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[S-R] Re: MRAFFKO Latin detail 1775 Bratislava

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  • CurtB
    Peter, It says lord Mraffko is on the five member board of administrators of legal chambers. His wife, lady Clara, was born (maiden name) Ellenbogen. I am
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 26, 2013
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      Peter,
      It says lord Mraffko is on the five member board of administrators of legal chambers. His wife, lady Clara, was born (maiden name)
      Ellenbogen. I am unable to read the place name, though it seems the priest is giving house numbers on this page.

      Curt B.

      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
      >
      > Curt,
      > Thank you for clarifying these for me. I am indebted. If you have the
      > patience then I have one more.
      > His first wife has died. He remarries and has a daughter, his last child
      > according to the LDS index of Slovakia.
      > (2nd last entry, right side)
      > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22657-6186-71?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ7:2111960010
      > The description has evolved somewhat. I can pick out certain words, but the
      > context and phraseology eludes me.
      >
      > FYI: It is important to find out as much as possible about him as this
      > newly discovered branch of my ancestors sheds much light on the Galanta
      > branch. I believe that the family still exists in France of which I am
      > waiting confirmation.
      >
      > Peter M.
      >
      > On 26 February 2013 16:58, CurtB <curt67boc@...> wrote:
      >
      > > **
      > >
      > >
      > > Peter,
      > > The Rex Hung under his son's name means he is named Stephen after St.
      > > Stephen, King of Hungary (rather than St. Stephen, the first Christian
      > > martyr). Excell. Dom. above his name is his noble title; his excellency
      > > lord Mraffko.He is working in law chambers. His place is not necessarily
      > > different from other times, it simply says ex Citt. that is, he lives in
      > > the city (of Bratislava).
      > >
      > >
      > > Curt B.
      > >
      > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
      > > >
      > > > In the previous listing, he was enobled, but 2 years later his newborn
      > > > Stephanus has 'Rex Hung." added. There is also (? Dom) and the addidtion
      > > of
      > > > Expeditorarus.
      > > >
      > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22650-11489-70?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
      > > > Locus is quite different as well. Perhaps he moved around a lot?
      > > > Peter M.
      > > >
      > > > On 26 February 2013 14:15, htcstech wrote:
      > > >
      > > > > Georgius had a son Joannes. The entry here is a little more specific,
      > > but
      > > > > almost all abbreviations.
      > > > > Can you please decode this?
      > > > > Also, the locus looks like In-Ved-Zin
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22650-8891-83?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
      > > > >
      > > > > Thanks
      > > > >
      > > > > Peter M
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > On 26 February 2013 13:54, CurtB wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > >> **
      > >
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >> Peter,
      > > > >> He worked for the chancery of the archbishop, not the cathedral as
      > > such.
      > > > >> It does not say what position he held within it, a minor clerk or a
      > > senior
      > > > >> head.
      > > > >>
      > > > >> Well, yes, he did come to the cathedral to have the child baptized.
      > > It is
      > > > >> not unlikely that the cathedral was his parish church now, but not
      > > > >> necessarily since the register lists him as coming from somewhere
      > > else.
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >> Curt B.
      > > > >> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
      > > > >> >
      > > > >> > Thank you Curt and Julie!
      > > > >> > Is it correct to assume that he worked for the Cathedral? Or more
      > > likely
      > > > >> > that he came to the Cathedral with his wife for the baptism?
      > > > >> > Peter M.
      > > > >> >
      > > > >> > On 26 February 2013 13:25, CurtB wrote:
      > > > >> >
      > > > >> > > **
      > > > >>
      > > > >> > >
      > > > >> > >
      > > > >> > > Peter,
      > > > >> > > This is the baptismal register of the cathedral church of St.
      > > Martin
      > > > >> in
      > > > >> > > Bratislava..
      > > > >> > >
      > > > >> > > The description used for him is still in use today in church
      > > (canon)
      > > > >> law.
      > > > >> > > He belongs to, or is a member of (penes), the chancery for the
      > > > >> > > administration of temporal goods, that is, the money, buildings,
      > > > >> lands,
      > > > >> > > investments, of the cathedral or diocese.
      > > > >> > >
      > > > >> > > Since this is the cathedral church people come from many different
      > > > >> places.
      > > > >> > > I can't read this location any better than you. Julie Michutka has
      > > > >> given
      > > > >> > > reasonable guidance here.
      > > > >> > >
      > > > >> > > Curt B.
      > > > >> > >
      > > > >> > >
      > > > >> > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
      > > > >> > > >
      > > > >> > > >
      > > > >> > >
      > > > >>
      > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22655-31886-28?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJM:n1505507877
      > > > >> > > >
      > > > >> > > > Right page, last entry.
      > > > >> > > > I need to know what "(penes?) excels camera cancellista" in
      > > > >> reference to
      > > > >> > > > the father Georgius.
      > > > >> > > > I get "within the most high room (chancellery?). From reading
      > > the
      > > > >> other
      > > > >> > > > entries, I think this is a job description of some kind.
      > > > >> > > > Under Locus: I read " Ex Wericz". The script is poor and I'm not
      > > > >> certain.
      > > > >> > > > Also LDS have this book under Sv.Martina (part II) as a
      > > location.
      > > > >> Does
      > > > >> > > > anyone know what/where that is?
      > > > >> > > >
      > > > >> > > > Thank you so much for your help,
      > > > >> > > >
      > > > >> > > > Peter M.
      > > > >> > > >
      > > > >> > > >
      > > > >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > >> > > >
      > > > >> > >
      > > > >> > >
      > > > >> > >
      > > > >> >
      > > > >> >
      > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > >> >
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Ron
      ***His wife, lady Clara, was born (maiden name) Ellenbogen.*** Lady Clara Elbow? Perhaps she came from Ellenbogen, Bohemia, a fairy tale appearing castle town
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 26, 2013
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        ***His wife, lady Clara, was born (maiden name) Ellenbogen.***

        Lady Clara Elbow? Perhaps she came from Ellenbogen, Bohemia, a fairy tale appearing castle town in the elbow of the river. Today called Locket (elbow) between Karlovy Vary (Karlsbad) and Mariansky Lazne (Marianbad), Czech Republic. Not surprisingly, the town is located in an elbow of the river.


        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" <curt67boc@...> wrote:
        >
        > Peter,
        > It says lord Mraffko is on the five member board of administrators of legal chambers. His wife, lady Clara, was born (maiden name)
        > Ellenbogen. I am unable to read the place name, though it seems the priest is giving house numbers on this page.
        >
        > Curt B.
        >
        > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Curt,
        > > Thank you for clarifying these for me. I am indebted. If you have the
        > > patience then I have one more.
        > > His first wife has died. He remarries and has a daughter, his last child
        > > according to the LDS index of Slovakia.
        > > (2nd last entry, right side)
        > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22657-6186-71?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ7:2111960010
        > > The description has evolved somewhat. I can pick out certain words, but the
        > > context and phraseology eludes me.
        > >
        > > FYI: It is important to find out as much as possible about him as this
        > > newly discovered branch of my ancestors sheds much light on the Galanta
        > > branch. I believe that the family still exists in France of which I am
        > > waiting confirmation.
        > >
        > > Peter M.
        > >
        > > On 26 February 2013 16:58, CurtB <curt67boc@> wrote:
        > >
        > > > **
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Peter,
        > > > The Rex Hung under his son's name means he is named Stephen after St.
        > > > Stephen, King of Hungary (rather than St. Stephen, the first Christian
        > > > martyr). Excell. Dom. above his name is his noble title; his excellency
        > > > lord Mraffko.He is working in law chambers. His place is not necessarily
        > > > different from other times, it simply says ex Citt. that is, he lives in
        > > > the city (of Bratislava).
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Curt B.
        > > >
        > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > In the previous listing, he was enobled, but 2 years later his newborn
        > > > > Stephanus has 'Rex Hung." added. There is also (? Dom) and the addidtion
        > > > of
        > > > > Expeditorarus.
        > > > >
        > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22650-11489-70?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
        > > > > Locus is quite different as well. Perhaps he moved around a lot?
        > > > > Peter M.
        > > > >
        > > > > On 26 February 2013 14:15, htcstech wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > > Georgius had a son Joannes. The entry here is a little more specific,
        > > > but
        > > > > > almost all abbreviations.
        > > > > > Can you please decode this?
        > > > > > Also, the locus looks like In-Ved-Zin
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22650-8891-83?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Thanks
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Peter M
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > On 26 February 2013 13:54, CurtB wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > >> **
        > > >
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >> Peter,
        > > > > >> He worked for the chancery of the archbishop, not the cathedral as
        > > > such.
        > > > > >> It does not say what position he held within it, a minor clerk or a
        > > > senior
        > > > > >> head.
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >> Well, yes, he did come to the cathedral to have the child baptized.
        > > > It is
        > > > > >> not unlikely that the cathedral was his parish church now, but not
        > > > > >> necessarily since the register lists him as coming from somewhere
        > > > else.
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >> Curt B.
        > > > > >> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
        > > > > >> >
        > > > > >> > Thank you Curt and Julie!
        > > > > >> > Is it correct to assume that he worked for the Cathedral? Or more
        > > > likely
        > > > > >> > that he came to the Cathedral with his wife for the baptism?
        > > > > >> > Peter M.
        > > > > >> >
        > > > > >> > On 26 February 2013 13:25, CurtB wrote:
        > > > > >> >
        > > > > >> > > **
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >> > >
        > > > > >> > >
        > > > > >> > > Peter,
        > > > > >> > > This is the baptismal register of the cathedral church of St.
        > > > Martin
        > > > > >> in
        > > > > >> > > Bratislava..
        > > > > >> > >
        > > > > >> > > The description used for him is still in use today in church
        > > > (canon)
        > > > > >> law.
        > > > > >> > > He belongs to, or is a member of (penes), the chancery for the
        > > > > >> > > administration of temporal goods, that is, the money, buildings,
        > > > > >> lands,
        > > > > >> > > investments, of the cathedral or diocese.
        > > > > >> > >
        > > > > >> > > Since this is the cathedral church people come from many different
        > > > > >> places.
        > > > > >> > > I can't read this location any better than you. Julie Michutka has
        > > > > >> given
        > > > > >> > > reasonable guidance here.
        > > > > >> > >
        > > > > >> > > Curt B.
        > > > > >> > >
        > > > > >> > >
        > > > > >> > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
        > > > > >> > > >
        > > > > >> > > >
        > > > > >> > >
        > > > > >>
        > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22655-31886-28?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJM:n1505507877
        > > > > >> > > >
        > > > > >> > > > Right page, last entry.
        > > > > >> > > > I need to know what "(penes?) excels camera cancellista" in
        > > > > >> reference to
        > > > > >> > > > the father Georgius.
        > > > > >> > > > I get "within the most high room (chancellery?). From reading
        > > > the
        > > > > >> other
        > > > > >> > > > entries, I think this is a job description of some kind.
        > > > > >> > > > Under Locus: I read " Ex Wericz". The script is poor and I'm not
        > > > > >> certain.
        > > > > >> > > > Also LDS have this book under Sv.Martina (part II) as a
        > > > location.
        > > > > >> Does
        > > > > >> > > > anyone know what/where that is?
        > > > > >> > > >
        > > > > >> > > > Thank you so much for your help,
        > > > > >> > > >
        > > > > >> > > > Peter M.
        > > > > >> > > >
        > > > > >> > > >
        > > > > >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > > >> > > >
        > > > > >> > >
        > > > > >> > >
        > > > > >> > >
        > > > > >> >
        > > > > >> >
        > > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > > >> >
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
      • CurtB
        Ron, The surname Ellenbogen is surprisingly widespread throughout Central and Eastern Europe. It is particularly found in Jewish families, though not
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 26, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Ron,
          The surname Ellenbogen is surprisingly widespread throughout Central and Eastern Europe. It is particularly found in Jewish families, though not exclusively so. It is today extensive in the U.S. and Israel. No reason to suppose it is associated with a place. It apparently has multiple origins but is thought to have originated as a craft or occupation of carpenter from the name of the tool.

