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Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family

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  • htcstech
    Ok. image 137 right side is the house and description, 138 about the inhabitants, 139 left side is the livestock etc. They had 1 cow - (tehen). Peter M. ...
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 28, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      Ok. image 137 right side is the house and description, 138 about the
      inhabitants, 139 left side is the livestock etc. They had 1 cow - (tehen).

      Peter M.

      On 29 January 2013 12:53, deeellessbee <deeellessbee@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > Michael, thank you for that detailed answer - if it isn't already, that
      > post (your answer) should be somewhere permanent on this site for people to
      > refer to! I appreciate the time you took to type all that information.
      >
      > But my main question was, which page goes with my family? It appears to me
      > there are two pages/images for each family. There is the page with the
      > listing of names, and then there is the two-paged sheet with the questions
      > regarding the livestock inventory and the housing description.
      >
      > My question was, how do I know which livestock inventory/housing
      > description goes with the list of names? Is it the one before the list of
      > names, or the one after it? I can't seem to find any indentifying info on
      > the inventory/housing sheet that links it to the family.
      >
      > Thanks!
      > Debbie
      >
      >
      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "MGMojher" wrote:
      > >
      > > About 1869 Census:
      > > Census of Residents: The leftmost two columns (0 and 1) simply represent
      > the house number, and numbered lines for each individual recorded.
      > > Column 2 lists the names of the people. The instructions are simply a
      > long-winded way of saying count everyone who lives at the house.
      > >
      > > Column 3 specifies the sex of each person (ferfi = male and nö =
      > female); and
      > >
      > > Column 4 specifies the birth year of each person.
      > >
      > > Column 5 gives the religion of each individual.
      > >
      > > Column 6 is the marital status of each individual [nös = with wife;
      > ferjes = with husband; hajadon = maiden; nötlen = bachelor; özvégy =
      > widow/er might also be found.]
      > >
      > > Column 7 lists the office(s) held.
      > >
      > > Column 8 identifies the type of work performed; telkes, a smallholder
      > (ie. peasant farmer); telkes seged helper to the smallholder; háztars, a
      > housekeeper; seged -- ie. help out on the farm/house; éves szolga, a
      > year's servant (presumably that's the duration of being hired out) and the
      > children in school, they would probably be listed as students (tanár) .
      >
      > >
      > > Column 9 is birthplace.
      > >
      > > Column 10 is citizenship, helybeli (local) rather than idegen (foreign).
      > >
      > > Columns 11 and 12 relate to whether the persons were at home or away at
      > the time of the census, with special instructions for those who had been
      > away for more than a month.
      > >
      > > Column 13 relates to literacy -- on the left able to read, on the right
      > able to read and write.
      > >
      > > Column 14 was reserved for notes (jegyzet).
      > >
      > > Inventory of Livestock: Horses (ló) are grouped into stallions
      > (csödör), mares (kancza), geldings (herélt), and foals (csikó) under
      > three years. The three categories under each of the first three groups are
      > heavy (nehéz) and light (könnyü) species (fajta) and the total
      > (összesen) for the group. The next two columns are for mules (öszvér)
      > and donkeys (szamár).
      > >
      > > The second large grouping is for horned cattle (szarvasmaha) which are
      > separated into Hungarian (magyar) and Swiss (svájczi) and buffalo
      > (bivaly). The first two of these categories are divided into bulls (bika),
      > cows (tehen), oxen (ökör), and calves (borju) under three years.
      > >
      > > The next two columns are for sheep (juh). They are categorized as either
      > "select" (nemesitett) or "common" (közönséges). This farm had six common
      > sheep. The last three columns are for goats (kecske), pigs (sertés) and
      > finally beehives (méhkas).
      > >
      > > Housing Facilities: Following the identification of the town, and the
      > form headings, is a place for the street address (utcza -- note old
      > spelling of utca) or the house number (házszám). A street address would
      > only be used in larger towns, small villages used house numbers.
      > >
      > > Does the house have? (A lakás rooms): a cellar (pinczében); a ground
      > floor (földszint); a loft (félemeleten); how many upper stories
      > (hányadik emeleten); an attic (padlácson).
      > >
      > > The house is made up of how many? sleeping room (szoba); pantry (kamra);
      > living room (elöszoba); and kitchen (konyha).
      > >
      > > Next is a statement that the house is used only for living (lakásra) --
      > ie. not for business. Then there is a question concerning additional
      > facilities and buildings used for a business. Business-related facilities:
      > shop or store (bolt); pantry (kamra); cellar (pinczér); implement shed
      > (félszer szin); storehouse (raktár); stall (iztállö); sheepfold (akol);
      > barn (csür). In all probability the women did the cooking in the shed,
      > which explains the lack of a kitchen in the house in some houses.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > From: deeellessbee
      > > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 4:47 PM
      > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which
      > family
      > >
      > >
      > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to
      > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
      > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her parents Janos
      > and Marta.
      > >
      > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes
      > with her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image
      > 139)? I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
      > there is any notation saying which is which anyway.
      > >
      > >
      > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-CZP:1513958199
      > >
      > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the
      > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother. He is
      > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they could
      > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are cousins
      > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
      > >
      > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The
      > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a birth
      > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in 1830,
      > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info
      > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not given, so how
      > sure can I be this is my family?
      > >
      > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column entries,
      > it would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well, and
      > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is the
      > pits, quite frankly.
      > >
      > > Thank you for any help!
      > > Debbie
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • deeellessbee
      Peter thanks for that help. Thanks especially for the has a lot/parcel of land - my translation only said lot and while I figured it meant he had some
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 28, 2013
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        Peter thanks for that help. Thanks especially for the "has a lot/parcel of land" - my translation only said "lot" and while I figured it meant he had some land, I wasn't quite sure. And I couldn't figure out the handwriting on the foldumoves - nothing was working in google translate for that one! Thanks! What do you think the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos is?

        After my original post, I looked again and realized that the notation for Marta Jr. does not look like "leany" which seems to be the regular notation for daughter/girl. I'm still trying to decide if the word after her name is something different or if the enumerator just got lazy. I do hope Marta is the daughter of Janos or this may not be my family.

        Thanks!
        Debbie


        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
        >
        > I would say that Gyorgy was the father of Maria and Mihaly - he was Ozvegy
        > - or a widower, working on the land.
        > All are local. Only Marta can read/write, all the rest can't.
        > Here is the rest as I see it:
        > Janos is hazas - 'married' 6th numbered column; telkes - has a lot (parcel
        > of land); foldmuves (foldmuveles) - 'tiller of the soil'; vagas Mikilos -
        > is the name of the village I presume, though in reverse order of the title
        > page.
        > Marta is the wife - 'neje' - and ferjes - 'has a husband'
        > Anna - leany 'young woman' - hajadon - unmarried
        > Marta - (can't read the note but I presume it means girl) -
        > Gyorgy - as above
        > Maria - leany - hajadon
        > Mihaly - fia - his (Gyorgy's boy)
        >
        > All seem to work the land as there is no other distinction made for
        > employment.
        >
        > The previous page describes the home:
        > They lived in number 68
        > Foldszint - single storey
        > Szoba - 1 room
        > Kamra - A pantry
        > Eloszoba - a hall or vestibule - commonly a sunroom.
        > Raktar - a storeroom
        > Csur - a barn.
        >
        > Hope that helps
        >
        > Peter M.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > On 29 January 2013 11:47, deeellessbee wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to
        > > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
        > > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her parents Janos
        > > and Marta.
        > >
        > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes with
        > > her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image 139)?
        > > I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if there is
        > > any notation saying which is which anyway.
        > >
        > >
        > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-CZP:1513958199
        > >
        > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the
        > > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother. He is
        > > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they could
        > > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are cousins
        > > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
        > >
        > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The
        > > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a birth
        > > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in 1830,
        > > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info
        > > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not given, so how
        > > sure can I be this is my family?
        > >
        > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column entries, it
        > > would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well, and
        > > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is the
        > > pits, quite frankly.
        > >
        > > Thank you for any help!
        > > Debbie
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • deeellessbee
        Ahhh... I see. Can I ask how you knew that, Peter? Did I miss something somewhere on the form? Or (more likely) should I have read something somewhere
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 28, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Ahhh... I see. Can I ask how you knew that, Peter? Did I miss something somewhere on the form? Or (more likely) should I have read something somewhere *before* I started browsing? In hindsight, it kind of makes sense, as it is in a logical order, but how did you know?

