tenant farmer was significant.


            poonis must be sloppy writing for
            > something else; could it possibly be "promus" (or promis), which is the
            > word for steward or butler in my dictionary (but to be honest, I've never
            > seen it used in classical Latin).

            Well, it comes after "incolis" -- I think it refers to the condition of the
            bridegroom's father, as a peasant or serf attached to some estate or
            village, because these are early 19th century records. I will look more
            carefully on my next visit to the FHC and try to find it written by the
            clearest hand,,, or the sloppy hand on a good day!
          • Joe Armata
            To add a bit about inquilinus, it s a term from the feudal days referring to someone who had no cropland - meaning no large tracts of land to grow grain. He
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 6, 1999
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              To add a bit about inquilinus, it's a term from the feudal days
              referring to someone who had no cropland - meaning no large tracts of
              land to grow grain. He might have a small vegetable garden near his
              house, he might not have that and only own his house, and he might
              not even have a house, but live in someone else's home. He was the
              lower end of the village stratum - at the other end is the cmethonis,
              someone with a full allotment of land (which gave us the words and
              surnames kmet, kmiec), and one step below the cmethonis was the
              hortulans, who had a half allotment of land. After the end of
              feudalism the terms survived for a while longer, sometimes taking on
              looser meanings in different places.

              I agree about iur, that it might be short for jure, meaning rightly,
              properly, and referring to the person's legally correct last name (you
              also see "recte" used in that meaning, to show the correct surname as
              opposed to the local nickname). Don't know for sure though.

              Don't know about that poo word though! Is there a nearby village
              with a name that might look like that? Maybe the person was a
              resident of that village.

              Joe Armata
              joe@...
            • aantoska@xxxxx.xxx
              Ahoj Andrea, Could your poonis as in incolis poonis be an abbreviation of impoenitens - impenitent; viewed as a public sinner, or refusal of last rites?
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 6, 1999
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                Ahoj Andrea,

                Could your "poonis" as in "incolis poonis" be an abbreviation of

                "impoenitens" - impenitent; viewed as a public sinner, or refusal of last rites? Just a thought.
              • Andrea Vangor
                Thanks very much, Andy. I can see that incolis meaning resident fits very well. The following word is probably an abbreviation for something or other.
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 6, 1999
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                  Thanks very much, Andy. I can see that incolis meaning resident fits very
                  well. The following word is probably an abbreviation for something or
                  other. Maybe, it means "resident of this parish" or neighborhood.

                  But at least you have convinced me that I am reading the letters reasonably
                  well. The fragment "iur" someone suggested is short for "iure" meaning
                  rightfully or lawfully. That makes sense in the context where it occurs.


                  Any guesses on the word "condam"?

                  Andrea

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Andy Verostko <averostko@...>
                  To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@onelist.com>
                  Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 8:26 AM
                  Subject: Re: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Church Latin


                  > From: Andy Verostko <averostko@...>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Andrea Vangor wrote:
                  > >
                  > > From: "Andrea Vangor" <drav@...>
                  > >
                  > > I give up! I am weary of struggling with fragments of semi-literate
                  Latin
                  > > in 18th century records (not complaining about having them, of course!).
                  > >
                  > > Anyone have a clue what "incolis poonis" means? What the fragment "iur"
                  > > between a given name and surname might mean? What an "inguilinus" is?
                  > >
                  >
                  > Incolis is a resident
                  >
                  > I can't guess at what poonis is or might have been
                  >
                  > Inquilinus is a tenant farmer
                  >
                  >
                  > iur doesn't look at all familiar.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Regards
                  >
                  > Andy Verostko
                  >
                • J. Michutka
                  ... Could it be a misspelling of quondam , once, formerly ? It would make sense if the author was used to hearing the word but not seeing it, and spelled it
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 7, 1999
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                    >Any guesses on the word "condam"?
                    >
                    >Andrea

                    Could it be a misspelling of "quondam", "once, formerly"? It would make
                    sense if the author was used to hearing the word but not seeing it, and
                    spelled it as it sounded---except most people knew Latin by seeing it (not
                    orally/aurally, that is).