          Curt B.

          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <amiak27@...> wrote:
          >
          > ***His wife, lady Clara, was born (maiden name) Ellenbogen.***
          >
          > Lady Clara Elbow? Perhaps she came from Ellenbogen, Bohemia, a fairy tale appearing castle town in the elbow of the river. Today called Locket (elbow) between Karlovy Vary (Karlsbad) and Mariansky Lazne (Marianbad), Czech Republic. Not surprisingly, the town is located in an elbow of the river.
          >
          >
          > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" <curt67boc@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Peter,
          > > It says lord Mraffko is on the five member board of administrators of legal chambers. His wife, lady Clara, was born (maiden name)
          > > Ellenbogen. I am unable to read the place name, though it seems the priest is giving house numbers on this page.
          > >
          > > Curt B.
          > >
          > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Curt,
          > > > Thank you for clarifying these for me. I am indebted. If you have the
          > > > patience then I have one more.
          > > > His first wife has died. He remarries and has a daughter, his last child
          > > > according to the LDS index of Slovakia.
          > > > (2nd last entry, right side)
          > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22657-6186-71?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ7:2111960010
          > > > The description has evolved somewhat. I can pick out certain words, but the
          > > > context and phraseology eludes me.
          > > >
          > > > FYI: It is important to find out as much as possible about him as this
          > > > newly discovered branch of my ancestors sheds much light on the Galanta
          > > > branch. I believe that the family still exists in France of which I am
          > > > waiting confirmation.
          > > >
          > > > Peter M.
          > > >
          > > > On 26 February 2013 16:58, CurtB <curt67boc@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > > **
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Peter,
          > > > > The Rex Hung under his son's name means he is named Stephen after St.
          > > > > Stephen, King of Hungary (rather than St. Stephen, the first Christian
          > > > > martyr). Excell. Dom. above his name is his noble title; his excellency
          > > > > lord Mraffko.He is working in law chambers. His place is not necessarily
          > > > > different from other times, it simply says ex Citt. that is, he lives in
          > > > > the city (of Bratislava).
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Curt B.
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > In the previous listing, he was enobled, but 2 years later his newborn
          > > > > > Stephanus has 'Rex Hung." added. There is also (? Dom) and the addidtion
          > > > > of
          > > > > > Expeditorarus.
          > > > > >
          > > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22650-11489-70?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
          > > > > > Locus is quite different as well. Perhaps he moved around a lot?
          > > > > > Peter M.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > On 26 February 2013 14:15, htcstech wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > > Georgius had a son Joannes. The entry here is a little more specific,
          > > > > but
          > > > > > > almost all abbreviations.
          > > > > > > Can you please decode this?
          > > > > > > Also, the locus looks like In-Ved-Zin
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22650-8891-83?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Thanks
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Peter M
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > On 26 February 2013 13:54, CurtB wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >> **
          > > > >
          > > > > > >>
          > > > > > >>
          > > > > > >> Peter,
          > > > > > >> He worked for the chancery of the archbishop, not the cathedral as
          > > > > such.
          > > > > > >> It does not say what position he held within it, a minor clerk or a
          > > > > senior
          > > > > > >> head.
          > > > > > >>
          > > > > > >> Well, yes, he did come to the cathedral to have the child baptized.
          > > > > It is
          > > > > > >> not unlikely that the cathedral was his parish church now, but not
          > > > > > >> necessarily since the register lists him as coming from somewhere
          > > > > else.
          > > > > > >>
          > > > > > >>
          > > > > > >> Curt B.
          > > > > > >> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
          > > > > > >> >
          > > > > > >> > Thank you Curt and Julie!
          > > > > > >> > Is it correct to assume that he worked for the Cathedral? Or more
          > > > > likely
          > > > > > >> > that he came to the Cathedral with his wife for the baptism?
          > > > > > >> > Peter M.
          > > > > > >> >
          > > > > > >> > On 26 February 2013 13:25, CurtB wrote:
          > > > > > >> >
          > > > > > >> > > **
          > > > > > >>
          > > > > > >> > >
          > > > > > >> > >
          > > > > > >> > > Peter,
          > > > > > >> > > This is the baptismal register of the cathedral church of St.
          > > > > Martin
          > > > > > >> in
          > > > > > >> > > Bratislava..
          > > > > > >> > >
          > > > > > >> > > The description used for him is still in use today in church
          > > > > (canon)
          > > > > > >> law.
          > > > > > >> > > He belongs to, or is a member of (penes), the chancery for the
          > > > > > >> > > administration of temporal goods, that is, the money, buildings,
          > > > > > >> lands,
          > > > > > >> > > investments, of the cathedral or diocese.
          > > > > > >> > >
          > > > > > >> > > Since this is the cathedral church people come from many different
          > > > > > >> places.
          > > > > > >> > > I can't read this location any better than you. Julie Michutka has
          > > > > > >> given
          > > > > > >> > > reasonable guidance here.
          > > > > > >> > >
          > > > > > >> > > Curt B.
          > > > > > >> > >
          > > > > > >> > >
          > > > > > >> > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
          > > > > > >> > > >
          > > > > > >> > > >
          > > > > > >> > >
          > > > > > >>
          > > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22655-31886-28?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJM:n1505507877
          > > > > > >> > > >
          > > > > > >> > > > Right page, last entry.
          > > > > > >> > > > I need to know what "(penes?) excels camera cancellista" in
          > > > > > >> reference to
          > > > > > >> > > > the father Georgius.
          > > > > > >> > > > I get "within the most high room (chancellery?). From reading
          > > > > the
          > > > > > >> other
          > > > > > >> > > > entries, I think this is a job description of some kind.
          > > > > > >> > > > Under Locus: I read " Ex Wericz". The script is poor and I'm not
          > > > > > >> certain.
          > > > > > >> > > > Also LDS have this book under Sv.Martina (part II) as a
          > > > > location.
          > > > > > >> Does
          > > > > > >> > > > anyone know what/where that is?
          > > > > > >> > > >
          > > > > > >> > > > Thank you so much for your help,
          > > > > > >> > > >
          > > > > > >> > > > Peter M.
          > > > > > >> > > >
          > > > > > >> > > >
          > > > > > >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > > > >> > > >
          > > > > > >> > >
          > > > > > >> > >
          > > > > > >> > >
          > > > > > >> >
          > > > > > >> >
          > > > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > > > >> >
          > > > > > >>
          > > > > > >>
          > > > > > >>
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • htcstech
          Ron, Could be true, but I think not. After this child, they moved to Budapest and had another girl. Here her name was more correctly written as Ellenberger.
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 26, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Ron,
            Could be true, but I think not. After this child, they moved to Budapest
            and had another girl. Here her name was more correctly written as
            Ellenberger. Also MRAFFKO was written as MRAVKO. In one record, ELLENBERGER
            was written as ELEN CARBERIN (Budapest). I think the family moved a lot
            probably due to the horrendous political situation. His only son, Stephanus
            (the Rex Hungaria one) turns up in Liptovský Hrádok or Liptovský Mikuláš,
            also a notary and claimed to be from Budapest.

