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Re: [S-R] naming traditions

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  • Ron Matviyak
    Noreen, There is some chance you are reading too much German into the language that your grandmother used. There was quite a bit of cross-cultural exchange,
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 4, 2002
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      Noreen,

      There is some chance you are reading too much German into the language that
      your grandmother used. There was quite a bit of cross-cultural exchange,
      both with and without 'mixed marriages. I have been pleasantly surprised
      how much a command of German helps me get around in the Slavic countries.
      In addition to that there was a lot of word exchange, and it remains today
      as well! It has not died out. A few years ago we were visiting and at the
      end of the evening the father of one of the families stood up and said "Gehe
      'ma?" in perfect Hessian German, with precisely the same meaning: "Gehen
      wir?" or "Shall we go?" There are several other common words I run across
      in common usage but can't think of at the moment. Perhaps 'bramboury'
      'potato' and 'erdepple' are another example - earth apple in German. My
      spelling here is certainly fanciful, but the message is there.

      Now I have never heard "mutarde (pronounced Moo Tar De)" for mustard in
      Germany, where it is "Senf" - however, that leaves about 9,994 dialects of
      German that have not been eliminated by me personally! So it could be so,
      somewhere.

      The German were in the Spis/Zips since the 1300's, so there was plenty of
      time for cross-fertilization of cultures. In the Sulin cemetery there are
      markers in Slovak, Rusyn (Cyrillic) and German.

      Good luck and keep an open mind until you do get it locked down! You could
      have some sauer Kraut mixed in with that sweet Slovak after all!

      Ron

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <nhasior@...>
      To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 2:20 PM
      Subject: Re: [S-R] naming traditions


      > Caye,
      > my maternal grandmother was from Spis. yet in many ways she was German
      and
      > Hungarian and i wonder if she did not at some point belong to Orthodox
      > tradition. my grandmother is still a mystery to me and if only i could
      find
      > her mother, i may be on to where her three children (Mary, Anna and
      Stephen,
      > of course) were born. she spoke much German at home and mustard was
      called
      > mutarde (pronounced Moo Tar De), which is German . my mother learned
      these
      > phrases and always told us to Gie Schloffen, (spelled wrong i am sure) but
      > she meant very clearly for us to "go to sleep" i realize now that this is
      > German, but she was entirely Slovak in all her recipies. my mother was
      100%
      > Slovak in all other traditions except for language. she played Gypsy
      > campfire music and opera all day sunday. it has me stumped. so the
      naming
      > traditions are a big help in sticking with the Slovak direction.
      > thanks,
      > Noreen
      >
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      >
      >
    • Caye Caswick
      My mother used to say that my gram could speak to all the neighbors, Hungarian, Czech, Slovak, Russian (which I now know she meant Rusyn, but never could
      Message 2 of 13 , Nov 5, 2002
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        My mother used to say that my gram could speak to all the neighbors, Hungarian, Czech, Slovak, Russian (which I now know she meant Rusyn, but never could distinguish herself, as her father was from Kiev -- so he was Russian) -- although I'm not so sure about the German -- although the folks they rented from -- the wive's maiden name was Madar -- which to me sounds German, so who knows, she might have known a little German too -- remember Yiddish is based wholly on German -- so it's not such a stretch.


        Caye

        nhasior@... wrote:Caye,
        my maternal grandmother was from Spis. yet in many ways she was German and
        Hungarian and i wonder if she did not at some point belong to Orthodox
        tradition. my grandmother is still a mystery to me and if only i could find
        her mother, i may be on to where her three children (Mary, Anna and Stephen,
        of course) were born. she spoke much German at home and mustard was called
        mutarde (pronounced Moo Tar De), which is German . my mother learned these
        phrases and always told us to Gie Schloffen, (spelled wrong i am sure) but
        she meant very clearly for us to "go to sleep" i realize now that this is
        German, but she was entirely Slovak in all her recipies. my mother was 100%
        Slovak in all other traditions except for language. she played Gypsy
        campfire music and opera all day sunday. it has me stumped. so the naming
        traditions are a big help in sticking with the Slovak direction.
        thanks,
        Noreen

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      • John M,
        ... Madar might also be a variation on Magyar or Mad ar (pronounced Madyar) which means Hungarian. Janko
        Message 3 of 13 , Nov 5, 2002
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          At 07:02 AM 11/5/2002 -0800, you wrote:
          >ure about the German -- although the folks they rented from -- the wive's
          >maiden name was Madar -- which to me sounds German, so who knows, she
          >might have known a little German too -- remember Yiddish is based wholly
          >on German -- so it's not such a stretch.

          Madar might also be a variation on Magyar or Mad'ar (pronounced Madyar)
          which means Hungarian.

          Janko
        • Caye Caswick
          See, I might never know -- but I won t stop trying -- just not stabbing the beast very enthusiastically. Thanks Janko. Caye ... Madar might also be a
          Message 4 of 13 , Nov 5, 2002
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            See, I might never know -- but I won't stop trying -- just not stabbing the beast very enthusiastically. Thanks Janko.

