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Re: [S-R] (unknown)

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  • Andrea Vangor
    Probably means debilitation -- sometimes children and elderly died of what looked like wasting away. I think I have even seen marasmus as a cause of death in
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 3, 2002
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      Probably means debilitation -- sometimes children and elderly died of what
      looked like wasting away. I think I have even seen marasmus as a cause of
      death in elderly people in church records.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Peggy" <mleva@...>
      To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 10:20 PM
      Subject: Re: [S-R] (unknown)


      >
      >
      > -------Original Message-------
      >
      > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:01:51 PM
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [S-R] (unknown)
      >
      > Thank you again John for the further explanation on Debilis, but I am a
      > little confused about your explanation. For instance; how would they
      (the
      > Doctors or whoever made the call of death) know the child died of Debilis
      (a
      > cause of death primarily given to elderly death)? Since, as you say, the
      > parents probably did not have the luxury of being able to see a doctor,
      why
      > would they specify Debilis? Why not, say, using your reference again,
      > congenital problems or anything else? This is very curious to me, and
      > maybe I am making too much of it, but I find this vague explanation, on a
      > three week old death certificate, disturbing and most probably acceptable
      at
      > that time. My 2 cents!
      >
      > Peggy
      >
      > At 07:12 PM 12/31/01 -0500, you wrote:
      > >Thank you John. I am sure the web sites you sent will come in handy as I
      > >continue my research.
      > >
      > >I guess since the child was only 3 weeks old his death today would have
      > been
      > >considered a crib death.
      >
      > Crib death to me means something sudden and difficult to explain. Child
      > mortality was high in those days. Any illness or congenital problem could
      > easily take the life of an infant. The child could have been sickly at
      > birth and simply couldn't recover. They may have been well aware of the
      > condition but very seldom did anyone have the luxury of being able to see
      a
      > doctor. Home remedies were used to cure (or kill) the patient. I
      remember
      > hearing of one that included cow urine as an ingredient for a pneumonia
      > medication.
      >
      > John
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
    • frankly1us
      ... Parish priests had different levels of knowledge of Latin. It was not classical nor medevial Latin, just some kind of Latin. debilis (Latin) debil.is
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 4, 2002
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        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@y..., "Peggy" <mleva@e...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > -------Original Message-------
        >
        > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@y...
        > Date: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:01:51 PM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@y...
        > Subject: Re: [S-R] (unknown)
        >
        > Thank you again John for the further explanation on Debilis, but I am a
        > little confused about your explanation. For instance; how would they (the
        > Doctors or whoever made the call of death) know the child died of Debilis (a
        > cause of death primarily given to elderly death)? Since, as you say, the
        > parents probably did not have the luxury of being able to see a doctor, why
        > would they specify Debilis? Why not, say, using your reference again,
        > congenital problems or anything else? This is very curious to me, and
        > maybe I am making too much of it, but I find this vague explanation, on a
        > three week old death certificate, disturbing and most probably acceptable at
        > that time. My 2 cents!
        >
        > Peggy

        Parish priests had different levels of knowledge of Latin.
        It was not classical nor medevial Latin, just some kind of Latin.

        debilis (Latin)

        debil.is ADJ 3 2 NOM S C POS
        debil.is ADJ 3 2 GEN S X POS
        debil.is ADJ 3 2 ACC P C POS
        debilis, debile, debilior -or -us, debilissimus -a -um ADJ
        weak/feeble/frail; crippled/disabled; wanting/deprived (competence);
        ineffective
        *
      • John
        ... The cause would probably be entered by the parish priest or clerk. Debility - This was a term descriptive of a patient s condition and of no help in
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 4, 2002
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          At 01:20 AM 1/4/02 -0500, you wrote:


          >-------Original Message-------
          >
          >From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          >Date: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:01:51 PM
          >To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: Re: [S-R] (unknown)
          >
          >Thank you again John for the further explanation on Debilis, but I am a
          >little confused about your explanation. For instance; how would they (the
          >Doctors or whoever made the call of death) know the child died of Debilis (a
          >cause of death primarily given to elderly death)? Since, as you say, the
          >parents probably did not have the luxury of being able to see a doctor, why
          >would they specify Debilis?

          The cause would probably be entered by the parish priest or
          clerk. Debility - "This was a term descriptive of a patient's condition
          and of no help in making a diagnosis." Since the cause may not have been
          known, they used the condition as a cause. Elderly people did not die of
          "debility" but the term was used as a cause because heart failure and other
          causes may not have been diagnosed. I would guess that in some cases
          socially unacceptable causes such as sexually transmitted diseases were not
          entered either. I know at one time cancer was a "hush" word and people
          were reluctant to mention it but, if it was obvious, I believe it was entered.

          >Why not, say, using your reference again, congenital problems or anything
          >else? This is very curious to me, and maybe I am making too much of it,
          >but I find this vague explanation, on a three week old death certificate,
          >disturbing and most probably acceptable at that time. My 2 cents!