            Now back to the debate about literacy and church records!
            Here we have a very literate individual who most probably spoke German,
            Latin, Slovak/Czeh as well as Hungarian. The priest/scribe incorrectly
            records his name phonetically, swapping the FF for a V. A very common
            occurrance in my ancestry.
            Georgius probably never saw the entry, or even less likely, he agreed with
            the change although I can't see a political or social advantage for this.
            It's a real pity that I can't see the original image as the Hungarians
            (frustratingly) have restricted the LDS from showing it.

            To put things in perspective, the MRAFFKO/MRAVKO/ELLENBERGER names appear
            in other parts of Slovakia.
            Georgius Mraffko is becoming iconic for my research, much of it
            circumstantial though. The contemporary Galanta branch of the family were
            not enobled, though the women (and one man), married into nobility.
            Evidence exists that a significant portion if not all, worked for the
            Esterhazy households in one capacity or another, became local
            administrators, overseers, militia and had strong ties to the church. I'm
            pretty sure that there was much chest-beating going on up to 1849/50 when
            it slowly started to unravel.
            There are so many clues that my head is swimming. Perhaps I can find
            something in MOL?

            Peter M.

            On 27 February 2013 04:09, Ron <amiak27@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > ***His wife, lady Clara, was born (maiden name) Ellenbogen.***
            >
            > Lady Clara Elbow? Perhaps she came from Ellenbogen, Bohemia, a fairy tale
            > appearing castle town in the elbow of the river. Today called Locket
            > (elbow) between Karlovy Vary (Karlsbad) and Mariansky Lazne (Marianbad),
            > Czech Republic. Not surprisingly, the town is located in an elbow of the
            > river.
            >
            >
            > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" wrote:
            > >
            > > Peter,
            > > It says lord Mraffko is on the five member board of administrators of
            > legal chambers. His wife, lady Clara, was born (maiden name)
            > > Ellenbogen. I am unable to read the place name, though it seems the
            > priest is giving house numbers on this page.
            > >
            > > Curt B.
            > >
            > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Curt,
            > > > Thank you for clarifying these for me. I am indebted. If you have the
            > > > patience then I have one more.
            > > > His first wife has died. He remarries and has a daughter, his last
            > child
            > > > according to the LDS index of Slovakia.
            > > > (2nd last entry, right side)
            > > >
            > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22657-6186-71?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ7:2111960010
            > > > The description has evolved somewhat. I can pick out certain words,
            > but the
            > > > context and phraseology eludes me.
            > > >
            > > > FYI: It is important to find out as much as possible about him as this
            > > > newly discovered branch of my ancestors sheds much light on the Galanta
            > > > branch. I believe that the family still exists in France of which I am
            > > > waiting confirmation.
            > > >
            > > > Peter M.
            > > >
            > > > On 26 February 2013 16:58, CurtB wrote:
            > > >
            > > > > **
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Peter,
            > > > > The Rex Hung under his son's name means he is named Stephen after St.
            > > > > Stephen, King of Hungary (rather than St. Stephen, the first
            > Christian
            > > > > martyr). Excell. Dom. above his name is his noble title; his
            > excellency
            > > > > lord Mraffko.He is working in law chambers. His place is not
            > necessarily
            > > > > different from other times, it simply says ex Citt. that is, he
            > lives in
            > > > > the city (of Bratislava).
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Curt B.
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > In the previous listing, he was enobled, but 2 years later his
            > newborn
            > > > > > Stephanus has 'Rex Hung." added. There is also (? Dom) and the
            > addidtion
            > > > > of
            > > > > > Expeditorarus.
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22650-11489-70?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
            > > > > > Locus is quite different as well. Perhaps he moved around a lot?
            > > > > > Peter M.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > On 26 February 2013 14:15, htcstech wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > > Georgius had a son Joannes. The entry here is a little more
            > specific,
            > > > > but
            > > > > > > almost all abbreviations.
            > > > > > > Can you please decode this?
            > > > > > > Also, the locus looks like In-Ved-Zin
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > >
            > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22650-8891-83?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Thanks
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Peter M
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > On 26 February 2013 13:54, CurtB wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >> **
            > > > >
            > > > > > >>
            > > > > > >>
            > > > > > >> Peter,
            > > > > > >> He worked for the chancery of the archbishop, not the cathedral
            > as
            > > > > such.
            > > > > > >> It does not say what position he held within it, a minor clerk
            > or a
            > > > > senior
            > > > > > >> head.
            > > > > > >>
            > > > > > >> Well, yes, he did come to the cathedral to have the child
            > baptized.
            > > > > It is
            > > > > > >> not unlikely that the cathedral was his parish church now, but
            > not
            > > > > > >> necessarily since the register lists him as coming from
            > somewhere
            > > > > else.
            > > > > > >>
            > > > > > >>
            > > > > > >> Curt B.
            > > > > > >> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
            > > > > > >> >
            > > > > > >> > Thank you Curt and Julie!
            > > > > > >> > Is it correct to assume that he worked for the Cathedral? Or
            > more
            > > > > likely
            > > > > > >> > that he came to the Cathedral with his wife for the baptism?
            > > > > > >> > Peter M.
            > > > > > >> >
            > > > > > >> > On 26 February 2013 13:25, CurtB wrote:
            > > > > > >> >
            > > > > > >> > > **
            > > > > > >>
            > > > > > >> > >
            > > > > > >> > >
            > > > > > >> > > Peter,
            > > > > > >> > > This is the baptismal register of the cathedral church of
            > St.
            > > > > Martin
            > > > > > >> in
            > > > > > >> > > Bratislava..
            > > > > > >> > >
            > > > > > >> > > The description used for him is still in use today in church
            > > > > (canon)
            > > > > > >> law.
            > > > > > >> > > He belongs to, or is a member of (penes), the chancery for
            > the
            > > > > > >> > > administration of temporal goods, that is, the money,
            > buildings,
            > > > > > >> lands,
            > > > > > >> > > investments, of the cathedral or diocese.
            > > > > > >> > >
            > > > > > >> > > Since this is the cathedral church people come from many
            > different
            > > > > > >> places.
            > > > > > >> > > I can't read this location any better than you. Julie
            > Michutka has
            > > > > > >> given
            > > > > > >> > > reasonable guidance here.
            > > > > > >> > >
            > > > > > >> > > Curt B.
            > > > > > >> > >
            > > > > > >> > >
            > > > > > >> > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
            > > > > > >> > > >
            > > > > > >> > > >
            > > > > > >> > >
            > > > > > >>
            > > > >
            > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22655-31886-28?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJM:n1505507877
            > > > > > >> > > >
            > > > > > >> > > > Right page, last entry.
            > > > > > >> > > > I need to know what "(penes?) excels camera cancellista"
            > in
            > > > > > >> reference to
            > > > > > >> > > > the father Georgius.
            > > > > > >> > > > I get "within the most high room (chancellery?). From
            > reading
            > > > > the
            > > > > > >> other
            > > > > > >> > > > entries, I think this is a job description of some kind.
            > > > > > >> > > > Under Locus: I read " Ex Wericz". The script is poor and
            > I'm not
            > > > > > >> certain.
            > > > > > >> > > > Also LDS have this book under Sv.Martina (part II) as a
            > > > > location.
            > > > > > >> Does
            > > > > > >> > > > anyone know what/where that is?
            > > > > > >> > > >
            > > > > > >> > > > Thank you so much for your help,
            > > > > > >> > > >
            > > > > > >> > > > Peter M.
            > > > > > >> > > >
            > > > > > >> > > >
            > > > > > >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > > > > >> > > >
            > > > > > >> > >
            > > > > > >> > >
            > > > > > >> > >
            > > > > > >> >
            > > > > > >> >
            > > > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > > > > >> >
            > > > > > >>
            > > > > > >>
            > > > > > >>
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ron
            Thanks Curt. It is interesting to hear the broader part of the story. You also cut off a wild goose chase! I can recommend a stop at Locket, Bohemia for
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 26, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Thanks Curt. It is interesting to hear the broader part of the story. You also cut off a wild goose chase!

              I can recommend a stop at Locket, Bohemia for anyone in the neighborhood. It is also famous for being the place where Goethe as an old man proposed marriage to the 17 year old granddaughter of an old girlfriend.

