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Re: [S-R] Alias Confusion (3 names)

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  • htcstech
    Hello Eric, Does Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been dropped in favor of Hajducsek going forward? Might he have been born simply
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 4, 2013
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      Hello Eric,

      "Does Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been
      dropped in favor of Hajducsek going forward? Might he have been born simply
      as Andras Skop? Or might the use of Hajducsek have begun in previous
      generations?"

      The 'vel' in the 1795 record is Latin and translates to 'or' but also has a
      meaning 'in particular'. So the priest at the time recorded the original
      family name as originally 'Hajducsek'. The 1847 record shows that 'Skop'
      and 'Hajducsek' were still linked, but no mention of 'Kuhar'. This shows
      that there is some consistency within the records, at least as far as the
      priest(s)/scribes were consistent. The 'Hajducsek' name appearing as early
      as 1785 in the nearby village of Pol'ov cements that name as the original.
      I'm presuming that there was no 'Skop' alias in that record?
      So we can't say that one name took over the other at this stage, but the
      family wanted to be known by both names, so you need to follow the Skop and
      Hajducsek names from at least 1795 onwards.

      Joannes, son of Mathias, born in June 14th 1795 would of been 23 at the
      time of Andras's birth. Andras could be Joannes's son, or brother.
      As for Mathias's alias madness, I'll email you directly on possibilities.

      Peter M.

      On 5 February 2013 06:16, tkejuice1208 <tkejuice1208@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > Hello all. After a year of some fairly intense research and a lot of
      > confusion, I am reaching out for assistance. The subject of the research is
      > Andras Hajducsek from Saca, a village a short distance south / southwest of
      > Kosice. The surname was not a popular one in Saca or the neighboring
      > villages of Mala Ida and Pol'ov so I do not believe that there was more
      > than one adult Andras Hajducsek of the same approximate age within my
      > window of research. Searching LDS records from Roman Catholic parishes in
      > the area, I have only been able to locate marriage and death records for
      > Andras. The marriage record from 1/28/1846 shows a 24 year old groom and
      > his 20 year old bride Anna Krisztianko from Saca. This places his year of
      > birth at 1821 or 1822. His death record on 1/24/1881 shows his widow Anna
      > Krisztanko and lists his age at 63. This places his YOB at 1817 or 1818. I
      > have not been able to locate his baptismal record despite searching RC
      > records in several area villages across all years 1815 – 1825.
      >
      > My first thought is that Andras Hajducsek and family may have migrated
      > from another village but the surname, as far as I can tell, appears in the
      > area as early as 1785 in Pol'ov. Still, I cannot document his birth and
      > parentage.
      >
      > I am worried that this research is being complicated by aliases. Andras
      > and Anna had a son (Andras) on 8/27/1847 in Saca. The name of the father
      > was recorded as Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop. This connection
      > to the Skop surname is further complicated by a possible relative from the
      > late 1700's whose name was recorded as Mathias Skop, alias Kuhar vel (I
      > think it is "vel") Hajducsek on the record from 5/14/1795 that I have
      > linked to:
      > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22646-26414-74?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-R7W:n1744020469
      >
      > I have always been confused by the use of the alias in terms of which is
      > the old name and which carries forward, but the apparent use of three
      > surnames has created a nightmare. I have never seen three surnames recorded
      > for 1 person and cannot begin to make sense of it.
      >
      > Since I don't know that Mathias and Andras were related, I am focusing on
      > establishing the Hajducsek Skop connection. Does Hajducsek Andras maskep
      > (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been dropped in favor of Hajducsek
      > going forward? Might he have been born simply as Andras Skop? Or might the
      > use of Hajducsek have begun in previous generations?
      >
      > Can anyone explain Mathias and his alias madness???
      >
      > Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
      >
      > Thank you!
      >
      > Eric Hajducsek
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • deeellessbee
      Peter, if it s something that can be shared, I too would be interested in hearing your thoughts on Matthias alias madness . While I have the basics of (the
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 4, 2013
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        Peter, if it's something that can be shared, I too would be interested in hearing your thoughts on Matthias' "alias madness". While I have the basics of (the "why" of) the alias name down, it still sometime confuses me and I still don't know which name was which in my family. So threads about aliases always catch my eye and I am interested in learning as much as I can about them.

        Thanks,
        Debbie

        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
        >
        > Hello Eric,
        >
        > "Does Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been
        > dropped in favor of Hajducsek going forward? Might he have been born simply
        > as Andras Skop? Or might the use of Hajducsek have begun in previous
        > generations?"
        >
        > The 'vel' in the 1795 record is Latin and translates to 'or' but also has a
        > meaning 'in particular'. So the priest at the time recorded the original
        > family name as originally 'Hajducsek'. The 1847 record shows that 'Skop'
        > and 'Hajducsek' were still linked, but no mention of 'Kuhar'. This shows
        > that there is some consistency within the records, at least as far as the
        > priest(s)/scribes were consistent. The 'Hajducsek' name appearing as early
        > as 1785 in the nearby village of Pol'ov cements that name as the original.
        > I'm presuming that there was no 'Skop' alias in that record?
        > So we can't say that one name took over the other at this stage, but the
        > family wanted to be known by both names, so you need to follow the Skop and
        > Hajducsek names from at least 1795 onwards.
        >
        > Joannes, son of Mathias, born in June 14th 1795 would of been 23 at the
        > time of Andras's birth. Andras could be Joannes's son, or brother.
        > As for Mathias's alias madness, I'll email you directly on possibilities.
        >
        > Peter M.
        >
        > On 5 February 2013 06:16, tkejuice1208 wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > > Hello all. After a year of some fairly intense research and a lot of
        > > confusion, I am reaching out for assistance. The subject of the research is
        > > Andras Hajducsek from Saca, a village a short distance south / southwest of
        > > Kosice. The surname was not a popular one in Saca or the neighboring
        > > villages of Mala Ida and Pol'ov so I do not believe that there was more
        > > than one adult Andras Hajducsek of the same approximate age within my
        > > window of research. Searching LDS records from Roman Catholic parishes in
        > > the area, I have only been able to locate marriage and death records for
        > > Andras. The marriage record from 1/28/1846 shows a 24 year old groom and
        > > his 20 year old bride Anna Krisztianko from Saca. This places his year of
        > > birth at 1821 or 1822. His death record on 1/24/1881 shows his widow Anna
        > > Krisztanko and lists his age at 63. This places his YOB at 1817 or 1818. I
        > > have not been able to locate his baptismal record despite searching RC
        > > records in several area villages across all years 1815 â€" 1825.
        > >
        > > My first thought is that Andras Hajducsek and family may have migrated
        > > from another village but the surname, as far as I can tell, appears in the
        > > area as early as 1785 in Pol'ov. Still, I cannot document his birth and
        > > parentage.
        > >
        > > I am worried that this research is being complicated by aliases. Andras
        > > and Anna had a son (Andras) on 8/27/1847 in Saca. The name of the father
        > > was recorded as Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop. This connection
        > > to the Skop surname is further complicated by a possible relative from the
        > > late 1700's whose name was recorded as Mathias Skop, alias Kuhar vel (I
        > > think it is "vel") Hajducsek on the record from 5/14/1795 that I have
        > > linked to:
        > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22646-26414-74?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-R7W:n1744020469
        > >
        > > I have always been confused by the use of the alias in terms of which is
        > > the old name and which carries forward, but the apparent use of three
        > > surnames has created a nightmare. I have never seen three surnames recorded
        > > for 1 person and cannot begin to make sense of it.
        > >
        > > Since I don't know that Mathias and Andras were related, I am focusing on
        > > establishing the Hajducsek Skop connection. Does Hajducsek Andras maskep
        > > (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been dropped in favor of Hajducsek
        > > going forward? Might he have been born simply as Andras Skop? Or might the
        > > use of Hajducsek have begun in previous generations?
        > >
        > > Can anyone explain Mathias and his alias madness???
        > >
        > > Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
        > >
        > > Thank you!
        > >
        > > Eric Hajducsek
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • CurtB
        Peter & Eric, Careful here translating the Latin. The text says that this day was baptized Joannes the son of Mathias Skop, also known as Kuhar or (more
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 4, 2013
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          Peter & Eric,
          Careful here translating the Latin.

