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Re: [S-R] (unknown)

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  • Peggy
    ... From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:01:51 PM To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [S-R] (unknown) Thank you
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 3, 2002
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      -------Original Message-------

      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:01:51 PM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [S-R] (unknown)

      Thank you again John for the further explanation on Debilis, but I am a
      little confused about your explanation. For instance; how would they (the
      Doctors or whoever made the call of death) know the child died of Debilis (a
      cause of death primarily given to elderly death)? Since, as you say, the
      parents probably did not have the luxury of being able to see a doctor, why
      would they specify Debilis? Why not, say, using your reference again,
      congenital problems or anything else? This is very curious to me, and
      maybe I am making too much of it, but I find this vague explanation, on a
      three week old death certificate, disturbing and most probably acceptable at
      that time. My 2 cents!

      Peggy

      At 07:12 PM 12/31/01 -0500, you wrote:
      >Thank you John. I am sure the web sites you sent will come in handy as I
      >continue my research.
      >
      >I guess since the child was only 3 weeks old his death today would have
      been
      >considered a crib death.

      Crib death to me means something sudden and difficult to explain. Child
      mortality was high in those days. Any illness or congenital problem could
      easily take the life of an infant. The child could have been sickly at
      birth and simply couldn't recover. They may have been well aware of the
      condition but very seldom did anyone have the luxury of being able to see a
      doctor. Home remedies were used to cure (or kill) the patient. I remember
      hearing of one that included cow urine as an ingredient for a pneumonia
      medication.

      John




      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Andrea Vangor
      Probably means debilitation -- sometimes children and elderly died of what looked like wasting away. I think I have even seen marasmus as a cause of death in
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 3, 2002
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        Probably means debilitation -- sometimes children and elderly died of what
        looked like wasting away. I think I have even seen marasmus as a cause of
        death in elderly people in church records.


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Peggy" <mleva@...>
        To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 10:20 PM
        Subject: Re: [S-R] (unknown)


        >
        >
        > -------Original Message-------
        >
        > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:01:51 PM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [S-R] (unknown)
        >
        > Thank you again John for the further explanation on Debilis, but I am a
        > little confused about your explanation. For instance; how would they
        (the
        > Doctors or whoever made the call of death) know the child died of Debilis
        (a
        > cause of death primarily given to elderly death)? Since, as you say, the
        > parents probably did not have the luxury of being able to see a doctor,
        why
        > would they specify Debilis? Why not, say, using your reference again,
        > congenital problems or anything else? This is very curious to me, and
        > maybe I am making too much of it, but I find this vague explanation, on a
        > three week old death certificate, disturbing and most probably acceptable
        at
        > that time. My 2 cents!
        >
        > Peggy
        >
        > At 07:12 PM 12/31/01 -0500, you wrote:
        > >Thank you John. I am sure the web sites you sent will come in handy as I
        > >continue my research.
        > >
        > >I guess since the child was only 3 weeks old his death today would have
        > been
        > >considered a crib death.
        >
        > Crib death to me means something sudden and difficult to explain. Child
        > mortality was high in those days. Any illness or congenital problem could
        > easily take the life of an infant. The child could have been sickly at
        > birth and simply couldn't recover. They may have been well aware of the
        > condition but very seldom did anyone have the luxury of being able to see
        a
        > doctor. Home remedies were used to cure (or kill) the patient. I
        remember
        > hearing of one that included cow urine as an ingredient for a pneumonia
        > medication.
        >
        > John
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
      • frankly1us
        ... Parish priests had different levels of knowledge of Latin. It was not classical nor medevial Latin, just some kind of Latin. debilis (Latin) debil.is
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 4, 2002
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          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@y..., "Peggy" <mleva@e...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > -------Original Message-------
          >
          > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@y...
          > Date: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:01:51 PM
          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@y...
          > Subject: Re: [S-R] (unknown)
          >
          > Thank you again John for the further explanation on Debilis, but I am a
          > little confused about your explanation. For instance; how would they (the
          > Doctors or whoever made the call of death) know the child died of Debilis (a
          > cause of death primarily given to elderly death)? Since, as you say, the
          > parents probably did not have the luxury of being able to see a doctor, why
          > would they specify Debilis? Why not, say, using your reference again,
          > congenital problems or anything else? This is very curious to me, and
          > maybe I am making too much of it, but I find this vague explanation, on a
          > three week old death certificate, disturbing and most probably acceptable at
          > that time. My 2 cents!
          >
          > Peggy

          Parish priests had different levels of knowledge of Latin.
          It was not classical nor medevial Latin, just some kind of Latin.

          debilis (Latin)

          debil.is ADJ 3 2 NOM S C POS
          debil.is ADJ 3 2 GEN S X POS
          debil.is ADJ 3 2 ACC P C POS
          debilis, debile, debilior -or -us, debilissimus -a -um ADJ
          weak/feeble/frail; crippled/disabled; wanting/deprived (competence);
          ineffective
          *
        • John
          ... The cause would probably be entered by the parish priest or clerk. Debility - This was a term descriptive of a patient s condition and of no help in
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 4, 2002
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            At 01:20 AM 1/4/02 -0500, you wrote:


            >-------Original Message-------
            >
            >From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            >Date: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:01:51 PM
            >To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [S-R] (unknown)
            >
            >Thank you again John for the further explanation on Debilis, but I am a
            >little confused about your explanation. For instance; how would they (the
            >Doctors or whoever made the call of death) know the child died of Debilis (a
            >cause of death primarily given to elderly death)? Since, as you say, the
            >parents probably did not have the luxury of being able to see a doctor, why
            >would they specify Debilis?

