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Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family

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  • htcstech
    Hi Larry, The classification of bulls, cows, oxen and borju - calves into Hungarian or Swiss was important to the economy. I got most of this info from bits
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 29, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Larry,

      The classification of bulls, cows, oxen and 'borju' - calves into Hungarian
      or Swiss was important to the economy. I got most of this info from bits
      and pieces during wider research in genealogy and so generally not set in
      stone.

      The beef trade between all of old Hungary and Europe from about 1560
      onwards became increasingly important. It was one aspect that both the
      Turks and the Hungarians saw eye to eye on and became a mutual endeavour.
      The Swiss (Svajczi) cows were prized for their milk in quality and
      quantity. They were not used as work animals.
      The Magyar cows and calves (veal - up to 3 years of age) were generally
      meat animals. Magyar cows are brown and have prominent Y shaped long
      straight horns and are easy to identify.
      Selected bulls of both breeds were kept as studs. The younger bull calves
      were kept as steers and for veal.
      So it was important to know if a farm had a Swiss or Magyar bull.
      I read that at the height of the beef trade, over 100,000 animals/year were
      sent to Europe under the auspices of the Turks and Royal/Transylvanian
      Hungarians. It certainly gave me a different perspective about the
      importance of the plains of Pannonia and why so many wanted to control it
      through political, religious and economic measures.

      Peter M.