          Thanks again!
          Debbie

          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
          >
          > Ok. image 137 right side is the house and description, 138 about the
          > inhabitants, 139 left side is the livestock etc. They had 1 cow - (tehen).
          >
          > Peter M.
          >
          > On 29 January 2013 12:53, deeellessbee wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > > Michael, thank you for that detailed answer - if it isn't already, that
          > > post (your answer) should be somewhere permanent on this site for people to
          > > refer to! I appreciate the time you took to type all that information.
          > >
          > > But my main question was, which page goes with my family? It appears to me
          > > there are two pages/images for each family. There is the page with the
          > > listing of names, and then there is the two-paged sheet with the questions
          > > regarding the livestock inventory and the housing description.
          > >
          > > My question was, how do I know which livestock inventory/housing
          > > description goes with the list of names? Is it the one before the list of
          > > names, or the one after it? I can't seem to find any indentifying info on
          > > the inventory/housing sheet that links it to the family.
          > >
          > > Thanks!
          > > Debbie
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "MGMojher" wrote:
          > > >
          > > > About 1869 Census:
          > > > Census of Residents: The leftmost two columns (0 and 1) simply represent
          > > the house number, and numbered lines for each individual recorded.
          > > > Column 2 lists the names of the people. The instructions are simply a
          > > long-winded way of saying count everyone who lives at the house.
          > > >
          > > > Column 3 specifies the sex of each person (ferfi = male and nö =
          > > female); and
          > > >
          > > > Column 4 specifies the birth year of each person.
          > > >
          > > > Column 5 gives the religion of each individual.
          > > >
          > > > Column 6 is the marital status of each individual [nös = with wife;
          > > ferjes = with husband; hajadon = maiden; nötlen = bachelor; özvégy =
          > > widow/er might also be found.]
          > > >
          > > > Column 7 lists the office(s) held.
          > > >
          > > > Column 8 identifies the type of work performed; telkes, a smallholder
          > > (ie. peasant farmer); telkes seged helper to the smallholder; háztars, a
          > > housekeeper; seged -- ie. help out on the farm/house; éves szolga, a
          > > year's servant (presumably that's the duration of being hired out) and the
          > > children in school, they would probably be listed as students (tanár) .
          > >
          > > >
          > > > Column 9 is birthplace.
          > > >
          > > > Column 10 is citizenship, helybeli (local) rather than idegen (foreign).
          > > >
          > > > Columns 11 and 12 relate to whether the persons were at home or away at
          > > the time of the census, with special instructions for those who had been
          > > away for more than a month.
          > > >
          > > > Column 13 relates to literacy -- on the left able to read, on the right
          > > able to read and write.
          > > >
          > > > Column 14 was reserved for notes (jegyzet).
          > > >
          > > > Inventory of Livestock: Horses (ló) are grouped into stallions
          > > (csödör), mares (kancza), geldings (herélt), and foals (csikó) under
          > > three years. The three categories under each of the first three groups are
          > > heavy (nehéz) and light (könnyü) species (fajta) and the total
          > > (összesen) for the group. The next two columns are for mules (öszvér)
          > > and donkeys (szamár).
          > > >
          > > > The second large grouping is for horned cattle (szarvasmaha) which are
          > > separated into Hungarian (magyar) and Swiss (svájczi) and buffalo
          > > (bivaly). The first two of these categories are divided into bulls (bika),
          > > cows (tehen), oxen (ökör), and calves (borju) under three years.
          > > >
          > > > The next two columns are for sheep (juh). They are categorized as either
          > > "select" (nemesitett) or "common" (közönséges). This farm had six common
          > > sheep. The last three columns are for goats (kecske), pigs (sertés) and
          > > finally beehives (méhkas).
          > > >
          > > > Housing Facilities: Following the identification of the town, and the
          > > form headings, is a place for the street address (utcza -- note old
          > > spelling of utca) or the house number (házszám). A street address would
          > > only be used in larger towns, small villages used house numbers.
          > > >
          > > > Does the house have? (A lakás rooms): a cellar (pinczében); a ground
          > > floor (földszint); a loft (félemeleten); how many upper stories
          > > (hányadik emeleten); an attic (padlácson).
          > > >
          > > > The house is made up of how many? sleeping room (szoba); pantry (kamra);
          > > living room (elöszoba); and kitchen (konyha).
          > > >
          > > > Next is a statement that the house is used only for living (lakásra) --
          > > ie. not for business. Then there is a question concerning additional
          > > facilities and buildings used for a business. Business-related facilities:
          > > shop or store (bolt); pantry (kamra); cellar (pinczér); implement shed
          > > (félszer szin); storehouse (raktár); stall (iztállö); sheepfold (akol);
          > > barn (csür). In all probability the women did the cooking in the shed,
          > > which explains the lack of a kitchen in the house in some houses.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > From: deeellessbee
          > > > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 4:47 PM
          > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          > > > Subject: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which
          > > family
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to
          > > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
          > > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her parents Janos
          > > and Marta.
          > > >
          > > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes
          > > with her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image
          > > 139)? I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
          > > there is any notation saying which is which anyway.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-CZP:1513958199
          > > >
          > > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the
          > > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother. He is
          > > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they could
          > > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are cousins
          > > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
          > > >
          > > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The
          > > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a birth
          > > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in 1830,
          > > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info
          > > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not given, so how
          > > sure can I be this is my family?
          > > >
          > > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column entries,
          > > it would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well, and
          > > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is the
          > > pits, quite frankly.
          > > >
          > > > Thank you for any help!
          > > > Debbie
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • MGMojher
          Debbie, Sorry the page I got the information was not set to display Slovak words properly. Here is a link that shows you the pages of the census and explains
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 28, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Debbie,
            Sorry the page I got the information was not set to display Slovak words properly.

            Here is a link that shows you the pages of the census and explains them -http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/CensusMain.htm#1869Census

            From: deeellessbee
            Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 5:53 PM
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family


            Michael, thank you for that detailed answer - if it isn't already, that post (your answer) should be somewhere permanent on this site for people to refer to! I appreciate the time you took to type all that information.

            But my main question was, which page goes with my family? It appears to me there are two pages/images for each family. There is the page with the listing of names, and then there is the two-paged sheet with the questions regarding the livestock inventory and the housing description.

            My question was, how do I know which livestock inventory/housing description goes with the list of names? Is it the one before the list of names, or the one after it? I can't seem to find any indentifying info on the inventory/housing sheet that links it to the family.

            Thanks!
            Debbie

            --- In mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com, "MGMojher" wrote:
            >
            > About 1869 Census:
            > Census of Residents: The leftmost two columns (0 and 1) simply represent the house number, and numbered lines for each individual recorded.
            > Column 2 lists the names of the people. The instructions are simply a long-winded way of saying count everyone who lives at the house.
            >
            > Column 3 specifies the sex of each person (ferfi = male and nö = female); and
            >
            > Column 4 specifies the birth year of each person.
            >
            > Column 5 gives the religion of each individual.
            >
            > Column 6 is the marital status of each individual [nös = with wife; ferjes = with husband; hajadon = maiden; nötlen = bachelor; özvégy = widow/er might also be found.]
            >
            > Column 7 lists the office(s) held.
            >
            > Column 8 identifies the type of work performed; telkes, a smallholder (ie. peasant farmer); telkes seged helper to the smallholder; háztars, a housekeeper; seged -- ie. help out on the farm/house; éves szolga, a year's servant (presumably that's the duration of being hired out) and the children in school, they would probably be listed as students (tanár) .
            >
            > Column 9 is birthplace.
            >
            > Column 10 is citizenship, helybeli (local) rather than idegen (foreign).
            >
            > Columns 11 and 12 relate to whether the persons were at home or away at the time of the census, with special instructions for those who had been away for more than a month.
            >
            > Column 13 relates to literacy -- on the left able to read, on the right able to read and write.
            >
            > Column 14 was reserved for notes (jegyzet).
            >
            > Inventory of Livestock: Horses (ló) are grouped into stallions (csödör), mares (kancza), geldings (herélt), and foals (csikó) under three years. The three categories under each of the first three groups are heavy (nehéz) and light (könnyü) species (fajta) and the total (összesen) for the group. The next two columns are for mules (öszvér) and donkeys (szamár).
            >
            > The second large grouping is for horned cattle (szarvasmaha) which are separated into Hungarian (magyar) and Swiss (svájczi) and buffalo (bivaly). The first two of these categories are divided into bulls (bika), cows (tehen), oxen (ökör), and calves (borju) under three years.
            >
            > The next two columns are for sheep (juh). They are categorized as either "select" (nemesitett) or "common" (közönséges). This farm had six common sheep. The last three columns are for goats (kecske), pigs (sertés) and finally beehives (méhkas).
            >
            > Housing Facilities: Following the identification of the town, and the form headings, is a place for the street address (utcza -- note old spelling of utca) or the house number (házszám). A street address would only be used in larger towns, small villages used house numbers.
            >
            > Does the house have? (A lakás rooms): a cellar (pinczében); a ground floor (földszint); a loft (félemeleten); how many upper stories (hányadik emeleten); an attic (padlácson).
            >
            > The house is made up of how many? sleeping room (szoba); pantry (kamra); living room (elöszoba); and kitchen (konyha).
            >
            > Next is a statement that the house is used only for living (lakásra) -- ie. not for business. Then there is a question concerning additional facilities and buildings used for a business. Business-related facilities: shop or store (bolt); pantry (kamra); cellar (pinczér); implement shed (félszer szin); storehouse (raktár); stall (iztállö); sheepfold (akol); barn (csür). In all probability the women did the cooking in the shed, which explains the lack of a kitchen in the house in some houses.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > From: deeellessbee
            > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 4:47 PM
            > To: mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family
            >
            >
            > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her parents Janos and Marta.
            >
            > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes with her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image 139)? I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if there is any notation saying which is which anyway.
            >
            > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-CZP:1513958199
            >
            > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother. He is born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they could be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are cousins instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
            >
            > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a birth year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in 1830, and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not given, so how sure can I be this is my family?
            >
            > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column entries, it would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well, and the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is the pits, quite frankly.
            >
            > Thank you for any help!
            > Debbie
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • MGMojher
            http://www.berecz.us/tutorial/miscdocs/mis2.htm This should clarify the pages for you. From: deeellessbee Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 6:42 PM To:
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 28, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              http://www.berecz.us/tutorial/miscdocs/mis2.htm This should clarify the pages for you.

              From: deeellessbee
              Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 6:42 PM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family


              Ahhh... I see. Can I ask how you knew that, Peter? Did I miss something somewhere on the form? Or (more likely) should I have read something somewhere *before* I started browsing? In hindsight, it kind of makes sense, as it is in a logical order, but how did you know?

