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Re: [S-R] (unknown)

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  • Fran M Roen
    Thank you! I didn t know this. Hopefully it will help me. My grandfather is the documentation for Dolena. He often said he as born in Dolena Austria. He
    Message 1 of 6 , Dec 5, 2001
      Thank you! I didn't know this. Hopefully it will help me.
      My grandfather is the documentation for Dolena. He often said he as
      born in Dolena Austria.

      He spoke German

      Thank you again for all your help.

      Take Care
      Fran





      On Wed, 05 Dec 2001 05:52:38 -0000 "frankly1us" <frankur@...> writes:
      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@y..., Fran M Roen <artbyfran@j...> wrote:
      > > Hi. My name is Fran Roen
      > >
      > > I'm looking for information on a Nicholas Hemmerling b. ablt 1860
      > birth
      > > place believed to be Yagerdorf.
      > > he married Philamena Dick and they had one son Frank Hemmerling
      > >
      > > Can you help me? I'm bloody from hitting his brick wall.
      > >
      > > Take Care
      > > Fran
      >
      > Don't know your surnames.
      > Rauche, Roen, Hemmerling, and Kramer are German surnames.
      >
      > Dolena could be any one of many place names in many European
      > countries ?
      > What was the documentation for Dolena ? Written in what language ?
      >
      > In Hungarian, Czech, Slovak, Polish, other Slavic languages, and
      > German the letter J is pron. Y.
      >
      > A Jagerdorfel is located 55 miles north of Praha at the curerent
      > German
      > border at Grosssch�nau.
      >
      > And J�gerndorf (G) was Krnov (Cz) located at the current Polish
      > border.
      >
      > After WW 2 the Czechs renamed all the German named towns to Czech
      > names.
      > They also liked to give the same Czech name to multiple locations to
      > lose
      > former German identity.
      > In 1945-1948 they expelled the 3 million Germans in Czechoslovakia
      > and
      > executed 200,000 or so by starvation and summary execution.
      >
      > There are hundreds of Hemmerling associated with Luxembourg,
      > Dresden,
      > Germany; Austria, Canada, Saxony, Poland, and American Midwest.
      >
      >
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    • Peggy
      ... From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:01:51 PM To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [S-R] (unknown) Thank you
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 3, 2002
        -------Original Message-------

        From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:01:51 PM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [S-R] (unknown)

        Thank you again John for the further explanation on Debilis, but I am a
        little confused about your explanation. For instance; how would they (the
        Doctors or whoever made the call of death) know the child died of Debilis (a
        cause of death primarily given to elderly death)? Since, as you say, the
        parents probably did not have the luxury of being able to see a doctor, why
        would they specify Debilis? Why not, say, using your reference again,
        congenital problems or anything else? This is very curious to me, and
        maybe I am making too much of it, but I find this vague explanation, on a
        three week old death certificate, disturbing and most probably acceptable at
        that time. My 2 cents!

        Peggy

        At 07:12 PM 12/31/01 -0500, you wrote:
        >Thank you John. I am sure the web sites you sent will come in handy as I
        >continue my research.
        >
        >I guess since the child was only 3 weeks old his death today would have
        been
        >considered a crib death.

        Crib death to me means something sudden and difficult to explain. Child
        mortality was high in those days. Any illness or congenital problem could
        easily take the life of an infant. The child could have been sickly at
        birth and simply couldn't recover. They may have been well aware of the
        condition but very seldom did anyone have the luxury of being able to see a
        doctor. Home remedies were used to cure (or kill) the patient. I remember
        hearing of one that included cow urine as an ingredient for a pneumonia
        medication.

        John




        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Andrea Vangor
        Probably means debilitation -- sometimes children and elderly died of what looked like wasting away. I think I have even seen marasmus as a cause of death in
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 3, 2002
          Probably means debilitation -- sometimes children and elderly died of what
          looked like wasting away. I think I have even seen marasmus as a cause of
          death in elderly people in church records.