            The cause would probably be entered by the parish priest or
            clerk. Debility - "This was a term descriptive of a patient's condition
            and of no help in making a diagnosis." Since the cause may not have been
            known, they used the condition as a cause. Elderly people did not die of
            "debility" but the term was used as a cause because heart failure and other
            causes may not have been diagnosed. I would guess that in some cases
            socially unacceptable causes such as sexually transmitted diseases were not
            entered either. I know at one time cancer was a "hush" word and people
            were reluctant to mention it but, if it was obvious, I believe it was entered.

            >Why not, say, using your reference again, congenital problems or anything
            >else? This is very curious to me, and maybe I am making too much of it,
            >but I find this vague explanation, on a three week old death certificate,
            >disturbing and most probably acceptable at that time. My 2 cents!

            I'm sure it was acceptable and practiced there and in this country during
            that period. I recall an article in the NM Magazine from the sixties. The
            article described a ranch house that had a noose hanging from one of the
            beams in the house. They said the records indicated two men were hanged
            there. One was Russian Bill accused of stealing a horse (found he didn't do
            it - postmortem) and the other's crime was being a "damn nuisance"
            (probably a habitual criminal in today's parlance). No DNA, autopsies (in
            most cases), etc. back then. Death was simply accepted. "Everybody has to
            die, that's life." as one comic said.

            John


            >Peggy
            >
            > At 07:12 PM 12/31/01 -0500, you wrote:
            > >Thank you John. I am sure the web sites you sent will come in handy as I
            > >continue my research.
            > >
            > >I guess since the child was only 3 weeks old his death today would have
            >been
            > >considered a crib death.
            >
            >Crib death to me means something sudden and difficult to explain. Child
            >mortality was high in those days. Any illness or congenital problem could
            >easily take the life of an infant. The child could have been sickly at
            >birth and simply couldn't recover. They may have been well aware of the
            >condition but very seldom did anyone have the luxury of being able to see a
            >doctor. Home remedies were used to cure (or kill) the patient. I remember
            >hearing of one that included cow urine as an ingredient for a pneumonia
            >medication.
            >
            >John
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            >
            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Peggy
            Thank you John, Frank, and Andrea for taking the time to respond to my question. Oh, John your explanation makes a lot of sense and seems the most likely,
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 6, 2002
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              Thank you John, Frank, and Andrea for taking the time to respond to my
              question.

              Oh, John your explanation makes a lot of sense and seems the most likely,
              thanks for the input. I guess with all of the medical technology we have
              today it upset me that death was more accepted at that time, just because.
              I also enjoyed your story about the hanged men, they certainly had a way
              with words back then. Try arresting and sending someone to death row for
              being a "nuisance" today, HA! Half the planet would be in jail.

              Happy New Year

              Peggy





              -------Original Message-------

              From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, January 04, 2002 10:35:12 AM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [S-R] (cause unknown)

              At 01:20 AM 1/4/02 -0500, you wrote:


              >-------Original Message-------
              >
              >From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              >Date: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:01:51 PM
              >To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: Re: [S-R] (unknown)
              >
              >Thank you again John for the further explanation on Debilis, but I am a
              >little confused about your explanation. For instance; how would they (the
              >Doctors or whoever made the call of death) know the child died of Debilis
              (a
              >cause of death primarily given to elderly death)? Since, as you say, the
              >parents probably did not have the luxury of being able to see a doctor, why
              >would they specify Debilis?

              The cause would probably be entered by the parish priest or
              clerk. Debility - "This was a term descriptive of a patient's condition
              and of no help in making a diagnosis." Since the cause may not have been
              known, they used the condition as a cause. Elderly people did not die of
              "debility" but the term was used as a cause because heart failure and other
              causes may not have been diagnosed. I would guess that in some cases
              socially unacceptable causes such as sexually transmitted diseases were not
              entered either. I know at one time cancer was a "hush" word and people
              were reluctant to mention it but, if it was obvious, I believe it was
              entered.

              >Why not, say, using your reference again, congenital problems or anything
              >else? This is very curious to me, and maybe I am making too much of it,
              >but I find this vague explanation, on a three week old death certificate,
              >disturbing and most probably acceptable at that time. My 2 cents!

              I'm sure it was acceptable and practiced there and in this country during
              that period. I recall an article in the NM Magazine from the sixties. The
              article described a ranch house that had a noose hanging from one of the
              beams in the house. They said the records indicated two men were hanged
              there. One was Russian Bill accused of stealing a horse (found he didn't do
              it - postmortem) and the other's crime was being a "damn nuisance"
              (probably a habitual criminal in today's parlance). No DNA, autopsies (in
              most cases), etc. back then. Death was simply accepted. "Everybody has to
              die, that's life." as one comic said.

              John


              >Peggy
              >
              > At 07:12 PM 12/31/01 -0500, you wrote:
              > >Thank you John. I am sure the web sites you sent will come in handy as I
              > >continue my research.
              > >
              > >I guess since the child was only 3 weeks old his death today would have
              >been
              > >considered a crib death.
              >
              >Crib death to me means something sudden and difficult to explain. Child
              >mortality was high in those days. Any illness or congenital problem could
              >easily take the life of an infant. The child could have been sickly at
              >birth and simply couldn't recover. They may have been well aware of the
              >condition but very seldom did anyone have the luxury of being able to see a
              >doctor. Home remedies were used to cure (or kill) the patient. I remember
              >hearing of one that included cow urine as an ingredient for a pneumonia
              >medication.
              >
              >John
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

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