              --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" <curt67boc@...> wrote:
              >
              > Ron,
              > The surname Ellenbogen is surprisingly widespread throughout Central and Eastern Europe. It is particularly found in Jewish families, though not exclusively so. It is today extensive in the U.S. and Israel. No reason to suppose it is associated with a place. It apparently has multiple origins but is thought to have originated as a craft or occupation of carpenter from the name of the tool.
              >
              > Curt B.
              >
              > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <amiak27@> wrote:
              > >
              > > ***His wife, lady Clara, was born (maiden name) Ellenbogen.***
              > >
              > > Lady Clara Elbow? Perhaps she came from Ellenbogen, Bohemia, a fairy tale appearing castle town in the elbow of the river. Today called Locket (elbow) between Karlovy Vary (Karlsbad) and Mariansky Lazne (Marianbad), Czech Republic. Not surprisingly, the town is located in an elbow of the river.
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" <curt67boc@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Peter,
              > > > It says lord Mraffko is on the five member board of administrators of legal chambers. His wife, lady Clara, was born (maiden name)
              > > > Ellenbogen. I am unable to read the place name, though it seems the priest is giving house numbers on this page.
              > > >
              > > > Curt B.
              > > >
              > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Curt,
              > > > > Thank you for clarifying these for me. I am indebted. If you have the
              > > > > patience then I have one more.
              > > > > His first wife has died. He remarries and has a daughter, his last child
              > > > > according to the LDS index of Slovakia.
              > > > > (2nd last entry, right side)
              > > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22657-6186-71?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ7:2111960010
              > > > > The description has evolved somewhat. I can pick out certain words, but the
              > > > > context and phraseology eludes me.
              > > > >
              > > > > FYI: It is important to find out as much as possible about him as this
              > > > > newly discovered branch of my ancestors sheds much light on the Galanta
              > > > > branch. I believe that the family still exists in France of which I am
              > > > > waiting confirmation.
              > > > >
              > > > > Peter M.
              > > > >
              > > > > On 26 February 2013 16:58, CurtB <curt67boc@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > > **
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Peter,
              > > > > > The Rex Hung under his son's name means he is named Stephen after St.
              > > > > > Stephen, King of Hungary (rather than St. Stephen, the first Christian
              > > > > > martyr). Excell. Dom. above his name is his noble title; his excellency
              > > > > > lord Mraffko.He is working in law chambers. His place is not necessarily
              > > > > > different from other times, it simply says ex Citt. that is, he lives in
              > > > > > the city (of Bratislava).
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Curt B.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > In the previous listing, he was enobled, but 2 years later his newborn
              > > > > > > Stephanus has 'Rex Hung." added. There is also (? Dom) and the addidtion
              > > > > > of
              > > > > > > Expeditorarus.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22650-11489-70?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
              > > > > > > Locus is quite different as well. Perhaps he moved around a lot?
              > > > > > > Peter M.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > On 26 February 2013 14:15, htcstech wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Georgius had a son Joannes. The entry here is a little more specific,
              > > > > > but
              > > > > > > > almost all abbreviations.
              > > > > > > > Can you please decode this?
              > > > > > > > Also, the locus looks like In-Ved-Zin
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22650-8891-83?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Thanks
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Peter M
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > On 26 February 2013 13:54, CurtB wrote:
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > >> **
              > > > > >
              > > > > > > >>
              > > > > > > >>
              > > > > > > >> Peter,
              > > > > > > >> He worked for the chancery of the archbishop, not the cathedral as
              > > > > > such.
              > > > > > > >> It does not say what position he held within it, a minor clerk or a
              > > > > > senior
              > > > > > > >> head.
              > > > > > > >>
              > > > > > > >> Well, yes, he did come to the cathedral to have the child baptized.
              > > > > > It is
              > > > > > > >> not unlikely that the cathedral was his parish church now, but not
              > > > > > > >> necessarily since the register lists him as coming from somewhere
              > > > > > else.
              > > > > > > >>
              > > > > > > >>
              > > > > > > >> Curt B.
              > > > > > > >> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
              > > > > > > >> >
              > > > > > > >> > Thank you Curt and Julie!
              > > > > > > >> > Is it correct to assume that he worked for the Cathedral? Or more
              > > > > > likely
              > > > > > > >> > that he came to the Cathedral with his wife for the baptism?
              > > > > > > >> > Peter M.
              > > > > > > >> >
              > > > > > > >> > On 26 February 2013 13:25, CurtB wrote:
              > > > > > > >> >
              > > > > > > >> > > **
              > > > > > > >>
              > > > > > > >> > >
              > > > > > > >> > >
              > > > > > > >> > > Peter,
              > > > > > > >> > > This is the baptismal register of the cathedral church of St.
              > > > > > Martin
              > > > > > > >> in
              > > > > > > >> > > Bratislava..
              > > > > > > >> > >
              > > > > > > >> > > The description used for him is still in use today in church
              > > > > > (canon)
              > > > > > > >> law.
              > > > > > > >> > > He belongs to, or is a member of (penes), the chancery for the
              > > > > > > >> > > administration of temporal goods, that is, the money, buildings,
              > > > > > > >> lands,
              > > > > > > >> > > investments, of the cathedral or diocese.
              > > > > > > >> > >
              > > > > > > >> > > Since this is the cathedral church people come from many different
              > > > > > > >> places.
              > > > > > > >> > > I can't read this location any better than you. Julie Michutka has
              > > > > > > >> given
              > > > > > > >> > > reasonable guidance here.
              > > > > > > >> > >
              > > > > > > >> > > Curt B.
              > > > > > > >> > >
              > > > > > > >> > >
              > > > > > > >> > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
              > > > > > > >> > > >
              > > > > > > >> > > >
              > > > > > > >> > >
              > > > > > > >>
              > > > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22655-31886-28?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJM:n1505507877
              > > > > > > >> > > >
              > > > > > > >> > > > Right page, last entry.
              > > > > > > >> > > > I need to know what "(penes?) excels camera cancellista" in
              > > > > > > >> reference to
              > > > > > > >> > > > the father Georgius.
              > > > > > > >> > > > I get "within the most high room (chancellery?). From reading
              > > > > > the
              > > > > > > >> other
              > > > > > > >> > > > entries, I think this is a job description of some kind.
              > > > > > > >> > > > Under Locus: I read " Ex Wericz". The script is poor and I'm not
              > > > > > > >> certain.
              > > > > > > >> > > > Also LDS have this book under Sv.Martina (part II) as a
              > > > > > location.
              > > > > > > >> Does
              > > > > > > >> > > > anyone know what/where that is?
              > > > > > > >> > > >
              > > > > > > >> > > > Thank you so much for your help,
              > > > > > > >> > > >
              > > > > > > >> > > > Peter M.
              > > > > > > >> > > >
              > > > > > > >> > > >
              > > > > > > >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > > > > >> > > >
              > > > > > > >> > >
              > > > > > > >> > >
              > > > > > > >> > >
              > > > > > > >> >
              > > > > > > >> >
              > > > > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > > > > >> >
              > > > > > > >>
              > > > > > > >>
              > > > > > > >>
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • htcstech
              I have a suspicion that it was Germanicized to Ellenberger. Peter M. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 26, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                I have a suspicion that it was Germanicized to Ellenberger.
                Peter M.

                On 27 February 2013 06:05, CurtB <curt67boc@...> wrote:

