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Re: [S-R] Re: MRAFFKO Ellenbogen Latin detail 1775 Bratislava

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  • htcstech
    My goof. I shouldn t rely on my memory in the early hours. It is Clara Ellenbergerin (1795 Budapest - no image to confirm the name), Clara Ellenbogen (1789 -
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 26, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      My goof. I shouldn't rely on my memory in the early hours. It is Clara
      Ellenbergerin (1795 Budapest - no image to confirm the name), Clara
      Ellenbogen (1789 - Bratislava - St Martina) and finally Elena Carberin
      (1799 Budapest - no image).
      I have developed a mistrust of transcribed records and I may be jumping to
      conclusions.

      All this new information has happened 'live' over the last 24 hrs, solely
      based on index searches. I really should be looking at marriage and
      particularly death records as he (Georgius) could have married 3 times. His
      first wife was Susanna and I'm reasonably confident that Ellenbogen and
      Ellenbergerin are the same person. Now, I'm not sure of Elena Carberin, so
      I may chase that up when I'm in Budapest.

      Peter M.

      On 27 February 2013 06:24, CurtB <curt67boc@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > Peter,
      > Ellenbogen is already 'germanicized'. Berger and bogen are two quite
      > different German words.
      >
      >
      > Curt B.
      >
      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
      > >
      > > I have a suspicion that it was Germanicized to Ellenberger.
      > > Peter M.
      > >
      > > On 27 February 2013 06:05, CurtB wrote:
      > >
      > > > **
      >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Ron,
      > > > The surname Ellenbogen is surprisingly widespread throughout Central
      > and
      > > > Eastern Europe. It is particularly found in Jewish families, though not
      > > > exclusively so. It is today extensive in the U.S. and Israel. No
      > reason to
      > > > suppose it is associated with a place. It apparently has multiple
      > origins
      > > > but is thought to have originated as a craft or occupation of carpenter
      > > > from the name of the tool.
      > > >
      > > > Curt B.
      > > >
      > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > ***His wife, lady Clara, was born (maiden name) Ellenbogen.***
      > > > >
      > > > > Lady Clara Elbow? Perhaps she came from Ellenbogen, Bohemia, a fairy
      > > > tale appearing castle town in the elbow of the river. Today called
      > Locket
      > > > (elbow) between Karlovy Vary (Karlsbad) and Mariansky Lazne
      > (Marianbad),
      > > > Czech Republic. Not surprisingly, the town is located in an elbow of
      > the
      > > > river.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Peter,
      > > > > > It says lord Mraffko is on the five member board of administrators
      > of
      > > > legal chambers. His wife, lady Clara, was born (maiden name)
      > > > > > Ellenbogen. I am unable to read the place name, though it seems the
      > > > priest is giving house numbers on this page.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Curt B.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Curt,
      > > > > > > Thank you for clarifying these for me. I am indebted. If you
      > have the
      > > > > > > patience then I have one more.
      > > > > > > His first wife has died. He remarries and has a daughter, his
      > last
      > > > child
      > > > > > > according to the LDS index of Slovakia.
      > > > > > > (2nd last entry, right side)
      > > > > > >
      > > >
      > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22657-6186-71?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ7:2111960010
      > > > > > > The description has evolved somewhat. I can pick out certain
      > words,
      > > > but the
      > > > > > > context and phraseology eludes me.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > FYI: It is important to find out as much as possible about him as
      > > > this
      > > > > > > newly discovered branch of my ancestors sheds much light on the
      > > > Galanta
      > > > > > > branch. I believe that the family still exists in France of
      > which I
      > > > am
      > > > > > > waiting confirmation.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Peter M.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > On 26 February 2013 16:58, CurtB wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > **
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Peter,
      > > > > > > > The Rex Hung under his son's name means he is named Stephen
      > after
      > > > St.
      > > > > > > > Stephen, King of Hungary (rather than St. Stephen, the first
      > > > Christian
      > > > > > > > martyr). Excell. Dom. above his name is his noble title; his
      > > > excellency
      > > > > > > > lord Mraffko.He is working in law chambers. His place is not
      > > > necessarily
      > > > > > > > different from other times, it simply says ex Citt. that is, he
      > > > lives in
      > > > > > > > the city (of Bratislava).
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Curt B.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > In the previous listing, he was enobled, but 2 years later
      > his
      > > > newborn
      > > > > > > > > Stephanus has 'Rex Hung." added. There is also (? Dom) and
      > the
      > > > addidtion
      > > > > > > > of
      > > > > > > > > Expeditorarus.
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > >
      > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22650-11489-70?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
      > > > > > > > > Locus is quite different as well. Perhaps he moved around a
      > lot?