                    Julie Michutka, guessetrix
                    jmm@...
                  • Andrea Vangor
                    I think that in the case of the lower Lutheran clergy, they would write a Latin word the way they remembered it from the seminary. But because their liturgy
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 7, 1999
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                      I think that in the case of the lower Lutheran clergy, they would write a
                      Latin word the way they remembered it from the seminary. But because their
                      liturgy used the vernacular, they were not steeped in Latin as were the
                      Roman Catholic clergy.

                      So yes, I think that one might expect a minister to scribble down a Latin
                      word the way he remembered it sounding, especially one that he did not use
                      often. So, what is a quondam? :-)

                      Andrea, with ignorance sticking out like bristles on a porcupine

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: J. Michutka <jmm@...>
                      To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@onelist.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 2:28 PM
                      Subject: Re: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Church Latin


                      > From: "J. Michutka" <jmm@...>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > >Any guesses on the word "condam"?
                      > >
                      > >Andrea
                      >
                      > Could it be a misspelling of "quondam", "once, formerly"? It would make
                      > sense if the author was used to hearing the word but not seeing it, and
                      > spelled it as it sounded---except most people knew Latin by seeing it (not
                      > orally/aurally, that is).
                      >
                      > Julie Michutka, guessetrix
                      > jmm@...
                      >
                      > >
                    • JArcher360@xxx.xxx
                      In some of these communications, there was a mention of a man s adopting a surname of a woman, her maiden name, etc. I can remember some old man telling me
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 8, 1999
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                        In some of these communications, there was a mention of a man's adopting a
                        surname of a woman, her maiden name, etc. I can remember some old man
                        telling me why that was so, but, I was young, and didn't think I would ever
                        really use that information. Perhaps someone else paid attention and knows
                        why that practice was in use? Caroline
                      • Andrea Vangor
                        Have you considered hypnosis? :-) I remember asking my great-aunt what happened to my great-grandmother s two husbands, and that she promptly told me, but I
                        Message 11 of 19 , Dec 8, 1999
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                          Have you considered hypnosis? :-) I remember asking my great-aunt what
                          happened to my great-grandmother's two husbands, and that she promptly told
                          me, but I completely forgot what she said. She died shortly thereafter.

                          You are getting very sleeeeeeeepy........




                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: <JArcher360@...>
                          To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@onelist.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 6:37 PM
                          Subject: Re: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Church Latin


                          > From: JArcher360@...
                          >
                          > In some of these communications, there was a mention of a man's adopting a
                          > surname of a woman, her maiden name, etc. I can remember some old man
                          > telling me why that was so, but, I was young, and didn't think I would
                          ever
                          > really use that information. Perhaps someone else paid attention and knows
                          > why that practice was in use? Caroline
                          >
                          > >
                        • J. Michutka
                          ... From a book on Czechoslovak genealogy (I think), there was a mention of the husband taking the wife s family name if he(they) got the wife s family farm.
                          Message 12 of 19 , Dec 9, 1999
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                            At 09:37 PM 12/8/99 EST, you wrote:
                            >From: JArcher360@...
                            >
                            >In some of these communications, there was a mention of a man's adopting a
                            >surname of a woman, her maiden name, etc. I can remember some old man
                            >telling me why that was so, but, I was young, and didn't think I would ever
                            >really use that information. Perhaps someone else paid attention and knows
                            >why that practice was in use? Caroline

                            From a book on Czechoslovak genealogy (I think), there was a mention of the
                            husband taking the wife's family name if he(they) got the wife's family
                            farm. A variation on this seems to have happened in my own ancestry: male
                            Pavlik married female Fiuri; from various records (mostly baptismal records
                            for a couple of generations), it looks like this couple took on the Fiuri
                            family farm/business (address was given in the records). And the family
                            last name became Fiuri Pavlik, sometimes Pavlik Fiuri, for a couple of
                            generations. There were TONS of Pavliks in this small town, and at least
                            two other branches did a double last name; I didn't track their addresses
                            to see if it was another instance of property going to the son-in-law, or
                            just a way of keeping all those Pavlik families straight.

                            I think there was an instance in the descendents of a Jewish rabbi where he
                            had no sons, one of his sons-in-law followed in father-in-law's footsteps,
                            and took his father-in-law's family name as well.

                            Hope this helps.

