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Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family

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  • deeellessbee
    Yes, Peter, thank you for this info. Looks like my family had a milk cow! Debbie
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 31, 2013
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      Yes, Peter, thank you for this info. Looks like my family had a milk cow!

      Debbie

      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
      >
      > Hi Larry,
      >
      > The classification of bulls, cows, oxen and 'borju' - calves into Hungarian
      > or Swiss was important to the economy. I got most of this info from bits
      > and pieces during wider research in genealogy and so generally not set in
      > stone.
      >
      > The beef trade between all of old Hungary and Europe from about 1560
      > onwards became increasingly important. It was one aspect that both the
      > Turks and the Hungarians saw eye to eye on and became a mutual endeavour.
      > The Swiss (Svajczi) cows were prized for their milk in quality and
      > quantity. They were not used as work animals.
      > The Magyar cows and calves (veal - up to 3 years of age) were generally
      > meat animals. Magyar cows are brown and have prominent Y shaped long
      > straight horns and are easy to identify.
      > Selected bulls of both breeds were kept as studs. The younger bull calves
      > were kept as steers and for veal.
      > So it was important to know if a farm had a Swiss or Magyar bull.
      > I read that at the height of the beef trade, over 100,000 animals/year were
      > sent to Europe under the auspices of the Turks and Royal/Transylvanian
      > Hungarians. It certainly gave me a different perspective about the
      > importance of the plains of Pannonia and why so many wanted to control it
      > through political, religious and economic measures.
      >
      > Peter M.
      >
      > On 30 January 2013 07:03, wrote:
      >
      > > **
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi Debbie
      > >
      > > The 1869 census is a goldmine of data for how our ancestors lived. I
      > > think your problem is in using it to put the family together.
      > >
      > > Maybe it would be easier to build the family [including cousins] from
      > > birth/bapt and marriage records first.
      > >
      > > For the two men in question you could search through all records for
      > > the time period...give and take a few years ei ther way. You can record all
      > > the right surnames for that time period and then use house numbers and
      > > godparents to help you get an idea of relationships. Also with marriage
      > > records you'll have maiden names and witnesses....a lot of times marriage
      > > witnesses will be godparents to the couple's subsequant children or
      > > godparent to the person being married...but it all helps to build families.
      > >
      > > It's time consuming but when you have all that data from the time
      > > period you'll be able to get a good picture of the different families..You
      > > should be able to start seeing connections and relationships.
      > >
      > > Then the 1869 census will help confirm and enhance what you found in the
      > > birth and marriage records.
      > >
      > > This is my personal method, but like I said, it's time consuming and
      > > maybe someone else has a more effcient method.
      > >
      > > My great grandfather's family shared a house with his cousin's family. I
      > > had the same problem as you;...two heads of household with same surname and
      > > given names...and birth dates that were only a few years apart. They ended
      > > up as cousins.
      > >
      > > Using only the data from the 1869 census you can only make assumptions.
      > >
      > > Good luck Debbie...
      > >
      > > Larry
      > >
      > > interesting sidenote; why are livestock broken down into sub
      > > catagories...i.e. milk cows as opposed to meat cows? was it because they
      > > were taxed at different rates?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > >
      > > From: "deeellessbee" deeellessbee@...>
      > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 11:47:47 AM
      > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which
      > > family
      > >
      > > Peter, thanks for your thoughts and info. I saw that Gyorgy was a widower
      > > with two kids, and I figured he was a relative of some kind, sharing the
      > > house with Janos. It's just that birth date that's throwing me off. My
      > > first thought (before realizing they have the same birth year) was that
      > > they were brothers. Then I thought, well, what are the chances of twins
      > > (certainly possilbe, but probable?) So, maybe it's a cousin... but would
      > > cousins share a house? Again possible... is it more probable that they
      > > were twins or that cousins were sharing a house? Personally, I don't know.
      > > And then there's always the issue of how accurate the birthdates are to
      > > begin with.
      > >
      > > So, there are things to ponder there, certainly. Unfortunately, I have no
      > > idea what Janos's parents names were. I'd have to double-check my notes,
      > > but I think I did find a few options for him for a birth record, but again,
      > > not knowing his parents' names, and the Guman name being not-uncommon, I
      > > have no conclusive answer yet. I suppose I could go back and see if any of
      > > those parents in the possible records for Janos, also have a son Gyorgy,
      > > but again, with a fairly common last name and two common first names, how
      > > can I be sure...? I do believe that I did not come across twins, however,
      > > but maybe that's something to keep an eye out for.
      > >
      > > So, with all this to think about, why is my first thought to browse
      > > through the other families and see if my family owning (only) one cow a
      > > good thing or a bad thing, lol?
      > >
      > > :)
      > > Debbie
      > >
      > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hi,
      > > > There is every possibility that it is your family.
      > > > If you have a look at the 1st and 2nd column headings, it gives evidence
      > > of
      > > > 2 families in the one house.
      > > > The first column- folyo lakas-szam - comes from the word folyo-szam or
      > > > 'running number' but it has lakas - 'householders' in this context. So
      > > it
      > > > says ' a running count of the householders in the house'. I do believe
      > > that
      > > > it means head-of-house - and in your case, there are two of them, Janos
      > > and
      > > > Gyorgy.
      > > > Column 2 says: A Lako szemelyek folyo szama - 'the inhabitants in
      > > running