      On 30 January 2013 07:03, <lkocik@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi Debbie
      >
      > The 1869 census is a goldmine of data for how our ancestors lived. I
      > think your problem is in using it to put the family together.
      >
      > Maybe it would be easier to build the family [including cousins] from
      > birth/bapt and marriage records first.
      >
      > For the two men in question you could search through all records for
      > the time period...give and take a few years ei ther way. You can record all
      > the right surnames for that time period and then use house numbers and
      > godparents to help you get an idea of relationships. Also with marriage
      > records you'll have maiden names and witnesses....a lot of times marriage
      > witnesses will be godparents to the couple's subsequant children or
      > godparent to the person being married...but it all helps to build families.
      >
      > It's time consuming but when you have all that data from the time
      > period you'll be able to get a good picture of the different families..You
      > should be able to start seeing connections and relationships.
      >
      > Then the 1869 census will help confirm and enhance what you found in the
      > birth and marriage records.
      >
      > This is my personal method, but like I said, it's time consuming and
      > maybe someone else has a more effcient method.
      >
      > My great grandfather's family shared a house with his cousin's family. I
      > had the same problem as you;...two heads of household with same surname and
      > given names...and birth dates that were only a few years apart. They ended
      > up as cousins.
      >
      > Using only the data from the 1869 census you can only make assumptions.
      >
      > Good luck Debbie...
      >
      > Larry
      >
      > interesting sidenote; why are livestock broken down into sub
      > catagories...i.e. milk cows as opposed to meat cows? was it because they
      > were taxed at different rates?
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      >
      > From: "deeellessbee" deeellessbee@...>
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 11:47:47 AM
      > Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which
      > family
      >
      > Peter, thanks for your thoughts and info. I saw that Gyorgy was a widower
      > with two kids, and I figured he was a relative of some kind, sharing the
      > house with Janos. It's just that birth date that's throwing me off. My
      > first thought (before realizing they have the same birth year) was that
      > they were brothers. Then I thought, well, what are the chances of twins
      > (certainly possilbe, but probable?) So, maybe it's a cousin... but would
      > cousins share a house? Again possible... is it more probable that they
      > were twins or that cousins were sharing a house? Personally, I don't know.
      > And then there's always the issue of how accurate the birthdates are to
      > begin with.
      >
      > So, there are things to ponder there, certainly. Unfortunately, I have no
      > idea what Janos's parents names were. I'd have to double-check my notes,
      > but I think I did find a few options for him for a birth record, but again,
      > not knowing his parents' names, and the Guman name being not-uncommon, I
      > have no conclusive answer yet. I suppose I could go back and see if any of
      > those parents in the possible records for Janos, also have a son Gyorgy,
      > but again, with a fairly common last name and two common first names, how
      > can I be sure...? I do believe that I did not come across twins, however,
      > but maybe that's something to keep an eye out for.
      >
      > So, with all this to think about, why is my first thought to browse
      > through the other families and see if my family owning (only) one cow a
      > good thing or a bad thing, lol?
      >
      > :)
      > Debbie
      >
      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi,
      > > There is every possibility that it is your family.
      > > If you have a look at the 1st and 2nd column headings, it gives evidence
      > of
      > > 2 families in the one house.
      > > The first column- folyo lakas-szam - comes from the word folyo-szam or
      > > 'running number' but it has lakas - 'householders' in this context. So
      > it
      > > says ' a running count of the householders in the house'. I do believe
      > that
      > > it means head-of-house - and in your case, there are two of them, Janos
      > and
      > > Gyorgy.
      > > Column 2 says: A Lako szemelyek folyo szama - 'the inhabitants in
      > running
      > > order'. The running order was traditional and goes Head of House or
      > Family
      > > - almost always the Father, the Wife, the eldest child to the youngest
      > > child, after that, the grandchildren. This is listed in the title of
      > column
      > > 3 as Csalad Feje (Head of Family or Household), Neje (wife), Gyermeke
      > > (Children), Unokai (Grandchildren).
      > > So there are 2 entries in column 1 and the name entries in column 2
      > showing
      > > the respective number of spouses and children for each head of family.
      > > Gyorgy was a widower, so no wife, but the children are listed as per the
      > > running order of each head.
      > > The totals at the bottom under the double lines show exactly the numbers
      > -
      > > 2 families, 7 inhabitants in total comprised of 3 males and 4 females.
      > >
      > > As for your other question about the relationship between Gyorgy and
      > Janos,
      > > this archive won't give you that. However common knowledge says that if
      > a
      > > house is shared, it is always with a relative. Life was hard and in the
