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Re: [S-R] Use of 2 Surnames?

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  • Milan Huba
    The explanation given by Adrian is consistent with what I have learned with a slight twist. Villages were subdivided into smaller areas called dvors . Each
    Message 1 of 4 , Oct 15, 2001
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      The explanation given by Adrian is consistent with what I have learned with
      a slight twist. Villages were subdivided into smaller areas called "dvors".
      Each dvor consisted of a small cluster of houses usually sharing a common
      courtyard. The houses within the dvors were usually inhabited by families
      who were closely related to each other such as siblings or cousins. The
      dvors, over a period of time acquired a name, my guess it was the surname of
      the family that built the first house in the dvor.

      Thus, in Liptovska Luzna where my father was born, there were probably 50 or
      more dvors, there was, for example, a Banas dvor, a Valusiak dvor, a Zajac
      dvor, a Huba dvor etc. One of my father's materal great-parents was born
      Jozef Zajac. When Jozef became an adult, for whatever reason, he built a
      house on an empty spot that was available in the Banas dvor. First he was
      identified as Jozef Zajac from the Banas dvor. Later Zajac was dropped and
      he became known as Jozef Banas. His first (older) children were baptised as
      Zajac, his later children and all of his grandchildren were baptised as
      Banas. On my grandmother's baptismal certificate her father was named as
      Jozef Zajac-Banas. When she married 17 years later, her name was recorded
      as Anna Banas. with no mention of the Zajac surname, even though her father
      was born a Zajac.

      Thus, the family eventually acquired the surname which was identified with
      the area (dvor) in which they lived. This would be consistent with Adrian's
      explanation of the family adopting the name of the property that the family
      aquired although the property was not necessarily always property inherited
      from a female ancestor. The property could have been acquired by other
      means... although my guess was that Adrian's explanation of inheritance from
      a female ancestor was a very common explantion.

      Milan Huba

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Andrea Vangor" <drav@...>
      To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 9:43 PM
      Subject: Re: [S-R] Use of 2 Surnames?


      > I have seen this type of thing in my own family. There it indicated a
      > process of surname adoption from a female ancestor. This occurred in some
      > cases when a woman inherited property and it was passed down to her
      > descendants.
      >
      > Another possibility is that the man in question was adopted, or his mother
      > remarried, or some such thing. I would research his own family tree and
      see
      > what you find in the previous generation or two. In my family, it was the
      > grandchildren and later descendants who adopted their grandmother's
      surname.
      >
      > I have also seen cases where a man married a widow and adopted the surname
      > of her first husband.
      >
      > I have not done a great deal of research on this question of surname
      > adoption, but believe that it may be an outcome of the peasant system,
      > officially abolished in 1848 but lingering on in local customs. Under the
      > peasant system, a family did not own property outright, but had a sort of
      > title to the use of land based on custom and status. If it was the Vangor
      > farm, for example, and a daughter inherited part of the rights to it, then
      > her husband's children would take the Vangor surname if they were living
      > there and working the property.
      >
      > Keep track of the house numbers in the villages where your people lived --
      > these were usually recorded in church documents in the latter part of the
      > 19th century. It may explain some of these mysteries to know who was
      living
      > where.
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: <AFe9963285@...>
      > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 6:20 PM
      > Subject: [S-R] Use of 2 Surnames?
      >
      >
      > > I have the following situation: all events recorded in R.C. registers of
      > > Vranov Nad Top'lou. The people involved lived in Hencovce (Henczocz).
      > > Capitalization of names is mine - not in registers. What is the
      > significance
      > > of PALENCSIK?
      > >
      > > On 21 November, 1866 Michael TOMASOV aged 35 widower married Anna SIMKO
      > > aged 18 single person
      > >
      > > On 31 August, 1869 a son John was bapt. Parents are recorded as Mich.
      > TOMASOV
      > > and Anna SIMKO
      > >
      > > On 29 October, 1871 a son Michael was bapt. Parents are recorded as
      > Michael
      > > TOMASOV and Anna SIMKO
      > >
      > > On 1 January, 1874 a daughter Maria was bapt. Parents are recorded as
      > Michael
      > > PALENSIK TOMAS and Anna SIMKO
      > >
      > > On 26 June, 1882 a son John was bapt. Parents are recorded as TOMAS
      > PALENCSIK
      > > Mihaly and SIMKO Anna
      > >
      > > On 4 June, 1885 a daughter Helen was bapt. Parents are recorded as TOMAS
      > > PALENCSIK Mihaly and SIMKO Anna
      > >
      > > On 15 September, 1885 the daughter Helen was buried. Parents are
      recorded
      > as
      > > TOMAS PALENCSIK Mihaly and SIMKO Anna.
      > >
      > > On 21 April, 1886 the wife Anna SIMKO was buried, aged 39. Her husbamd
      is
      > > recorded as TOMAS PALENCSIK Mihaly.
      > >
      > > I do need to re-check the registers for additional events, but back to
      my
      > > original question. Is PALENCSIK being used to differentiate villagers of
      > the
      > > same first and last name, a mother's maiden name? Perhaps something
      > connected
      > > with the switch to using Hungarian to keep the registers. Adding
      > additional
      > > info., there are at least two other TOMAS males appearing in the
      registers
      > in
      > > the 1870's with either a "middle" name PALENCSIK or the note TOMASOV
      alias
      > > PALENTSIK.
      > >
      > > Apologies for being long winded, but any thoughts or suggestions would
      be
      > > most appreciated.
      > >
      > > Adrian Fenton
      > > Wexford, PA
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
    • Daniel Kisha
      My information came from a elder (80+) in the village of Zelexnik, Slovakia Did you ever stop to think that both our explanations are possible reasons for the
      Message 2 of 4 , Oct 15, 2001
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        My information came from a elder (80+) in the village of Zelexnik, Slovakia

