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Re: [S-R] Alias Confusion (3 names)

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  • CurtB
    Eric, In raising the question of the Alias or do name it is important to remember that this was not a uniform practice over time and place, but varied until
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 6, 2013
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      Eric,
      In raising the question of the Alias or "do' name it is important to remember that this was not a uniform practice over time and place, but varied until it disappeared at the beginning of the 20th century.

      That is, it was much more common in small communities that were partially illiterate, oral cultures, and without possessing documents. Their births, deaths, and marriages were simply recorded by clergy in the church books according to what the clergy either 'knew' or the people told them. People did not even remember their birthdays accurately,but they celebrated saint's days which were known through the church calendar.

      Aliases or name changes came about from the case you mention here but also but also following spousal deaths and remarriages. So children of first marriages followed by a death of a father and a mother's remarriage often took on the name of the second father with no formal procedure in place, just custom. It just became too difficult for neighbors to remember what to call which child. My own grandmother was married twice and the children of the first marriage took on the name of her second husband without much question, though within the family we knew the whole story and differentiated them with an alias. Our grandmother's entire family also had a third alias to differentiate it from from another set of rather distant cousins who shared first names. This alias persisted even when the original last name was no longer shared by women who had married and had children.

      Some aliases were taken on by which house one might move into. It was rare to move into a house not inherited in some way so when it happened one might be called by a name of a former family who occupied that home. So a man might be called by neighbors - John Smith who lives in the Zobrak home - and eventually just John Zobrak.

      Some aliases were taken on by men who married a woman in another village and went to live with her family. Since local villagers knew her family but not him, he would just take on her family name.

      Some aliases were taken on by men who married women of different class, or who were owners or heiresses of land when the husband was not.

      And while I have not found a case in church records, it seems not unlikely that, just as in this country presently, people sometimes take on an alias by moving and escaping a bad reputation.:)

      Curt B.

      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "tkejuice1208" wrote:
      >
      > Thanks to all who have provided input. These discussions are always very interesting and I encourage additional input that may be of value. To answer a previous question, I have not yet seen the alias in reverse (Hajducsek, alias Skop).
      >
      > As the wheels continue to turn in my head, I thought of an event that may trigger an alias. Please let know if you can verify such an occurrence or otherwise know this to be true. The scenario is that unwed mother gives birth to child "A" (illeg). Child is baptized with mother's maiden surname. Mother marries and had additional children who carry the surname of the father. Child "A" has mother's maiden surname, but can be associated with the family unit/household that bears the surname of the husband, therefore triggering the alias by association.
      >
      > Thoughts?
      >
    • htcstech
      Thank you Curt! Your explanation summarises the alias events very well. I have an oral history (told in 2012) where some branches of the family were
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 6, 2013
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        Thank you Curt!
        Your explanation summarises the alias events very well.
        I have an oral history (told in 2012) where some branches of the family
        were differentiated by nicknames, though still keeping the family name.
        The first example was of 'Bartosi Marafko' who bought the land owned by
        Bartos and the other, 'Olle Marafko' or 'Marafko Olle' where the maiden
        name was used.
        Neither became aliases or recorded in church books. It was and still is
        used for identification in general conversation as a convenience.

        You raise an interesting point about literacy.
        Most of us have only the church archives to examine where considerable
        spelling variations occurred. If the individual (let's say a marriage pre
        1869) was literate and the scribe wrote the name incorrectly, would he have
        an opportunity to read the entry and suggest correction? Were the entries
        only for the perusal of the priests? Did tax officials have access to these
        records?
        It is difficult to find information regarding schooling from 1770 onwards.
        I understand that there was an education revolution during the
        industrialisation era of 1880 onwards, but prior to that I've only found a
        few references to the advent of Lutheran schools and guilds and the
        establishment of Catholic schools as a reaction to this as part of the
        anti-reformation movement. I think much of this schooling had a lot to do
        with the Estate owners. I know that Esterhazy (the Matyusfold Estate in
        Galanta) built an orphanage which may have also included a school.
        What is known about early schooling?

        Thank you

        Peter M.