          The text says that 'this day was baptized Joannes the son of Mathias Skop, also known as Kuhar or (more often) Hajducsek.'

          So the priest is recording the family name as Skop, but also indicating they using two alias names. The vel here is indeterminate and probably just means 'or' but it does not indicate a name preference, and certainly not the primary name, which is Skop.

          Curt B.

          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
          >
          > Hello Eric,
          >
          > "Does Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been
          > dropped in favor of Hajducsek going forward? Might he have been born simply
          > as Andras Skop? Or might the use of Hajducsek have begun in previous
          > generations?"
          >
          > The 'vel' in the 1795 record is Latin and translates to 'or' but also has a
          > meaning 'in particular'. So the priest at the time recorded the original
          > family name as originally 'Hajducsek'. The 1847 record shows that 'Skop'
          > and 'Hajducsek' were still linked, but no mention of 'Kuhar'. This shows
          > that there is some consistency within the records, at least as far as the
          > priest(s)/scribes were consistent. The 'Hajducsek' name appearing as early
          > as 1785 in the nearby village of Pol'ov cements that name as the original.
          > I'm presuming that there was no 'Skop' alias in that record?
          > So we can't say that one name took over the other at this stage, but the
          > family wanted to be known by both names, so you need to follow the Skop and
          > Hajducsek names from at least 1795 onwards.
          >
          > Joannes, son of Mathias, born in June 14th 1795 would of been 23 at the
          > time of Andras's birth. Andras could be Joannes's son, or brother.
          > As for Mathias's alias madness, I'll email you directly on possibilities.
          >
          > Peter M.
          >
          > On 5 February 2013 06:16, tkejuice1208 wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > > Hello all. After a year of some fairly intense research and a lot of
          > > confusion, I am reaching out for assistance. The subject of the research is
          > > Andras Hajducsek from Saca, a village a short distance south / southwest of
          > > Kosice. The surname was not a popular one in Saca or the neighboring
          > > villages of Mala Ida and Pol'ov so I do not believe that there was more
          > > than one adult Andras Hajducsek of the same approximate age within my
          > > window of research. Searching LDS records from Roman Catholic parishes in
          > > the area, I have only been able to locate marriage and death records for
          > > Andras. The marriage record from 1/28/1846 shows a 24 year old groom and
          > > his 20 year old bride Anna Krisztianko from Saca. This places his year of
          > > birth at 1821 or 1822. His death record on 1/24/1881 shows his widow Anna
          > > Krisztanko and lists his age at 63. This places his YOB at 1817 or 1818. I
          > > have not been able to locate his baptismal record despite searching RC
          > > records in several area villages across all years 1815 â€" 1825.
          > >
          > > My first thought is that Andras Hajducsek and family may have migrated
          > > from another village but the surname, as far as I can tell, appears in the
          > > area as early as 1785 in Pol'ov. Still, I cannot document his birth and
          > > parentage.
          > >
          > > I am worried that this research is being complicated by aliases. Andras
          > > and Anna had a son (Andras) on 8/27/1847 in Saca. The name of the father
          > > was recorded as Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop. This connection
          > > to the Skop surname is further complicated by a possible relative from the
          > > late 1700's whose name was recorded as Mathias Skop, alias Kuhar vel (I
          > > think it is "vel") Hajducsek on the record from 5/14/1795 that I have
          > > linked to:
          > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22646-26414-74?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-R7W:n1744020469
          > >
          > > I have always been confused by the use of the alias in terms of which is
          > > the old name and which carries forward, but the apparent use of three
          > > surnames has created a nightmare. I have never seen three surnames recorded
          > > for 1 person and cannot begin to make sense of it.
          > >
          > > Since I don't know that Mathias and Andras were related, I am focusing on
          > > establishing the Hajducsek Skop connection. Does Hajducsek Andras maskep
          > > (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been dropped in favor of Hajducsek
          > > going forward? Might he have been born simply as Andras Skop? Or might the
          > > use of Hajducsek have begun in previous generations?
          > >
          > > Can anyone explain Mathias and his alias madness???
          > >
          > > Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
          > >
          > > Thank you!
          > >
          > > Eric Hajducsek
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • htcstech
          Sure, but it was just a bit of free thinking about name origins as he wanted to know which and why the alias occurred. As it was basically off topic, I went
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 4, 2013
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            Sure, but it was just a bit of free thinking about name origins as he
            wanted to know which and why the alias occurred.
            As it was basically off topic, I went private as it wouldn't of helped
            anyone else. However I wrote briefly about the history of the Hajdu and
            that they originated from Southern old Hungary including Macedonia,
            Coratia, Serbia, Romania and Bulgaria. They were originally guerrilla
            fighters against the Turks and later the Hapsburgs, often anti-Catholic.
            They eventually became freemen (untaxed) and were later used on estates as
            armed, horse-riding private police or overseers. In social standing, they
            were a cut above the peasant farmers, although they were alienated in
            certain places as they would force the labourers to keep working. The main
            aspect of the Hajdus were in the revolutionary armies -The Kurucz and the
            Rakoczi, both armies were present in the area from the late 1600 to about
            1711. Both disbanded and were left to their own fates, often settling in
            the area where they found themselves. So Hajducsek (Hajduczek) name was
            descriptive of their origins. They were probably very proud of this.

            Even more contentiously, Skop can be translated to Skopje, which provides
            the Macedonian/Croatian link. The Ottoman empire had control of Greece as
            well. Skop can refer to the Polish town and Hajdus were also used in Polish
            estates as guards.
            So I concluded that Skop was some form of remembrance by the Hajducsek
            family.

            Peter M.
            P.S. I've been wrong before.....