        Did you ever stop to think that both our explanations are possible reasons
        for the middle name.

        Dan Kisha
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Milan Huba" <illy@...>
        To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 2:08 PM
        Subject: Re: [S-R] Use of 2 Surnames?


        > The explanation given by Adrian is consistent with what I have learned
        with
        > a slight twist. Villages were subdivided into smaller areas called
        "dvors".
        > Each dvor consisted of a small cluster of houses usually sharing a common
        > courtyard. The houses within the dvors were usually inhabited by families
        > who were closely related to each other such as siblings or cousins. The
        > dvors, over a period of time acquired a name, my guess it was the surname
        of
        > the family that built the first house in the dvor.
        >
        > Thus, in Liptovska Luzna where my father was born, there were probably 50
        or
        > more dvors, there was, for example, a Banas dvor, a Valusiak dvor, a
        Zajac
        > dvor, a Huba dvor etc. One of my father's materal great-parents was born
        > Jozef Zajac. When Jozef became an adult, for whatever reason, he built a
        > house on an empty spot that was available in the Banas dvor. First he was
        > identified as Jozef Zajac from the Banas dvor. Later Zajac was dropped
        and
        > he became known as Jozef Banas. His first (older) children were baptised
        as
        > Zajac, his later children and all of his grandchildren were baptised as
        > Banas. On my grandmother's baptismal certificate her father was named as
        > Jozef Zajac-Banas. When she married 17 years later, her name was recorded
        > as Anna Banas. with no mention of the Zajac surname, even though her
        father
        > was born a Zajac.
        >
        > Thus, the family eventually acquired the surname which was identified with
        > the area (dvor) in which they lived. This would be consistent with
        Adrian's
        > explanation of the family adopting the name of the property that the
        family
        > aquired although the property was not necessarily always property
        inherited
        > from a female ancestor. The property could have been acquired by other
        > means... although my guess was that Adrian's explanation of inheritance
        from
        > a female ancestor was a very common explantion.
        >
        > Milan Huba
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Andrea Vangor" <drav@...>
        > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 9:43 PM
        > Subject: Re: [S-R] Use of 2 Surnames?
        >
        >
        > > I have seen this type of thing in my own family. There it indicated a
        > > process of surname adoption from a female ancestor. This occurred in
        some
        > > cases when a woman inherited property and it was passed down to her
        > > descendants.
        > >
        > > Another possibility is that the man in question was adopted, or his
        mother
        > > remarried, or some such thing. I would research his own family tree and
        > see
        > > what you find in the previous generation or two. In my family, it was
        the
        > > grandchildren and later descendants who adopted their grandmother's
        > surname.
        > >
        > > I have also seen cases where a man married a widow and adopted the
        surname
        > > of her first husband.
        > >
        > > I have not done a great deal of research on this question of surname
        > > adoption, but believe that it may be an outcome of the peasant system,
        > > officially abolished in 1848 but lingering on in local customs. Under
        the
        > > peasant system, a family did not own property outright, but had a sort
        of
        > > title to the use of land based on custom and status. If it was the
        Vangor
        > > farm, for example, and a daughter inherited part of the rights to it,
        then
        > > her husband's children would take the Vangor surname if they were living
        > > there and working the property.
        > >
        > > Keep track of the house numbers in the villages where your people
        lived --
        > > these were usually recorded in church documents in the latter part of
        the
        > > 19th century. It may explain some of these mysteries to know who was
        > living
        > > where.
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: <AFe9963285@...>
        > > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 6:20 PM
        > > Subject: [S-R] Use of 2 Surnames?
        > >
        > >
        > > > I have the following situation: all events recorded in R.C. registers
        of
        > > > Vranov Nad Top'lou. The people involved lived in Hencovce (Henczocz).
        > > > Capitalization of names is mine - not in registers. What is the
        > > significance
        > > > of PALENCSIK?
        > > >
        > > > On 21 November, 1866 Michael TOMASOV aged 35 widower married Anna
        SIMKO
        > > > aged 18 single person
        > > >
        > > > On 31 August, 1869 a son John was bapt. Parents are recorded as Mich.
        > > TOMASOV
        > > > and Anna SIMKO
        > > >
        > > > On 29 October, 1871 a son Michael was bapt. Parents are recorded as
        > > Michael
        > > > TOMASOV and Anna SIMKO
        > > >
        > > > On 1 January, 1874 a daughter Maria was bapt. Parents are recorded as
        > > Michael
        > > > PALENSIK TOMAS and Anna SIMKO
        > > >
        > > > On 26 June, 1882 a son John was bapt. Parents are recorded as TOMAS
        > > PALENCSIK
        > > > Mihaly and SIMKO Anna
        > > >
        > > > On 4 June, 1885 a daughter Helen was bapt. Parents are recorded as
        TOMAS
        > > > PALENCSIK Mihaly and SIMKO Anna
        > > >
        > > > On 15 September, 1885 the daughter Helen was buried. Parents are
        > recorded
        > > as
        > > > TOMAS PALENCSIK Mihaly and SIMKO Anna.
        > > >
        > > > On 21 April, 1886 the wife Anna SIMKO was buried, aged 39. Her husbamd
        > is
        > > > recorded as TOMAS PALENCSIK Mihaly.
        > > >
        > > > I do need to re-check the registers for additional events, but back to
        > my
        > > > original question. Is PALENCSIK being used to differentiate villagers
        of
        > > the
        > > > same first and last name, a mother's maiden name? Perhaps something
        > > connected
        > > > with the switch to using Hungarian to keep the registers. Adding
        > > additional
        > > > info., there are at least two other TOMAS males appearing in the
        > registers
        > > in
        > > > the 1870's with either a "middle" name PALENCSIK or the note TOMASOV
        > alias
        > > > PALENTSIK.
        > > >
        > > > Apologies for being long winded, but any thoughts or suggestions would
        > be
        > > > most appreciated.
        > > >
        > > > Adrian Fenton
        > > > Wexford, PA
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
      • Milan Huba
        Yes, of course, and I am sure that there may have been other reasons. In the small villages, half the villagers were at one time related to one another.
        Message 3 of 4 , Oct 15, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          Yes, of course, and I am sure that there may have been other reasons. In
          the small villages, half the villagers were at one time related to one
          another. Many of the surnames and given names were the same. People had to
          use other methods or names to differentiate between two or three peoples who
          happened to have the same name. Your explanation also seems to work..