      > > > > > > > > Peter M.
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > On 26 February 2013 14:15, htcstech wrote:
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Georgius had a son Joannes. The entry here is a little more
      > > > specific,
      > > > > > > > but
      > > > > > > > > > almost all abbreviations.
      > > > > > > > > > Can you please decode this?
      > > > > > > > > > Also, the locus looks like In-Ved-Zin
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > >
      > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22650-8891-83?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Thanks
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Peter M
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > On 26 February 2013 13:54, CurtB wrote:
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >> **
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >> Peter,
      > > > > > > > > >> He worked for the chancery of the archbishop, not the
      > > > cathedral as
      > > > > > > > such.
      > > > > > > > > >> It does not say what position he held within it, a minor
      > > > clerk or a
      > > > > > > > senior
      > > > > > > > > >> head.
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >> Well, yes, he did come to the cathedral to have the child
      > > > baptized.
      > > > > > > > It is
      > > > > > > > > >> not unlikely that the cathedral was his parish church now,
      > > > but not
      > > > > > > > > >> necessarily since the register lists him as coming from
      > > > somewhere
      > > > > > > > else.
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >> Curt B.
      > > > > > > > > >> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
      > > > > > > > > >> >
      > > > > > > > > >> > Thank you Curt and Julie!
      > > > > > > > > >> > Is it correct to assume that he worked for the
      > Cathedral?
      > > > Or more
      > > > > > > > likely
      > > > > > > > > >> > that he came to the Cathedral with his wife for the
      > baptism?
      > > > > > > > > >> > Peter M.
      > > > > > > > > >> >
      > > > > > > > > >> > On 26 February 2013 13:25, CurtB wrote:
      > > > > > > > > >> >
      > > > > > > > > >> > > **
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >> > >
      > > > > > > > > >> > >
      > > > > > > > > >> > > Peter,
      > > > > > > > > >> > > This is the baptismal register of the cathedral
      > church of
      > > > St.
      > > > > > > > Martin
      > > > > > > > > >> in
      > > > > > > > > >> > > Bratislava..
      > > > > > > > > >> > >
      > > > > > > > > >> > > The description used for him is still in use today in
      > > > church
      > > > > > > > (canon)
      > > > > > > > > >> law.
      > > > > > > > > >> > > He belongs to, or is a member of (penes), the chancery
      > > > for the
      > > > > > > > > >> > > administration of temporal goods, that is, the money,
      > > > buildings,
      > > > > > > > > >> lands,
      > > > > > > > > >> > > investments, of the cathedral or diocese.
      > > > > > > > > >> > >
      > > > > > > > > >> > > Since this is the cathedral church people come from
      > many
      > > > different
      > > > > > > > > >> places.
      > > > > > > > > >> > > I can't read this location any better than you. Julie
      > > > Michutka has
      > > > > > > > > >> given
      > > > > > > > > >> > > reasonable guidance here.
      > > > > > > > > >> > >
      > > > > > > > > >> > > Curt B.
      > > > > > > > > >> > >
      > > > > > > > > >> > >
      > > > > > > > > >> > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
      > > > > > > > > >> > > >
      > > > > > > > > >> > > >
      > > > > > > > > >> > >
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > >
      > > >
      > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22655-31886-28?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJM:n1505507877
      > > > > > > > > >> > > >
      > > > > > > > > >> > > > Right page, last entry.
      > > > > > > > > >> > > > I need to know what "(penes?) excels camera
      > > > cancellista" in
      > > > > > > > > >> reference to
      > > > > > > > > >> > > > the father Georgius.
      > > > > > > > > >> > > > I get "within the most high room (chancellery?).
      > From
      > > > reading
      > > > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > > >> other
      > > > > > > > > >> > > > entries, I think this is a job description of some
      > kind.
      > > > > > > > > >> > > > Under Locus: I read " Ex Wericz". The script is poor
      > > > and I'm not
      > > > > > > > > >> certain.
      > > > > > > > > >> > > > Also LDS have this book under Sv.Martina (part II)
      > as a
      > > > > > > > location.
      > > > > > > > > >> Does
      > > > > > > > > >> > > > anyone know what/where that is?
      > > > > > > > > >> > > >
      > > > > > > > > >> > > > Thank you so much for your help,
      > > > > > > > > >> > > >
      > > > > > > > > >> > > > Peter M.
      > > > > > > > > >> > > >
      > > > > > > > > >> > > >
      > > > > > > > > >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
      > removed]
      > > > > > > > > >> > > >
      > > > > > > > > >> > >
      > > > > > > > > >> > >
      > > > > > > > > >> > >
      > > > > > > > > >> >
      > > > > > > > > >> >
      > > > > > > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > > > > > > >> >
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • helene cincebeaux
      Loket is a simply gorgeous fairy tale castle - i stayed at an inn under the castle and had a ghost experience. If ever you are nearby - dont miss this really
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 27, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Loket is a simply gorgeous fairy tale castle - i stayed at an inn under the castle and had a ghost experience. If ever you are nearby - dont miss this really wonderful place