            On 5 February 2013 14:15, deeellessbee <deeellessbee@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > Peter, if it's something that can be shared, I too would be interested in
            > hearing your thoughts on Matthias' "alias madness". While I have the basics
            > of (the "why" of) the alias name down, it still sometime confuses me and I
            > still don't know which name was which in my family. So threads about
            > aliases always catch my eye and I am interested in learning as much as I
            > can about them.
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Debbie
            >
            >
            > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello Eric,
            > >
            > > "Does Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been
            > > dropped in favor of Hajducsek going forward? Might he have been born
            > simply
            > > as Andras Skop? Or might the use of Hajducsek have begun in previous
            > > generations?"
            > >
            > > The 'vel' in the 1795 record is Latin and translates to 'or' but also
            > has a
            > > meaning 'in particular'. So the priest at the time recorded the original
            > > family name as originally 'Hajducsek'. The 1847 record shows that 'Skop'
            > > and 'Hajducsek' were still linked, but no mention of 'Kuhar'. This shows
            > > that there is some consistency within the records, at least as far as the
            > > priest(s)/scribes were consistent. The 'Hajducsek' name appearing as
            > early
            > > as 1785 in the nearby village of Pol'ov cements that name as the
            > original.
            > > I'm presuming that there was no 'Skop' alias in that record?
            > > So we can't say that one name took over the other at this stage, but the
            > > family wanted to be known by both names, so you need to follow the Skop
            > and
            > > Hajducsek names from at least 1795 onwards.
            > >
            > > Joannes, son of Mathias, born in June 14th 1795 would of been 23 at the
            > > time of Andras's birth. Andras could be Joannes's son, or brother.
            > > As for Mathias's alias madness, I'll email you directly on possibilities.
            > >
            > > Peter M.
            > >
            > > On 5 February 2013 06:16, tkejuice1208 wrote:
            > >
            > > > **
            >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Hello all. After a year of some fairly intense research and a lot of
            > > > confusion, I am reaching out for assistance. The subject of the
            > research is
            > > > Andras Hajducsek from Saca, a village a short distance south /
            > southwest of
            > > > Kosice. The surname was not a popular one in Saca or the neighboring
            > > > villages of Mala Ida and Pol'ov so I do not believe that there was more
            > > > than one adult Andras Hajducsek of the same approximate age within my
            > > > window of research. Searching LDS records from Roman Catholic parishes
            > in
            > > > the area, I have only been able to locate marriage and death records
            > for
            > > > Andras. The marriage record from 1/28/1846 shows a 24 year old groom
            > and
            > > > his 20 year old bride Anna Krisztianko from Saca. This places his year
            > of
            > > > birth at 1821 or 1822. His death record on 1/24/1881 shows his widow
            > Anna
            > > > Krisztanko and lists his age at 63. This places his YOB at 1817 or
            > 1818. I
            > > > have not been able to locate his baptismal record despite searching RC
            > > > records in several area villages across all years 1815 â€" 1825.
            >
            > > >
            > > > My first thought is that Andras Hajducsek and family may have migrated
            > > > from another village but the surname, as far as I can tell, appears in
            > the
            > > > area as early as 1785 in Pol'ov. Still, I cannot document his birth and
            > > > parentage.
            > > >
            > > > I am worried that this research is being complicated by aliases. Andras
            > > > and Anna had a son (Andras) on 8/27/1847 in Saca. The name of the
            > father
            > > > was recorded as Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop. This
            > connection
            > > > to the Skop surname is further complicated by a possible relative from
            > the
            > > > late 1700's whose name was recorded as Mathias Skop, alias Kuhar vel (I
            > > > think it is "vel") Hajducsek on the record from 5/14/1795 that I have
            > > > linked to:
            > > >
            > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22646-26414-74?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-R7W:n1744020469
            > > >
            > > > I have always been confused by the use of the alias in terms of which
            > is
            > > > the old name and which carries forward, but the apparent use of three
            > > > surnames has created a nightmare. I have never seen three surnames
            > recorded
            > > > for 1 person and cannot begin to make sense of it.
            > > >
            > > > Since I don't know that Mathias and Andras were related, I am focusing
            > on
            > > > establishing the Hajducsek Skop connection. Does Hajducsek Andras
            > maskep
            > > > (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been dropped in favor of Hajducsek
            > > > going forward? Might he have been born simply as Andras Skop? Or might
            > the
            > > > use of Hajducsek have begun in previous generations?
            > > >
            > > > Can anyone explain Mathias and his alias madness???
            > > >
            > > > Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
            > > >
            > > > Thank you!
            > > >
            > > > Eric Hajducsek
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • lrrykck
            Eric  I entered Hajdusek into the search engine on the LDS site instead of scrolling through indivigual villiages.  ....It brougth up quite a few pages for
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 5, 2013
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              Eric

               I entered Hajdusek into the search engine on the LDS site instead of scrolling through indivigual villiages.  ....It brougth up quite a few pages for Slovakia and this country. The name could be spelled with a "c" , "s". or "cs" when using search engines, of course when scrolling you'd catch all those variations.

               This is an interesting thread on aliases....I don't mean to confuse the issue with spelling variations, as I was saying, spelling would only be important when using a search engine.

              good luck Eric

              larry

               

               Is there a chance that Hajdu[c]sek   is something other than a surname. I think haj means a snake, but someone told me once that they thought my gramma's name G ajdusek, was a referrence to someone that served a duke in some capacity.
               In this case I think gaj is a bagpipe type musical instrument, and that person said gajdusek could be a court musican....

              ----- Original Message -----


              From: "htcstech" <htcstech@...>
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, February 4, 2013 5:34:19 PM
              Subject: Re: [S-R] Alias Confusion (3 names)

              Hello Eric,

              "Does Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been
              dropped in favor of Hajducsek going forward? Might he have been born simply
              as Andras Skop? Or might the use of Hajducsek have begun in previous
              generations?"

              The 'vel' in the 1795 record is Latin and translates to 'or' but also has a
              meaning 'in particular'. So the priest at the time recorded the original
              family name as originally 'Hajducsek'. The 1847 record shows that 'Skop'
              and 'Hajducsek' were still linked, but no mention of 'Kuhar'. This shows
              that there is some consistency within the records, at least as far as the
              priest(s)/scribes were consistent. The 'Hajducsek' name appearing as early
              as 1785 in the nearby village of Pol'ov cements that name as the original.
              I'm presuming that there was no 'Skop' alias in that record?
              So we can't say that one name took over the other at this stage, but the
              family wanted to be known by both names, so you need to follow the Skop and
              Hajducsek names from at least 1795 onwards.

              Joannes, son of Mathias, born in June 14th 1795 would of been 23 at the
              time of Andras's birth. Andras could be Joannes's son, or brother.
              As for Mathias's alias madness, I'll email you directly on possibilities.

              Peter M.

              On 5 February 2013 06:16, tkejuice1208 <tkejuice1208@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > Hello all. After a year of some fairly intense research and a lot of
              > confusion, I am reaching out for assistance. The subject of the research is
              > Andras Hajducsek from Saca, a village a short distance south / southwest of
              > Kosice. The surname was not a popular one in Saca or the neighboring
              > villages of Mala Ida and Pol'ov so I do not believe that there was more
              > than one adult Andras Hajducsek of the same approximate age within my
              > window of research. Searching LDS records from Roman Catholic parishes in
              > the area, I have only been able to locate marriage and death records for
              > Andras. The marriage record from 1/28/1846 shows a 24 year old groom and
              > his 20 year old bride Anna Krisztianko from Saca. This places his year of
              > birth at 1821 or 1822. His death record on 1/24/1881 shows his widow Anna
              > Krisztanko and lists his age at 63. This places his YOB at 1817 or 1818. I
              > have not been able to locate his baptismal record despite searching RC
              > records in several area villages across all years 1815 – 1825.
              >
              > My first thought is that Andras Hajducsek and family may have migrated
              > from another village but the surname, as far as I can tell, appears in the
              > area as early as 1785 in Pol'ov. Still, I cannot document his birth and
              > parentage.
              >
              > I am worried that this research is being complicated by aliases. Andras
              > and Anna had a son (Andras) on 8/27/1847 in Saca. The name of the father
              > was recorded as Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop. This connection
              > to the Skop surname is further complicated by a possible relative from the
              > late 1700's whose name was recorded as Mathias Skop, alias Kuhar vel (I
              > think it is "vel") Hajducsek on the record from 5/14/1795 that I have
              > linked to:
              > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22646-26414-74?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-R7W:n1744020469
              >
              > I have always been confused by the use of the alias in terms of which is
              > the old name and which carries forward, but the apparent use of three
              > surnames has created a nightmare. I have never seen three surnames recorded
              > for 1 person and cannot begin to make sense of it.
              >
              > Since I don't know that Mathias and Andras were related, I am focusing on
              > establishing the Hajducsek Skop connection. Does Hajducsek Andras maskep
              > (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been dropped in favor of Hajducsek
              > going forward? Might he have been born simply as Andras Skop? Or might the
              > use of Hajducsek have begun in previous generations?
              >
              > Can anyone explain Mathias and his alias madness???
              >
              > Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
              >
              > Thank you!
              >
              > Eric Hajducsek
              >
              >  
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tom Kukuk
              Very interesting dialogue. Seems it should be saved as reference material. Thanks for not making it private Sent from my iPhone Tom Kukuk 612.309.7999 ...
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 5, 2013
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                Very interesting dialogue. Seems it should be saved as reference material. Thanks for not making it private