      > > case of an ozvegy, he would be looking for another wife and/or in the
      > > meantime living with a relative, helping out on the farm and his
      > children
      > > being looked after by Janos's wife.
      > > This sort of thing happens even today, but in particular, my Grandfather
      > > and wife lived with his father-in-law till 1942. My great aunt lives
      > with
      > > her daughter's family to this day after her husband died. Sometimes the
      > > passage of time doesn't change much!
      > > In your case though, I would try and decode the GK records for 1825 and
      > > find out the relationships between Gyorgy and Janos.
      > >
      > > Peter M.
      > >
      > > On 29 January 2013 13:39, deeellessbee wrote:
      > >
      > > > **
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Peter thanks for that help. Thanks especially for the "has a
      > lot/parcel of
      > > > land" - my translation only said "lot" and while I figured it meant he
      > had
      > > > some land, I wasn't quite sure. And I couldn't figure out the
      > handwriting
      > > > on the foldumoves - nothing was working in google translate for that
      > one!
      > > > Thanks! What do you think the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos
      > is?
      > > >
      > > > After my original post, I looked again and realized that the notation
      > for
      > > > Marta Jr. does not look like "leany" which seems to be the regular
      > notation
      > > > for daughter/girl. I'm still trying to decide if the word after her
      > name is
      > > > something different or if the enumerator just got lazy. I do hope
      > Marta is
      > > > the daughter of Janos or this may not be my family.
      > > >
      > > > Thanks!
      > > > Debbie
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > I would say that Gyorgy was the father of Maria and Mihaly - he was
      > > > Ozvegy
      > > > > - or a widower, working on the land.
      > > > > All are local. Only Marta can read/write, all the rest can't.
      > > > > Here is the rest as I see it:
      > > > > Janos is hazas - 'married' 6th numbered column; telkes - has a lot
      > > > (parcel
      > > > > of land); foldmuves (foldmuveles) - 'tiller of the soil'; vagas
      > Mikilos -
      > > > > is the name of the village I presume, though in reverse order of the
      > > > title
      > > > > page.
      > > > > Marta is the wife - 'neje' - and ferjes - 'has a husband'
      > > > > Anna - leany 'young woman' - hajadon - unmarried
      > > > > Marta - (can't read the note but I presume it means girl) -
      > > > > Gyorgy - as above
      > > > > Maria - leany - hajadon
      > > > > Mihaly - fia - his (Gyorgy's boy)
      > > > >
      > > > > All seem to work the land as there is no other distinction made for
      > > > > employment.
      > > > >
      > > > > The previous page describes the home:
      > > > > They lived in number 68
      > > > > Foldszint - single storey
      > > > > Szoba - 1 room
      > > > > Kamra - A pantry
      > > > > Eloszoba - a hall or vestibule - commonly a sunroom.
      > > > > Raktar - a storeroom
      > > > > Csur - a barn.
      > > > >
      > > > > Hope that helps
      > > > >
      > > > > Peter M.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > On 29 January 2013 11:47, deeellessbee wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > > **
      > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided
      > to
      > > > > > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
      > > > > > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her
      > parents
      > > > Janos
      > > > > > and Marta.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc.
      > goes
      > > > with
      > > > > > her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it
      > (image
      > > > 139)?
      > > > > > I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
      > > > there is
      > > > > > any notation saying which is which anyway.
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > >
      > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-CZP:1513958199
      > > > > >
      > > > > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family
      > in the
      > > > > > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos'
      > brother.
      > > > He is
      > > > > > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose
      > they
      > > > could
      > > > > > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are
      > > > cousins
      > > > > > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family?
      > The
      > > > > > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a
      > > > birth
      > > > > > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born
      > in
      > > > 1830,
      > > > > > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other
      > info
      > > > > > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not
      > given,
      > > > so how
      > > > > > sure can I be this is my family?
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column
      > > > entries, it
      > > > > > would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty
      > well,
      > > > and
      > > > > > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate
      > is
      > > > the
      > > > > > pits, quite frankly.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Thank you for any help!
      > > > > > Debbie
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • lrrykck
      Peter  Thank you....  This is the data that you don t find in typical avenues of genealogical research. I wouldn t even know where to begin to look for it.
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 29, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Peter