                > **
                >
                >
                > Ron,
                > The surname Ellenbogen is surprisingly widespread throughout Central and
                > Eastern Europe. It is particularly found in Jewish families, though not
                > exclusively so. It is today extensive in the U.S. and Israel. No reason to
                > suppose it is associated with a place. It apparently has multiple origins
                > but is thought to have originated as a craft or occupation of carpenter
                > from the name of the tool.
                >
                > Curt B.
                >
                > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" wrote:
                > >
                > > ***His wife, lady Clara, was born (maiden name) Ellenbogen.***
                > >
                > > Lady Clara Elbow? Perhaps she came from Ellenbogen, Bohemia, a fairy
                > tale appearing castle town in the elbow of the river. Today called Locket
                > (elbow) between Karlovy Vary (Karlsbad) and Mariansky Lazne (Marianbad),
                > Czech Republic. Not surprisingly, the town is located in an elbow of the
                > river.
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Peter,
                > > > It says lord Mraffko is on the five member board of administrators of
                > legal chambers. His wife, lady Clara, was born (maiden name)
                > > > Ellenbogen. I am unable to read the place name, though it seems the
                > priest is giving house numbers on this page.
                > > >
                > > > Curt B.
                > > >
                > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Curt,
                > > > > Thank you for clarifying these for me. I am indebted. If you have the
                > > > > patience then I have one more.
                > > > > His first wife has died. He remarries and has a daughter, his last
                > child
                > > > > according to the LDS index of Slovakia.
                > > > > (2nd last entry, right side)
                > > > >
                > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22657-6186-71?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ7:2111960010
                > > > > The description has evolved somewhat. I can pick out certain words,
                > but the
                > > > > context and phraseology eludes me.
                > > > >
                > > > > FYI: It is important to find out as much as possible about him as
                > this
                > > > > newly discovered branch of my ancestors sheds much light on the
                > Galanta
                > > > > branch. I believe that the family still exists in France of which I
                > am
                > > > > waiting confirmation.
                > > > >
                > > > > Peter M.
                > > > >
                > > > > On 26 February 2013 16:58, CurtB wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > > **
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Peter,
                > > > > > The Rex Hung under his son's name means he is named Stephen after
                > St.
                > > > > > Stephen, King of Hungary (rather than St. Stephen, the first
                > Christian
                > > > > > martyr). Excell. Dom. above his name is his noble title; his
                > excellency
                > > > > > lord Mraffko.He is working in law chambers. His place is not
                > necessarily
                > > > > > different from other times, it simply says ex Citt. that is, he
                > lives in
                > > > > > the city (of Bratislava).
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Curt B.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > In the previous listing, he was enobled, but 2 years later his
                > newborn
                > > > > > > Stephanus has 'Rex Hung." added. There is also (? Dom) and the
                > addidtion
                > > > > > of
                > > > > > > Expeditorarus.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22650-11489-70?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
                > > > > > > Locus is quite different as well. Perhaps he moved around a lot?
                > > > > > > Peter M.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > On 26 February 2013 14:15, htcstech wrote:
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Georgius had a son Joannes. The entry here is a little more
                > specific,
                > > > > > but
                > > > > > > > almost all abbreviations.
                > > > > > > > Can you please decode this?
                > > > > > > > Also, the locus looks like In-Ved-Zin
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22650-8891-83?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Thanks
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Peter M
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > On 26 February 2013 13:54, CurtB wrote:
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >> **
                > > > > >
                > > > > > > >>
                > > > > > > >>
                > > > > > > >> Peter,
                > > > > > > >> He worked for the chancery of the archbishop, not the
                > cathedral as
                > > > > > such.
                > > > > > > >> It does not say what position he held within it, a minor
                > clerk or a
                > > > > > senior
                > > > > > > >> head.
                > > > > > > >>
                > > > > > > >> Well, yes, he did come to the cathedral to have the child
                > baptized.
                > > > > > It is
                > > > > > > >> not unlikely that the cathedral was his parish church now,
                > but not
                > > > > > > >> necessarily since the register lists him as coming from
                > somewhere
                > > > > > else.
                > > > > > > >>
                > > > > > > >>
                > > > > > > >> Curt B.
                > > > > > > >> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                > > > > > > >> >
                > > > > > > >> > Thank you Curt and Julie!
                > > > > > > >> > Is it correct to assume that he worked for the Cathedral?
                > Or more
                > > > > > likely
                > > > > > > >> > that he came to the Cathedral with his wife for the baptism?
                > > > > > > >> > Peter M.
                > > > > > > >> >
                > > > > > > >> > On 26 February 2013 13:25, CurtB wrote:
                > > > > > > >> >
                > > > > > > >> > > **
                > > > > > > >>
                > > > > > > >> > >
                > > > > > > >> > >
                > > > > > > >> > > Peter,
                > > > > > > >> > > This is the baptismal register of the cathedral church of
                > St.
                > > > > > Martin
                > > > > > > >> in
                > > > > > > >> > > Bratislava..
                > > > > > > >> > >
                > > > > > > >> > > The description used for him is still in use today in
                > church
                > > > > > (canon)
                > > > > > > >> law.
                > > > > > > >> > > He belongs to, or is a member of (penes), the chancery
                > for the
                > > > > > > >> > > administration of temporal goods, that is, the money,
                > buildings,
                > > > > > > >> lands,
                > > > > > > >> > > investments, of the cathedral or diocese.
                > > > > > > >> > >
                > > > > > > >> > > Since this is the cathedral church people come from many
                > different
                > > > > > > >> places.
                > > > > > > >> > > I can't read this location any better than you. Julie
                > Michutka has
                > > > > > > >> given
                > > > > > > >> > > reasonable guidance here.
                > > > > > > >> > >
                > > > > > > >> > > Curt B.
                > > > > > > >> > >
                > > > > > > >> > >
                > > > > > > >> > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                > > > > > > >> > > >
                > > > > > > >> > > >
                > > > > > > >> > >
                > > > > > > >>
                > > > > >
                > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22655-31886-28?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJM:n1505507877
                > > > > > > >> > > >
                > > > > > > >> > > > Right page, last entry.
                > > > > > > >> > > > I need to know what "(penes?) excels camera
                > cancellista" in
                > > > > > > >> reference to
                > > > > > > >> > > > the father Georgius.
                > > > > > > >> > > > I get "within the most high room (chancellery?). From
                > reading
                > > > > > the
                > > > > > > >> other
                > > > > > > >> > > > entries, I think this is a job description of some kind.
                > > > > > > >> > > > Under Locus: I read " Ex Wericz". The script is poor
                > and I'm not
                > > > > > > >> certain.
                > > > > > > >> > > > Also LDS have this book under Sv.Martina (part II) as a
                > > > > > location.
                > > > > > > >> Does
                > > > > > > >> > > > anyone know what/where that is?
                > > > > > > >> > > >
                > > > > > > >> > > > Thank you so much for your help,
                > > > > > > >> > > >
                > > > > > > >> > > > Peter M.
                > > > > > > >> > > >
                > > > > > > >> > > >
                > > > > > > >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > > > > >> > > >
                > > > > > > >> > >
                > > > > > > >> > >
                > > > > > > >> > >
                > > > > > > >> >
                > > > > > > >> >
                > > > > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > > > > >> >
                > > > > > > >>
                > > > > > > >>
                > > > > > > >>
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ron
                Ellenbogen is already German, so it may have been changed, but not Germanized to Ellenberger. That is a small point, but perhaps worth noting. Ron
                Message 7 of 21 , Feb 26, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  Ellenbogen is already German, so it may have been changed, but not Germanized to Ellenberger. That is a small point, but perhaps worth noting.

                  Ron

                  --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I have a suspicion that it was Germanicized to Ellenberger.
                  > Peter M.
                  >
                  > On 27 February 2013 06:05, CurtB <curt67boc@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > **
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Ron,
                  > > The surname Ellenbogen is surprisingly widespread throughout Central and
                  > > Eastern Europe. It is particularly found in Jewish families, though not
                  > > exclusively so. It is today extensive in the U.S. and Israel. No reason to
                  > > suppose it is associated with a place. It apparently has multiple origins
                  > > but is thought to have originated as a craft or occupation of carpenter
                  > > from the name of the tool.
                  > >
                  > > Curt B.
                  > >
                  > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > ***His wife, lady Clara, was born (maiden name) Ellenbogen.***
                  > > >
                  > > > Lady Clara Elbow? Perhaps she came from Ellenbogen, Bohemia, a fairy
                  > > tale appearing castle town in the elbow of the river. Today called Locket
                  > > (elbow) between Karlovy Vary (Karlsbad) and Mariansky Lazne (Marianbad),
                  > > Czech Republic. Not surprisingly, the town is located in an elbow of the
                  > > river.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Peter,
                  > > > > It says lord Mraffko is on the five member board of administrators of
                  > > legal chambers. His wife, lady Clara, was born (maiden name)
                  > > > > Ellenbogen. I am unable to read the place name, though it seems the
                  > > priest is giving house numbers on this page.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Curt B.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Curt,
                  > > > > > Thank you for clarifying these for me. I am indebted. If you have the
                  > > > > > patience then I have one more.
                  > > > > > His first wife has died. He remarries and has a daughter, his last
                  > > child
                  > > > > > according to the LDS index of Slovakia.
                  > > > > > (2nd last entry, right side)
                  > > > > >
                  > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22657-6186-71?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ7:2111960010
                  > > > > > The description has evolved somewhat. I can pick out certain words,
                  > > but the
                  > > > > > context and phraseology eludes me.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > FYI: It is important to find out as much as possible about him as
                  > > this
                  > > > > > newly discovered branch of my ancestors sheds much light on the
                  > > Galanta
                  > > > > > branch. I believe that the family still exists in France of which I
                  > > am
                  > > > > > waiting confirmation.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Peter M.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > On 26 February 2013 16:58, CurtB wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > > **
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Peter,
                  > > > > > > The Rex Hung under his son's name means he is named Stephen after
                  > > St.
                  > > > > > > Stephen, King of Hungary (rather than St. Stephen, the first
                  > > Christian
                  > > > > > > martyr). Excell. Dom. above his name is his noble title; his
                  > > excellency
                  > > > > > > lord Mraffko.He is working in law chambers. His place is not
                  > > necessarily
                  > > > > > > different from other times, it simply says ex Citt. that is, he
                  > > lives in
                  > > > > > > the city (of Bratislava).
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Curt B.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > In the previous listing, he was enobled, but 2 years later his
                  > > newborn
                  > > > > > > > Stephanus has 'Rex Hung." added. There is also (? Dom) and the
                  > > addidtion
                  > > > > > > of
                  > > > > > > > Expeditorarus.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22650-11489-70?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
                  > > > > > > > Locus is quite different as well. Perhaps he moved around a lot?
                  > > > > > > > Peter M.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > On 26 February 2013 14:15, htcstech wrote:
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > Georgius had a son Joannes. The entry here is a little more
                  > > specific,
                  > > > > > > but
                  > > > > > > > > almost all abbreviations.
                  > > > > > > > > Can you please decode this?
                  > > > > > > > > Also, the locus looks like In-Ved-Zin
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22650-8891-83?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > Thanks
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > Peter M
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > On 26 February 2013 13:54, CurtB wrote:
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > >> **
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > >>
                  > > > > > > > >>
                  > > > > > > > >> Peter,
                  > > > > > > > >> He worked for the chancery of the archbishop, not the
                  > > cathedral as
                  > > > > > > such.
                  > > > > > > > >> It does not say what position he held within it, a minor
                  > > clerk or a
                  > > > > > > senior
                  > > > > > > > >> head.
                  > > > > > > > >>
                  > > > > > > > >> Well, yes, he did come to the cathedral to have the child
                  > > baptized.
                  > > > > > > It is
                  > > > > > > > >> not unlikely that the cathedral was his parish church now,
                  > > but not
                  > > > > > > > >> necessarily since the register lists him as coming from
                  > > somewhere
                  > > > > > > else.
                  > > > > > > > >>
                  > > > > > > > >>
                  > > > > > > > >> Curt B.
                  > > > > > > > >> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                  > > > > > > > >> >
                  > > > > > > > >> > Thank you Curt and Julie!
                  > > > > > > > >> > Is it correct to assume that he worked for the Cathedral?
                  > > Or more
                  > > > > > > likely
                  > > > > > > > >> > that he came to the Cathedral with his wife for the baptism?
                  > > > > > > > >> > Peter M.
                  > > > > > > > >> >
                  > > > > > > > >> > On 26 February 2013 13:25, CurtB wrote:
                  > > > > > > > >> >
                  > > > > > > > >> > > **
                  > > > > > > > >>
                  > > > > > > > >> > >
                  > > > > > > > >> > >
                  > > > > > > > >> > > Peter,
                  > > > > > > > >> > > This is the baptismal register of the cathedral church of
                  > > St.
                  > > > > > > Martin
                  > > > > > > > >> in
                  > > > > > > > >> > > Bratislava..
                  > > > > > > > >> > >
                  > > > > > > > >> > > The description used for him is still in use today in
                  > > church
                  > > > > > > (canon)
                  > > > > > > > >> law.
                  > > > > > > > >> > > He belongs to, or is a member of (penes), the chancery
                  > > for the
                  > > > > > > > >> > > administration of temporal goods, that is, the money,
                  > > buildings,
                  > > > > > > > >> lands,
                  > > > > > > > >> > > investments, of the cathedral or diocese.
                  > > > > > > > >> > >
                  > > > > > > > >> > > Since this is the cathedral church people come from many
                  > > different
                  > > > > > > > >> places.
                  > > > > > > > >> > > I can't read this location any better than you. Julie
                  > > Michutka has
                  > > > > > > > >> given
                  > > > > > > > >> > > reasonable guidance here.
                  > > > > > > > >> > >
                  > > > > > > > >> > > Curt B.
                  > > > > > > > >> > >
                  > > > > > > > >> > >
                  > > > > > > > >> > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                  > > > > > > > >> > > >
                  > > > > > > > >> > > >
                  > > > > > > > >> > >
                  > > > > > > > >>
                  > > > > > >
                  > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22655-31886-28?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJM:n1505507877
                  > > > > > > > >> > > >
                  > > > > > > > >> > > > Right page, last entry.
                  > > > > > > > >> > > > I need to know what "(penes?) excels camera
                  > > cancellista" in
                  > > > > > > > >> reference to
                  > > > > > > > >> > > > the father Georgius.
                  > > > > > > > >> > > > I get "within the most high room (chancellery?). From
                  > > reading
                  > > > > > > the
                  > > > > > > > >> other
                  > > > > > > > >> > > > entries, I think this is a job description of some kind.
                  > > > > > > > >> > > > Under Locus: I read " Ex Wericz". The script is poor
                  > > and I'm not
                  > > > > > > > >> certain.
                  > > > > > > > >> > > > Also LDS have this book under Sv.Martina (part II) as a
                  > > > > > > location.
                  > > > > > > > >> Does
                  > > > > > > > >> > > > anyone know what/where that is?
                  > > > > > > > >> > > >
                  > > > > > > > >> > > > Thank you so much for your help,
                  > > > > > > > >> > > >
                  > > > > > > > >> > > > Peter M.
                  > > > > > > > >> > > >
                  > > > > > > > >> > > >
                  > > > > > > > >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > > > > > >> > > >
                  > > > > > > > >> > >
                  > > > > > > > >> > >
                  > > > > > > > >> > >
                  > > > > > > > >> >
                  > > > > > > > >> >
                  > > > > > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > > > > > >> >
                  > > > > > > > >>
                  > > > > > > > >>
                  > > > > > > > >>
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • CurtB
                  Peter, Ellenbogen is already germanicized . Berger and bogen are two quite different German words. Curt B.
                  Message 8 of 21 , Feb 26, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Peter,
                    Ellenbogen is already 'germanicized'. Berger and bogen are two quite different German words.