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Daniel Kisha" <slovakic@...>
          To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 12:03 PM
          Subject: Re: [S-R] Use of 2 Surnames?


          > My information came from a elder (80+) in the village of Zelexnik,
          Slovakia
          >
          > Did you ever stop to think that both our explanations are possible reasons
          > for the middle name.
          >
          > Dan Kisha
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Milan Huba" <illy@...>
          > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 2:08 PM
          > Subject: Re: [S-R] Use of 2 Surnames?
          >
          >
          > > The explanation given by Adrian is consistent with what I have learned
          > with
          > > a slight twist. Villages were subdivided into smaller areas called
          > "dvors".
          > > Each dvor consisted of a small cluster of houses usually sharing a
          common
          > > courtyard. The houses within the dvors were usually inhabited by
          families
          > > who were closely related to each other such as siblings or cousins. The
          > > dvors, over a period of time acquired a name, my guess it was the
          surname
          > of
          > > the family that built the first house in the dvor.
          > >
          > > Thus, in Liptovska Luzna where my father was born, there were probably
          50
          > or
          > > more dvors, there was, for example, a Banas dvor, a Valusiak dvor, a
          > Zajac
          > > dvor, a Huba dvor etc. One of my father's materal great-parents was
          born
          > > Jozef Zajac. When Jozef became an adult, for whatever reason, he built
          a
          > > house on an empty spot that was available in the Banas dvor. First he
          was
          > > identified as Jozef Zajac from the Banas dvor. Later Zajac was dropped
          > and
          > > he became known as Jozef Banas. His first (older) children were
          baptised
          > as
          > > Zajac, his later children and all of his grandchildren were baptised as
          > > Banas. On my grandmother's baptismal certificate her father was named
          as
          > > Jozef Zajac-Banas. When she married 17 years later, her name was
          recorded
          > > as Anna Banas. with no mention of the Zajac surname, even though her
          > father
          > > was born a Zajac.
          > >
          > > Thus, the family eventually acquired the surname which was identified
          with
          > > the area (dvor) in which they lived. This would be consistent with
          > Adrian's
          > > explanation of the family adopting the name of the property that the
          > family
          > > aquired although the property was not necessarily always property
          > inherited
          > > from a female ancestor. The property could have been acquired by other
          > > means... although my guess was that Adrian's explanation of inheritance
          > from
          > > a female ancestor was a very common explantion.
          > >
          > > Milan Huba
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: "Andrea Vangor" <drav@...>
          > > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 9:43 PM
          > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Use of 2 Surnames?
          > >
          > >
          > > > I have seen this type of thing in my own family. There it indicated a
          > > > process of surname adoption from a female ancestor. This occurred in
          > some
          > > > cases when a woman inherited property and it was passed down to her
          > > > descendants.
          > > >
          > > > Another possibility is that the man in question was adopted, or his
          > mother
          > > > remarried, or some such thing. I would research his own family tree
          and
          > > see
          > > > what you find in the previous generation or two. In my family, it was
          > the
          > > > grandchildren and later descendants who adopted their grandmother's
          > > surname.
          > > >
          > > > I have also seen cases where a man married a widow and adopted the
          > surname