         Thank you....

         This is the data that you don't find in typical avenues of genealogical research. I wouldn't even know where to begin to look for it.

           Understanding the basis of  the economy and what commodities our  ancestors owned or traded  
         helps to understand their financial status and general lifestyle. 

         I need to revisit the 1869 census with this new information....

         Thanks again Peter.

        Larry 

        ----- Original Message -----


        From: "htcstech" <htcstech@...>
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 3:14:30 PM
        Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family

        Hi Larry,

        The classification of bulls, cows, oxen and 'borju' - calves into Hungarian
        or Swiss was important to the economy. I got most of this info from bits
        and pieces during wider research in genealogy and so generally not set in
        stone.

        The beef trade between all of old Hungary and Europe from about 1560
        onwards became increasingly important. It was one aspect that both the
        Turks and the Hungarians saw eye to eye on and became a mutual endeavour.
        The Swiss (Svajczi) cows were prized for their milk in quality and
        quantity. They were not used as work animals.
        The Magyar cows and calves (veal - up to 3 years of age) were generally
        meat animals. Magyar cows are brown and have prominent Y shaped long
        straight horns and are easy to identify.
        Selected bulls of both breeds were kept as studs. The younger bull calves
        were kept as steers and for veal.
        So it was important to know if a farm had a Swiss or Magyar bull.
        I read that at the height of the beef trade, over 100,000 animals/year were
        sent to Europe under the auspices of the Turks and Royal/Transylvanian
        Hungarians. It certainly gave me a different perspective about the
        importance of the plains of Pannonia and why so many wanted to control it
        through political, religious and economic measures.