                Sent from my iPhone
                Tom Kukuk
                612.309.7999


                On Feb 5, 2013, at 12:22 AM, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:

                > Sure, but it was just a bit of free thinking about name origins as he
                > wanted to know which and why the alias occurred.
                > As it was basically off topic, I went private as it wouldn't of helped
                > anyone else. However I wrote briefly about the history of the Hajdu and
                > that they originated from Southern old Hungary including Macedonia,
                > Coratia, Serbia, Romania and Bulgaria. They were originally guerrilla
                > fighters against the Turks and later the Hapsburgs, often anti-Catholic.
                > They eventually became freemen (untaxed) and were later used on estates as
                > armed, horse-riding private police or overseers. In social standing, they
                > were a cut above the peasant farmers, although they were alienated in
                > certain places as they would force the labourers to keep working. The main
                > aspect of the Hajdus were in the revolutionary armies -The Kurucz and the
                > Rakoczi, both armies were present in the area from the late 1600 to about
                > 1711. Both disbanded and were left to their own fates, often settling in
                > the area where they found themselves. So Hajducsek (Hajduczek) name was
                > descriptive of their origins. They were probably very proud of this.
                >
                > Even more contentiously, Skop can be translated to Skopje, which provides
                > the Macedonian/Croatian link. The Ottoman empire had control of Greece as
                > well. Skop can refer to the Polish town and Hajdus were also used in Polish
                > estates as guards.
                > So I concluded that Skop was some form of remembrance by the Hajducsek
                > family.
                >
                > Peter M.
                > P.S. I've been wrong before.....
                >
                > On 5 February 2013 14:15, deeellessbee deeellessbee@...> wrote:
                >
                > > **
                > >
                > >
                > > Peter, if it's something that can be shared, I too would be interested in
                > > hearing your thoughts on Matthias' "alias madness". While I have the basics
                > > of (the "why" of) the alias name down, it still sometime confuses me and I
                > > still don't know which name was which in my family. So threads about
                > > aliases always catch my eye and I am interested in learning as much as I
                > > can about them.
                > >
                > > Thanks,
                > > Debbie
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hello Eric,
                > > >
                > > > "Does Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been
                > > > dropped in favor of Hajducsek going forward? Might he have been born
                > > simply
                > > > as Andras Skop? Or might the use of Hajducsek have begun in previous
                > > > generations?"
                > > >
                > > > The 'vel' in the 1795 record is Latin and translates to 'or' but also
                > > has a
                > > > meaning 'in particular'. So the priest at the time recorded the original
                > > > family name as originally 'Hajducsek'. The 1847 record shows that 'Skop'
                > > > and 'Hajducsek' were still linked, but no mention of 'Kuhar'. This shows
                > > > that there is some consistency within the records, at least as far as the
                > > > priest(s)/scribes were consistent. The 'Hajducsek' name appearing as
                > > early
                > > > as 1785 in the nearby village of Pol'ov cements that name as the
                > > original.
                > > > I'm presuming that there was no 'Skop' alias in that record?
                > > > So we can't say that one name took over the other at this stage, but the
                > > > family wanted to be known by both names, so you need to follow the Skop
                > > and
                > > > Hajducsek names from at least 1795 onwards.
                > > >
                > > > Joannes, son of Mathias, born in June 14th 1795 would of been 23 at the
                > > > time of Andras's birth. Andras could be Joannes's son, or brother.
                > > > As for Mathias's alias madness, I'll email you directly on possibilities.
                > > >
                > > > Peter M.
                > > >
                > > > On 5 February 2013 06:16, tkejuice1208 wrote:
                > > >
                > > > > **
                > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Hello all. After a year of some fairly intense research and a lot of
                > > > > confusion, I am reaching out for assistance. The subject of the
                > > research is
                > > > > Andras Hajducsek from Saca, a village a short distance south /
                > > southwest of
                > > > > Kosice. The surname was not a popular one in Saca or the neighboring
                > > > > villages of Mala Ida and Pol'ov so I do not believe that there was more
                > > > > than one adult Andras Hajducsek of the same approximate age within my
                > > > > window of research. Searching LDS records from Roman Catholic parishes
                > > in
                > > > > the area, I have only been able to locate marriage and death records
                > > for
                > > > > Andras. The marriage record from 1/28/1846 shows a 24 year old groom
                > > and
                > > > > his 20 year old bride Anna Krisztianko from Saca. This places his year
                > > of
                > > > > birth at 1821 or 1822. His death record on 1/24/1881 shows his widow
                > > Anna
                > > > > Krisztanko and lists his age at 63. This places his YOB at 1817 or
                > > 1818. I
                > > > > have not been able to locate his baptismal record despite searching RC
                > > > > records in several area villages across all years 1815 â€" 1825.
                > >
                > > > >
                > > > > My first thought is that Andras Hajducsek and family may have migrated
                > > > > from another village but the surname, as far as I can tell, appears in
                > > the
                > > > > area as early as 1785 in Pol'ov. Still, I cannot document his birth and
                > > > > parentage.
                > > > >
                > > > > I am worried that this research is being complicated by aliases. Andras
                > > > > and Anna had a son (Andras) on 8/27/1847 in Saca. The name of the
                > > father
                > > > > was recorded as Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop. This
                > > connection
                > > > > to the Skop surname is further complicated by a possible relative from
                > > the
                > > > > late 1700's whose name was recorded as Mathias Skop, alias Kuhar vel (I
                > > > > think it is "vel") Hajducsek on the record from 5/14/1795 that I have
                > > > > linked to:
                > > > >
                > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22646-26414-74?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-R7W:n1744020469
                > > > >
                > > > > I have always been confused by the use of the alias in terms of which
                > > is
                > > > > the old name and which carries forward, but the apparent use of three
                > > > > surnames has created a nightmare. I have never seen three surnames
                > > recorded
                > > > > for 1 person and cannot begin to make sense of it.
                > > > >
                > > > > Since I don't know that Mathias and Andras were related, I am focusing
                > > on
                > > > > establishing the Hajducsek Skop connection. Does Hajducsek Andras
                > > maskep
                > > > > (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been dropped in favor of Hajducsek
                > > > > going forward? Might he have been born simply as Andras Skop? Or might
                > > the
                > > > > use of Hajducsek have begun in previous generations?
                > > > >
                > > > > Can anyone explain Mathias and his alias madness???
                > > > >
                > > > > Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
                > > > >
                > > > > Thank you!
                > > > >
                > > > > Eric Hajducsek
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • tkejuice1208
                Thanks to all who have provided input. These discussions are always very interesting and I encourage additional input that may be of value. To answer a
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 5, 2013
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                  Thanks to all who have provided input. These discussions are always very interesting and I encourage additional input that may be of value. To answer a previous question, I have not yet seen the alias in reverse (Hajducsek, alias Skop).

                  As the wheels continue to turn in my head, I thought of an event that may trigger an alias. Please let know if you can verify such an occurrence or otherwise know this to be true. The scenario is that unwed mother gives birth to child "A" (illeg). Child is baptized with mother's maiden surname. Mother marries and had additional children who carry the surname of the father. Child "A" has mother's maiden surname, but can be associated with the family unit/household that bears the surname of the husband, therefore triggering the alias by association.

                  Thoughts?
                • Ron
                  Tom, That is a good idea, and there is no reason you or another ambitious member of S-R can t do it. This is largely a self moderating, independent group, and
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 5, 2013
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                    Tom,

                    That is a good idea, and there is no reason you or another ambitious member of S-R can't do it. This is largely a self moderating, independent group, and we volunteer moderators are here primarily to assure continuity, administer, and occasionally moderate.

                    Any responsible member could take this thread, retain reference to post numbers and authors so the original posts can be located in the future, and edit out all of the extraneous material in the discussion, distilling the contributions to a comprehensive, readable description of Aliases, and post it to the FILES section of the forum. Perhaps keeping the original title _Alias Confusion_ would be appropriate, perhaps not.