      > > > order'. The running order was traditional and goes Head of House or
      > > Family
      > > > - almost always the Father, the Wife, the eldest child to the youngest
      > > > child, after that, the grandchildren. This is listed in the title of
      > > column
      > > > 3 as Csalad Feje (Head of Family or Household), Neje (wife), Gyermeke
      > > > (Children), Unokai (Grandchildren).
      > > > So there are 2 entries in column 1 and the name entries in column 2
      > > showing
      > > > the respective number of spouses and children for each head of family.
      > > > Gyorgy was a widower, so no wife, but the children are listed as per the
      > > > running order of each head.
      > > > The totals at the bottom under the double lines show exactly the numbers
      > > -
      > > > 2 families, 7 inhabitants in total comprised of 3 males and 4 females.
      > > >
      > > > As for your other question about the relationship between Gyorgy and
      > > Janos,
      > > > this archive won't give you that. However common knowledge says that if
      > > a
      > > > house is shared, it is always with a relative. Life was hard and in the
      > > > case of an ozvegy, he would be looking for another wife and/or in the
      > > > meantime living with a relative, helping out on the farm and his
      > > children
      > > > being looked after by Janos's wife.
      > > > This sort of thing happens even today, but in particular, my Grandfather
      > > > and wife lived with his father-in-law till 1942. My great aunt lives
      > > with
      > > > her daughter's family to this day after her husband died. Sometimes the
      > > > passage of time doesn't change much!
      > > > In your case though, I would try and decode the GK records for 1825 and
      > > > find out the relationships between Gyorgy and Janos.
      > > >
      > > > Peter M.
      > > >
      > > > On 29 January 2013 13:39, deeellessbee wrote:
      > > >
      > > > > **
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Peter thanks for that help. Thanks especially for the "has a
      > > lot/parcel of
      > > > > land" - my translation only said "lot" and while I figured it meant he
      > > had
      > > > > some land, I wasn't quite sure. And I couldn't figure out the
      > > handwriting
      > > > > on the foldumoves - nothing was working in google translate for that
      > > one!
      > > > > Thanks! What do you think the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos
      > > is?
      > > > >
      > > > > After my original post, I looked again and realized that the notation
      > > for
      > > > > Marta Jr. does not look like "leany" which seems to be the regular
      > > notation
      > > > > for daughter/girl. I'm still trying to decide if the word after her
      > > name is
      > > > > something different or if the enumerator just got lazy. I do hope
      > > Marta is
      > > > > the daughter of Janos or this may not be my family.
      > > > >
      > > > > Thanks!
      > > > > Debbie
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I would say that Gyorgy was the father of Maria and Mihaly - he was
      > > > > Ozvegy
      > > > > > - or a widower, working on the land.
      > > > > > All are local. Only Marta can read/write, all the rest can't.
      > > > > > Here is the rest as I see it:
      > > > > > Janos is hazas - 'married' 6th numbered column; telkes - has a lot
      > > > > (parcel
      > > > > > of land); foldmuves (foldmuveles) - 'tiller of the soil'; vagas
      > > Mikilos -
      > > > > > is the name of the village I presume, though in reverse order of the
      > > > > title
      > > > > > page.
      > > > > > Marta is the wife - 'neje' - and ferjes - 'has a husband'
      > > > > > Anna - leany 'young woman' - hajadon - unmarried
      > > > > > Marta - (can't read the note but I presume it means girl) -
      > > > > > Gyorgy - as above
      > > > > > Maria - leany - hajadon
      > > > > > Mihaly - fia - his (Gyorgy's boy)
      > > > > >
      > > > > > All seem to work the land as there is no other distinction made for
      > > > > > employment.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > The previous page describes the home:
      > > > > > They lived in number 68
      > > > > > Foldszint - single storey
      > > > > > Szoba - 1 room
      > > > > > Kamra - A pantry
      > > > > > Eloszoba - a hall or vestibule - commonly a sunroom.
      > > > > > Raktar - a storeroom
      > > > > > Csur - a barn.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Hope that helps
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Peter M.
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > On 29 January 2013 11:47, deeellessbee wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > > **
      > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided
      > > to
      > > > > > > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
      > > > > > > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her
      > > parents
      > > > > Janos
      > > > > > > and Marta.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc.
      > > goes
      > > > > with
      > > > > > > her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it
      > > (image
      > > > > 139)?
      > > > > > > I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
      > > > > there is
      > > > > > > any notation saying which is which anyway.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-CZP:1513958199
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family
      > > in the
      > > > > > > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos'
      > > brother.
      > > > > He is
      > > > > > > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose
      > > they
      > > > > could
      > > > > > > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are
      > > > > cousins
      > > > > > > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family?
      > > The
      > > > > > > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a
      > > > > birth
      > > > > > > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born
      > > in
      > > > > 1830,
      > > > > > > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other
      > > info
      > > > > > > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not
      > > given,
      > > > > so how
      > > > > > > sure can I be this is my family?
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column
      > > > > entries, it
      > > > > > > would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty
      > > well,
      > > > > and
      > > > > > > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate
      > > is
      > > > > the
      > > > > > > pits, quite frankly.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Thank you for any help!
      > > > > > > Debbie
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
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