        Peter M.

        On 30 January 2013 07:03, <lkocik@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi Debbie
        >
        >    The 1869 census is a goldmine of data for how our ancestors lived. I
        > think your problem is in using it to put the family together.
        >
        >  Maybe it would be easier to build the family [including cousins] from
        > birth/bapt and marriage records first.
        >
        >     For the two men in question you could search through all records for
        > the time period...give and take a few years ei ther way. You can record all
        > the right surnames for that time period and then use house numbers and
        > godparents to help you get an idea of relationships. Also with marriage
        > records you'll have maiden names and witnesses....a lot of times marriage
        > witnesses will be godparents to the couple's subsequant children or
        > godparent to the person being married...but it all helps to build families.
        >
        >     It's time consuming but when you have all that data from the time
        > period you'll be able to get a good picture of the different families..You
        > should be able to start seeing connections and relationships.
        >
        >  Then the 1869 census will help confirm and enhance what you found in the
        > birth and marriage records.
        >
        >  This is my personal method, but like I said, it's time consuming and
        > maybe someone else has a more effcient method.
        >
        >  My great grandfather's family shared a house with his cousin's family. I
        > had the same problem as you;...two heads of household with same surname and
        >  given names...and birth dates that were only a few years apart. They ended
        > up as cousins.
        >
        >  Using only the data from the 1869 census you can only make assumptions.
        >
        > Good luck Debbie...
        >
        > Larry
        >
        > interesting sidenote;  why are livestock broken down into sub
        > catagories...i.e. milk cows as opposed to meat cows? was it because they
        > were taxed at different rates?
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        >
        > From: "deeellessbee" deeellessbee@...>
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 11:47:47 AM
        > Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which
        > family
        >
        > Peter, thanks for your thoughts and info.  I saw that Gyorgy was a widower
        > with two kids, and I figured he was a relative of some kind, sharing the
        > house with Janos.  It's just that birth date that's throwing me off.  My
        > first thought (before realizing they have the same birth year) was that
        > they were brothers.  Then I thought, well, what are the chances of twins
        > (certainly possilbe, but probable?)  So, maybe it's a cousin... but would
        > cousins share a house?  Again possible... is it more probable that they
        > were twins or that cousins were sharing a house?  Personally, I don't know.
        >  And then there's always the issue of how accurate the birthdates are to
        > begin with.
        >
        > So, there are things to ponder there, certainly.  Unfortunately, I have no
        > idea what Janos's parents names were.  I'd have to double-check my notes,
        > but I think I did find a few options for him for a birth record, but again,
        > not knowing his parents' names, and the Guman name being not-uncommon, I
        > have no conclusive answer yet.  I suppose I could go back and see if any of
        > those parents in the possible records for Janos, also have a son Gyorgy,
        > but again, with a fairly common last name and two common first names, how
        > can I be sure...?  I do believe that I did not come across twins, however,
        > but maybe that's something to keep an eye out for.
        >
        > So, with all this to think about, why is my first thought to browse
        > through the other families and see if my family owning (only) one cow a
        > good thing or a bad thing, lol?
        >
        > :)
        > Debbie
        >
        > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech  wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi,
        > > There is every possibility that it is your family.
        > > If you have a look at the 1st and 2nd column headings, it gives evidence
        > of
        > > 2 families in the one house.
        > > The first column- folyo lakas-szam - comes from the word folyo-szam or
        > > 'running number' but it has lakas - 'householders' in this context. So
        > it
        > > says ' a running count of the householders in the house'. I do believe
        > that
        > > it means head-of-house - and in your case, there are two of them, Janos
        > and
        > > Gyorgy.
        > > Column 2 says: A Lako szemelyek folyo szama - 'the inhabitants in
        > running
        > > order'. The running order was traditional and goes Head of House or
        > Family
        > > - almost always the Father, the Wife, the eldest child to the youngest
        > > child, after that, the grandchildren. This is listed in the title of
        > column
        > > 3 as Csalad Feje (Head of Family or Household), Neje (wife), Gyermeke
        > > (Children), Unokai (Grandchildren).
        > > So there are 2 entries in column 1 and the name entries in column 2
        > showing
        > > the respective number of spouses and children for each head of family.
        > > Gyorgy was a widower, so no wife, but the children are listed as per the
        > > running order of each head.
        > > The totals at the bottom under the double lines show exactly the numbers
        > -
        > > 2 families, 7 inhabitants in total comprised of 3 males and 4 females.
        > >
        > > As for your other question about the relationship between Gyorgy and
        > Janos,