        helene

        --- On Tue, 2/26/13, Ron <amiak27@...> wrote:

        > From: Ron <amiak27@...>
        > Subject: [S-R] Re: MRAFFKO Latin detail 1775 Bratislava
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 12:09 PM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ***His wife, lady Clara, was born (maiden name)
        > Ellenbogen.***
        >
        >
        >
        > Lady Clara Elbow? Perhaps she came from Ellenbogen,
        > Bohemia, a fairy tale appearing castle town in the elbow of
        > the river. Today called Locket (elbow) between Karlovy Vary
        > (Karlsbad) and Mariansky Lazne (Marianbad), Czech Republic.
        > Not surprisingly, the town is located in an elbow of the
        > river.
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com,
        > "CurtB" wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Peter,
        >
        > > It says lord Mraffko is on the five member board of
        > administrators of legal chambers. His wife, lady Clara, was
        > born (maiden name)
        >
        > > Ellenbogen. I am unable to read the place name, though
        > it seems the priest is giving house numbers on this page.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Curt B.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com,
        > htcstech wrote:
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > Curt,
        >
        > > > Thank you for clarifying these for me. I am
        > indebted. If you have the
        >
        > > > patience then I have one more.
        >
        > > > His first wife has died. He remarries and has a
        > daughter, his last child
        >
        > > > according to the LDS index of Slovakia.
        >
        > > > (2nd last entry, right side)
        >
        > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22657-6186-71?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ7:2111960010
        >
        > > > The description has evolved somewhat. I can pick
        > out certain words, but the
        >
        > > > context and phraseology eludes me.
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > FYI: It is important to find out as much as
        > possible about him as this
        >
        > > > newly discovered branch of my ancestors sheds much
        > light on the Galanta
        >
        > > > branch. I believe that the family still exists in
        > France of which I am
        >
        > > > waiting confirmation.
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > Peter M.
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > On 26 February 2013 16:58, CurtB wrote:
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > > **
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > > > Peter,
        >
        > > > > The Rex Hung under his son's name means
        > he is named Stephen after St.
        >
        > > > > Stephen, King of Hungary (rather than St.
        > Stephen, the first Christian
        >
        > > > > martyr). Excell. Dom. above his name is his
        > noble title; his excellency
        >
        > > > > lord Mraffko.He is working in law chambers.
        > His place is not necessarily
        >
        > > > > different from other times, it simply says ex
        > Citt. that is, he lives in
        >
        > > > > the city (of Bratislava).
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > > > Curt B.
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com,
        > htcstech wrote:
        >
        > > > > >
        >
        > > > > > In the previous listing, he was enobled,
        > but 2 years later his newborn
        >
        > > > > > Stephanus has 'Rex Hung."
        > added. There is also (? Dom) and the addidtion
        >
        > > > > of
        >
        > > > > > Expeditorarus.
        >
        > > > > >
        >
        > > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22650-11489-70?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
        >
        > > > > > Locus is quite different as well.
        > Perhaps he moved around a lot?
        >
        > > > > > Peter M.
        >
        > > > > >
        >
        > > > > > On 26 February 2013 14:15, htcstech
        > wrote:
        >
        > > > > >
        >
        > > > > > > Georgius had a son Joannes. The
        > entry here is a little more specific,
        >
        > > > > but
        >
        > > > > > > almost all abbreviations.
        >
        > > > > > > Can you please decode this?
        >
        > > > > > > Also, the locus looks like
        > In-Ved-Zin
        >
        > > > > > >
        >
        > > > > > >
        >
        > > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22650-8891-83?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
        >
        > > > > > >
        >
        > > > > > > Thanks
        >
        > > > > > >
        >
        > > > > > > Peter M
        >
        > > > > > >
        >
        > > > > > >
        >
        > > > > > > On 26 February 2013 13:54, CurtB
        > wrote:
        >
        > > > > > >
        >
        > > > > > >> **
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > > > > >>
        >
        > > > > > >>
        >
        > > > > > >> Peter,
        >
        > > > > > >> He worked for the chancery of
        > the archbishop, not the cathedral as
        >
        > > > > such.