              Thanks again!
              Debbie

              --- In mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
              >
              > Ok. image 137 right side is the house and description, 138 about the
              > inhabitants, 139 left side is the livestock etc. They had 1 cow - (tehen).
              >
              > Peter M.
              >
              > On 29 January 2013 12:53, deeellessbee wrote:
              >
              > > **
              > >
              > >
              > > Michael, thank you for that detailed answer - if it isn't already, that
              > > post (your answer) should be somewhere permanent on this site for people to
              > > refer to! I appreciate the time you took to type all that information.
              > >
              > > But my main question was, which page goes with my family? It appears to me
              > > there are two pages/images for each family. There is the page with the
              > > listing of names, and then there is the two-paged sheet with the questions
              > > regarding the livestock inventory and the housing description.
              > >
              > > My question was, how do I know which livestock inventory/housing
              > > description goes with the list of names? Is it the one before the list of
              > > names, or the one after it? I can't seem to find any indentifying info on
              > > the inventory/housing sheet that links it to the family.
              > >
              > > Thanks!
              > > Debbie
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com, "MGMojher" wrote:
              > > >
              > > > About 1869 Census:
              > > > Census of Residents: The leftmost two columns (0 and 1) simply represent
              > > the house number, and numbered lines for each individual recorded.
              > > > Column 2 lists the names of the people. The instructions are simply a
              > > long-winded way of saying count everyone who lives at the house.
              > > >
              > > > Column 3 specifies the sex of each person (ferfi = male and nö =
              > > female); and
              > > >
              > > > Column 4 specifies the birth year of each person.
              > > >
              > > > Column 5 gives the religion of each individual.
              > > >
              > > > Column 6 is the marital status of each individual [nös = with wife;
              > > ferjes = with husband; hajadon = maiden; nötlen = bachelor; özvégy =
              > > widow/er might also be found.]
              > > >
              > > > Column 7 lists the office(s) held.
              > > >
              > > > Column 8 identifies the type of work performed; telkes, a smallholder
              > > (ie. peasant farmer); telkes seged helper to the smallholder; háztars, a
              > > housekeeper; seged -- ie. help out on the farm/house; éves szolga, a
              > > year's servant (presumably that's the duration of being hired out) and the
              > > children in school, they would probably be listed as students (tanár) .
              > >
              > > >
              > > > Column 9 is birthplace.
              > > >
              > > > Column 10 is citizenship, helybeli (local) rather than idegen (foreign).
              > > >
              > > > Columns 11 and 12 relate to whether the persons were at home or away at
              > > the time of the census, with special instructions for those who had been
              > > away for more than a month.
              > > >
              > > > Column 13 relates to literacy -- on the left able to read, on the right
              > > able to read and write.
              > > >
              > > > Column 14 was reserved for notes (jegyzet).
              > > >
              > > > Inventory of Livestock: Horses (ló) are grouped into stallions
              > > (csödör), mares (kancza), geldings (herélt), and foals (csikó) under
              > > three years. The three categories under each of the first three groups are
              > > heavy (nehéz) and light (könnyü) species (fajta) and the total
              > > (összesen) for the group. The next two columns are for mules (öszvér)
              > > and donkeys (szamár).
              > > >
              > > > The second large grouping is for horned cattle (szarvasmaha) which are
              > > separated into Hungarian (magyar) and Swiss (svájczi) and buffalo
              > > (bivaly). The first two of these categories are divided into bulls (bika),
              > > cows (tehen), oxen (ökör), and calves (borju) under three years.
              > > >
              > > > The next two columns are for sheep (juh). They are categorized as either
              > > "select" (nemesitett) or "common" (közönséges). This farm had six common
              > > sheep. The last three columns are for goats (kecske), pigs (sertés) and
              > > finally beehives (méhkas).
              > > >
              > > > Housing Facilities: Following the identification of the town, and the
              > > form headings, is a place for the street address (utcza -- note old
              > > spelling of utca) or the house number (házszám). A street address would
              > > only be used in larger towns, small villages used house numbers.
              > > >
              > > > Does the house have? (A lakás rooms): a cellar (pinczében); a ground
              > > floor (földszint); a loft (félemeleten); how many upper stories
              > > (hányadik emeleten); an attic (padlácson).
              > > >
              > > > The house is made up of how many? sleeping room (szoba); pantry (kamra);
              > > living room (elöszoba); and kitchen (konyha).
              > > >
              > > > Next is a statement that the house is used only for living (lakásra) --
              > > ie. not for business. Then there is a question concerning additional
              > > facilities and buildings used for a business. Business-related facilities:
              > > shop or store (bolt); pantry (kamra); cellar (pinczér); implement shed
              > > (félszer szin); storehouse (raktár); stall (iztállö); sheepfold (akol);
              > > barn (csür). In all probability the women did the cooking in the shed,
              > > which explains the lack of a kitchen in the house in some houses.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > From: deeellessbee
              > > > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 4:47 PM
              > > > To: mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com
              > > > Subject: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which
              > > family
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to
              > > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
              > > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her parents Janos
              > > and Marta.
              > > >
              > > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes
              > > with her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image
              > > 139)? I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
              > > there is any notation saying which is which anyway.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-CZP:1513958199
              > > >
              > > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the
              > > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother. He is
              > > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they could
              > > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are cousins
              > > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
              > > >
              > > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The
              > > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a birth
              > > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in 1830,
              > > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info
              > > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not given, so how
              > > sure can I be this is my family?
              > > >
              > > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column entries,
              > > it would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well, and
              > > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is the
              > > pits, quite frankly.
              > > >
              > > > Thank you for any help!
              > > > Debbie
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • MGMojher
              http://www.berecz.us/tutorial/miscdocs/mis2.htm – If you click on “See Notes” on the right it will explain the columns. From: deeellessbee Sent: Monday,
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 28, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                http://www.berecz.us/tutorial/miscdocs/mis2.htm – If you click on “See Notes” on the right it will explain the columns.

                From: deeellessbee
                Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 5:53 PM
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family


                Michael, thank you for that detailed answer - if it isn't already, that post (your answer) should be somewhere permanent on this site for people to refer to! I appreciate the time you took to type all that information.

                But my main question was, which page goes with my family? It appears to me there are two pages/images for each family. There is the page with the listing of names, and then there is the two-paged sheet with the questions regarding the livestock inventory and the housing description.

                My question was, how do I know which livestock inventory/housing description goes with the list of names? Is it the one before the list of names, or the one after it? I can't seem to find any indentifying info on the inventory/housing sheet that links it to the family.

                Thanks!
                Debbie

                --- In mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com, "MGMojher" wrote:
                >
                > About 1869 Census:
                > Census of Residents: The leftmost two columns (0 and 1) simply represent the house number, and numbered lines for each individual recorded.
                > Column 2 lists the names of the people. The instructions are simply a long-winded way of saying count everyone who lives at the house.
                >
                > Column 3 specifies the sex of each person (ferfi = male and nö = female); and
                >
                > Column 4 specifies the birth year of each person.
                >
                > Column 5 gives the religion of each individual.
                >
                > Column 6 is the marital status of each individual [nös = with wife; ferjes = with husband; hajadon = maiden; nötlen = bachelor; özvégy = widow/er might also be found.]
                >
                > Column 7 lists the office(s) held.
                >
                > Column 8 identifies the type of work performed; telkes, a smallholder (ie. peasant farmer); telkes seged helper to the smallholder; háztars, a housekeeper; seged -- ie. help out on the farm/house; éves szolga, a year's servant (presumably that's the duration of being hired out) and the children in school, they would probably be listed as students (tanár) .
                >
                > Column 9 is birthplace.
                >
                > Column 10 is citizenship, helybeli (local) rather than idegen (foreign).
                >
                > Columns 11 and 12 relate to whether the persons were at home or away at the time of the census, with special instructions for those who had been away for more than a month.
                >
                > Column 13 relates to literacy -- on the left able to read, on the right able to read and write.
                >
                > Column 14 was reserved for notes (jegyzet).
                >
                > Inventory of Livestock: Horses (ló) are grouped into stallions (csödör), mares (kancza), geldings (herélt), and foals (csikó) under three years. The three categories under each of the first three groups are heavy (nehéz) and light (könnyü) species (fajta) and the total (összesen) for the group. The next two columns are for mules (öszvér) and donkeys (szamár).
                >
                > The second large grouping is for horned cattle (szarvasmaha) which are separated into Hungarian (magyar) and Swiss (svájczi) and buffalo (bivaly). The first two of these categories are divided into bulls (bika), cows (tehen), oxen (ökör), and calves (borju) under three years.
                >
                > The next two columns are for sheep (juh). They are categorized as either "select" (nemesitett) or "common" (közönséges). This farm had six common sheep. The last three columns are for goats (kecske), pigs (sertés) and finally beehives (méhkas).
                >
                > Housing Facilities: Following the identification of the town, and the form headings, is a place for the street address (utcza -- note old spelling of utca) or the house number (házszám). A street address would only be used in larger towns, small villages used house numbers.
                >
                > Does the house have? (A lakás rooms): a cellar (pinczében); a ground floor (földszint); a loft (félemeleten); how many upper stories (hányadik emeleten); an attic (padlácson).
                >
                > The house is made up of how many? sleeping room (szoba); pantry (kamra); living room (elöszoba); and kitchen (konyha).
                >
                > Next is a statement that the house is used only for living (lakásra) -- ie. not for business. Then there is a question concerning additional facilities and buildings used for a business. Business-related facilities: shop or store (bolt); pantry (kamra); cellar (pinczér); implement shed (félszer szin); storehouse (raktár); stall (iztállö); sheepfold (akol); barn (csür). In all probability the women did the cooking in the shed, which explains the lack of a kitchen in the house in some houses.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > From: deeellessbee
                > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 4:47 PM
                > To: mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family
                >
                >
                > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her parents Janos and Marta.
                >
                > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes with her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image 139)? I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if there is any notation saying which is which anyway.
                >
                > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-CZP:1513958199
                >
                > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother. He is born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they could be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are cousins instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
                >
                > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a birth year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in 1830, and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not given, so how sure can I be this is my family?
                >
                > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column entries, it would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well, and the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is the pits, quite frankly.
                >
                > Thank you for any help!
                > Debbie
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • deeellessbee
                Ah! Thank you Michael! That s great. I really should try to read this stuff *before* I plunge into any records. Thanks for all this information and the
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 28, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  Ah! Thank you Michael! That's great. I really should try to read this stuff *before* I plunge into any records. Thanks for all this information and the links. MOST helpful!