        > > this archive won't give you that. However common knowledge says that if
        > a
        > > house is shared, it is always with a relative. Life was hard and in the
        > > case of an ozvegy, he would be looking for another wife and/or in the
        > > meantime living with a relative, helping out on the farm and his
        > children
        > > being looked after by Janos's wife.
        > > This sort of thing happens even today, but in particular, my Grandfather
        > > and wife lived with his father-in-law till 1942. My great aunt lives
        > with
        > > her daughter's family to this day after her husband died. Sometimes the
        > > passage of time doesn't change much!
        > > In your case though, I would try and decode the GK records for 1825 and
        > > find out the relationships between Gyorgy and Janos.
        > >
        > > Peter M.
        > >
        > > On 29 January 2013 13:39, deeellessbee  wrote:
        > >
        > > > **
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Peter thanks for that help. Thanks especially for the "has a
        > lot/parcel of
        > > > land" - my translation only said "lot" and while I figured it meant he
        > had
        > > > some land, I wasn't quite sure. And I couldn't figure out the
        > handwriting
        > > > on the foldumoves - nothing was working in google translate for that
        > one!
        > > > Thanks! What do you think the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos
        > is?
        > > >
        > > > After my original post, I looked again and realized that the notation
        > for
        > > > Marta Jr. does not look like "leany" which seems to be the regular
        > notation
        > > > for daughter/girl. I'm still trying to decide if the word after her
        > name is
        > > > something different or if the enumerator just got lazy. I do hope
        > Marta is
        > > > the daughter of Janos or this may not be my family.
        > > >
        > > > Thanks!
        > > > Debbie
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > I would say that Gyorgy was the father of Maria and Mihaly - he was
        > > > Ozvegy
        > > > > - or a widower, working on the land.
        > > > > All are local. Only Marta can read/write, all the rest can't.
        > > > > Here is the rest as I see it:
        > > > > Janos is hazas - 'married' 6th numbered column; telkes - has a lot
        > > > (parcel
        > > > > of land); foldmuves (foldmuveles) - 'tiller of the soil'; vagas
        > Mikilos -
        > > > > is the name of the village I presume, though in reverse order of the
        > > > title
        > > > > page.
        > > > > Marta is the wife - 'neje' - and ferjes - 'has a husband'
        > > > > Anna - leany 'young woman' - hajadon - unmarried
        > > > > Marta - (can't read the note but I presume it means girl) -
        > > > > Gyorgy - as above
        > > > > Maria - leany - hajadon
        > > > > Mihaly - fia - his (Gyorgy's boy)
        > > > >
        > > > > All seem to work the land as there is no other distinction made for
        > > > > employment.
        > > > >
        > > > > The previous page describes the home:
        > > > > They lived in number 68
        > > > > Foldszint - single storey
        > > > > Szoba - 1 room
        > > > > Kamra - A pantry
        > > > > Eloszoba - a hall or vestibule - commonly a sunroom.
        > > > > Raktar - a storeroom
        > > > > Csur - a barn.
        > > > >
        > > > > Hope that helps
        > > > >
        > > > > Peter M.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > On 29 January 2013 11:47, deeellessbee wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > > **
        > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided
        > to
        > > > > > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
        > > > > > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her
        > parents
        > > > Janos
        > > > > > and Marta.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc.
        > goes
        > > > with
        > > > > > her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it
        > (image
        > > > 139)?
        > > > > > I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
        > > > there is
        > > > > > any notation saying which is which anyway.
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > >
        > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-CZP:1513958199
        > > > > >
        > > > > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family
        > in the
        > > > > > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos'
        > brother.
        > > > He is
        > > > > > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose
        > they
        > > > could
        > > > > > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are
        > > > cousins
        > > > > > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family?
        > The
        > > > > > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a
        > > > birth
        > > > > > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born
        > in
        > > > 1830,
        > > > > > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other
        > info
        > > > > > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not
        > given,
        > > > so how
        > > > > > sure can I be this is my family?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column
        > > > entries, it
        > > > > > would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty
        > well,
        > > > and
        > > > > > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate
        > is
        > > > the
        > > > > > pits, quite frankly.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Thank you for any help!
        > > > > > Debbie
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >  
        >