                    That is one way we could develop a good "community reference library" over time. While we are currently in the process of culling out old individual posts in the Files and Photos sections, the memory area is intended for community benefit, and this would seem quite appropriate.

                    Do we have any volunteers for this topic?

                    Ron
                    PS. Does anyone have another favorite topic that was well discussed in the past, that clarified a topic important to them and to the group, that would be willing to go back and distill that to a readable , comprehensive topic?

                    This is posted as an idea from one member, with no implication that it is anyway official guidance or policy.



                    --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Tom Kukuk wrote:
                    >
                    > Very interesting dialogue. Seems it should be saved as reference material. Thanks for not making it private
                    >
                    > Sent from my iPhone
                    > Tom Kukuk
                    > 612.309.7999
                    >
                    >
                    > On Feb 5, 2013, at 12:22 AM, htcstech wrote:
                    >
                    > > Sure, but it was just a bit of free thinking about name origins as he
                    > > wanted to know which and why the alias occurred.
                    > > As it was basically off topic, I went private as it wouldn't of helped
                    > > anyone else. However I wrote briefly about the history of the Hajdu and
                    > > that they originated from Southern old Hungary including Macedonia,
                    > > Coratia, Serbia, Romania and Bulgaria. They were originally guerrilla
                    > > fighters against the Turks and later the Hapsburgs, often anti-Catholic.
                    > > They eventually became freemen (untaxed) and were later used on estates as
                    > > armed, horse-riding private police or overseers. In social standing, they
                    > > were a cut above the peasant farmers, although they were alienated in
                    > > certain places as they would force the labourers to keep working. The main
                    > > aspect of the Hajdus were in the revolutionary armies -The Kurucz and the
                    > > Rakoczi, both armies were present in the area from the late 1600 to about
                    > > 1711. Both disbanded and were left to their own fates, often settling in
                    > > the area where they found themselves. So Hajducsek (Hajduczek) name was
                    > > descriptive of their origins. They were probably very proud of this.
                    > >
                    > > Even more contentiously, Skop can be translated to Skopje, which provides
                    > > the Macedonian/Croatian link. The Ottoman empire had control of Greece as
                    > > well. Skop can refer to the Polish town and Hajdus were also used in Polish
                    > > estates as guards.
                    > > So I concluded that Skop was some form of remembrance by the Hajducsek
                    > > family.
                    > >
                    > > Peter M.
                    > > P.S. I've been wrong before.....
                    > >
                    > > On 5 February 2013 14:15, deeellessbee deeellessbee@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > **
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Peter, if it's something that can be shared, I too would be interested in
                    > > > hearing your thoughts on Matthias' "alias madness". While I have the basics
                    > > > of (the "why" of) the alias name down, it still sometime confuses me and I
                    > > > still don't know which name was which in my family. So threads about
                    > > > aliases always catch my eye and I am interested in learning as much as I
                    > > > can about them.
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks,
                    > > > Debbie
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hello Eric,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "Does Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been
                    > > > > dropped in favor of Hajducsek going forward? Might he have been born
                    > > > simply
                    > > > > as Andras Skop? Or might the use of Hajducsek have begun in previous
                    > > > > generations?"
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The 'vel' in the 1795 record is Latin and translates to 'or' but also
                    > > > has a
                    > > > > meaning 'in particular'. So the priest at the time recorded the original
                    > > > > family name as originally 'Hajducsek'. The 1847 record shows that 'Skop'
                    > > > > and 'Hajducsek' were still linked, but no mention of 'Kuhar'. This shows
                    > > > > that there is some consistency within the records, at least as far as the
                    > > > > priest(s)/scribes were consistent. The 'Hajducsek' name appearing as
                    > > > early
                    > > > > as 1785 in the nearby village of Pol'ov cements that name as the
                    > > > original.
                    > > > > I'm presuming that there was no 'Skop' alias in that record?
                    > > > > So we can't say that one name took over the other at this stage, but the
                    > > > > family wanted to be known by both names, so you need to follow the Skop
                    > > > and
                    > > > > Hajducsek names from at least 1795 onwards.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Joannes, son of Mathias, born in June 14th 1795 would of been 23 at the
                    > > > > time of Andras's birth. Andras could be Joannes's son, or brother.
                    > > > > As for Mathias's alias madness, I'll email you directly on possibilities.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Peter M.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > On 5 February 2013 06:16, tkejuice1208 wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > > **
                    > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Hello all. After a year of some fairly intense research and a lot of
                    > > > > > confusion, I am reaching out for assistance. The subject of the
                    > > > research is
                    > > > > > Andras Hajducsek from Saca, a village a short distance south /
                    > > > southwest of
                    > > > > > Kosice. The surname was not a popular one in Saca or the neighboring
                    > > > > > villages of Mala Ida and Pol'ov so I do not believe that there was more
                    > > > > > than one adult Andras Hajducsek of the same approximate age within my
                    > > > > > window of research. Searching LDS records from Roman Catholic parishes
                    > > > in
                    > > > > > the area, I have only been able to locate marriage and death records
                    > > > for
                    > > > > > Andras. The marriage record from 1/28/1846 shows a 24 year old groom
                    > > > and
                    > > > > > his 20 year old bride Anna Krisztianko from Saca. This places his year
                    > > > of
                    > > > > > birth at 1821 or 1822. His death record on 1/24/1881 shows his widow
                    > > > Anna
                    > > > > > Krisztanko and lists his age at 63. This places his YOB at 1817 or
                    > > > 1818. I
                    > > > > > have not been able to locate his baptismal record despite searching RC
                    > > > > > records in several area villages across all years 1815 â€" 1825.
                    > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > My first thought is that Andras Hajducsek and family may have migrated
                    > > > > > from another village but the surname, as far as I can tell, appears in
                    > > > the
                    > > > > > area as early as 1785 in Pol'ov. Still, I cannot document his birth and
                    > > > > > parentage.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I am worried that this research is being complicated by aliases. Andras
                    > > > > > and Anna had a son (Andras) on 8/27/1847 in Saca. The name of the
                    > > > father
                    > > > > > was recorded as Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop. This
                    > > > connection
                    > > > > > to the Skop surname is further complicated by a possible relative from
                    > > > the
                    > > > > > late 1700's whose name was recorded as Mathias Skop, alias Kuhar vel (I
                    > > > > > think it is "vel") Hajducsek on the record from 5/14/1795 that I have
                    > > > > > linked to:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22646-26414-74?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-R7W:n1744020469
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I have always been confused by the use of the alias in terms of which
                    > > > is
                    > > > > > the old name and which carries forward, but the apparent use of three
                    > > > > > surnames has created a nightmare. I have never seen three surnames
                    > > > recorded
                    > > > > > for 1 person and cannot begin to make sense of it.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Since I don't know that Mathias and Andras were related, I am focusing
                    > > > on
                    > > > > > establishing the Hajducsek Skop connection. Does Hajducsek Andras
                    > > > maskep
                    > > > > > (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been dropped in favor of Hajducsek
                    > > > > > going forward? Might he have been born simply as Andras Skop? Or might
                    > > > the
                    > > > > > use of Hajducsek have begun in previous generations?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Can anyone explain Mathias and his alias madness???
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Thank you!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Eric Hajducsek
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • deeellessbee
                    Thank you Peter! Debbie
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 5, 2013
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                      Thank you Peter!