                  Debbie


                  --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "MGMojher" wrote:
                  >
                  > http://www.berecz.us/tutorial/miscdocs/mis2.htm â€" If you click on “See Notes” on the right it will explain the columns.
                  >
                  > From: deeellessbee
                  > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 5:53 PM
                  > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family
                  >
                  >
                  > Michael, thank you for that detailed answer - if it isn't already, that post (your answer) should be somewhere permanent on this site for people to refer to! I appreciate the time you took to type all that information.
                  >
                  > But my main question was, which page goes with my family? It appears to me there are two pages/images for each family. There is the page with the listing of names, and then there is the two-paged sheet with the questions regarding the livestock inventory and the housing description.
                  >
                  > My question was, how do I know which livestock inventory/housing description goes with the list of names? Is it the one before the list of names, or the one after it? I can't seem to find any indentifying info on the inventory/housing sheet that links it to the family.
                  >
                  > Thanks!
                  > Debbie
                  >
                  > --- In mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com, "MGMojher" wrote:
                  > >
                  > > About 1869 Census:
                  > > Census of Residents: The leftmost two columns (0 and 1) simply represent the house number, and numbered lines for each individual recorded.
                  > > Column 2 lists the names of the people. The instructions are simply a long-winded way of saying count everyone who lives at the house.
                  > >
                  > > Column 3 specifies the sex of each person (ferfi = male and nö = female); and
                  > >
                  > > Column 4 specifies the birth year of each person.
                  > >
                  > > Column 5 gives the religion of each individual.
                  > >
                  > > Column 6 is the marital status of each individual [nös = with wife; ferjes = with husband; hajadon = maiden; nötlen = bachelor; özvégy = widow/er might also be found.]
                  > >
                  > > Column 7 lists the office(s) held.
                  > >
                  > > Column 8 identifies the type of work performed; telkes, a smallholder (ie. peasant farmer); telkes seged helper to the smallholder; háztars, a housekeeper; seged -- ie. help out on the farm/house; éves szolga, a year's servant (presumably that's the duration of being hired out) and the children in school, they would probably be listed as students (tanár) .
                  > >
                  > > Column 9 is birthplace.
                  > >
                  > > Column 10 is citizenship, helybeli (local) rather than idegen (foreign).
                  > >
                  > > Columns 11 and 12 relate to whether the persons were at home or away at the time of the census, with special instructions for those who had been away for more than a month.
                  > >
                  > > Column 13 relates to literacy -- on the left able to read, on the right able to read and write.
                  > >
                  > > Column 14 was reserved for notes (jegyzet).
                  > >
                  > > Inventory of Livestock: Horses (ló) are grouped into stallions (csödör), mares (kancza), geldings (herélt), and foals (csikó) under three years. The three categories under each of the first three groups are heavy (nehéz) and light (könnyü) species (fajta) and the total (összesen) for the group. The next two columns are for mules (öszvér) and donkeys (szamár).
                  > >
                  > > The second large grouping is for horned cattle (szarvasmaha) which are separated into Hungarian (magyar) and Swiss (svájczi) and buffalo (bivaly). The first two of these categories are divided into bulls (bika), cows (tehen), oxen (ökör), and calves (borju) under three years.
                  > >
                  > > The next two columns are for sheep (juh). They are categorized as either "select" (nemesitett) or "common" (közönséges). This farm had six common sheep. The last three columns are for goats (kecske), pigs (sertés) and finally beehives (méhkas).
                  > >
                  > > Housing Facilities: Following the identification of the town, and the form headings, is a place for the street address (utcza -- note old spelling of utca) or the house number (házszám). A street address would only be used in larger towns, small villages used house numbers.
                  > >
                  > > Does the house have? (A lakás rooms): a cellar (pinczében); a ground floor (földszint); a loft (félemeleten); how many upper stories (hányadik emeleten); an attic (padlácson).
                  > >
                  > > The house is made up of how many? sleeping room (szoba); pantry (kamra); living room (elöszoba); and kitchen (konyha).
                  > >
                  > > Next is a statement that the house is used only for living (lakásra) -- ie. not for business. Then there is a question concerning additional facilities and buildings used for a business. Business-related facilities: shop or store (bolt); pantry (kamra); cellar (pinczér); implement shed (félszer szin); storehouse (raktár); stall (iztállö); sheepfold (akol); barn (csür). In all probability the women did the cooking in the shed, which explains the lack of a kitchen in the house in some houses.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > From: deeellessbee
                  > > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 4:47 PM
                  > > To: mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her parents Janos and Marta.
                  > >
                  > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes with her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image 139)? I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if there is any notation saying which is which anyway.
                  > >
                  > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-CZP:1513958199
                  > >
                  > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother. He is born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they could be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are cousins instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
                  > >
                  > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a birth year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in 1830, and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not given, so how sure can I be this is my family?
                  > >
                  > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column entries, it would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well, and the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is the pits, quite frankly.
                  > >
                  > > Thank you for any help!
                  > > Debbie
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • htcstech
                  Hi, There is every possibility that it is your family. If you have a look at the 1st and 2nd column headings, it gives evidence of 2 families in the one house.
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 28, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi,
                    There is every possibility that it is your family.
                    If you have a look at the 1st and 2nd column headings, it gives evidence of
                    2 families in the one house.
                    The first column- folyo lakas-szam - comes from the word folyo-szam or
                    'running number' but it has lakas - 'householders' in this context. So it
                    says ' a running count of the householders in the house'. I do believe that
                    it means head-of-house - and in your case, there are two of them, Janos and
                    Gyorgy.
                    Column 2 says: A Lako szemelyek folyo szama - 'the inhabitants in running
                    order'. The running order was traditional and goes Head of House or Family
                    - almost always the Father, the Wife, the eldest child to the youngest
                    child, after that, the grandchildren. This is listed in the title of column
                    3 as Csalad Feje (Head of Family or Household), Neje (wife), Gyermeke
                    (Children), Unokai (Grandchildren).
                    So there are 2 entries in column 1 and the name entries in column 2 showing
                    the respective number of spouses and children for each head of family.
                    Gyorgy was a widower, so no wife, but the children are listed as per the
                    running order of each head.
                    The totals at the bottom under the double lines show exactly the numbers -
                    2 families, 7 inhabitants in total comprised of 3 males and 4 females.

                    As for your other question about the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos,
                    this archive won't give you that. However common knowledge says that if a
                    house is shared, it is always with a relative. Life was hard and in the
                    case of an ozvegy, he would be looking for another wife and/or in the
                    meantime living with a relative, helping out on the farm and his children
                    being looked after by Janos's wife.
                    This sort of thing happens even today, but in particular, my Grandfather
                    and wife lived with his father-in-law till 1942. My great aunt lives with
                    her daughter's family to this day after her husband died. Sometimes the
                    passage of time doesn't change much!
                    In your case though, I would try and decode the GK records for 1825 and
                    find out the relationships between Gyorgy and Janos.

                    Peter M.

                    On 29 January 2013 13:39, deeellessbee <deeellessbee@...> wrote:

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    > Peter thanks for that help. Thanks especially for the "has a lot/parcel of
                    > land" - my translation only said "lot" and while I figured it meant he had
                    > some land, I wasn't quite sure. And I couldn't figure out the handwriting
                    > on the foldumoves - nothing was working in google translate for that one!
                    > Thanks! What do you think the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos is?
                    >
                    > After my original post, I looked again and realized that the notation for
                    > Marta Jr. does not look like "leany" which seems to be the regular notation
                    > for daughter/girl. I'm still trying to decide if the word after her name is
                    > something different or if the enumerator just got lazy. I do hope Marta is
                    > the daughter of Janos or this may not be my family.
                    >
                    > Thanks!
                    > Debbie
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I would say that Gyorgy was the father of Maria and Mihaly - he was
                    > Ozvegy
                    > > - or a widower, working on the land.
                    > > All are local. Only Marta can read/write, all the rest can't.
                    > > Here is the rest as I see it:
                    > > Janos is hazas - 'married' 6th numbered column; telkes - has a lot
                    > (parcel
                    > > of land); foldmuves (foldmuveles) - 'tiller of the soil'; vagas Mikilos -
                    > > is the name of the village I presume, though in reverse order of the
                    > title
                    > > page.
                    > > Marta is the wife - 'neje' - and ferjes - 'has a husband'
                    > > Anna - leany 'young woman' - hajadon - unmarried
                    > > Marta - (can't read the note but I presume it means girl) -
                    > > Gyorgy - as above
                    > > Maria - leany - hajadon
                    > > Mihaly - fia - his (Gyorgy's boy)
                    > >
                    > > All seem to work the land as there is no other distinction made for
                    > > employment.
                    > >
                    > > The previous page describes the home:
                    > > They lived in number 68
                    > > Foldszint - single storey
                    > > Szoba - 1 room
                    > > Kamra - A pantry
                    > > Eloszoba - a hall or vestibule - commonly a sunroom.
                    > > Raktar - a storeroom
                    > > Csur - a barn.
                    > >
                    > > Hope that helps
                    > >
                    > > Peter M.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > On 29 January 2013 11:47, deeellessbee wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > **
                    >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to
                    > > > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
                    > > > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her parents
                    > Janos
                    > > > and Marta.
                    > > >
                    > > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes
                    > with
                    > > > her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image
                    > 139)?
                    > > > I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
                    > there is
                    > > > any notation saying which is which anyway.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-CZP:1513958199
                    > > >
                    > > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the
                    > > > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother.
                    > He is
                    > > > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they
                    > could
                    > > > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are
                    > cousins
                    > > > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
                    > > >
                    > > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The
                    > > > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a
                    > birth
                    > > > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in
                    > 1830,
                    > > > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info
                    > > > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not given,
                    > so how
                    > > > sure can I be this is my family?
                    > > >
                    > > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column
                    > entries, it
                    > > > would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well,
                    > and
                    > > > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is
                    > the
                    > > > pits, quite frankly.
                    > > >
                    > > > Thank you for any help!
                    > > > Debbie
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • deeellessbee
                    Peter, thanks for your thoughts and info. I saw that Gyorgy was a widower with two kids, and I figured he was a relative of some kind, sharing the house with
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 29, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Peter, thanks for your thoughts and info. I saw that Gyorgy was a widower with two kids, and I figured he was a relative of some kind, sharing the house with Janos. It's just that birth date that's throwing me off. My first thought (before realizing they have the same birth year) was that they were brothers. Then I thought, well, what are the chances of twins (certainly possilbe, but probable?) So, maybe it's a cousin... but would cousins share a house? Again possible... is it more probable that they were twins or that cousins were sharing a house? Personally, I don't know. And then there's always the issue of how accurate the birthdates are to begin with.

                      So, there are things to ponder there, certainly. Unfortunately, I have no idea what Janos's parents names were. I'd have to double-check my notes, but I think I did find a few options for him for a birth record, but again, not knowing his parents' names, and the Guman name being not-uncommon, I have no conclusive answer yet. I suppose I could go back and see if any of those parents in the possible records for Janos, also have a son Gyorgy, but again, with a fairly common last name and two common first names, how can I be sure...? I do believe that I did not come across twins, however, but maybe that's something to keep an eye out for.