          I'm sure it was acceptable and practiced there and in this country during
          that period. I recall an article in the NM Magazine from the sixties. The
          article described a ranch house that had a noose hanging from one of the
          beams in the house. They said the records indicated two men were hanged
          there. One was Russian Bill accused of stealing a horse (found he didn't do
          it - postmortem) and the other's crime was being a "damn nuisance"
          (probably a habitual criminal in today's parlance). No DNA, autopsies (in
          most cases), etc. back then. Death was simply accepted. "Everybody has to
          die, that's life." as one comic said.

          John


          >Peggy
          >
          > At 07:12 PM 12/31/01 -0500, you wrote:
          > >Thank you John. I am sure the web sites you sent will come in handy as I
          > >continue my research.
          > >
          > >I guess since the child was only 3 weeks old his death today would have
          >been
          > >considered a crib death.
          >
          >Crib death to me means something sudden and difficult to explain. Child
          >mortality was high in those days. Any illness or congenital problem could
          >easily take the life of an infant. The child could have been sickly at
          >birth and simply couldn't recover. They may have been well aware of the
          >condition but very seldom did anyone have the luxury of being able to see a
          >doctor. Home remedies were used to cure (or kill) the patient. I remember
          >hearing of one that included cow urine as an ingredient for a pneumonia
          >medication.
          >
          >John
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • Peggy
          Thank you John, Frank, and Andrea for taking the time to respond to my question. Oh, John your explanation makes a lot of sense and seems the most likely,
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 6, 2002
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            Thank you John, Frank, and Andrea for taking the time to respond to my
            question.

            Oh, John your explanation makes a lot of sense and seems the most likely,
            thanks for the input. I guess with all of the medical technology we have
            today it upset me that death was more accepted at that time, just because.
            I also enjoyed your story about the hanged men, they certainly had a way
            with words back then. Try arresting and sending someone to death row for
            being a "nuisance" today, HA! Half the planet would be in jail.

            Happy New Year

            Peggy





            -------Original Message-------

            From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, January 04, 2002 10:35:12 AM
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [S-R] (cause unknown)

            At 01:20 AM 1/4/02 -0500, you wrote:


            >-------Original Message-------
            >
            >From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            >Date: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:01:51 PM
            >To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [S-R] (unknown)
            >
            >Thank you again John for the further explanation on Debilis, but I am a
            >little confused about your explanation. For instance; how would they (the
            >Doctors or whoever made the call of death) know the child died of Debilis
            (a
            >cause of death primarily given to elderly death)? Since, as you say, the
            >parents probably did not have the luxury of being able to see a doctor, why
            >would they specify Debilis?

            The cause would probably be entered by the parish priest or
            clerk. Debility - "This was a term descriptive of a patient's condition
            and of no help in making a diagnosis." Since the cause may not have been
            known, they used the condition as a cause. Elderly people did not die of
            "debility" but the term was used as a cause because heart failure and other
            causes may not have been diagnosed. I would guess that in some cases
            socially unacceptable causes such as sexually transmitted diseases were not
            entered either. I know at one time cancer was a "hush" word and people
            were reluctant to mention it but, if it was obvious, I believe it was
            entered.

            >Why not, say, using your reference again, congenital problems or anything
            >else? This is very curious to me, and maybe I am making too much of it,
            >but I find this vague explanation, on a three week old death certificate,
            >disturbing and most probably acceptable at that time. My 2 cents!

            I'm sure it was acceptable and practiced there and in this country during
            that period. I recall an article in the NM Magazine from the sixties. The
            article described a ranch house that had a noose hanging from one of the
            beams in the house. They said the records indicated two men were hanged
            there. One was Russian Bill accused of stealing a horse (found he didn't do
            it - postmortem) and the other's crime was being a "damn nuisance"
            (probably a habitual criminal in today's parlance). No DNA, autopsies (in
            most cases), etc. back then. Death was simply accepted. "Everybody has to
            die, that's life." as one comic said.

            John


            >Peggy
            >
            > At 07:12 PM 12/31/01 -0500, you wrote:
            > >Thank you John. I am sure the web sites you sent will come in handy as I
            > >continue my research.
            > >
            > >I guess since the child was only 3 weeks old his death today would have
            >been
            > >considered a crib death.
            >
            >Crib death to me means something sudden and difficult to explain. Child
            >mortality was high in those days. Any illness or congenital problem could
            >easily take the life of an infant. The child could have been sickly at
            >birth and simply couldn't recover. They may have been well aware of the
            >condition but very seldom did anyone have the luxury of being able to see a
            >doctor. Home remedies were used to cure (or kill) the patient. I remember
            >hearing of one that included cow urine as an ingredient for a pneumonia
            >medication.
            >
            >John
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            >
            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



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