                      Debbie


                      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                      >
                      > Sure, but it was just a bit of free thinking about name origins as he
                      > wanted to know which and why the alias occurred.
                      > As it was basically off topic, I went private as it wouldn't of helped
                      > anyone else. However I wrote briefly about the history of the Hajdu and
                      > that they originated from Southern old Hungary including Macedonia,
                      > Coratia, Serbia, Romania and Bulgaria. They were originally guerrilla
                      > fighters against the Turks and later the Hapsburgs, often anti-Catholic.
                      > They eventually became freemen (untaxed) and were later used on estates as
                      > armed, horse-riding private police or overseers. In social standing, they
                      > were a cut above the peasant farmers, although they were alienated in
                      > certain places as they would force the labourers to keep working. The main
                      > aspect of the Hajdus were in the revolutionary armies -The Kurucz and the
                      > Rakoczi, both armies were present in the area from the late 1600 to about
                      > 1711. Both disbanded and were left to their own fates, often settling in
                      > the area where they found themselves. So Hajducsek (Hajduczek) name was
                      > descriptive of their origins. They were probably very proud of this.
                      >
                      > Even more contentiously, Skop can be translated to Skopje, which provides
                      > the Macedonian/Croatian link. The Ottoman empire had control of Greece as
                      > well. Skop can refer to the Polish town and Hajdus were also used in Polish
                      > estates as guards.
                      > So I concluded that Skop was some form of remembrance by the Hajducsek
                      > family.
                      >
                      > Peter M.
                      > P.S. I've been wrong before.....
                      >
                      >
                      > On 5 February 2013 14:15, deeellessbee wrote:
                      >
                      > > **
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Peter, if it's something that can be shared, I too would be interested in
                      > > hearing your thoughts on Matthias' "alias madness". While I have the basics
                      > > of (the "why" of) the alias name down, it still sometime confuses me and I
                      > > still don't know which name was which in my family. So threads about
                      > > aliases always catch my eye and I am interested in learning as much as I
                      > > can about them.
                      > >
                      > > Thanks,
                      > > Debbie
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hello Eric,
                      > > >
                      > > > "Does Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been
                      > > > dropped in favor of Hajducsek going forward? Might he have been born
                      > > simply
                      > > > as Andras Skop? Or might the use of Hajducsek have begun in previous
                      > > > generations?"
                      > > >
                      > > > The 'vel' in the 1795 record is Latin and translates to 'or' but also
                      > > has a
                      > > > meaning 'in particular'. So the priest at the time recorded the original
                      > > > family name as originally 'Hajducsek'. The 1847 record shows that 'Skop'
                      > > > and 'Hajducsek' were still linked, but no mention of 'Kuhar'. This shows
                      > > > that there is some consistency within the records, at least as far as the
                      > > > priest(s)/scribes were consistent. The 'Hajducsek' name appearing as
                      > > early
                      > > > as 1785 in the nearby village of Pol'ov cements that name as the
                      > > original.
                      > > > I'm presuming that there was no 'Skop' alias in that record?
                      > > > So we can't say that one name took over the other at this stage, but the
                      > > > family wanted to be known by both names, so you need to follow the Skop
                      > > and
                      > > > Hajducsek names from at least 1795 onwards.
                      > > >
                      > > > Joannes, son of Mathias, born in June 14th 1795 would of been 23 at the
                      > > > time of Andras's birth. Andras could be Joannes's son, or brother.
                      > > > As for Mathias's alias madness, I'll email you directly on possibilities.
                      > > >
                      > > > Peter M.
                      > > >
                      > > > On 5 February 2013 06:16, tkejuice1208 wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > > **
                      > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Hello all. After a year of some fairly intense research and a lot of
                      > > > > confusion, I am reaching out for assistance. The subject of the
                      > > research is
                      > > > > Andras Hajducsek from Saca, a village a short distance south /
                      > > southwest of
                      > > > > Kosice. The surname was not a popular one in Saca or the neighboring
                      > > > > villages of Mala Ida and Pol'ov so I do not believe that there was more
                      > > > > than one adult Andras Hajducsek of the same approximate age within my
                      > > > > window of research. Searching LDS records from Roman Catholic parishes
                      > > in
                      > > > > the area, I have only been able to locate marriage and death records
                      > > for
                      > > > > Andras. The marriage record from 1/28/1846 shows a 24 year old groom
                      > > and
                      > > > > his 20 year old bride Anna Krisztianko from Saca. This places his year
                      > > of
                      > > > > birth at 1821 or 1822. His death record on 1/24/1881 shows his widow
                      > > Anna
                      > > > > Krisztanko and lists his age at 63. This places his YOB at 1817 or
                      > > 1818. I
                      > > > > have not been able to locate his baptismal record despite searching RC
                      > > > > records in several area villages across all years 1815 â€" 1825.
                      > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > My first thought is that Andras Hajducsek and family may have migrated
                      > > > > from another village but the surname, as far as I can tell, appears in
                      > > the
                      > > > > area as early as 1785 in Pol'ov. Still, I cannot document his birth and
                      > > > > parentage.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I am worried that this research is being complicated by aliases. Andras
                      > > > > and Anna had a son (Andras) on 8/27/1847 in Saca. The name of the
                      > > father
                      > > > > was recorded as Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop. This
                      > > connection
                      > > > > to the Skop surname is further complicated by a possible relative from
                      > > the
                      > > > > late 1700's whose name was recorded as Mathias Skop, alias Kuhar vel (I
                      > > > > think it is "vel") Hajducsek on the record from 5/14/1795 that I have
                      > > > > linked to:
                      > > > >
                      > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22646-26414-74?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-R7W:n1744020469
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I have always been confused by the use of the alias in terms of which
                      > > is
                      > > > > the old name and which carries forward, but the apparent use of three
                      > > > > surnames has created a nightmare. I have never seen three surnames
                      > > recorded
                      > > > > for 1 person and cannot begin to make sense of it.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Since I don't know that Mathias and Andras were related, I am focusing
                      > > on
                      > > > > establishing the Hajducsek Skop connection. Does Hajducsek Andras
                      > > maskep
                      > > > > (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been dropped in favor of Hajducsek
                      > > > > going forward? Might he have been born simply as Andras Skop? Or might
                      > > the
                      > > > > use of Hajducsek have begun in previous generations?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Can anyone explain Mathias and his alias madness???
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Thank you!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Eric Hajducsek
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • CurtB
                      Eric, In raising the question of the Alias or do name it is important to remember that this was not a uniform practice over time and place, but varied until
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 6, 2013
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                        Eric,
                        In raising the question of the Alias or "do' name it is important to remember that this was not a uniform practice over time and place, but varied until it disappeared at the beginning of the 20th century.

                        That is, it was much more common in small communities that were partially illiterate, oral cultures, and without possessing documents. Their births, deaths, and marriages were simply recorded by clergy in the church books according to what the clergy either 'knew' or the people told them. People did not even remember their birthdays accurately,but they celebrated saint's days which were known through the church calendar.

                        Aliases or name changes came about from the case you mention here but also but also following spousal deaths and remarriages. So children of first marriages followed by a death of a father and a mother's remarriage often took on the name of the second father with no formal procedure in place, just custom. It just became too difficult for neighbors to remember what to call which child. My own grandmother was married twice and the children of the first marriage took on the name of her second husband without much question, though within the family we knew the whole story and differentiated them with an alias. Our grandmother's entire family also had a third alias to differentiate it from from another set of rather distant cousins who shared first names. This alias persisted even when the original last name was no longer shared by women who had married and had children.

                        Some aliases were taken on by which house one might move into. It was rare to move into a house not inherited in some way so when it happened one might be called by a name of a former family who occupied that home. So a man might be called by neighbors - John Smith who lives in the Zobrak home - and eventually just John Zobrak.

                        Some aliases were taken on by men who married a woman in another village and went to live with her family. Since local villagers knew her family but not him, he would just take on her family name.

                        Some aliases were taken on by men who married women of different class, or who were owners or heiresses of land when the husband was not.

                        And while I have not found a case in church records, it seems not unlikely that, just as in this country presently, people sometimes take on an alias by moving and escaping a bad reputation.:)

                        Curt B.