                      So, with all this to think about, why is my first thought to browse through the other families and see if my family owning (only) one cow a good thing or a bad thing, lol?

                      :)
                      Debbie

                      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi,
                      > There is every possibility that it is your family.
                      > If you have a look at the 1st and 2nd column headings, it gives evidence of
                      > 2 families in the one house.
                      > The first column- folyo lakas-szam - comes from the word folyo-szam or
                      > 'running number' but it has lakas - 'householders' in this context. So it
                      > says ' a running count of the householders in the house'. I do believe that
                      > it means head-of-house - and in your case, there are two of them, Janos and
                      > Gyorgy.
                      > Column 2 says: A Lako szemelyek folyo szama - 'the inhabitants in running
                      > order'. The running order was traditional and goes Head of House or Family
                      > - almost always the Father, the Wife, the eldest child to the youngest
                      > child, after that, the grandchildren. This is listed in the title of column
                      > 3 as Csalad Feje (Head of Family or Household), Neje (wife), Gyermeke
                      > (Children), Unokai (Grandchildren).
                      > So there are 2 entries in column 1 and the name entries in column 2 showing
                      > the respective number of spouses and children for each head of family.
                      > Gyorgy was a widower, so no wife, but the children are listed as per the
                      > running order of each head.
                      > The totals at the bottom under the double lines show exactly the numbers -
                      > 2 families, 7 inhabitants in total comprised of 3 males and 4 females.
                      >
                      > As for your other question about the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos,
                      > this archive won't give you that. However common knowledge says that if a
                      > house is shared, it is always with a relative. Life was hard and in the
                      > case of an ozvegy, he would be looking for another wife and/or in the
                      > meantime living with a relative, helping out on the farm and his children
                      > being looked after by Janos's wife.
                      > This sort of thing happens even today, but in particular, my Grandfather
                      > and wife lived with his father-in-law till 1942. My great aunt lives with
                      > her daughter's family to this day after her husband died. Sometimes the
                      > passage of time doesn't change much!
                      > In your case though, I would try and decode the GK records for 1825 and
                      > find out the relationships between Gyorgy and Janos.
                      >
                      > Peter M.
                      >
                      > On 29 January 2013 13:39, deeellessbee wrote:
                      >
                      > > **
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Peter thanks for that help. Thanks especially for the "has a lot/parcel of
                      > > land" - my translation only said "lot" and while I figured it meant he had
                      > > some land, I wasn't quite sure. And I couldn't figure out the handwriting
                      > > on the foldumoves - nothing was working in google translate for that one!
                      > > Thanks! What do you think the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos is?
                      > >
                      > > After my original post, I looked again and realized that the notation for
                      > > Marta Jr. does not look like "leany" which seems to be the regular notation
                      > > for daughter/girl. I'm still trying to decide if the word after her name is
                      > > something different or if the enumerator just got lazy. I do hope Marta is
                      > > the daughter of Janos or this may not be my family.
                      > >
                      > > Thanks!
                      > > Debbie
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I would say that Gyorgy was the father of Maria and Mihaly - he was
                      > > Ozvegy
                      > > > - or a widower, working on the land.
                      > > > All are local. Only Marta can read/write, all the rest can't.
                      > > > Here is the rest as I see it:
                      > > > Janos is hazas - 'married' 6th numbered column; telkes - has a lot
                      > > (parcel
                      > > > of land); foldmuves (foldmuveles) - 'tiller of the soil'; vagas Mikilos -
                      > > > is the name of the village I presume, though in reverse order of the
                      > > title
                      > > > page.
                      > > > Marta is the wife - 'neje' - and ferjes - 'has a husband'
                      > > > Anna - leany 'young woman' - hajadon - unmarried
                      > > > Marta - (can't read the note but I presume it means girl) -
                      > > > Gyorgy - as above
                      > > > Maria - leany - hajadon
                      > > > Mihaly - fia - his (Gyorgy's boy)
                      > > >
                      > > > All seem to work the land as there is no other distinction made for
                      > > > employment.
                      > > >
                      > > > The previous page describes the home:
                      > > > They lived in number 68
                      > > > Foldszint - single storey
                      > > > Szoba - 1 room
                      > > > Kamra - A pantry
                      > > > Eloszoba - a hall or vestibule - commonly a sunroom.
                      > > > Raktar - a storeroom
                      > > > Csur - a barn.
                      > > >
                      > > > Hope that helps
                      > > >
                      > > > Peter M.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > On 29 January 2013 11:47, deeellessbee wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > > **
                      > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to
                      > > > > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
                      > > > > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her parents
                      > > Janos
                      > > > > and Marta.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes
                      > > with
                      > > > > her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image
                      > > 139)?
                      > > > > I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
                      > > there is
                      > > > > any notation saying which is which anyway.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-CZP:1513958199
                      > > > >
                      > > > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the
                      > > > > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother.
                      > > He is
                      > > > > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they
                      > > could
                      > > > > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are
                      > > cousins
                      > > > > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The
                      > > > > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a
                      > > birth
                      > > > > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in
                      > > 1830,
                      > > > > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info
                      > > > > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not given,
                      > > so how
                      > > > > sure can I be this is my family?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column
                      > > entries, it
                      > > > > would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well,
                      > > and
                      > > > > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is
                      > > the
                      > > > > pits, quite frankly.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Thank you for any help!
                      > > > > Debbie
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • lrrykck
                      Hi Debbie    The 1869 census is a goldmine of data for how our ancestors lived. I think your problem is in using it to put the family together.  Maybe it
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 29, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Debbie

                           The 1869 census is a goldmine of data for how our ancestors lived. I think your problem is in using it to put the family together.

                         Maybe it would be easier to build the family [including cousins] from birth/bapt and marriage records first.

                            For the two men in question you could search through all records for the time period...give and take a few years ei ther way. You can record all the right surnames for that time period and then use house numbers and godparents to help you get an idea of relationships. Also with marriage records you'll have maiden names and witnesses....a lot of times marriage witnesses will be godparents to the couple's subsequant children or godparent to the person being married...but it all helps to build families.

                            It's time consuming but when you have all that data from the time period you'll be able to get a good picture of the different families..You should be able to start seeing connections and relationships.

                         Then the 1869 census will help confirm and enhance what you found in the birth and marriage records.

                         This is my personal method, but like I said, it's time consuming and maybe someone else has a more effcient method.



                         My great grandfather's family shared a house with his cousin's family. I had the same problem as you;...two heads of household with same surname and  given names...and birth dates that were only a few years apart. They ended up as cousins.

                         Using only the data from the 1869 census you can only make assumptions.



                        Good luck Debbie...

                        Larry

                        interesting sidenote;  why are livestock broken down into sub catagories...i.e. milk cows as opposed to meat cows? was it because they were taxed at different rates?

                         

                          



                        ----- Original Message -----


                        From: "deeellessbee" <deeellessbee@...>
                        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 11:47:47 AM
                        Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family

                        Peter, thanks for your thoughts and info.  I saw that Gyorgy was a widower with two kids, and I figured he was a relative of some kind, sharing the house with Janos.  It's just that birth date that's throwing me off.  My first thought (before realizing they have the same birth year) was that they were brothers.  Then I thought, well, what are the chances of twins (certainly possilbe, but probable?)  So, maybe it's a cousin... but would cousins share a house?  Again possible... is it more probable that they were twins or that cousins were sharing a house?  Personally, I don't know.  And then there's always the issue of how accurate the birthdates are to begin with.

                        So, there are things to ponder there, certainly.  Unfortunately, I have no idea what Janos's parents names were.  I'd have to double-check my notes, but I think I did find a few options for him for a birth record, but again, not knowing his parents' names, and the Guman name being not-uncommon, I have no conclusive answer yet.  I suppose I could go back and see if any of those parents in the possible records for Janos, also have a son Gyorgy, but again, with a fairly common last name and two common first names, how can I be sure...?  I do believe that I did not come across twins, however, but maybe that's something to keep an eye out for.

                        So, with all this to think about, why is my first thought to browse through the other families and see if my family owning (only) one cow a good thing or a bad thing, lol?