                    Curt B.

                    --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I have a suspicion that it was Germanicized to Ellenberger.
                    > Peter M.
                    >
                    > On 27 February 2013 06:05, CurtB <curt67boc@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > **
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Ron,
                    > > The surname Ellenbogen is surprisingly widespread throughout Central and
                    > > Eastern Europe. It is particularly found in Jewish families, though not
                    > > exclusively so. It is today extensive in the U.S. and Israel. No reason to
                    > > suppose it is associated with a place. It apparently has multiple origins
                    > > but is thought to have originated as a craft or occupation of carpenter
                    > > from the name of the tool.
                    > >
                    > > Curt B.
                    > >
                    > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > ***His wife, lady Clara, was born (maiden name) Ellenbogen.***
                    > > >
                    > > > Lady Clara Elbow? Perhaps she came from Ellenbogen, Bohemia, a fairy
                    > > tale appearing castle town in the elbow of the river. Today called Locket
                    > > (elbow) between Karlovy Vary (Karlsbad) and Mariansky Lazne (Marianbad),
                    > > Czech Republic. Not surprisingly, the town is located in an elbow of the
                    > > river.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Peter,
                    > > > > It says lord Mraffko is on the five member board of administrators of
                    > > legal chambers. His wife, lady Clara, was born (maiden name)
                    > > > > Ellenbogen. I am unable to read the place name, though it seems the
                    > > priest is giving house numbers on this page.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Curt B.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Curt,
                    > > > > > Thank you for clarifying these for me. I am indebted. If you have the
                    > > > > > patience then I have one more.
                    > > > > > His first wife has died. He remarries and has a daughter, his last
                    > > child
                    > > > > > according to the LDS index of Slovakia.
                    > > > > > (2nd last entry, right side)
                    > > > > >
                    > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22657-6186-71?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ7:2111960010
                    > > > > > The description has evolved somewhat. I can pick out certain words,
                    > > but the
                    > > > > > context and phraseology eludes me.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > FYI: It is important to find out as much as possible about him as
                    > > this
                    > > > > > newly discovered branch of my ancestors sheds much light on the
                    > > Galanta
                    > > > > > branch. I believe that the family still exists in France of which I
                    > > am
                    > > > > > waiting confirmation.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Peter M.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > On 26 February 2013 16:58, CurtB wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > **
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Peter,
                    > > > > > > The Rex Hung under his son's name means he is named Stephen after
                    > > St.
                    > > > > > > Stephen, King of Hungary (rather than St. Stephen, the first
                    > > Christian
                    > > > > > > martyr). Excell. Dom. above his name is his noble title; his
                    > > excellency
                    > > > > > > lord Mraffko.He is working in law chambers. His place is not
                    > > necessarily
                    > > > > > > different from other times, it simply says ex Citt. that is, he
                    > > lives in
                    > > > > > > the city (of Bratislava).
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Curt B.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > In the previous listing, he was enobled, but 2 years later his
                    > > newborn
                    > > > > > > > Stephanus has 'Rex Hung." added. There is also (? Dom) and the
                    > > addidtion
                    > > > > > > of
                    > > > > > > > Expeditorarus.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22650-11489-70?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
                    > > > > > > > Locus is quite different as well. Perhaps he moved around a lot?
                    > > > > > > > Peter M.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > On 26 February 2013 14:15, htcstech wrote:
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Georgius had a son Joannes. The entry here is a little more
                    > > specific,
                    > > > > > > but
                    > > > > > > > > almost all abbreviations.
                    > > > > > > > > Can you please decode this?
                    > > > > > > > > Also, the locus looks like In-Ved-Zin
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22650-8891-83?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Thanks
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Peter M
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > On 26 February 2013 13:54, CurtB wrote:
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >> **
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >>
                    > > > > > > > >>
                    > > > > > > > >> Peter,
                    > > > > > > > >> He worked for the chancery of the archbishop, not the
                    > > cathedral as
                    > > > > > > such.
                    > > > > > > > >> It does not say what position he held within it, a minor
                    > > clerk or a
                    > > > > > > senior
                    > > > > > > > >> head.
                    > > > > > > > >>
                    > > > > > > > >> Well, yes, he did come to the cathedral to have the child
                    > > baptized.
                    > > > > > > It is
                    > > > > > > > >> not unlikely that the cathedral was his parish church now,
                    > > but not
                    > > > > > > > >> necessarily since the register lists him as coming from
                    > > somewhere
                    > > > > > > else.
                    > > > > > > > >>
                    > > > > > > > >>
                    > > > > > > > >> Curt B.
                    > > > > > > > >> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                    > > > > > > > >> >
                    > > > > > > > >> > Thank you Curt and Julie!
                    > > > > > > > >> > Is it correct to assume that he worked for the Cathedral?
                    > > Or more
                    > > > > > > likely
                    > > > > > > > >> > that he came to the Cathedral with his wife for the baptism?
                    > > > > > > > >> > Peter M.
                    > > > > > > > >> >
                    > > > > > > > >> > On 26 February 2013 13:25, CurtB wrote:
                    > > > > > > > >> >
                    > > > > > > > >> > > **
                    > > > > > > > >>
                    > > > > > > > >> > >
                    > > > > > > > >> > >
                    > > > > > > > >> > > Peter,
                    > > > > > > > >> > > This is the baptismal register of the cathedral church of
                    > > St.
                    > > > > > > Martin
                    > > > > > > > >> in
                    > > > > > > > >> > > Bratislava..
                    > > > > > > > >> > >
                    > > > > > > > >> > > The description used for him is still in use today in
                    > > church
                    > > > > > > (canon)
                    > > > > > > > >> law.
                    > > > > > > > >> > > He belongs to, or is a member of (penes), the chancery
                    > > for the
                    > > > > > > > >> > > administration of temporal goods, that is, the money,
                    > > buildings,
                    > > > > > > > >> lands,
                    > > > > > > > >> > > investments, of the cathedral or diocese.
                    > > > > > > > >> > >
                    > > > > > > > >> > > Since this is the cathedral church people come from many
                    > > different
                    > > > > > > > >> places.
                    > > > > > > > >> > > I can't read this location any better than you. Julie
                    > > Michutka has
                    > > > > > > > >> given
                    > > > > > > > >> > > reasonable guidance here.
                    > > > > > > > >> > >
                    > > > > > > > >> > > Curt B.
                    > > > > > > > >> > >
                    > > > > > > > >> > >
                    > > > > > > > >> > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                    > > > > > > > >> > > >
                    > > > > > > > >> > > >
                    > > > > > > > >> > >
                    > > > > > > > >>
                    > > > > > >
                    > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22655-31886-28?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJM:n1505507877
                    > > > > > > > >> > > >
                    > > > > > > > >> > > > Right page, last entry.
                    > > > > > > > >> > > > I need to know what "(penes?) excels camera
                    > > cancellista" in
                    > > > > > > > >> reference to
                    > > > > > > > >> > > > the father Georgius.
                    > > > > > > > >> > > > I get "within the most high room (chancellery?). From
                    > > reading
                    > > > > > > the
                    > > > > > > > >> other
                    > > > > > > > >> > > > entries, I think this is a job description of some kind.
                    > > > > > > > >> > > > Under Locus: I read " Ex Wericz". The script is poor
                    > > and I'm not
                    > > > > > > > >> certain.
                    > > > > > > > >> > > > Also LDS have this book under Sv.Martina (part II) as a
                    > > > > > > location.
                    > > > > > > > >> Does
                    > > > > > > > >> > > > anyone know what/where that is?
                    > > > > > > > >> > > >
                    > > > > > > > >> > > > Thank you so much for your help,
                    > > > > > > > >> > > >
                    > > > > > > > >> > > > Peter M.
                    > > > > > > > >> > > >
                    > > > > > > > >> > > >
                    > > > > > > > >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > > > > > >> > > >
                    > > > > > > > >> > >
                    > > > > > > > >> > >
                    > > > > > > > >> > >
                    > > > > > > > >> >
                    > > > > > > > >> >
                    > > > > > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > > > > > >> >
                    > > > > > > > >>
                    > > > > > > > >>
                    > > > > > > > >>
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • htcstech
                    My goof. I shouldn t rely on my memory in the early hours. It is Clara Ellenbergerin (1795 Budapest - no image to confirm the name), Clara Ellenbogen (1789 -
                    Message 9 of 21 , Feb 26, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      My goof. I shouldn't rely on my memory in the early hours. It is Clara
                      Ellenbergerin (1795 Budapest - no image to confirm the name), Clara
                      Ellenbogen (1789 - Bratislava - St Martina) and finally Elena Carberin
                      (1799 Budapest - no image).
                      I have developed a mistrust of transcribed records and I may be jumping to
                      conclusions.