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      • deeellessbee
        Yes, Peter, thank you for this info. Looks like my family had a milk cow! Debbie
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 31, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Yes, Peter, thank you for this info. Looks like my family had a milk cow!

          Debbie

          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
          >
          > Hi Larry,
          >
          > The classification of bulls, cows, oxen and 'borju' - calves into Hungarian
          > or Swiss was important to the economy. I got most of this info from bits
          > and pieces during wider research in genealogy and so generally not set in
          > stone.
          >
          > The beef trade between all of old Hungary and Europe from about 1560
          > onwards became increasingly important. It was one aspect that both the
          > Turks and the Hungarians saw eye to eye on and became a mutual endeavour.
          > The Swiss (Svajczi) cows were prized for their milk in quality and
          > quantity. They were not used as work animals.
          > The Magyar cows and calves (veal - up to 3 years of age) were generally
          > meat animals. Magyar cows are brown and have prominent Y shaped long
          > straight horns and are easy to identify.
          > Selected bulls of both breeds were kept as studs. The younger bull calves
          > were kept as steers and for veal.
          > So it was important to know if a farm had a Swiss or Magyar bull.
          > I read that at the height of the beef trade, over 100,000 animals/year were
          > sent to Europe under the auspices of the Turks and Royal/Transylvanian
          > Hungarians. It certainly gave me a different perspective about the
          > importance of the plains of Pannonia and why so many wanted to control it
          > through political, religious and economic measures.
          >
          > Peter M.
          >
          > On 30 January 2013 07:03, wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Hi Debbie
          > >
          > > The 1869 census is a goldmine of data for how our ancestors lived. I
          > > think your problem is in using it to put the family together.
          > >
          > > Maybe it would be easier to build the family [including cousins] from
          > > birth/bapt and marriage records first.
          > >
          > > For the two men in question you could search through all records for
          > > the time period...give and take a few years ei ther way. You can record all
          > > the right surnames for that time period and then use house numbers and
          > > godparents to help you get an idea of relationships. Also with marriage
          > > records you'll have maiden names and witnesses....a lot of times marriage
          > > witnesses will be godparents to the couple's subsequant children or
          > > godparent to the person being married...but it all helps to build families.
          > >
          > > It's time consuming but when you have all that data from the time
          > > period you'll be able to get a good picture of the different families..You
          > > should be able to start seeing connections and relationships.
          > >
          > > Then the 1869 census will help confirm and enhance what you found in the
          > > birth and marriage records.
          > >
          > > This is my personal method, but like I said, it's time consuming and
          > > maybe someone else has a more effcient method.
          > >
          > > My great grandfather's family shared a house with his cousin's family. I
          > > had the same problem as you;...two heads of household with same surname and
          > > given names...and birth dates that were only a few years apart. They ended
          > > up as cousins.
          > >
          > > Using only the data from the 1869 census you can only make assumptions.
          > >
          > > Good luck Debbie...
          > >
          > > Larry
          > >
          > > interesting sidenote; why are livestock broken down into sub
          > > catagories...i.e. milk cows as opposed to meat cows? was it because they
          > > were taxed at different rates?
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > >
          > > From: "deeellessbee" deeellessbee@...>
          > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 11:47:47 AM
          > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which
          > > family
          > >
          > > Peter, thanks for your thoughts and info. I saw that Gyorgy was a widower
          > > with two kids, and I figured he was a relative of some kind, sharing the
          > > house with Janos. It's just that birth date that's throwing me off. My
          > > first thought (before realizing they have the same birth year) was that
          > > they were brothers. Then I thought, well, what are the chances of twins
          > > (certainly possilbe, but probable?) So, maybe it's a cousin... but would
          > > cousins share a house? Again possible... is it more probable that they
          > > were twins or that cousins were sharing a house? Personally, I don't know.
          > > And then there's always the issue of how accurate the birthdates are to
          > > begin with.
          > >
          > > So, there are things to ponder there, certainly. Unfortunately, I have no
          > > idea what Janos's parents names were. I'd have to double-check my notes,
          > > but I think I did find a few options for him for a birth record, but again,
          > > not knowing his parents' names, and the Guman name being not-uncommon, I
          > > have no conclusive answer yet. I suppose I could go back and see if any of
          > > those parents in the possible records for Janos, also have a son Gyorgy,
          > > but again, with a fairly common last name and two common first names, how
          > > can I be sure...? I do believe that I did not come across twins, however,
          > > but maybe that's something to keep an eye out for.
          > >
          > > So, with all this to think about, why is my first thought to browse
          > > through the other families and see if my family owning (only) one cow a
          > > good thing or a bad thing, lol?
          > >
          > > :)
          > > Debbie
          > >
          > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Hi,
          > > > There is every possibility that it is your family.
          > > > If you have a look at the 1st and 2nd column headings, it gives evidence
          > > of
          > > > 2 families in the one house.
          > > > The first column- folyo lakas-szam - comes from the word folyo-szam or
          > > > 'running number' but it has lakas - 'householders' in this context. So
          > > it
          > > > says ' a running count of the householders in the house'. I do believe
          > > that
          > > > it means head-of-house - and in your case, there are two of them, Janos
          > > and
          > > > Gyorgy.
          > > > Column 2 says: A Lako szemelyek folyo szama - 'the inhabitants in
          > > running
          > > > order'. The running order was traditional and goes Head of House or
          > > Family