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Peggy" <mleva@...>
          To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 10:20 PM
          Subject: Re: [S-R] (unknown)


          >
          >
          > -------Original Message-------
          >
          > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:01:51 PM
          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [S-R] (unknown)
          >
          > Thank you again John for the further explanation on Debilis, but I am a
          > little confused about your explanation. For instance; how would they
          (the
          > Doctors or whoever made the call of death) know the child died of Debilis
          (a
          > cause of death primarily given to elderly death)? Since, as you say, the
          > parents probably did not have the luxury of being able to see a doctor,
          why
          > would they specify Debilis? Why not, say, using your reference again,
          > congenital problems or anything else? This is very curious to me, and
          > maybe I am making too much of it, but I find this vague explanation, on a
          > three week old death certificate, disturbing and most probably acceptable
          at
          > that time. My 2 cents!
          >
          > Peggy
          >
          > At 07:12 PM 12/31/01 -0500, you wrote:
          > >Thank you John. I am sure the web sites you sent will come in handy as I
          > >continue my research.
          > >
          > >I guess since the child was only 3 weeks old his death today would have
          > been
          > >considered a crib death.
          >
          > Crib death to me means something sudden and difficult to explain. Child
          > mortality was high in those days. Any illness or congenital problem could
          > easily take the life of an infant. The child could have been sickly at
          > birth and simply couldn't recover. They may have been well aware of the
          > condition but very seldom did anyone have the luxury of being able to see
          a
          > doctor. Home remedies were used to cure (or kill) the patient. I
          remember
          > hearing of one that included cow urine as an ingredient for a pneumonia
          > medication.
          >
          > John
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
        • frankly1us
          ... Parish priests had different levels of knowledge of Latin. It was not classical nor medevial Latin, just some kind of Latin. debilis (Latin) debil.is
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 4, 2002
            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@y..., "Peggy" <mleva@e...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > -------Original Message-------
            >
            > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@y...
            > Date: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:01:51 PM
            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@y...
            > Subject: Re: [S-R] (unknown)
            >
            > Thank you again John for the further explanation on Debilis, but I am a
            > little confused about your explanation. For instance; how would they (the
            > Doctors or whoever made the call of death) know the child died of Debilis (a
            > cause of death primarily given to elderly death)? Since, as you say, the
            > parents probably did not have the luxury of being able to see a doctor, why
            > would they specify Debilis? Why not, say, using your reference again,
            > congenital problems or anything else? This is very curious to me, and
            > maybe I am making too much of it, but I find this vague explanation, on a
            > three week old death certificate, disturbing and most probably acceptable at
            > that time. My 2 cents!
            >
            > Peggy

            Parish priests had different levels of knowledge of Latin.
            It was not classical nor medevial Latin, just some kind of Latin.

            debilis (Latin)

            debil.is ADJ 3 2 NOM S C POS
            debil.is ADJ 3 2 GEN S X POS
            debil.is ADJ 3 2 ACC P C POS
            debilis, debile, debilior -or -us, debilissimus -a -um ADJ
            weak/feeble/frail; crippled/disabled; wanting/deprived (competence);
            ineffective
            *
          • John
            ... The cause would probably be entered by the parish priest or clerk. Debility - This was a term descriptive of a patient s condition and of no help in
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 4, 2002
              At 01:20 AM 1/4/02 -0500, you wrote:


              >-------Original Message-------
              >
              >From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              >Date: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:01:51 PM
              >To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: Re: [S-R] (unknown)
              >
              >Thank you again John for the further explanation on Debilis, but I am a
              >little confused about your explanation. For instance; how would they (the
              >Doctors or whoever made the call of death) know the child died of Debilis (a
              >cause of death primarily given to elderly death)? Since, as you say, the
              >parents probably did not have the luxury of being able to see a doctor, why
              >would they specify Debilis?

              The cause would probably be entered by the parish priest or
              clerk. Debility - "This was a term descriptive of a patient's condition
              and of no help in making a diagnosis." Since the cause may not have been
              known, they used the condition as a cause. Elderly people did not die of
              "debility" but the term was used as a cause because heart failure and other
              causes may not have been diagnosed. I would guess that in some cases
              socially unacceptable causes such as sexually transmitted diseases were not
              entered either. I know at one time cancer was a "hush" word and people
              were reluctant to mention it but, if it was obvious, I believe it was entered.

              >Why not, say, using your reference again, congenital problems or anything
              >else? This is very curious to me, and maybe I am making too much of it,
              >but I find this vague explanation, on a three week old death certificate,
              >disturbing and most probably acceptable at that time. My 2 cents!

              I'm sure it was acceptable and practiced there and in this country during
              that period. I recall an article in the NM Magazine from the sixties. The
              article described a ranch house that had a noose hanging from one of the
              beams in the house. They said the records indicated two men were hanged
              there. One was Russian Bill accused of stealing a horse (found he didn't do
              it - postmortem) and the other's crime was being a "damn nuisance"
              (probably a habitual criminal in today's parlance). No DNA, autopsies (in
              most cases), etc. back then. Death was simply accepted. "Everybody has to
              die, that's life." as one comic said.