                        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "tkejuice1208" wrote:
                        >
                        > Thanks to all who have provided input. These discussions are always very interesting and I encourage additional input that may be of value. To answer a previous question, I have not yet seen the alias in reverse (Hajducsek, alias Skop).
                        >
                        > As the wheels continue to turn in my head, I thought of an event that may trigger an alias. Please let know if you can verify such an occurrence or otherwise know this to be true. The scenario is that unwed mother gives birth to child "A" (illeg). Child is baptized with mother's maiden surname. Mother marries and had additional children who carry the surname of the father. Child "A" has mother's maiden surname, but can be associated with the family unit/household that bears the surname of the husband, therefore triggering the alias by association.
                        >
                        > Thoughts?
                        >
                      • htcstech
                        Thank you Curt! Your explanation summarises the alias events very well. I have an oral history (told in 2012) where some branches of the family were
                        Message 11 of 15 , Feb 6, 2013
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                          Thank you Curt!
                          Your explanation summarises the alias events very well.
                          I have an oral history (told in 2012) where some branches of the family
                          were differentiated by nicknames, though still keeping the family name.
                          The first example was of 'Bartosi Marafko' who bought the land owned by
                          Bartos and the other, 'Olle Marafko' or 'Marafko Olle' where the maiden
                          name was used.
                          Neither became aliases or recorded in church books. It was and still is
                          used for identification in general conversation as a convenience.

                          You raise an interesting point about literacy.
                          Most of us have only the church archives to examine where considerable
                          spelling variations occurred. If the individual (let's say a marriage pre
                          1869) was literate and the scribe wrote the name incorrectly, would he have
                          an opportunity to read the entry and suggest correction? Were the entries
                          only for the perusal of the priests? Did tax officials have access to these
                          records?
                          It is difficult to find information regarding schooling from 1770 onwards.
                          I understand that there was an education revolution during the
                          industrialisation era of 1880 onwards, but prior to that I've only found a
                          few references to the advent of Lutheran schools and guilds and the
                          establishment of Catholic schools as a reaction to this as part of the
                          anti-reformation movement. I think much of this schooling had a lot to do
                          with the Estate owners. I know that Esterhazy (the Matyusfold Estate in
                          Galanta) built an orphanage which may have also included a school.
                          What is known about early schooling?

                          Thank you

                          Peter M.

                          On 7 February 2013 06:35, CurtB <curt67boc@...> wrote:

                          > **
                          >
                          >
                          > Eric,
                          > In raising the question of the Alias or "do' name it is important to
                          > remember that this was not a uniform practice over time and place, but
                          > varied until it disappeared at the beginning of the 20th century.
                          >
                          > That is, it was much more common in small communities that were partially
                          > illiterate, oral cultures, and without possessing documents. Their births,
                          > deaths, and marriages were simply recorded by clergy in the church books
                          > according to what the clergy either 'knew' or the people told them. People
                          > did not even remember their birthdays accurately,but they celebrated
                          > saint's days which were known through the church calendar.
                          >
                          > Aliases or name changes came about from the case you mention here but also
                          > but also following spousal deaths and remarriages. So children of first
                          > marriages followed by a death of a father and a mother's remarriage often
                          > took on the name of the second father with no formal procedure in place,
                          > just custom. It just became too difficult for neighbors to remember what to
                          > call which child. My own grandmother was married twice and the children of
                          > the first marriage took on the name of her second husband without much
                          > question, though within the family we knew the whole story and
                          > differentiated them with an alias. Our grandmother's entire family also had
                          > a third alias to differentiate it from from another set of rather distant
                          > cousins who shared first names. This alias persisted even when the original
                          > last name was no longer shared by women who had married and had children.
                          >
                          > Some aliases were taken on by which house one might move into. It was rare
                          > to move into a house not inherited in some way so when it happened one
                          > might be called by a name of a former family who occupied that home. So a
                          > man might be called by neighbors - John Smith who lives in the Zobrak home
                          > - and eventually just John Zobrak.
                          >
                          > Some aliases were taken on by men who married a woman in another village
                          > and went to live with her family. Since local villagers knew her family but
                          > not him, he would just take on her family name.
                          >
                          > Some aliases were taken on by men who married women of different class, or
                          > who were owners or heiresses of land when the husband was not.
                          >
                          > And while I have not found a case in church records, it seems not unlikely
                          > that, just as in this country presently, people sometimes take on an alias
                          > by moving and escaping a bad reputation.:)
                          >
                          > Curt B.
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "tkejuice1208" wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Thanks to all who have provided input. These discussions are always very
                          > interesting and I encourage additional input that may be of value. To
                          > answer a previous question, I have not yet seen the alias in reverse
                          > (Hajducsek, alias Skop).
                          > >
                          > > As the wheels continue to turn in my head, I thought of an event that
                          > may trigger an alias. Please let know if you can verify such an occurrence
                          > or otherwise know this to be true. The scenario is that unwed mother gives
                          > birth to child "A" (illeg). Child is baptized with mother's maiden surname.
                          > Mother marries and had additional children who carry the surname of the
                          > father. Child "A" has mother's maiden surname, but can be associated with
                          > the family unit/household that bears the surname of the husband, therefore
                          > triggering the alias by association.
                          > >
                          > > Thoughts?
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • tkejuice1208
                          Thanks Curt, Peter and everyone else for your contributions. The dialogue has certainly helped me and will definitely help others prepare research strategies
                          Message 12 of 15 , Feb 7, 2013
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                            Thanks Curt, Peter and everyone else for your contributions. The dialogue has certainly helped me and will definitely help others prepare research strategies aimed at overcoming the alias obstacle. Please feel free to contact me personally with related information.