                        :)
                        Debbie

                        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech  wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi,
                        > There is every possibility that it is your family.
                        > If you have a look at the 1st and 2nd column headings, it gives evidence of
                        > 2 families in the one house.
                        > The first column- folyo lakas-szam - comes from the word folyo-szam or
                        > 'running number' but it has lakas - 'householders' in this context. So it
                        > says ' a running count of the householders in the house'. I do believe that
                        > it means head-of-house - and in your case, there are two of them, Janos and
                        > Gyorgy.
                        > Column 2 says: A Lako szemelyek folyo szama - 'the inhabitants in running
                        > order'. The running order was traditional and goes Head of House or Family
                        > - almost always the Father, the Wife, the eldest child to the youngest
                        > child, after that, the grandchildren. This is listed in the title of column
                        > 3 as Csalad Feje (Head of Family or Household), Neje (wife), Gyermeke
                        > (Children), Unokai (Grandchildren).
                        > So there are 2 entries in column 1 and the name entries in column 2 showing
                        > the respective number of spouses and children for each head of family.
                        > Gyorgy was a widower, so no wife, but the children are listed as per the
                        > running order of each head.
                        > The totals at the bottom under the double lines show exactly the numbers -
                        > 2 families, 7 inhabitants in total comprised of 3 males and 4 females.
                        >
                        > As for your other question about the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos,
                        > this archive won't give you that. However common knowledge says that if a
                        > house is shared, it is always with a relative. Life was hard and in the
                        > case of an ozvegy, he would be looking for another wife and/or in the
                        > meantime living with a relative, helping out on the farm and his children
                        > being looked after by Janos's wife.
                        > This sort of thing happens even today, but in particular, my Grandfather
                        > and wife lived with his father-in-law till 1942. My great aunt lives with
                        > her daughter's family to this day after her husband died. Sometimes the
                        > passage of time doesn't change much!
                        > In your case though, I would try and decode the GK records for 1825 and
                        > find out the relationships between Gyorgy and Janos.
                        >
                        > Peter M.
                        >
                        > On 29 January 2013 13:39, deeellessbee  wrote:
                        >
                        > > **
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Peter thanks for that help. Thanks especially for the "has a lot/parcel of
                        > > land" - my translation only said "lot" and while I figured it meant he had
                        > > some land, I wasn't quite sure. And I couldn't figure out the handwriting
                        > > on the foldumoves - nothing was working in google translate for that one!
                        > > Thanks! What do you think the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos is?
                        > >
                        > > After my original post, I looked again and realized that the notation for
                        > > Marta Jr. does not look like "leany" which seems to be the regular notation
                        > > for daughter/girl. I'm still trying to decide if the word after her name is
                        > > something different or if the enumerator just got lazy. I do hope Marta is
                        > > the daughter of Janos or this may not be my family.
                        > >
                        > > Thanks!
                        > > Debbie
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > I would say that Gyorgy was the father of Maria and Mihaly - he was
                        > > Ozvegy
                        > > > - or a widower, working on the land.
                        > > > All are local. Only Marta can read/write, all the rest can't.
                        > > > Here is the rest as I see it:
                        > > > Janos is hazas - 'married' 6th numbered column; telkes - has a lot
                        > > (parcel
                        > > > of land); foldmuves (foldmuveles) - 'tiller of the soil'; vagas Mikilos -
                        > > > is the name of the village I presume, though in reverse order of the
                        > > title
                        > > > page.
                        > > > Marta is the wife - 'neje' - and ferjes - 'has a husband'
                        > > > Anna - leany 'young woman' - hajadon - unmarried
                        > > > Marta - (can't read the note but I presume it means girl) -
                        > > > Gyorgy - as above
                        > > > Maria - leany - hajadon
                        > > > Mihaly - fia - his (Gyorgy's boy)
                        > > >
                        > > > All seem to work the land as there is no other distinction made for
                        > > > employment.
                        > > >
                        > > > The previous page describes the home:
                        > > > They lived in number 68
                        > > > Foldszint - single storey
                        > > > Szoba - 1 room
                        > > > Kamra - A pantry
                        > > > Eloszoba - a hall or vestibule - commonly a sunroom.
                        > > > Raktar - a storeroom
                        > > > Csur - a barn.
                        > > >
                        > > > Hope that helps
                        > > >
                        > > > Peter M.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > On 29 January 2013 11:47, deeellessbee wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > > **
                        > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to
                        > > > > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
                        > > > > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her parents
                        > > Janos
                        > > > > and Marta.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes
                        > > with
                        > > > > her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image
                        > > 139)?
                        > > > > I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
                        > > there is
                        > > > > any notation saying which is which anyway.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-CZP:1513958199
                        > > > >
                        > > > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the
                        > > > > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother.
                        > > He is
                        > > > > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they
                        > > could
                        > > > > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are
                        > > cousins
                        > > > > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The
                        > > > > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a
                        > > birth
                        > > > > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in
                        > > 1830,
                        > > > > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info
                        > > > > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not given,
                        > > so how
                        > > > > sure can I be this is my family?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column
                        > > entries, it
                        > > > > would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well,
                        > > and
                        > > > > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is
                        > > the
                        > > > > pits, quite frankly.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Thank you for any help!
                        > > > > Debbie
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >  
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • deeellessbee
                        Larry, you are completely right, and this is really what I need to do... again! I have combed through the records, and as I mentioned, I have found a few
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 29, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Larry, you are completely right, and this is really what I need to do... again! I have combed through the records, and as I mentioned, I have found a few options for Janos' possible birth record, but just can't be sure. Let me take it back a step. I got Janos & Marta's names from Martha's death certificate (from PA). I have not found a birth/baptism record for Martha. The records go UP to 1856, then SKIP to 1861 and forward. The death record gives her birthdate as 1862. There is no birth record for her that I can find, so I am guessing she was born in that missing time period, most likely 1860 - 1861.

                          So no birth record means no confirmation of parents's names. I have found a marriage record for what may be my Janos and Marta in 1844, so the year of marriage could be appropriate, if Martha were one of their later children. Unfortunately, the marriage record gives no ages for the bride and groom, and no parents' names for either. So I am really going here on assumptions.

                          With the addition of Gyorgy to the mix, I can go back and check all the records again, using the few baptism options I had for Janos, and see if any of those parents on the baptism records had a son Gyorgy (again, assuming Gyorgy was Janos's brother.) Of course, Janos could very well have a brother Gyorgy but this Gyorgy in the census is not necessarily him! Okay, I'm getting ahead of myself...

                          Thanks for the reminder to keep an eye on house numbers. I do make note of godparents, but I don't always remember the house numbers. I guess it's time to revisit the church records!

                          Thanks for your thoughts and thanks to everyone for being patient while I "think out loud" here!

                          Debbie

                          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, lkocik@... wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi Debbie
                          >
                          >    The 1869 census is a goldmine of data for how our ancestors lived. I think your problem is in using it to put the family together.
                          >
                          >  Maybe it would be easier to build the family [including cousins] from birth/bapt and marriage records first.
                          >
                          >     For the two men in question you could search through all records for the time period...give and take a few years ei ther way. You can record all the right surnames for that time period and then use house numbers and godparents to help you get an idea of relationships. Also with marriage records you'll have maiden names and witnesses....a lot of times marriage witnesses will be godparents to the couple's subsequant children or godparent to the person being married...but it all helps to build families.
                          >
                          >     It's time consuming but when you have all that data from the time period you'll be able to get a good picture of the different families..You should be able to start seeing connections and relationships.
                          >
                          >  Then the 1869 census will help confirm and enhance what you found in the birth and marriage records.
                          >
                          >  This is my personal method, but like I said, it's time consuming and maybe someone else has a more effcient method.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >  My great grandfather's family shared a house with his cousin's family. I had the same problem as you;...two heads of household with same surname and  given names...and birth dates that were only a few years apart. They ended up as cousins.
                          >
                          >  Using only the data from the 1869 census you can only make assumptions.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Good luck Debbie...
                          >
                          > Larry
                          >
                          > interesting sidenote;  why are livestock broken down into sub catagories...i.e. milk cows as opposed to meat cows? was it because they were taxed at different rates?
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >   
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          >
                          >
                          > From: "deeellessbee"
                          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 11:47:47 AM
                          > Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family
                          >
                          > Peter, thanks for your thoughts and info.  I saw that Gyorgy was a widower with two kids, and I figured he was a relative of some kind, sharing the house with Janos.  It's just that birth date that's throwing me off.  My first thought (before realizing they have the same birth year) was that they were brothers.  Then I thought, well, what are the chances of twins (certainly possilbe, but probable?)  So, maybe it's a cousin... but would cousins share a house?  Again possible... is it more probable that they were twins or that cousins were sharing a house?  Personally, I don't know.  And then there's always the issue of how accurate the birthdates are to begin with.
                          >
                          > So, there are things to ponder there, certainly.  Unfortunately, I have no idea what Janos's parents names were.  I'd have to double-check my notes, but I think I did find a few options for him for a birth record, but again, not knowing his parents' names, and the Guman name being not-uncommon, I have no conclusive answer yet.  I suppose I could go back and see if any of those parents in the possible records for Janos, also have a son Gyorgy, but again, with a fairly common last name and two common first names, how can I be sure...?  I do believe that I did not come across twins, however, but maybe that's something to keep an eye out for.
                          >
                          > So, with all this to think about, why is my first thought to browse through the other families and see if my family owning (only) one cow a good thing or a bad thing, lol?
                          >
                          > :)
                          > Debbie
                          >
                          > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech  wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi,
                          > > There is every possibility that it is your family.
                          > > If you have a look at the 1st and 2nd column headings, it gives evidence of
                          > > 2 families in the one house.
                          > > The first column- folyo lakas-szam - comes from the word folyo-szam or
                          > > 'running number' but it has lakas - 'householders' in this context. So it
                          > > says ' a running count of the householders in the house'. I do believe that
                          > > it means head-of-house - and in your case, there are two of them, Janos and
                          > > Gyorgy.
                          > > Column 2 says: A Lako szemelyek folyo szama - 'the inhabitants in running
                          > > order'. The running order was traditional and goes Head of House or Family
                          > > - almost always the Father, the Wife, the eldest child to the youngest
                          > > child, after that, the grandchildren. This is listed in the title of column
                          > > 3 as Csalad Feje (Head of Family or Household), Neje (wife), Gyermeke
                          > > (Children), Unokai (Grandchildren).
                          > > So there are 2 entries in column 1 and the name entries in column 2 showing
                          > > the respective number of spouses and children for each head of family.
                          > > Gyorgy was a widower, so no wife, but the children are listed as per the
                          > > running order of each head.
                          > > The totals at the bottom under the double lines show exactly the numbers -
                          > > 2 families, 7 inhabitants in total comprised of 3 males and 4 females.
                          > >
                          > > As for your other question about the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos,
                          > > this archive won't give you that. However common knowledge says that if a
                          > > house is shared, it is always with a relative. Life was hard and in the
                          > > case of an ozvegy, he would be looking for another wife and/or in the
                          > > meantime living with a relative, helping out on the farm and his children
                          > > being looked after by Janos's wife.
                          > > This sort of thing happens even today, but in particular, my Grandfather
                          > > and wife lived with his father-in-law till 1942. My great aunt lives with
                          > > her daughter's family to this day after her husband died. Sometimes the
                          > > passage of time doesn't change much!
                          > > In your case though, I would try and decode the GK records for 1825 and
                          > > find out the relationships between Gyorgy and Janos.
                          > >
                          > > Peter M.
                          > >
                          > > On 29 January 2013 13:39, deeellessbee  wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > **
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Peter thanks for that help. Thanks especially for the "has a lot/parcel of
                          > > > land" - my translation only said "lot" and while I figured it meant he had
                          > > > some land, I wasn't quite sure. And I couldn't figure out the handwriting
                          > > > on the foldumoves - nothing was working in google translate for that one!
                          > > > Thanks! What do you think the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos is?
                          > > >
                          > > > After my original post, I looked again and realized that the notation for
                          > > > Marta Jr. does not look like "leany" which seems to be the regular notation
                          > > > for daughter/girl. I'm still trying to decide if the word after her name is
                          > > > something different or if the enumerator just got lazy. I do hope Marta is
                          > > > the daughter of Janos or this may not be my family.
                          > > >
                          > > > Thanks!
                          > > > Debbie
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I would say that Gyorgy was the father of Maria and Mihaly - he was
                          > > > Ozvegy
                          > > > > - or a widower, working on the land.
                          > > > > All are local. Only Marta can read/write, all the rest can't.
                          > > > > Here is the rest as I see it:
                          > > > > Janos is hazas - 'married' 6th numbered column; telkes - has a lot
                          > > > (parcel
                          > > > > of land); foldmuves (foldmuveles) - 'tiller of the soil'; vagas Mikilos -
                          > > > > is the name of the village I presume, though in reverse order of the
                          > > > title
                          > > > > page.
                          > > > > Marta is the wife - 'neje' - and ferjes - 'has a husband'
                          > > > > Anna - leany 'young woman' - hajadon - unmarried
                          > > > > Marta - (can't read the note but I presume it means girl) -
                          > > > > Gyorgy - as above
                          > > > > Maria - leany - hajadon
                          > > > > Mihaly - fia - his (Gyorgy's boy)
                          > > > >
                          > > > > All seem to work the land as there is no other distinction made for
                          > > > > employment.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The previous page describes the home:
                          > > > > They lived in number 68
                          > > > > Foldszint - single storey
                          > > > > Szoba - 1 room
                          > > > > Kamra - A pantry
                          > > > > Eloszoba - a hall or vestibule - commonly a sunroom.
                          > > > > Raktar - a storeroom
                          > > > > Csur - a barn.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Hope that helps
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Peter M.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > On 29 January 2013 11:47, deeellessbee wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > > **
                          > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to
                          > > > > > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
                          > > > > > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her parents
                          > > > Janos
                          > > > > > and Marta.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes
                          > > > with
                          > > > > > her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image
                          > > > 139)?
                          > > > > > I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
                          > > > there is
                          > > > > > any notation saying which is which anyway.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-CZP:1513958199
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the
                          > > > > > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother.
                          > > > He is
                          > > > > > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they
                          > > > could
                          > > > > > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are
                          > > > cousins
                          > > > > > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The
                          > > > > > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a
                          > > > birth
                          > > > > > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in
                          > > > 1830,
                          > > > > > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info
                          > > > > > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not given,
                          > > > so how
                          > > > > > sure can I be this is my family?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column
                          > > > entries, it
                          > > > > > would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well,
                          > > > and
                          > > > > > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is
                          > > > the
                          > > > > > pits, quite frankly.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Thank you for any help!
                          > > > > > Debbie
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >  
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • htcstech
                          Hi Larry, The classification of bulls, cows, oxen and borju - calves into Hungarian or Swiss was important to the economy. I got most of this info from bits
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 29, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Larry,