          > > > - almost always the Father, the Wife, the eldest child to the youngest
          > > > child, after that, the grandchildren. This is listed in the title of
          > > column
          > > > 3 as Csalad Feje (Head of Family or Household), Neje (wife), Gyermeke
          > > > (Children), Unokai (Grandchildren).
          > > > So there are 2 entries in column 1 and the name entries in column 2
          > > showing
          > > > the respective number of spouses and children for each head of family.
          > > > Gyorgy was a widower, so no wife, but the children are listed as per the
          > > > running order of each head.
          > > > The totals at the bottom under the double lines show exactly the numbers
          > > -
          > > > 2 families, 7 inhabitants in total comprised of 3 males and 4 females.
          > > >
          > > > As for your other question about the relationship between Gyorgy and
          > > Janos,
          > > > this archive won't give you that. However common knowledge says that if
          > > a
          > > > house is shared, it is always with a relative. Life was hard and in the
          > > > case of an ozvegy, he would be looking for another wife and/or in the
          > > > meantime living with a relative, helping out on the farm and his
          > > children
          > > > being looked after by Janos's wife.
          > > > This sort of thing happens even today, but in particular, my Grandfather
          > > > and wife lived with his father-in-law till 1942. My great aunt lives
          > > with
          > > > her daughter's family to this day after her husband died. Sometimes the
          > > > passage of time doesn't change much!
          > > > In your case though, I would try and decode the GK records for 1825 and
          > > > find out the relationships between Gyorgy and Janos.
          > > >
          > > > Peter M.
          > > >
          > > > On 29 January 2013 13:39, deeellessbee wrote:
          > > >
          > > > > **
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Peter thanks for that help. Thanks especially for the "has a
          > > lot/parcel of
          > > > > land" - my translation only said "lot" and while I figured it meant he
          > > had
          > > > > some land, I wasn't quite sure. And I couldn't figure out the
          > > handwriting
          > > > > on the foldumoves - nothing was working in google translate for that
          > > one!
          > > > > Thanks! What do you think the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos
          > > is?
          > > > >
          > > > > After my original post, I looked again and realized that the notation
          > > for
          > > > > Marta Jr. does not look like "leany" which seems to be the regular
          > > notation
          > > > > for daughter/girl. I'm still trying to decide if the word after her
          > > name is
          > > > > something different or if the enumerator just got lazy. I do hope
          > > Marta is
          > > > > the daughter of Janos or this may not be my family.
          > > > >
          > > > > Thanks!
          > > > > Debbie
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I would say that Gyorgy was the father of Maria and Mihaly - he was
          > > > > Ozvegy
          > > > > > - or a widower, working on the land.
          > > > > > All are local. Only Marta can read/write, all the rest can't.
          > > > > > Here is the rest as I see it:
          > > > > > Janos is hazas - 'married' 6th numbered column; telkes - has a lot
          > > > > (parcel
          > > > > > of land); foldmuves (foldmuveles) - 'tiller of the soil'; vagas
          > > Mikilos -
          > > > > > is the name of the village I presume, though in reverse order of the
          > > > > title
          > > > > > page.
          > > > > > Marta is the wife - 'neje' - and ferjes - 'has a husband'
          > > > > > Anna - leany 'young woman' - hajadon - unmarried
          > > > > > Marta - (can't read the note but I presume it means girl) -
          > > > > > Gyorgy - as above
          > > > > > Maria - leany - hajadon
          > > > > > Mihaly - fia - his (Gyorgy's boy)
          > > > > >
          > > > > > All seem to work the land as there is no other distinction made for
          > > > > > employment.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > The previous page describes the home:
          > > > > > They lived in number 68
          > > > > > Foldszint - single storey
          > > > > > Szoba - 1 room
          > > > > > Kamra - A pantry
          > > > > > Eloszoba - a hall or vestibule - commonly a sunroom.
          > > > > > Raktar - a storeroom
          > > > > > Csur - a barn.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Hope that helps
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Peter M.
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > On 29 January 2013 11:47, deeellessbee wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > > **
          > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided
          > > to
          > > > > > > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
          > > > > > > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her
          > > parents
          > > > > Janos
          > > > > > > and Marta.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc.
          > > goes
          > > > > with
          > > > > > > her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it
          > > (image
          > > > > 139)?
          > > > > > > I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
          > > > > there is
          > > > > > > any notation saying which is which anyway.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-CZP:1513958199
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family
          > > in the
          > > > > > > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos'
          > > brother.
          > > > > He is
          > > > > > > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose
          > > they
          > > > > could
          > > > > > > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are
          > > > > cousins
          > > > > > > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family?
          > > The
          > > > > > > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a
          > > > > birth
          > > > > > > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born
          > > in
          > > > > 1830,
          > > > > > > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other
          > > info
          > > > > > > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not
          > > given,
          > > > > so how
          > > > > > > sure can I be this is my family?
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column
          > > > > entries, it
          > > > > > > would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty
          > > well,
          > > > > and
          > > > > > > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate
          > > is
          > > > > the
          > > > > > > pits, quite frankly.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Thank you for any help!
          > > > > > > Debbie
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
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