        On 7 February 2013 06:35, CurtB <curt67boc@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > Eric,
        > In raising the question of the Alias or "do' name it is important to
        > remember that this was not a uniform practice over time and place, but
        > varied until it disappeared at the beginning of the 20th century.
        >
        > That is, it was much more common in small communities that were partially
        > illiterate, oral cultures, and without possessing documents. Their births,
        > deaths, and marriages were simply recorded by clergy in the church books
        > according to what the clergy either 'knew' or the people told them. People
        > did not even remember their birthdays accurately,but they celebrated
        > saint's days which were known through the church calendar.
        >
        > Aliases or name changes came about from the case you mention here but also
        > but also following spousal deaths and remarriages. So children of first
        > marriages followed by a death of a father and a mother's remarriage often
        > took on the name of the second father with no formal procedure in place,
        > just custom. It just became too difficult for neighbors to remember what to
        > call which child. My own grandmother was married twice and the children of
        > the first marriage took on the name of her second husband without much
        > question, though within the family we knew the whole story and
        > differentiated them with an alias. Our grandmother's entire family also had
        > a third alias to differentiate it from from another set of rather distant
        > cousins who shared first names. This alias persisted even when the original
        > last name was no longer shared by women who had married and had children.
        >
        > Some aliases were taken on by which house one might move into. It was rare
        > to move into a house not inherited in some way so when it happened one
        > might be called by a name of a former family who occupied that home. So a
        > man might be called by neighbors - John Smith who lives in the Zobrak home
        > - and eventually just John Zobrak.
        >
        > Some aliases were taken on by men who married a woman in another village
        > and went to live with her family. Since local villagers knew her family but
        > not him, he would just take on her family name.
        >
        > Some aliases were taken on by men who married women of different class, or
        > who were owners or heiresses of land when the husband was not.
        >
        > And while I have not found a case in church records, it seems not unlikely
        > that, just as in this country presently, people sometimes take on an alias
        > by moving and escaping a bad reputation.:)
        >
        > Curt B.
        >
        >
        > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "tkejuice1208" wrote:
        > >
        > > Thanks to all who have provided input. These discussions are always very
        > interesting and I encourage additional input that may be of value. To
        > answer a previous question, I have not yet seen the alias in reverse
        > (Hajducsek, alias Skop).
        > >
        > > As the wheels continue to turn in my head, I thought of an event that
        > may trigger an alias. Please let know if you can verify such an occurrence
        > or otherwise know this to be true. The scenario is that unwed mother gives
        > birth to child "A" (illeg). Child is baptized with mother's maiden surname.
        > Mother marries and had additional children who carry the surname of the
        > father. Child "A" has mother's maiden surname, but can be associated with
        > the family unit/household that bears the surname of the husband, therefore
        > triggering the alias by association.
        > >
        > > Thoughts?
        > >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • tkejuice1208
        Thanks Curt, Peter and everyone else for your contributions. The dialogue has certainly helped me and will definitely help others prepare research strategies
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 7, 2013
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          Thanks Curt, Peter and everyone else for your contributions. The dialogue has certainly helped me and will definitely help others prepare research strategies aimed at overcoming the alias obstacle. Please feel free to contact me personally with related information.