                      All this new information has happened 'live' over the last 24 hrs, solely
                      based on index searches. I really should be looking at marriage and
                      particularly death records as he (Georgius) could have married 3 times. His
                      first wife was Susanna and I'm reasonably confident that Ellenbogen and
                      Ellenbergerin are the same person. Now, I'm not sure of Elena Carberin, so
                      I may chase that up when I'm in Budapest.

                      Peter M.

                      On 27 February 2013 06:24, CurtB <curt67boc@...> wrote:

                      > **
                      >
                      >
                      > Peter,
                      > Ellenbogen is already 'germanicized'. Berger and bogen are two quite
                      > different German words.
                      >
                      >
                      > Curt B.
                      >
                      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I have a suspicion that it was Germanicized to Ellenberger.
                      > > Peter M.
                      > >
                      > > On 27 February 2013 06:05, CurtB wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > **
                      >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Ron,
                      > > > The surname Ellenbogen is surprisingly widespread throughout Central
                      > and
                      > > > Eastern Europe. It is particularly found in Jewish families, though not
                      > > > exclusively so. It is today extensive in the U.S. and Israel. No
                      > reason to
                      > > > suppose it is associated with a place. It apparently has multiple
                      > origins
                      > > > but is thought to have originated as a craft or occupation of carpenter
                      > > > from the name of the tool.
                      > > >
                      > > > Curt B.
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ***His wife, lady Clara, was born (maiden name) Ellenbogen.***
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Lady Clara Elbow? Perhaps she came from Ellenbogen, Bohemia, a fairy
                      > > > tale appearing castle town in the elbow of the river. Today called
                      > Locket
                      > > > (elbow) between Karlovy Vary (Karlsbad) and Mariansky Lazne
                      > (Marianbad),
                      > > > Czech Republic. Not surprisingly, the town is located in an elbow of
                      > the
                      > > > river.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Peter,
                      > > > > > It says lord Mraffko is on the five member board of administrators
                      > of
                      > > > legal chambers. His wife, lady Clara, was born (maiden name)
                      > > > > > Ellenbogen. I am unable to read the place name, though it seems the
                      > > > priest is giving house numbers on this page.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Curt B.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Curt,
                      > > > > > > Thank you for clarifying these for me. I am indebted. If you
                      > have the
                      > > > > > > patience then I have one more.
                      > > > > > > His first wife has died. He remarries and has a daughter, his
                      > last
                      > > > child
                      > > > > > > according to the LDS index of Slovakia.
                      > > > > > > (2nd last entry, right side)
                      > > > > > >
                      > > >
                      > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22657-6186-71?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ7:2111960010
                      > > > > > > The description has evolved somewhat. I can pick out certain
                      > words,
                      > > > but the
                      > > > > > > context and phraseology eludes me.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > FYI: It is important to find out as much as possible about him as
                      > > > this
                      > > > > > > newly discovered branch of my ancestors sheds much light on the
                      > > > Galanta
                      > > > > > > branch. I believe that the family still exists in France of
                      > which I
                      > > > am
                      > > > > > > waiting confirmation.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Peter M.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > On 26 February 2013 16:58, CurtB wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > **
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Peter,
                      > > > > > > > The Rex Hung under his son's name means he is named Stephen
                      > after
                      > > > St.
                      > > > > > > > Stephen, King of Hungary (rather than St. Stephen, the first
                      > > > Christian
                      > > > > > > > martyr). Excell. Dom. above his name is his noble title; his
                      > > > excellency
                      > > > > > > > lord Mraffko.He is working in law chambers. His place is not
                      > > > necessarily
                      > > > > > > > different from other times, it simply says ex Citt. that is, he
                      > > > lives in
                      > > > > > > > the city (of Bratislava).
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Curt B.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > In the previous listing, he was enobled, but 2 years later
                      > his
                      > > > newborn
                      > > > > > > > > Stephanus has 'Rex Hung." added. There is also (? Dom) and
                      > the
                      > > > addidtion
                      > > > > > > > of
                      > > > > > > > > Expeditorarus.
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > >
                      > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22650-11489-70?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
                      > > > > > > > > Locus is quite different as well. Perhaps he moved around a
                      > lot?
                      > > > > > > > > Peter M.
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > On 26 February 2013 14:15, htcstech wrote:
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > Georgius had a son Joannes. The entry here is a little more
                      > > > specific,
                      > > > > > > > but
                      > > > > > > > > > almost all abbreviations.
                      > > > > > > > > > Can you please decode this?
                      > > > > > > > > > Also, the locus looks like In-Ved-Zin
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > >
                      > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22650-8891-83?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > Thanks
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > Peter M
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > On 26 February 2013 13:54, CurtB wrote:
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >> **
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >>
                      > > > > > > > > >>
                      > > > > > > > > >> Peter,
                      > > > > > > > > >> He worked for the chancery of the archbishop, not the
                      > > > cathedral as
                      > > > > > > > such.
                      > > > > > > > > >> It does not say what position he held within it, a minor
                      > > > clerk or a
                      > > > > > > > senior
                      > > > > > > > > >> head.
                      > > > > > > > > >>
                      > > > > > > > > >> Well, yes, he did come to the cathedral to have the child
                      > > > baptized.
                      > > > > > > > It is
                      > > > > > > > > >> not unlikely that the cathedral was his parish church now,
                      > > > but not
                      > > > > > > > > >> necessarily since the register lists him as coming from
                      > > > somewhere
                      > > > > > > > else.
                      > > > > > > > > >>
                      > > > > > > > > >>
                      > > > > > > > > >> Curt B.
                      > > > > > > > > >> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                      > > > > > > > > >> >
                      > > > > > > > > >> > Thank you Curt and Julie!
                      > > > > > > > > >> > Is it correct to assume that he worked for the
                      > Cathedral?
                      > > > Or more
                      > > > > > > > likely
                      > > > > > > > > >> > that he came to the Cathedral with his wife for the
                      > baptism?
                      > > > > > > > > >> > Peter M.
                      > > > > > > > > >> >
                      > > > > > > > > >> > On 26 February 2013 13:25, CurtB wrote:
                      > > > > > > > > >> >
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > **
                      > > > > > > > > >>
                      > > > > > > > > >> > >
                      > > > > > > > > >> > >
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > Peter,
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > This is the baptismal register of the cathedral
                      > church of
                      > > > St.
                      > > > > > > > Martin
                      > > > > > > > > >> in
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > Bratislava..
                      > > > > > > > > >> > >
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > The description used for him is still in use today in
                      > > > church
                      > > > > > > > (canon)
                      > > > > > > > > >> law.
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > He belongs to, or is a member of (penes), the chancery
                      > > > for the
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > administration of temporal goods, that is, the money,
                      > > > buildings,
                      > > > > > > > > >> lands,
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > investments, of the cathedral or diocese.
                      > > > > > > > > >> > >
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > Since this is the cathedral church people come from
                      > many
                      > > > different
                      > > > > > > > > >> places.
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > I can't read this location any better than you. Julie
                      > > > Michutka has
                      > > > > > > > > >> given
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > reasonable guidance here.
                      > > > > > > > > >> > >
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > Curt B.
                      > > > > > > > > >> > >
                      > > > > > > > > >> > >
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >> > >
                      > > > > > > > > >>
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > >
                      > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22655-31886-28?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJM:n1505507877
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > > Right page, last entry.
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > > I need to know what "(penes?) excels camera
                      > > > cancellista" in
                      > > > > > > > > >> reference to
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > > the father Georgius.
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > > I get "within the most high room (chancellery?).
                      > From
                      > > > reading
                      > > > > > > > the
                      > > > > > > > > >> other
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > > entries, I think this is a job description of some
                      > kind.
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > > Under Locus: I read " Ex Wericz". The script is poor
                      > > > and I'm not
                      > > > > > > > > >> certain.
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > > Also LDS have this book under Sv.Martina (part II)
                      > as a
                      > > > > > > > location.
                      > > > > > > > > >> Does
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > > anyone know what/where that is?
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > > Thank you so much for your help,
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > > Peter M.
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                      > removed]
                      > > > > > > > > >> > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >> > >
                      > > > > > > > > >> > >
                      > > > > > > > > >> > >
                      > > > > > > > > >> >
                      > > > > > > > > >> >
                      > > > > > > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > > > > > > > >> >
                      > > > > > > > > >>
                      > > > > > > > > >>
                      > > > > > > > > >>
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • helene cincebeaux
                      Loket is a simply gorgeous fairy tale castle - i stayed at an inn under the castle and had a ghost experience. If ever you are nearby - dont miss this really
                      Message 10 of 21 , Feb 27, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Loket is a simply gorgeous fairy tale castle - i stayed at an inn under the castle and had a ghost experience. If ever you are nearby - dont miss this really wonderful place