          > > > of her first husband.
          > > >
          > > > I have not done a great deal of research on this question of surname
          > > > adoption, but believe that it may be an outcome of the peasant system,
          > > > officially abolished in 1848 but lingering on in local customs. Under
          > the
          > > > peasant system, a family did not own property outright, but had a sort
          > of
          > > > title to the use of land based on custom and status. If it was the
          > Vangor
          > > > farm, for example, and a daughter inherited part of the rights to it,
          > then
          > > > her husband's children would take the Vangor surname if they were
          living
          > > > there and working the property.
          > > >
          > > > Keep track of the house numbers in the villages where your people
          > lived --
          > > > these were usually recorded in church documents in the latter part of
          > the
          > > > 19th century. It may explain some of these mysteries to know who was
          > > living
          > > > where.
          > > >
          > > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > > From: <AFe9963285@...>
          > > > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
          > > > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 6:20 PM
          > > > Subject: [S-R] Use of 2 Surnames?
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > > I have the following situation: all events recorded in R.C.
          registers
          > of
          > > > > Vranov Nad Top'lou. The people involved lived in Hencovce
          (Henczocz).
          > > > > Capitalization of names is mine - not in registers. What is the
          > > > significance
          > > > > of PALENCSIK?
          > > > >
          > > > > On 21 November, 1866 Michael TOMASOV aged 35 widower married Anna
          > SIMKO
          > > > > aged 18 single person
          > > > >
          > > > > On 31 August, 1869 a son John was bapt. Parents are recorded as
          Mich.
          > > > TOMASOV
          > > > > and Anna SIMKO
          > > > >
          > > > > On 29 October, 1871 a son Michael was bapt. Parents are recorded as
          > > > Michael
          > > > > TOMASOV and Anna SIMKO
          > > > >
          > > > > On 1 January, 1874 a daughter Maria was bapt. Parents are recorded
          as
          > > > Michael
          > > > > PALENSIK TOMAS and Anna SIMKO
          > > > >
          > > > > On 26 June, 1882 a son John was bapt. Parents are recorded as TOMAS
          > > > PALENCSIK
          > > > > Mihaly and SIMKO Anna
          > > > >
          > > > > On 4 June, 1885 a daughter Helen was bapt. Parents are recorded as
          > TOMAS
          > > > > PALENCSIK Mihaly and SIMKO Anna
          > > > >
          > > > > On 15 September, 1885 the daughter Helen was buried. Parents are
          > > recorded
          > > > as
          > > > > TOMAS PALENCSIK Mihaly and SIMKO Anna.
          > > > >
          > > > > On 21 April, 1886 the wife Anna SIMKO was buried, aged 39. Her
          husbamd
          > > is
          > > > > recorded as TOMAS PALENCSIK Mihaly.
          > > > >
          > > > > I do need to re-check the registers for additional events, but back
          to
          > > my
          > > > > original question. Is PALENCSIK being used to differentiate
          villagers
          > of
          > > > the
          > > > > same first and last name, a mother's maiden name? Perhaps something
          > > > connected
          > > > > with the switch to using Hungarian to keep the registers. Adding
          > > > additional
          > > > > info., there are at least two other TOMAS males appearing in the
          > > registers
          > > > in
          > > > > the 1870's with either a "middle" name PALENCSIK or the note TOMASOV
          > > alias
          > > > > PALENTSIK.
          > > > >
          > > > > Apologies for being long winded, but any thoughts or suggestions
          would
          > > be
          > > > > most appreciated.
          > > > >
          > > > > Adrian Fenton
          > > > > Wexford, PA
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
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