                            The classification of bulls, cows, oxen and 'borju' - calves into Hungarian
                            or Swiss was important to the economy. I got most of this info from bits
                            and pieces during wider research in genealogy and so generally not set in
                            stone.

                            The beef trade between all of old Hungary and Europe from about 1560
                            onwards became increasingly important. It was one aspect that both the
                            Turks and the Hungarians saw eye to eye on and became a mutual endeavour.
                            The Swiss (Svajczi) cows were prized for their milk in quality and
                            quantity. They were not used as work animals.
                            The Magyar cows and calves (veal - up to 3 years of age) were generally
                            meat animals. Magyar cows are brown and have prominent Y shaped long
                            straight horns and are easy to identify.
                            Selected bulls of both breeds were kept as studs. The younger bull calves
                            were kept as steers and for veal.
                            So it was important to know if a farm had a Swiss or Magyar bull.
                            I read that at the height of the beef trade, over 100,000 animals/year were
                            sent to Europe under the auspices of the Turks and Royal/Transylvanian
                            Hungarians. It certainly gave me a different perspective about the
                            importance of the plains of Pannonia and why so many wanted to control it
                            through political, religious and economic measures.

                            Peter M.

                            On 30 January 2013 07:03, <lkocik@...> wrote:

                            > **
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Hi Debbie
                            >
                            > The 1869 census is a goldmine of data for how our ancestors lived. I
                            > think your problem is in using it to put the family together.
                            >
                            > Maybe it would be easier to build the family [including cousins] from
                            > birth/bapt and marriage records first.
                            >
                            > For the two men in question you could search through all records for
                            > the time period...give and take a few years ei ther way. You can record all
                            > the right surnames for that time period and then use house numbers and
                            > godparents to help you get an idea of relationships. Also with marriage
                            > records you'll have maiden names and witnesses....a lot of times marriage
                            > witnesses will be godparents to the couple's subsequant children or
                            > godparent to the person being married...but it all helps to build families.
                            >
                            > It's time consuming but when you have all that data from the time
                            > period you'll be able to get a good picture of the different families..You
                            > should be able to start seeing connections and relationships.
                            >
                            > Then the 1869 census will help confirm and enhance what you found in the
                            > birth and marriage records.
                            >
                            > This is my personal method, but like I said, it's time consuming and
                            > maybe someone else has a more effcient method.
                            >
                            > My great grandfather's family shared a house with his cousin's family. I
                            > had the same problem as you;...two heads of household with same surname and
                            > given names...and birth dates that were only a few years apart. They ended
                            > up as cousins.
                            >
                            > Using only the data from the 1869 census you can only make assumptions.
                            >
                            > Good luck Debbie...
                            >
                            > Larry
                            >
                            > interesting sidenote; why are livestock broken down into sub
                            > catagories...i.e. milk cows as opposed to meat cows? was it because they
                            > were taxed at different rates?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            >
                            > From: "deeellessbee" deeellessbee@...>
                            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 11:47:47 AM
                            > Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which
                            > family
                            >
                            > Peter, thanks for your thoughts and info. I saw that Gyorgy was a widower
                            > with two kids, and I figured he was a relative of some kind, sharing the
                            > house with Janos. It's just that birth date that's throwing me off. My
                            > first thought (before realizing they have the same birth year) was that
                            > they were brothers. Then I thought, well, what are the chances of twins
                            > (certainly possilbe, but probable?) So, maybe it's a cousin... but would
                            > cousins share a house? Again possible... is it more probable that they
                            > were twins or that cousins were sharing a house? Personally, I don't know.
                            > And then there's always the issue of how accurate the birthdates are to
                            > begin with.
                            >
                            > So, there are things to ponder there, certainly. Unfortunately, I have no
                            > idea what Janos's parents names were. I'd have to double-check my notes,
                            > but I think I did find a few options for him for a birth record, but again,
                            > not knowing his parents' names, and the Guman name being not-uncommon, I
                            > have no conclusive answer yet. I suppose I could go back and see if any of
                            > those parents in the possible records for Janos, also have a son Gyorgy,
                            > but again, with a fairly common last name and two common first names, how
                            > can I be sure...? I do believe that I did not come across twins, however,
                            > but maybe that's something to keep an eye out for.
                            >
                            > So, with all this to think about, why is my first thought to browse
                            > through the other families and see if my family owning (only) one cow a
                            > good thing or a bad thing, lol?
                            >
                            > :)
                            > Debbie
                            >
                            > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi,
                            > > There is every possibility that it is your family.
                            > > If you have a look at the 1st and 2nd column headings, it gives evidence
                            > of
                            > > 2 families in the one house.
                            > > The first column- folyo lakas-szam - comes from the word folyo-szam or
                            > > 'running number' but it has lakas - 'householders' in this context. So
                            > it
                            > > says ' a running count of the householders in the house'. I do believe
                            > that
                            > > it means head-of-house - and in your case, there are two of them, Janos
                            > and
                            > > Gyorgy.
                            > > Column 2 says: A Lako szemelyek folyo szama - 'the inhabitants in
                            > running
                            > > order'. The running order was traditional and goes Head of House or
                            > Family
                            > > - almost always the Father, the Wife, the eldest child to the youngest
                            > > child, after that, the grandchildren. This is listed in the title of
                            > column
                            > > 3 as Csalad Feje (Head of Family or Household), Neje (wife), Gyermeke
                            > > (Children), Unokai (Grandchildren).
                            > > So there are 2 entries in column 1 and the name entries in column 2
                            > showing
                            > > the respective number of spouses and children for each head of family.
                            > > Gyorgy was a widower, so no wife, but the children are listed as per the
                            > > running order of each head.
                            > > The totals at the bottom under the double lines show exactly the numbers
                            > -
                            > > 2 families, 7 inhabitants in total comprised of 3 males and 4 females.
                            > >
                            > > As for your other question about the relationship between Gyorgy and
                            > Janos,
                            > > this archive won't give you that. However common knowledge says that if
                            > a
                            > > house is shared, it is always with a relative. Life was hard and in the
                            > > case of an ozvegy, he would be looking for another wife and/or in the
                            > > meantime living with a relative, helping out on the farm and his
                            > children
                            > > being looked after by Janos's wife.
                            > > This sort of thing happens even today, but in particular, my Grandfather
                            > > and wife lived with his father-in-law till 1942. My great aunt lives
                            > with
                            > > her daughter's family to this day after her husband died. Sometimes the
                            > > passage of time doesn't change much!
                            > > In your case though, I would try and decode the GK records for 1825 and
                            > > find out the relationships between Gyorgy and Janos.
                            > >
                            > > Peter M.
                            > >
                            > > On 29 January 2013 13:39, deeellessbee wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > **
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Peter thanks for that help. Thanks especially for the "has a
                            > lot/parcel of
                            > > > land" - my translation only said "lot" and while I figured it meant he
                            > had
                            > > > some land, I wasn't quite sure. And I couldn't figure out the
                            > handwriting
                            > > > on the foldumoves - nothing was working in google translate for that
                            > one!
                            > > > Thanks! What do you think the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos
                            > is?
                            > > >
                            > > > After my original post, I looked again and realized that the notation
                            > for
                            > > > Marta Jr. does not look like "leany" which seems to be the regular
                            > notation
                            > > > for daughter/girl. I'm still trying to decide if the word after her
                            > name is
                            > > > something different or if the enumerator just got lazy. I do hope
                            > Marta is
                            > > > the daughter of Janos or this may not be my family.
                            > > >
                            > > > Thanks!
                            > > > Debbie
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I would say that Gyorgy was the father of Maria and Mihaly - he was
                            > > > Ozvegy
                            > > > > - or a widower, working on the land.
                            > > > > All are local. Only Marta can read/write, all the rest can't.
                            > > > > Here is the rest as I see it:
                            > > > > Janos is hazas - 'married' 6th numbered column; telkes - has a lot
                            > > > (parcel
                            > > > > of land); foldmuves (foldmuveles) - 'tiller of the soil'; vagas
                            > Mikilos -
                            > > > > is the name of the village I presume, though in reverse order of the
                            > > > title
                            > > > > page.
                            > > > > Marta is the wife - 'neje' - and ferjes - 'has a husband'
                            > > > > Anna - leany 'young woman' - hajadon - unmarried
                            > > > > Marta - (can't read the note but I presume it means girl) -
                            > > > > Gyorgy - as above
                            > > > > Maria - leany - hajadon
                            > > > > Mihaly - fia - his (Gyorgy's boy)
                            > > > >
                            > > > > All seem to work the land as there is no other distinction made for
                            > > > > employment.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > The previous page describes the home:
                            > > > > They lived in number 68
                            > > > > Foldszint - single storey
                            > > > > Szoba - 1 room
                            > > > > Kamra - A pantry
                            > > > > Eloszoba - a hall or vestibule - commonly a sunroom.
                            > > > > Raktar - a storeroom
                            > > > > Csur - a barn.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Hope that helps
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Peter M.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > On 29 January 2013 11:47, deeellessbee wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > > **
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided
                            > to
                            > > > > > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
                            > > > > > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her
                            > parents
                            > > > Janos
                            > > > > > and Marta.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc.
                            > goes
                            > > > with
                            > > > > > her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it
                            > (image
                            > > > 139)?
                            > > > > > I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
                            > > > there is
                            > > > > > any notation saying which is which anyway.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-CZP:1513958199
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family
                            > in the
                            > > > > > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos'
                            > brother.
                            > > > He is
                            > > > > > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose
                            > they
                            > > > could
                            > > > > > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are
                            > > > cousins
                            > > > > > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family?
                            > The
                            > > > > > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a
                            > > > birth
                            > > > > > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born
                            > in
                            > > > 1830,
                            > > > > > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other
                            > info
                            > > > > > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not
                            > given,
                            > > > so how
                            > > > > > sure can I be this is my family?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column
                            > > > entries, it
                            > > > > > would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty
                            > well,
                            > > > and
                            > > > > > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate
                            > is
                            > > > the
                            > > > > > pits, quite frankly.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Thank you for any help!
                            > > > > > Debbie
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • lrrykck
                            Peter  Thank you....  This is the data that you don t find in typical avenues of genealogical research. I wouldn t even know where to begin to look for it.
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jan 29, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Peter