          All the best,

          Eric Hajducsek



          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
          >
          > Thank you Curt!
          > Your explanation summarises the alias events very well.
          > I have an oral history (told in 2012) where some branches of the family
          > were differentiated by nicknames, though still keeping the family name.
          > The first example was of 'Bartosi Marafko' who bought the land owned by
          > Bartos and the other, 'Olle Marafko' or 'Marafko Olle' where the maiden
          > name was used.
          > Neither became aliases or recorded in church books. It was and still is
          > used for identification in general conversation as a convenience.
          >
          > You raise an interesting point about literacy.
          > Most of us have only the church archives to examine where considerable
          > spelling variations occurred. If the individual (let's say a marriage pre
          > 1869) was literate and the scribe wrote the name incorrectly, would he have
          > an opportunity to read the entry and suggest correction? Were the entries
          > only for the perusal of the priests? Did tax officials have access to these
          > records?
          > It is difficult to find information regarding schooling from 1770 onwards.
          > I understand that there was an education revolution during the
          > industrialisation era of 1880 onwards, but prior to that I've only found a
          > few references to the advent of Lutheran schools and guilds and the
          > establishment of Catholic schools as a reaction to this as part of the
          > anti-reformation movement. I think much of this schooling had a lot to do
          > with the Estate owners. I know that Esterhazy (the Matyusfold Estate in
          > Galanta) built an orphanage which may have also included a school.
          > What is known about early schooling?
          >
          > Thank you
          >
          > Peter M.
          >
          > On 7 February 2013 06:35, CurtB wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > > Eric,
          > > In raising the question of the Alias or "do' name it is important to
          > > remember that this was not a uniform practice over time and place, but
          > > varied until it disappeared at the beginning of the 20th century.
          > >
          > > That is, it was much more common in small communities that were partially
          > > illiterate, oral cultures, and without possessing documents. Their births,
          > > deaths, and marriages were simply recorded by clergy in the church books
          > > according to what the clergy either 'knew' or the people told them. People
          > > did not even remember their birthdays accurately,but they celebrated
          > > saint's days which were known through the church calendar.
          > >
          > > Aliases or name changes came about from the case you mention here but also
          > > but also following spousal deaths and remarriages. So children of first
          > > marriages followed by a death of a father and a mother's remarriage often
          > > took on the name of the second father with no formal procedure in place,
          > > just custom. It just became too difficult for neighbors to remember what to
          > > call which child. My own grandmother was married twice and the children of
          > > the first marriage took on the name of her second husband without much
          > > question, though within the family we knew the whole story and
          > > differentiated them with an alias. Our grandmother's entire family also had
          > > a third alias to differentiate it from from another set of rather distant
          > > cousins who shared first names. This alias persisted even when the original
          > > last name was no longer shared by women who had married and had children.
          > >
          > > Some aliases were taken on by which house one might move into. It was rare
          > > to move into a house not inherited in some way so when it happened one
          > > might be called by a name of a former family who occupied that home. So a
          > > man might be called by neighbors - John Smith who lives in the Zobrak home
          > > - and eventually just John Zobrak.
          > >
          > > Some aliases were taken on by men who married a woman in another village
          > > and went to live with her family. Since local villagers knew her family but
          > > not him, he would just take on her family name.
          > >
          > > Some aliases were taken on by men who married women of different class, or
          > > who were owners or heiresses of land when the husband was not.
          > >
          > > And while I have not found a case in church records, it seems not unlikely
          > > that, just as in this country presently, people sometimes take on an alias
          > > by moving and escaping a bad reputation.:)
          > >
          > > Curt B.
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "tkejuice1208" wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Thanks to all who have provided input. These discussions are always very
          > > interesting and I encourage additional input that may be of value. To
          > > answer a previous question, I have not yet seen the alias in reverse
          > > (Hajducsek, alias Skop).
          > > >
          > > > As the wheels continue to turn in my head, I thought of an event that
          > > may trigger an alias. Please let know if you can verify such an occurrence
          > > or otherwise know this to be true. The scenario is that unwed mother gives
          > > birth to child "A" (illeg). Child is baptized with mother's maiden surname.
          > > Mother marries and had additional children who carry the surname of the
          > > father. Child "A" has mother's maiden surname, but can be associated with
          > > the family unit/household that bears the surname of the husband, therefore
          > > triggering the alias by association.
          > > >
          > > > Thoughts?
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Zuzana
          Hi, after my experience alias or also known as... are nicknames.They were necessary in each willage because of so many namesakes. I can imagine 3-4 Mathias
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 18, 2013
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            Hi,
            after my experience "alias" or "also known as..." are nicknames.They were necessary in each willage because of so many namesakes. I can imagine 3-4 Mathias Skop in one willage, so they call him also Kuhar or Hajducsek because his next door neighbour was Kuhar or Hajducsek,or his mother/Grandmother maidenname was Kuhar or Hajducsek. All nicknames had some reason.
            By the way :almost every Slovak willage had writer/notarius who could write Latin and Hungarian. Priests usually did not make recording.
            Zuzana (born and grew up in Slovakia)