                            All the best,

                            Eric Hajducsek



                            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                            >
                            > Thank you Curt!
                            > Your explanation summarises the alias events very well.
                            > I have an oral history (told in 2012) where some branches of the family
                            > were differentiated by nicknames, though still keeping the family name.
                            > The first example was of 'Bartosi Marafko' who bought the land owned by
                            > Bartos and the other, 'Olle Marafko' or 'Marafko Olle' where the maiden
                            > name was used.
                            > Neither became aliases or recorded in church books. It was and still is
                            > used for identification in general conversation as a convenience.
                            >
                            > You raise an interesting point about literacy.
                            > Most of us have only the church archives to examine where considerable
                            > spelling variations occurred. If the individual (let's say a marriage pre
                            > 1869) was literate and the scribe wrote the name incorrectly, would he have
                            > an opportunity to read the entry and suggest correction? Were the entries
                            > only for the perusal of the priests? Did tax officials have access to these
                            > records?
                            > It is difficult to find information regarding schooling from 1770 onwards.
                            > I understand that there was an education revolution during the
                            > industrialisation era of 1880 onwards, but prior to that I've only found a
                            > few references to the advent of Lutheran schools and guilds and the
                            > establishment of Catholic schools as a reaction to this as part of the
                            > anti-reformation movement. I think much of this schooling had a lot to do
                            > with the Estate owners. I know that Esterhazy (the Matyusfold Estate in
                            > Galanta) built an orphanage which may have also included a school.
                            > What is known about early schooling?
                            >
                            > Thank you
                            >
                            > Peter M.
                            >
                            > On 7 February 2013 06:35, CurtB wrote:
                            >
                            > > **
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Eric,
                            > > In raising the question of the Alias or "do' name it is important to
                            > > remember that this was not a uniform practice over time and place, but
                            > > varied until it disappeared at the beginning of the 20th century.
                            > >
                            > > That is, it was much more common in small communities that were partially
                            > > illiterate, oral cultures, and without possessing documents. Their births,
                            > > deaths, and marriages were simply recorded by clergy in the church books
                            > > according to what the clergy either 'knew' or the people told them. People
                            > > did not even remember their birthdays accurately,but they celebrated
                            > > saint's days which were known through the church calendar.
                            > >
                            > > Aliases or name changes came about from the case you mention here but also
                            > > but also following spousal deaths and remarriages. So children of first
                            > > marriages followed by a death of a father and a mother's remarriage often
                            > > took on the name of the second father with no formal procedure in place,
                            > > just custom. It just became too difficult for neighbors to remember what to
                            > > call which child. My own grandmother was married twice and the children of
                            > > the first marriage took on the name of her second husband without much
                            > > question, though within the family we knew the whole story and
                            > > differentiated them with an alias. Our grandmother's entire family also had
                            > > a third alias to differentiate it from from another set of rather distant
                            > > cousins who shared first names. This alias persisted even when the original
                            > > last name was no longer shared by women who had married and had children.
                            > >
                            > > Some aliases were taken on by which house one might move into. It was rare
                            > > to move into a house not inherited in some way so when it happened one
                            > > might be called by a name of a former family who occupied that home. So a
                            > > man might be called by neighbors - John Smith who lives in the Zobrak home
                            > > - and eventually just John Zobrak.
                            > >
                            > > Some aliases were taken on by men who married a woman in another village
                            > > and went to live with her family. Since local villagers knew her family but
                            > > not him, he would just take on her family name.
                            > >
                            > > Some aliases were taken on by men who married women of different class, or
                            > > who were owners or heiresses of land when the husband was not.
                            > >
                            > > And while I have not found a case in church records, it seems not unlikely
                            > > that, just as in this country presently, people sometimes take on an alias
                            > > by moving and escaping a bad reputation.:)
                            > >
                            > > Curt B.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "tkejuice1208" wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Thanks to all who have provided input. These discussions are always very
                            > > interesting and I encourage additional input that may be of value. To
                            > > answer a previous question, I have not yet seen the alias in reverse
                            > > (Hajducsek, alias Skop).
                            > > >
                            > > > As the wheels continue to turn in my head, I thought of an event that
                            > > may trigger an alias. Please let know if you can verify such an occurrence
                            > > or otherwise know this to be true. The scenario is that unwed mother gives
                            > > birth to child "A" (illeg). Child is baptized with mother's maiden surname.
                            > > Mother marries and had additional children who carry the surname of the
                            > > father. Child "A" has mother's maiden surname, but can be associated with
                            > > the family unit/household that bears the surname of the husband, therefore
                            > > triggering the alias by association.
                            > > >
                            > > > Thoughts?
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • Zuzana
                            Hi, after my experience alias or also known as... are nicknames.They were necessary in each willage because of so many namesakes. I can imagine 3-4 Mathias
                            Message 13 of 15 , Feb 18, 2013
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                              Hi,
                              after my experience "alias" or "also known as..." are nicknames.They were necessary in each willage because of so many namesakes. I can imagine 3-4 Mathias Skop in one willage, so they call him also Kuhar or Hajducsek because his next door neighbour was Kuhar or Hajducsek,or his mother/Grandmother maidenname was Kuhar or Hajducsek. All nicknames had some reason.
                              By the way :almost every Slovak willage had writer/notarius who could write Latin and Hungarian. Priests usually did not make recording.
                              Zuzana (born and grew up in Slovakia)

                              --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" <curt67boc@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Peter & Eric,
                              > Careful here translating the Latin.
                              >
                              > The text says that 'this day was baptized Joannes the son of Mathias Skop, also known as Kuhar or (more often) Hajducsek.'
                              >
                              > So the priest is recording the family name as Skop, but also indicating they using two alias names. The vel here is indeterminate and probably just means 'or' but it does not indicate a name preference, and certainly not the primary name, which is Skop.
                              >
                              > Curt B.
                              >
                              > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hello Eric,
                              > >
                              > > "Does Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been
                              > > dropped in favor of Hajducsek going forward? Might he have been born simply
                              > > as Andras Skop? Or might the use of Hajducsek have begun in previous
                              > > generations?"
                              > >
                              > > The 'vel' in the 1795 record is Latin and translates to 'or' but also has a
                              > > meaning 'in particular'. So the priest at the time recorded the original
                              > > family name as originally 'Hajducsek'. The 1847 record shows that 'Skop'
                              > > and 'Hajducsek' were still linked, but no mention of 'Kuhar'. This shows
                              > > that there is some consistency within the records, at least as far as the
                              > > priest(s)/scribes were consistent. The 'Hajducsek' name appearing as early
                              > > as 1785 in the nearby village of Pol'ov cements that name as the original.
                              > > I'm presuming that there was no 'Skop' alias in that record?
                              > > So we can't say that one name took over the other at this stage, but the
                              > > family wanted to be known by both names, so you need to follow the Skop and
                              > > Hajducsek names from at least 1795 onwards.
                              > >
                              > > Joannes, son of Mathias, born in June 14th 1795 would of been 23 at the
                              > > time of Andras's birth. Andras could be Joannes's son, or brother.
                              > > As for Mathias's alias madness, I'll email you directly on possibilities.
                              > >
                              > > Peter M.
                              > >
                              > > On 5 February 2013 06:16, tkejuice1208 wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > **
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Hello all. After a year of some fairly intense research and a lot of
                              > > > confusion, I am reaching out for assistance. The subject of the research is
                              > > > Andras Hajducsek from Saca, a village a short distance south / southwest of
                              > > > Kosice. The surname was not a popular one in Saca or the neighboring
                              > > > villages of Mala Ida and Pol'ov so I do not believe that there was more
                              > > > than one adult Andras Hajducsek of the same approximate age within my
                              > > > window of research. Searching LDS records from Roman Catholic parishes in
                              > > > the area, I have only been able to locate marriage and death records for
                              > > > Andras. The marriage record from 1/28/1846 shows a 24 year old groom and
                              > > > his 20 year old bride Anna Krisztianko from Saca. This places his year of
                              > > > birth at 1821 or 1822. His death record on 1/24/1881 shows his widow Anna
                              > > > Krisztanko and lists his age at 63. This places his YOB at 1817 or 1818. I
                              > > > have not been able to locate his baptismal record despite searching RC
                              > > > records in several area villages across all years 1815 â€" 1825.
                              > > >
                              > > > My first thought is that Andras Hajducsek and family may have migrated
                              > > > from another village but the surname, as far as I can tell, appears in the
                              > > > area as early as 1785 in Pol'ov. Still, I cannot document his birth and
                              > > > parentage.
                              > > >
                              > > > I am worried that this research is being complicated by aliases. Andras
                              > > > and Anna had a son (Andras) on 8/27/1847 in Saca. The name of the father
                              > > > was recorded as Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop. This connection
                              > > > to the Skop surname is further complicated by a possible relative from the
                              > > > late 1700's whose name was recorded as Mathias Skop, alias Kuhar vel (I
                              > > > think it is "vel") Hajducsek on the record from 5/14/1795 that I have
                              > > > linked to:
                              > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22646-26414-74?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-R7W:n1744020469
                              > > >
                              > > > I have always been confused by the use of the alias in terms of which is
                              > > > the old name and which carries forward, but the apparent use of three
                              > > > surnames has created a nightmare. I have never seen three surnames recorded
                              > > > for 1 person and cannot begin to make sense of it.
                              > > >
                              > > > Since I don't know that Mathias and Andras were related, I am focusing on
                              > > > establishing the Hajducsek Skop connection. Does Hajducsek Andras maskep
                              > > > (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been dropped in favor of Hajducsek
                              > > > going forward? Might he have been born simply as Andras Skop? Or might the
                              > > > use of Hajducsek have begun in previous generations?
                              > > >
                              > > > Can anyone explain Mathias and his alias madness???
                              > > >
                              > > > Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
                              > > >
                              > > > Thank you!
                              > > >
                              > > > Eric Hajducsek
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
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