            Caye

            "John M," <jmatsko4@...> wrote:At 07:02 AM 11/5/2002 -0800, you wrote:
            >ure about the German -- although the folks they rented from -- the wive's
            >maiden name was Madar -- which to me sounds German, so who knows, she
            >might have known a little German too -- remember Yiddish is based wholly
            >on German -- so it's not such a stretch.

            Madar might also be a variation on Magyar or Mad'ar (pronounced Madyar)
            which means Hungarian.

            Janko



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          • Frank
            ... German and ... Orthodox ... could find ... Stephen, ... called ... learned these ... sure) but ... this is ... was 100% ... Gypsy ... the naming ... Noreen
            Message 5 of 13 , Nov 5, 2002
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              --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@y..., nhasior@a... wrote:
              > Caye,
              > my maternal grandmother was from Spis. yet in many ways she was
              German and
              > Hungarian and i wonder if she did not at some point belong to
              Orthodox
              > tradition. my grandmother is still a mystery to me and if only i
              could find
              > her mother, i may be on to where her three children (Mary, Anna and
              Stephen,
              > of course) were born. she spoke much German at home and mustard was
              called
              > mutarde (pronounced Moo Tar De), which is German . my mother
              learned these
              > phrases and always told us to Gie Schloffen, (spelled wrong i am
              sure) but
              > she meant very clearly for us to "go to sleep" i realize now that
              this is
              > German, but she was entirely Slovak in all her recipies. my mother
              was 100%
              > Slovak in all other traditions except for language. she played
              Gypsy
              > campfire music and opera all day sunday. it has me stumped. so
              the naming
              > traditions are a big help in sticking with the Slovak direction.
              > thanks,
              > Noreen

              Noreen

              I lived in Germany for five years and was in France in 1944.
              Would expect moutarde was mustard in French and der Senf in German.
              (Mustár in Hungarian and horc^ica in Slovak)

              Gehen Sie zu Schlafen (Go to sleep !) in German.


              It was highly likely your GM was German and was from Spis^ z^upa.
              Where in Szepes megye H) Spis^ z^upa (Sk) Zips (G) ?
              What was her surname and religion ?

              http://www.feefhs.org/frl/czs/dg-gps.html
              http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ESE/slovak.html
            • nhasior@aol.com
              Frank, thanks for the information. My grandother s father s name was Mucha and sometimes spelled Muha with the omlats on the u. her mother s name was Jankura.
              Message 6 of 13 , Nov 5, 2002
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                Frank,
                thanks for the information.
                My grandother's father's name was Mucha and sometimes spelled Muha with the
                omlats on the u.
                her mother's name was Jankura.
              • Frank
                ... with the ... The surnames Muha and Mucha are found in Sloavkia and elsewhere. The German telephone white pages list 250+ surnames Muha and 250+ surnames
                Message 7 of 13 , Nov 6, 2002
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                  --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@y..., nhasior@a... wrote:
                  > Frank,
                  > thanks for the information.
                  > My grandother's father's name was Mucha and sometimes spelled Muha
                  with the
                  > omlats on the u.
                  > her mother's name was Jankura.

                  The surnames Muha and Mucha are found in Sloavkia and elsewhere.

                  The German telephone white pages list 250+ surnames Muha and 250+
                  surnames Mucha.

                  Ellis Island Records (EIR) 1892-1924 list 109 surname Muha who
                  emigrated to the U.S. from Europe via Ellis Island (NYC)
                  EIR also list 1048 surnames Mucha who emigrated to the U.S. from
                  Europe via Ellis Island (NYC)
                  From childhood Slovak (English was my third language) I remember that
                  mucha means a fly (a winged insect)

                  The online Slovakia telephone directory lists 3 surnames Mucha under
                  Stará L'ubovn^a, 3 under Kez^marok, and 10 under Spis^ská Nová Ves.
                  The directory also lists 2 surnames Jankura under Stará L'ubovn^a, 7
                  under Kez^marok, 2 under Presov^, and 6 under Kos^ice.

                  Many surnames Mucha emigrated from Poland (Mucha also means a fly in
                  Polish)

                  What about the German villages in the Spis^ region of Slovakia ?
                  Interesting region.
                  Germans, Slovaks, Rusyns, Croatians, Hungarians, and Poles.
                  Don't know which group settled here first in 12th, 14th, and 16th
                  centuries.

                  Not all people in East Central Europe who later spoke German
                  owed their heritage to German settlers. Many were descendants of
                  Germanized Slavs and in some cases Magyars whose ancestors had
                  intermarried with neighbors of Germanic origin.