        >
        > > > > > >> It does not say what position
        > he held within it, a minor clerk or a
        >
        > > > > senior
        >
        > > > > > >> head.
        >
        > > > > > >>
        >
        > > > > > >> Well, yes, he did come to the
        > cathedral to have the child baptized.
        >
        > > > > It is
        >
        > > > > > >> not unlikely that the cathedral
        > was his parish church now, but not
        >
        > > > > > >> necessarily since the register
        > lists him as coming from somewhere
        >
        > > > > else.
        >
        > > > > > >>
        >
        > > > > > >>
        >
        > > > > > >> Curt B.
        >
        > > > > > >> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com,
        > htcstech wrote:
        >
        > > > > > >> >
        >
        > > > > > >> > Thank you Curt and Julie!
        >
        > > > > > >> > Is it correct to assume
        > that he worked for the Cathedral? Or more
        >
        > > > > likely
        >
        > > > > > >> > that he came to the
        > Cathedral with his wife for the baptism?
        >
        > > > > > >> > Peter M.
        >
        > > > > > >> >
        >
        > > > > > >> > On 26 February 2013 13:25,
        > CurtB wrote:
        >
        > > > > > >> >
        >
        > > > > > >> > > **
        >
        > > > > > >>
        >
        > > > > > >> > >
        >
        > > > > > >> > >
        >
        > > > > > >> > > Peter,
        >
        > > > > > >> > > This is the baptismal
        > register of the cathedral church of St.
        >
        > > > > Martin
        >
        > > > > > >> in
        >
        > > > > > >> > > Bratislava..
        >
        > > > > > >> > >
        >
        > > > > > >> > > The description used
        > for him is still in use today in church
        >
        > > > > (canon)
        >
        > > > > > >> law.
        >
        > > > > > >> > > He belongs to, or is
        > a member of (penes), the chancery for the
        >
        > > > > > >> > > administration of
        > temporal goods, that is, the money, buildings,
        >
        > > > > > >> lands,
        >
        > > > > > >> > > investments, of the
        > cathedral or diocese.
        >
        > > > > > >> > >
        >
        > > > > > >> > > Since this is the
        > cathedral church people come from many different
        >
        > > > > > >> places.
        >
        > > > > > >> > > I can't read this
        > location any better than you. Julie Michutka has
        >
        > > > > > >> given
        >
        > > > > > >> > > reasonable guidance
        > here.
        >
        > > > > > >> > >
        >
        > > > > > >> > > Curt B.
        >
        > > > > > >> > >
        >
        > > > > > >> > >
        >
        > > > > > >> > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com,
        > htcstech wrote:
        >
        > > > > > >> > > >
        >
        > > > > > >> > > >
        >
        > > > > > >> > >
        >
        > > > > > >>
        >
        > > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22655-31886-28?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJM:n1505507877
        >
        > > > > > >> > > >
        >
        > > > > > >> > > > Right page, last
        > entry.
        >
        > > > > > >> > > > I need to know
        > what "(penes?) excels camera cancellista" in
        >
        > > > > > >> reference to
        >
        > > > > > >> > > > the father
        > Georgius.
        >
        > > > > > >> > > > I get
        > "within the most high room (chancellery?). From
        > reading
        >
        > > > > the
        >
        > > > > > >> other
        >
        > > > > > >> > > > entries, I think
        > this is a job description of some kind.
        >
        > > > > > >> > > > Under Locus: I
        > read " Ex Wericz". The script is poor and I'm
        > not
        >
        > > > > > >> certain.
        >
        > > > > > >> > > > Also LDS have
        > this book under Sv.Martina (part II) as a
        >
        > > > > location.
        >
        > > > > > >> Does
        >
        > > > > > >> > > > anyone know
        > what/where that is?
        >
        > > > > > >> > > >
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        > > > > > >> > > > Thank you so
        > much for your help,
        >
        > > > > > >> > > >
        >
        > > > > > >> > > > Peter M.
        >
        > > > > > >> > > >
        >
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        > > > > > >> > > > [Non-text
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        > > > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this
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        > > > > > >
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        > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have
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        > > >
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        > > >
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        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > removed]
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        > > >
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        > >
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