              John


              >Peggy
              >
              > At 07:12 PM 12/31/01 -0500, you wrote:
              > >Thank you John. I am sure the web sites you sent will come in handy as I
              > >continue my research.
              > >
              > >I guess since the child was only 3 weeks old his death today would have
              >been
              > >considered a crib death.
              >
              >Crib death to me means something sudden and difficult to explain. Child
              >mortality was high in those days. Any illness or congenital problem could
              >easily take the life of an infant. The child could have been sickly at
              >birth and simply couldn't recover. They may have been well aware of the
              >condition but very seldom did anyone have the luxury of being able to see a
              >doctor. Home remedies were used to cure (or kill) the patient. I remember
              >hearing of one that included cow urine as an ingredient for a pneumonia
              >medication.
              >
              >John
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • Peggy
              Thank you John, Frank, and Andrea for taking the time to respond to my question. Oh, John your explanation makes a lot of sense and seems the most likely,
              Message 6 of 6 , Jan 6, 2002
                Thank you John, Frank, and Andrea for taking the time to respond to my
                question.

                Oh, John your explanation makes a lot of sense and seems the most likely,
                thanks for the input. I guess with all of the medical technology we have
                today it upset me that death was more accepted at that time, just because.
                I also enjoyed your story about the hanged men, they certainly had a way
                with words back then. Try arresting and sending someone to death row for
                being a "nuisance" today, HA! Half the planet would be in jail.

                Happy New Year

                Peggy





                -------Original Message-------

                From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, January 04, 2002 10:35:12 AM
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [S-R] (cause unknown)

                At 01:20 AM 1/4/02 -0500, you wrote:


                >-------Original Message-------
                >
                >From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                >Date: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:01:51 PM
                >To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: Re: [S-R] (unknown)
                >
                >Thank you again John for the further explanation on Debilis, but I am a
                >little confused about your explanation. For instance; how would they (the
                >Doctors or whoever made the call of death) know the child died of Debilis
                (a
                >cause of death primarily given to elderly death)? Since, as you say, the
                >parents probably did not have the luxury of being able to see a doctor, why
                >would they specify Debilis?

                The cause would probably be entered by the parish priest or
                clerk. Debility - "This was a term descriptive of a patient's condition
                and of no help in making a diagnosis." Since the cause may not have been
                known, they used the condition as a cause. Elderly people did not die of
                "debility" but the term was used as a cause because heart failure and other
                causes may not have been diagnosed. I would guess that in some cases
                socially unacceptable causes such as sexually transmitted diseases were not
                entered either. I know at one time cancer was a "hush" word and people
                were reluctant to mention it but, if it was obvious, I believe it was
                entered.

                >Why not, say, using your reference again, congenital problems or anything
                >else? This is very curious to me, and maybe I am making too much of it,
                >but I find this vague explanation, on a three week old death certificate,
                >disturbing and most probably acceptable at that time. My 2 cents!

                I'm sure it was acceptable and practiced there and in this country during
                that period. I recall an article in the NM Magazine from the sixties. The
                article described a ranch house that had a noose hanging from one of the
                beams in the house. They said the records indicated two men were hanged
                there. One was Russian Bill accused of stealing a horse (found he didn't do
                it - postmortem) and the other's crime was being a "damn nuisance"
                (probably a habitual criminal in today's parlance). No DNA, autopsies (in
                most cases), etc. back then. Death was simply accepted. "Everybody has to
                die, that's life." as one comic said.

                John


                >Peggy
                >
                > At 07:12 PM 12/31/01 -0500, you wrote:
                > >Thank you John. I am sure the web sites you sent will come in handy as I
                > >continue my research.
                > >
                > >I guess since the child was only 3 weeks old his death today would have
                >been
                > >considered a crib death.
                >
                >Crib death to me means something sudden and difficult to explain. Child
                >mortality was high in those days. Any illness or congenital problem could
                >easily take the life of an infant. The child could have been sickly at
                >birth and simply couldn't recover. They may have been well aware of the
                >condition but very seldom did anyone have the luxury of being able to see a
                >doctor. Home remedies were used to cure (or kill) the patient. I remember
                >hearing of one that included cow urine as an ingredient for a pneumonia
                >medication.
                >
                >John
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



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