                  Among the earliest German colonies were those begun in the late
                  12th c in Transylvania and in the mountainous area of Spis^/Zips/
                  Szepes county in northern Hungary near the towns of Levoc^a (Sv)/
                  Leutschau (G) and Kez^marok (Sk)/Késmárk (H)/Käsmarkt(G)
                  The Spis^ enclave was expanded through special privileges granted in
                  1224 and 1271.
                  It was at this time that the "Saxons" (actually not from Saxony but
                  from the Rhineland) came in large numbers.
                  It was during the 13th c that organized efforts were undertaken to
                  settle Carpathian Rus' with East Slavic farmers and shepherds from
                  neighboring Galicija (Poland)

                  Early in 15th c the 16 towns in the northen Spis^ region of central
                  Slovakia (including Stará L'ubovn^a and L'ubica)- near to but not
                  including the royal Saxon towns of Käsmark and Leutschau - were sold
                  to Poland, under whose rule they remained 1412-1772.
                • Ron Matviyak
                  Of course don t forget the most famous Mucha, the Czech artist Alphons Mucha of art nouveau fame. I believe I read where his name Mucha = Fly. to start, check
                  Message 8 of 13 , Nov 6, 2002
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                    Of course don't forget the most famous Mucha, the Czech artist Alphons Mucha
                    of art nouveau fame. I believe I read where his name Mucha = Fly.

                    to start, check out
                    http://www.mucha.cz/index.phtml?S=home&Lang=EN

                    Ron



                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Frank <frankur@...>
                    To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 10:33 AM
                    Subject: Re: [S-R] naming traditions


                    --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@y..., nhasior@a... wrote:
                    > Frank,
                    > thanks for the information.
                    > My grandother's father's name was Mucha and sometimes spelled Muha
                    with the
                    > omlats on the u.
                    > her mother's name was Jankura.

                    The surnames Muha and Mucha are found in Sloavkia and elsewhere.

                    The German telephone white pages list 250+ surnames Muha and 250+
                    surnames Mucha.

                    Ellis Island Records (EIR) 1892-1924 list 109 surname Muha who
                    emigrated to the U.S. from Europe via Ellis Island (NYC)
                    EIR also list 1048 surnames Mucha who emigrated to the U.S. from
                    Europe via Ellis Island (NYC)
                    From childhood Slovak (English was my third language) I remember that
                    mucha means a fly (a winged insect)

                    The online Slovakia telephone directory lists 3 surnames Mucha under
                    Stará L'ubovn^a, 3 under Kez^marok, and 10 under Spis^ská Nová Ves.
                    The directory also lists 2 surnames Jankura under Stará L'ubovn^a, 7
                    under Kez^marok, 2 under Presov^, and 6 under Kos^ice.

                    Many surnames Mucha emigrated from Poland (Mucha also means a fly in
                    Polish)

                    What about the German villages in the Spis^ region of Slovakia ?
                    Interesting region.
                    Germans, Slovaks, Rusyns, Croatians, Hungarians, and Poles.
                    Don't know which group settled here first in 12th, 14th, and 16th
                    centuries.

                    Not all people in East Central Europe who later spoke German
                    owed their heritage to German settlers. Many were descendants of
                    Germanized Slavs and in some cases Magyars whose ancestors had
                    intermarried with neighbors of Germanic origin.

                    Among the earliest German colonies were those begun in the late
                    12th c in Transylvania and in the mountainous area of Spis^/Zips/
                    Szepes county in northern Hungary near the towns of Levoc^a (Sv)/
                    Leutschau (G) and Kez^marok (Sk)/Késmárk (H)/Käsmarkt(G)
                    The Spis^ enclave was expanded through special privileges granted in
                    1224 and 1271.
                    It was at this time that the "Saxons" (actually not from Saxony but
                    from the Rhineland) came in large numbers.
                    It was during the 13th c that organized efforts were undertaken to
                    settle Carpathian Rus' with East Slavic farmers and shepherds from
                    neighboring Galicija (Poland)

                    Early in 15th c the 16 towns in the northen Spis^ region of central
                    Slovakia (including Stará L'ubovn^a and L'ubica)- near to but not
                    including the royal Saxon towns of Käsmark and Leutschau - were sold
                    to Poland, under whose rule they remained 1412-1772.



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                    http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                    SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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                  • nhasior@aol.com
                    Thanks Ron for the website on Mucha. my aunt sent me pictures of the pipeline and a highway after the earthquake. i am glad that you were not hurt Noreen
                    Message 9 of 13 , Nov 8, 2002
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                      Thanks Ron for the website on Mucha. my aunt sent me pictures of the
                      pipeline and a highway after the earthquake. i am glad that you were not
                      hurt
                      Noreen
                    • nhasior@aol.com
                      Thank you Frank, for all the information about the settlers and historical facts on particular areas of Slovakia. i wish that our own History courses taught
                      Message 10 of 13 , Nov 9, 2002
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                        Thank you Frank, for all the information about the settlers and historical
                        facts on particular areas of Slovakia.
                        i wish that our own History courses taught during high school and college
                        would contain more history about Eastern Europe. even today's Eastern
                        European courses mostly deal with the Holocaust and The Soviet Union. i
                        looked into the curriculum for the Soviet Union and find that it mostly deals
                        with Russia itself. so it is interesting to learn from other members of this
                        list a partial history of Slovak Republic and some of the border countries.
                        Information on the Holocaust is very stagnated and does not contain more than
                        we have heard over and over. and no details. The Diary of Anne Frank is
                        still the required reading for these courses. I have learned far more on
                        this website about Eastern Europe than in any general course given in this
                        country.
                        Noreen
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