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Re: [S-R] Re: Census madness

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  • Andrea Vangor
    Thanks for the detailed explanation. I get the idea that the Slovenes and Slovaks were a contiguous population until the Magyars pushed into the Carpathian
    Message 1 of 4 , Mar 27, 2002
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      Thanks for the detailed explanation. I get the idea that the Slovenes and
      Slovaks were a contiguous population until the Magyars pushed into the
      Carpathian Basin and separated them about a thousand years ago. We should
      think of them as distant cousins.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "frankly1us" <frankur@...>
      To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 12:02 PM
      Subject: [S-R] Re: Census madness


      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@y..., "Andrea Vangor" <drav@o...> wrote:
      > An Awful Warning: I have been strolling through the 1910 CT census
      on
      > Ancestry.com looking for assorted relatives, and was astonished to
      find my
      > Slovak great-grandparents identified as Slovenians coming from
      > "Austro-Slovenia".
      >
      > They would have spoken very little English at that point, having
      arrived in
      > 1905 and 1907. Still, that is the first time I ever came across
      this
      > particular blooper.

      Not until 1920 U.S. Census was this form of blooper began to be
      corrected.
      The 1920 U.S. Census reflected the political changes that occurred
      in Europe after 1918.
      Slovak(land) was often used for new part of Czechoslovakia
      that was now called Slovakia.
      The census record keeping didn't improve much until the 1920 U.S.
      Census when they hired some female census takers with Slavic surnames.
      Census-takers were for the most part white, Anglo males who spoke no
      foreign language.

      But, in ship manifest listings it continued into the 1920s.

      Have read any number of pre-WW I ship manifests and 1900/1910/1920
      U.S.
      Census enumeration microfilms where the term Slovak could mean either
      a Slovak or a Slovenian (depending on how knoweledgeable the writer).

      When I used to reply to surname queries at Searching in Slovakia
      website asked :

      Did you mean Slovakia or Slovenia ?
      Some who seek Slovenija (Slovenia) think it is the the same
      country as Slovakia (Slovensko)

      Slovenia was a part of former Yugoslavia in the Balkans.
      Slovakia was a part of former Czechoslovakia in Central Europe.

      Or, I asked :
      What was surname ethnicity ?
      Did you mean Austrian-Slovak or Austrian-Slovenian ?
      Before WW I, Slovakia was Hungarian and not Austrian.
      Before WW I, Slovenia was Austrian.
      When referring to the former Austrian Empire or Austro-Hungarian
      Monarchy (1867-1918) the term Austrian means very little in
      identification of surname ethnicity.
      Austrian meant nationality and not ethnicity.
      Have read pages of U.S. census enumerations where word Austria was
      later
      rubber stamped with Slovakland or Slovak.

      Slovak the official language of Slovakia is spoken by 5.6 million
      people.

      Ako sa maté ? (How are you ?)
      Rozumiem. (I understand )

      Slovenian is similar to Croatian and the official language of the
      Republic
      of Slovenia , formerly part of Yugoslavia.
      Total about 2.2 million speakers (2 million are in Slovenia)

      Kako ste ? (How are you ?)
      Razumen. (I understand )

      The Cleveland, OH area had the largest concentration of Slovenes
      outside of the capital city of Ljubljana, Slovenia.

      If you write to Slovenija and don't use Slovenia, the letter
      probably gets mailed to Slovakia. If you use Slovensko for Slovakia
      the letter probably ends up in Slovenia ?
      U.S. Postal Service only recognizes these countries under "Slovenia"
      and "Slovak Republic".

      Slovenia had once been part of former Yugoslavia in the Balkans until
      it gained its independence in 1990s.
      Slovakia had once been part of Czechoslovakia in Central Europe until
      it gained its independence in 1993.
      There was confusion even back then which contimues into 2001.


      A Slovenian recently wrote a letter to Slovenia and it ended up in
      Sierra Leone (Africa, where a civil war is being waged)
      The letter sat there was a month, before being forwarded to
      Bratislava, Slovkia, from where is was finally forwarded to the correct add=
      ress in Ljubljana, Slovenia a month later.

      A Slovenian had attempted to enter Slovakia on a Slovenian passport
      and was denied entry.
      Border guard had never seen a Slovene passport and was convinced it
      was a forgered Slovakia passport.
      After conversation with customs supervisor Slovenian was able to
      convince them that it was a legitimate passport.

      Actually, Slovak a west Slavic language is probably closest to Slovenian a =
      south Slavic language.






      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • nbenyo@aol.com
      I find the passenger ship lists amazingly accurate. I ve identified hundreds of relatives or village people , and all but one was correctly identified as
      Message 2 of 4 , Mar 27, 2002
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        I find the passenger ship lists amazingly accurate. I've identified hundreds of relatives or "village people", and all but one was correctly identified as either Slovak or Ruthenian. The one mistake was identified as Slovene, but she happened to be listed on a page of mostly Slovenes (real Slovenes!).

        Although a variety of surname spellings were used (Polish, Hungarian and/or Slovak conventions were mixed together), none of the names were "Americanized" on the manifest.
      • Andrea Vangor
        The idea that names were changed at Ellis Island seems to be one of those urban myths. In fact, the American immigration officials used the manifest lists
        Message 3 of 4 , Mar 27, 2002
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          The idea that names were changed at Ellis Island seems to be one of those
          urban myths. In fact, the American immigration officials used the manifest
          lists written up at the European port, by people who were very familiar with
          all the languages.

          I think a lot of names were changed due to city directory entries. These
          were written by local people hired for petty patronage jobs. What they
          wrote had a lasting impact on the lives of the immigrants, because their
          name was published for all to see. I don't think anybody took any interest
          in what was written on a census record nor a passenger manifest.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <nbenyo@...>
          To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 12:54 PM
          Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Census madness


          >
          > I find the passenger ship lists amazingly accurate. I've identified
          hundreds of relatives or "village people", and all but one was correctly
          identified as either Slovak or Ruthenian. The one mistake was identified as
          Slovene, but she happened to be listed on a page of mostly Slovenes (real
          Slovenes!).
          >
          > Although a variety of surname spellings were used (Polish, Hungarian
          and/or Slovak conventions were mixed together), none of the names were
          "Americanized" on the manifest.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • monica wentworth
          as hard as it is for some of us to understand all these differences-I can only imagine what the enumerators must have gone through back then-maybe barely
          Message 4 of 4 , Mar 29, 2002
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            as hard as it is for some of us to understand all these differences-I can
            only imagine what the enumerators must have gone through back then-maybe
            barely understanding the immigrant and then having to decipher their
            origin-I still don't quite get all the differnces!:)

            >From: nbenyo@...
            >Reply-To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            >To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
            >Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Census madness
            >Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:54:50 EST
            >
            >
            >I find the passenger ship lists amazingly accurate. I've identified
            >hundreds of relatives or "village people", and all but one was correctly
            >identified as either Slovak or Ruthenian. The one mistake was identified
            >as Slovene, but she happened to be listed on a page of mostly Slovenes
            >(real Slovenes!).
            >
            >Although a variety of surname spellings were used (Polish, Hungarian and/or
            >Slovak conventions were mixed together), none of the names were
            >"Americanized" on the manifest.


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