                            Julie Michutka
                            jmm@...
                          • RAHannig00@xxx.xxx
                            Message 13 of 19 , Dec 9, 1999
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                              << From a book on Czechoslovak genealogy (I think), there was a mention of the
                              husband taking the wife's family name if he(they) got the wife's family
                              farm. >>
                              Just to add my two cents, this is probably correct; I know this was also a
                              custom in Italy and perhaps it was widespread. I also know in Italy
                              sometimes a wife's maiden name was added before or after the man's just
                              because the man's surname was so common, it was a way to distiguish who his
                              descendents were. I know that my Slovak grandmother-in-law's surname was
                              Sebej Koval, and the family lore is that Sebej was added because Koval was so
                              common - perhaps a Koval married a Sebej somewhere along the line.
                              Robin Hannig
                            • Ron Matviyak
                              Yes, I have heard the same. The woman s family name would be adapted if the woman s family was much better off than the mans family; if the woman s family
                              Message 14 of 19 , Dec 9, 1999
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                                Yes, I have heard the same. The woman's family name would be adapted if
                                the woman's family was much better off than the mans family; if the
                                woman's family name was in danger of dying off; or as you say, if the
                                name was too common they might modify the name adapting the womans name
                                in fromt or bakc. In part of my family I belong to the Pavel Valyo's to
                                seaparate us from the other Valyo's. Ironically there is only one old
                                nasty man in the village with that name today!

                                Ron



                                J. Michutka wrote:
                                >
                                > From: "J. Michutka" <jmm@...>
                                >
                                > At 09:37 PM 12/8/99 EST, you wrote:
                                > >From: JArcher360@...
                                > >
                                > >In some of these communications, there was a mention of a man's adopting a
                                > >surname of a woman, her maiden name, etc. I can remember some old man
                                > >telling me why that was so, but, I was young, and didn't think I would ever
                                > >really use that information. Perhaps someone else paid attention and knows
                                > >why that practice was in use? Caroline
                                >
                                > >From a book on Czechoslovak genealogy (I think), there was a mention of the
                                > husband taking the wife's family name if he(they) got the wife's family
                                > farm. A variation on this seems to have happened in my own ancestry: male
                                > Pavlik married female Fiuri; from various records (mostly baptismal records
                                > for a couple of generations), it looks like this couple took on the Fiuri
                                > family farm/business (address was given in the records). And the family
                                > last name became Fiuri Pavlik, sometimes Pavlik Fiuri, for a couple of
                                > generations. There were TONS of Pavliks in this small town, and at least
                                > two other branches did a double last name; I didn't track their addresses
                                > to see if it was another instance of property going to the son-in-law, or
                                > just a way of keeping all those Pavlik families straight.
                                >
                                > I think there was an instance in the descendents of a Jewish rabbi where he
                                > had no sons, one of his sons-in-law followed in father-in-law's footsteps,
                                > and took his father-in-law's family name as well.
                                >
                                > Hope this helps.
                                >
                                > Julie Michutka
                                > jmm@...
                                >
                                >
                              • Andrea Vangor
                                It looks like I have two sisters marrying different men, of course, and in both families the surname changed to the wife s maiden name. When I finish
                                Message 15 of 19 , Dec 9, 1999
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                                  It looks like I have two sisters marrying different men, of course, and in
                                  both families the surname changed to the wife's maiden name. When I finish
                                  researching this, I may understand more -- but there is a hint that the
                                  sisters' brother, whose name was written John (rightly) Doe, might have been
                                  adopted or otherwise not qualified for full inheritance of the parent's
                                  property.

                                  Andrea

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: <RAHannig00@...>
                                  To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@onelist.com>
                                  Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 4:51 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Church Latin


                                  > From: RAHannig00@...
                                  >
                                  > << From a book on Czechoslovak genealogy (I think), there was a mention of
                                  the
                                  > husband taking the wife's family name if he(they) got the wife's family
                                  > farm. >>
                                  > Just to add my two cents, this is probably correct; I know this was also
                                  a
                                  > custom in Italy and perhaps it was widespread. I also know in Italy
                                  > sometimes a wife's maiden name was added before or after the man's just
                                  > because the man's surname was so common, it was a way to distiguish who
                                  his
                                  > descendents were. I know that my Slovak grandmother-in-law's surname was
                                  > Sebej Koval, and the family lore is that Sebej was added because Koval was
                                  so
                                  > common - perhaps a Koval married a Sebej somewhere along the line.
                                  > Robin Hannig
                                  >
                                  > >
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