            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" <curt67boc@...> wrote:
            >
            > Peter & Eric,
            > Careful here translating the Latin.
            >
            > The text says that 'this day was baptized Joannes the son of Mathias Skop, also known as Kuhar or (more often) Hajducsek.'
            >
            > So the priest is recording the family name as Skop, but also indicating they using two alias names. The vel here is indeterminate and probably just means 'or' but it does not indicate a name preference, and certainly not the primary name, which is Skop.
            >
            > Curt B.
            >
            > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello Eric,
            > >
            > > "Does Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been
            > > dropped in favor of Hajducsek going forward? Might he have been born simply
            > > as Andras Skop? Or might the use of Hajducsek have begun in previous
            > > generations?"
            > >
            > > The 'vel' in the 1795 record is Latin and translates to 'or' but also has a
            > > meaning 'in particular'. So the priest at the time recorded the original
            > > family name as originally 'Hajducsek'. The 1847 record shows that 'Skop'
            > > and 'Hajducsek' were still linked, but no mention of 'Kuhar'. This shows
            > > that there is some consistency within the records, at least as far as the
            > > priest(s)/scribes were consistent. The 'Hajducsek' name appearing as early
            > > as 1785 in the nearby village of Pol'ov cements that name as the original.
            > > I'm presuming that there was no 'Skop' alias in that record?
            > > So we can't say that one name took over the other at this stage, but the
            > > family wanted to be known by both names, so you need to follow the Skop and
            > > Hajducsek names from at least 1795 onwards.
            > >
            > > Joannes, son of Mathias, born in June 14th 1795 would of been 23 at the
            > > time of Andras's birth. Andras could be Joannes's son, or brother.
            > > As for Mathias's alias madness, I'll email you directly on possibilities.
            > >
            > > Peter M.
            > >
            > > On 5 February 2013 06:16, tkejuice1208 wrote:
            > >
            > > > **
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Hello all. After a year of some fairly intense research and a lot of
            > > > confusion, I am reaching out for assistance. The subject of the research is
            > > > Andras Hajducsek from Saca, a village a short distance south / southwest of
            > > > Kosice. The surname was not a popular one in Saca or the neighboring
            > > > villages of Mala Ida and Pol'ov so I do not believe that there was more
            > > > than one adult Andras Hajducsek of the same approximate age within my
            > > > window of research. Searching LDS records from Roman Catholic parishes in
            > > > the area, I have only been able to locate marriage and death records for
            > > > Andras. The marriage record from 1/28/1846 shows a 24 year old groom and
            > > > his 20 year old bride Anna Krisztianko from Saca. This places his year of
            > > > birth at 1821 or 1822. His death record on 1/24/1881 shows his widow Anna
            > > > Krisztanko and lists his age at 63. This places his YOB at 1817 or 1818. I
            > > > have not been able to locate his baptismal record despite searching RC
            > > > records in several area villages across all years 1815 â€" 1825.
            > > >
            > > > My first thought is that Andras Hajducsek and family may have migrated
            > > > from another village but the surname, as far as I can tell, appears in the
            > > > area as early as 1785 in Pol'ov. Still, I cannot document his birth and
            > > > parentage.
            > > >
            > > > I am worried that this research is being complicated by aliases. Andras
            > > > and Anna had a son (Andras) on 8/27/1847 in Saca. The name of the father
            > > > was recorded as Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop. This connection
            > > > to the Skop surname is further complicated by a possible relative from the
            > > > late 1700's whose name was recorded as Mathias Skop, alias Kuhar vel (I
            > > > think it is "vel") Hajducsek on the record from 5/14/1795 that I have
            > > > linked to:
            > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22646-26414-74?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-R7W:n1744020469
            > > >
            > > > I have always been confused by the use of the alias in terms of which is
            > > > the old name and which carries forward, but the apparent use of three
            > > > surnames has created a nightmare. I have never seen three surnames recorded
            > > > for 1 person and cannot begin to make sense of it.
            > > >
            > > > Since I don't know that Mathias and Andras were related, I am focusing on
            > > > establishing the Hajducsek Skop connection. Does Hajducsek Andras maskep
            > > > (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been dropped in favor of Hajducsek
            > > > going forward? Might he have been born simply as Andras Skop? Or might the
            > > > use of Hajducsek have begun in previous generations?
            > > >
            > > > Can anyone explain Mathias and his alias madness???
            > > >
            > > > Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
            > > >
            > > > Thank you!
            > > >
            > > > Eric Hajducsek
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
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