                        helene

                        --- On Tue, 2/26/13, Ron <amiak27@...> wrote:

                        > From: Ron <amiak27@...>
                        > Subject: [S-R] Re: MRAFFKO Latin detail 1775 Bratislava
                        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 12:09 PM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ***His wife, lady Clara, was born (maiden name)
                        > Ellenbogen.***
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Lady Clara Elbow? Perhaps she came from Ellenbogen,
                        > Bohemia, a fairy tale appearing castle town in the elbow of
                        > the river. Today called Locket (elbow) between Karlovy Vary
                        > (Karlsbad) and Mariansky Lazne (Marianbad), Czech Republic.
                        > Not surprisingly, the town is located in an elbow of the
                        > river.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com,
                        > "CurtB" wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Peter,
                        >
                        > > It says lord Mraffko is on the five member board of
                        > administrators of legal chambers. His wife, lady Clara, was
                        > born (maiden name)
                        >
                        > > Ellenbogen. I am unable to read the place name, though
                        > it seems the priest is giving house numbers on this page.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Curt B.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com,
                        > htcstech wrote:
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Curt,
                        >
                        > > > Thank you for clarifying these for me. I am
                        > indebted. If you have the
                        >
                        > > > patience then I have one more.
                        >
                        > > > His first wife has died. He remarries and has a
                        > daughter, his last child
                        >
                        > > > according to the LDS index of Slovakia.
                        >
                        > > > (2nd last entry, right side)
                        >
                        > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22657-6186-71?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ7:2111960010
                        >
                        > > > The description has evolved somewhat. I can pick
                        > out certain words, but the
                        >
                        > > > context and phraseology eludes me.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > FYI: It is important to find out as much as
                        > possible about him as this
                        >
                        > > > newly discovered branch of my ancestors sheds much
                        > light on the Galanta
                        >
                        > > > branch. I believe that the family still exists in
                        > France of which I am
                        >
                        > > > waiting confirmation.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Peter M.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > On 26 February 2013 16:58, CurtB wrote:
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > > **
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > > > > Peter,
                        >
                        > > > > The Rex Hung under his son's name means
                        > he is named Stephen after St.
                        >
                        > > > > Stephen, King of Hungary (rather than St.
                        > Stephen, the first Christian
                        >
                        > > > > martyr). Excell. Dom. above his name is his
                        > noble title; his excellency
                        >
                        > > > > lord Mraffko.He is working in law chambers.
                        > His place is not necessarily
                        >
                        > > > > different from other times, it simply says ex
                        > Citt. that is, he lives in
                        >
                        > > > > the city (of Bratislava).
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > > > > Curt B.
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com,
                        > htcstech wrote:
                        >
                        > > > > >
                        >
                        > > > > > In the previous listing, he was enobled,
                        > but 2 years later his newborn
                        >
                        > > > > > Stephanus has 'Rex Hung."
                        > added. There is also (? Dom) and the addidtion
                        >
                        > > > > of
                        >
                        > > > > > Expeditorarus.
                        >
                        > > > > >
                        >
                        > > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22650-11489-70?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
                        >
                        > > > > > Locus is quite different as well.
                        > Perhaps he moved around a lot?
                        >
                        > > > > > Peter M.
                        >
                        > > > > >
                        >
                        > > > > > On 26 February 2013 14:15, htcstech
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        > > > > >
                        >
                        > > > > > > Georgius had a son Joannes. The
                        > entry here is a little more specific,
                        >
                        > > > > but
                        >
                        > > > > > > almost all abbreviations.
                        >
                        > > > > > > Can you please decode this?
                        >
                        > > > > > > Also, the locus looks like
                        > In-Ved-Zin
                        >
                        > > > > > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >
                        >
                        > > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-22650-8891-83?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJ3:n892102475
                        >
                        > > > > > >
                        >
                        > > > > > > Thanks
                        >
                        > > > > > >
                        >
                        > > > > > > Peter M
                        >
                        > > > > > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >
                        >
                        > > > > > > On 26 February 2013 13:54, CurtB
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        > > > > > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> **
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >>
                        >
                        > > > > > >>
                        >
                        > > > > > >> Peter,
                        >
                        > > > > > >> He worked for the chancery of
                        > the archbishop, not the cathedral as
                        >
                        > > > > such.
                        >
                        > > > > > >> It does not say what position
                        > he held within it, a minor clerk or a
                        >
                        > > > > senior
                        >
                        > > > > > >> head.
                        >
                        > > > > > >>
                        >
                        > > > > > >> Well, yes, he did come to the
                        > cathedral to have the child baptized.
                        >
                        > > > > It is
                        >
                        > > > > > >> not unlikely that the cathedral
                        > was his parish church now, but not
                        >
                        > > > > > >> necessarily since the register
                        > lists him as coming from somewhere
                        >
                        > > > > else.
                        >
                        > > > > > >>
                        >
                        > > > > > >>
                        >
                        > > > > > >> Curt B.
                        >
                        > > > > > >> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com,
                        > htcstech wrote:
                        >
                        > > > > > >> >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > Thank you Curt and Julie!
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > Is it correct to assume
                        > that he worked for the Cathedral? Or more
                        >
                        > > > > likely
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > that he came to the
                        > Cathedral with his wife for the baptism?
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > Peter M.
                        >
                        > > > > > >> >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > On 26 February 2013 13:25,
                        > CurtB wrote:
                        >
                        > > > > > >> >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > **
                        >
                        > > > > > >>
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > Peter,
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > This is the baptismal
                        > register of the cathedral church of St.
                        >
                        > > > > Martin
                        >
                        > > > > > >> in
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > Bratislava..
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > The description used
                        > for him is still in use today in church
                        >
                        > > > > (canon)
                        >
                        > > > > > >> law.
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > He belongs to, or is
                        > a member of (penes), the chancery for the
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > administration of
                        > temporal goods, that is, the money, buildings,
                        >
                        > > > > > >> lands,
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > investments, of the
                        > cathedral or diocese.
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > Since this is the
                        > cathedral church people come from many different
                        >
                        > > > > > >> places.
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > I can't read this
                        > location any better than you. Julie Michutka has
                        >
                        > > > > > >> given
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > reasonable guidance
                        > here.
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > Curt B.
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com,
                        > htcstech wrote:
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >>
                        >
                        > > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22655-31886-28?cc=1554443&wc=M99C-ZJM:n1505507877
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > > Right page, last
                        > entry.
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > > I need to know
                        > what "(penes?) excels camera cancellista" in
                        >
                        > > > > > >> reference to
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > > the father
                        > Georgius.
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > > I get
                        > "within the most high room (chancellery?). From
                        > reading
                        >
                        > > > > the
                        >
                        > > > > > >> other
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > > entries, I think
                        > this is a job description of some kind.
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > > Under Locus: I
                        > read " Ex Wericz". The script is poor and I'm
                        > not
                        >
                        > > > > > >> certain.
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > > Also LDS have
                        > this book under Sv.Martina (part II) as a
                        >
                        > > > > location.
                        >
                        > > > > > >> Does
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > > anyone know
                        > what/where that is?
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > > Thank you so
                        > much for your help,
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > > Peter M.
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > > [Non-text
                        > portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> >
                        >
                        > > > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this
                        > message have been removed]
                        >
                        > > > > > >> >
                        >
                        > > > > > >>
                        >
                        > > > > > >>
                        >
                        > > > > > >>
                        >
                        > > > > > >
                        >
                        > > > > > >
                        >
                        > > > > >
                        >
                        > > > > >
                        >
                        > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have
                        > been removed]
                        >
                        > > > > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        > removed]
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
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