                               Thank you....

                               This is the data that you don't find in typical avenues of genealogical research. I wouldn't even know where to begin to look for it.

                                 Understanding the basis of  the economy and what commodities our  ancestors owned or traded  
                               helps to understand their financial status and general lifestyle. 

                               I need to revisit the 1869 census with this new information....

                               Thanks again Peter.

                              Larry 

                              ----- Original Message -----


                              From: "htcstech" <htcstech@...>
                              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 3:14:30 PM
                              Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family

                              Hi Larry,

                              The classification of bulls, cows, oxen and 'borju' - calves into Hungarian
                              or Swiss was important to the economy. I got most of this info from bits
                              and pieces during wider research in genealogy and so generally not set in
                              stone.

                              The beef trade between all of old Hungary and Europe from about 1560
                              onwards became increasingly important. It was one aspect that both the
                              Turks and the Hungarians saw eye to eye on and became a mutual endeavour.
                              The Swiss (Svajczi) cows were prized for their milk in quality and
                              quantity. They were not used as work animals.
                              The Magyar cows and calves (veal - up to 3 years of age) were generally
                              meat animals. Magyar cows are brown and have prominent Y shaped long
                              straight horns and are easy to identify.
                              Selected bulls of both breeds were kept as studs. The younger bull calves
                              were kept as steers and for veal.
                              So it was important to know if a farm had a Swiss or Magyar bull.
                              I read that at the height of the beef trade, over 100,000 animals/year were
                              sent to Europe under the auspices of the Turks and Royal/Transylvanian
                              Hungarians. It certainly gave me a different perspective about the
                              importance of the plains of Pannonia and why so many wanted to control it
                              through political, religious and economic measures.

                              Peter M.

                              On 30 January 2013 07:03, <lkocik@...> wrote:

                              > **
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Hi Debbie
                              >
                              >    The 1869 census is a goldmine of data for how our ancestors lived. I
                              > think your problem is in using it to put the family together.
                              >
                              >  Maybe it would be easier to build the family [including cousins] from
                              > birth/bapt and marriage records first.
                              >
                              >     For the two men in question you could search through all records for
                              > the time period...give and take a few years ei ther way. You can record all
                              > the right surnames for that time period and then use house numbers and
                              > godparents to help you get an idea of relationships. Also with marriage
                              > records you'll have maiden names and witnesses....a lot of times marriage
                              > witnesses will be godparents to the couple's subsequant children or
                              > godparent to the person being married...but it all helps to build families.
                              >
                              >     It's time consuming but when you have all that data from the time
                              > period you'll be able to get a good picture of the different families..You
                              > should be able to start seeing connections and relationships.
                              >
                              >  Then the 1869 census will help confirm and enhance what you found in the
                              > birth and marriage records.
                              >
                              >  This is my personal method, but like I said, it's time consuming and
                              > maybe someone else has a more effcient method.
                              >
                              >  My great grandfather's family shared a house with his cousin's family. I
                              > had the same problem as you;...two heads of household with same surname and
                              >  given names...and birth dates that were only a few years apart. They ended
                              > up as cousins.
                              >
                              >  Using only the data from the 1869 census you can only make assumptions.
                              >
                              > Good luck Debbie...
                              >
                              > Larry
                              >
                              > interesting sidenote;  why are livestock broken down into sub
                              > catagories...i.e. milk cows as opposed to meat cows? was it because they
                              > were taxed at different rates?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              >
                              > From: "deeellessbee" deeellessbee@...>
                              > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 11:47:47 AM
                              > Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which
                              > family
                              >
                              > Peter, thanks for your thoughts and info.  I saw that Gyorgy was a widower
                              > with two kids, and I figured he was a relative of some kind, sharing the
                              > house with Janos.  It's just that birth date that's throwing me off.  My
                              > first thought (before realizing they have the same birth year) was that
                              > they were brothers.  Then I thought, well, what are the chances of twins
                              > (certainly possilbe, but probable?)  So, maybe it's a cousin... but would
                              > cousins share a house?  Again possible... is it more probable that they
                              > were twins or that cousins were sharing a house?  Personally, I don't know.
                              >  And then there's always the issue of how accurate the birthdates are to
                              > begin with.
                              >
                              > So, there are things to ponder there, certainly.  Unfortunately, I have no
                              > idea what Janos's parents names were.  I'd have to double-check my notes,
                              > but I think I did find a few options for him for a birth record, but again,
                              > not knowing his parents' names, and the Guman name being not-uncommon, I
                              > have no conclusive answer yet.  I suppose I could go back and see if any of
                              > those parents in the possible records for Janos, also have a son Gyorgy,
                              > but again, with a fairly common last name and two common first names, how
                              > can I be sure...?  I do believe that I did not come across twins, however,
                              > but maybe that's something to keep an eye out for.
                              >
                              > So, with all this to think about, why is my first thought to browse
                              > through the other families and see if my family owning (only) one cow a
                              > good thing or a bad thing, lol?
                              >
                              > :)
                              > Debbie
                              >
                              > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech  wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hi,
                              > > There is every possibility that it is your family.
                              > > If you have a look at the 1st and 2nd column headings, it gives evidence
                              > of
                              > > 2 families in the one house.
                              > > The first column- folyo lakas-szam - comes from the word folyo-szam or
                              > > 'running number' but it has lakas - 'householders' in this context. So
                              > it
                              > > says ' a running count of the householders in the house'. I do believe
                              > that
                              > > it means head-of-house - and in your case, there are two of them, Janos
                              > and
                              > > Gyorgy.
                              > > Column 2 says: A Lako szemelyek folyo szama - 'the inhabitants in
                              > running
                              > > order'. The running order was traditional and goes Head of House or
                              > Family
                              > > - almost always the Father, the Wife, the eldest child to the youngest
                              > > child, after that, the grandchildren. This is listed in the title of
                              > column
                              > > 3 as Csalad Feje (Head of Family or Household), Neje (wife), Gyermeke
                              > > (Children), Unokai (Grandchildren).
                              > > So there are 2 entries in column 1 and the name entries in column 2
                              > showing
                              > > the respective number of spouses and children for each head of family.
                              > > Gyorgy was a widower, so no wife, but the children are listed as per the
                              > > running order of each head.
                              > > The totals at the bottom under the double lines show exactly the numbers
                              > -
                              > > 2 families, 7 inhabitants in total comprised of 3 males and 4 females.
                              > >
                              > > As for your other question about the relationship between Gyorgy and
                              > Janos,
                              > > this archive won't give you that. However common knowledge says that if
                              > a
                              > > house is shared, it is always with a relative. Life was hard and in the
                              > > case of an ozvegy, he would be looking for another wife and/or in the
                              > > meantime living with a relative, helping out on the farm and his
                              > children
                              > > being looked after by Janos's wife.
                              > > This sort of thing happens even today, but in particular, my Grandfather
                              > > and wife lived with his father-in-law till 1942. My great aunt lives
                              > with
                              > > her daughter's family to this day after her husband died. Sometimes the
                              > > passage of time doesn't change much!
                              > > In your case though, I would try and decode the GK records for 1825 and
                              > > find out the relationships between Gyorgy and Janos.
                              > >
                              > > Peter M.
                              > >
                              > > On 29 January 2013 13:39, deeellessbee  wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > **
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Peter thanks for that help. Thanks especially for the "has a
                              > lot/parcel of
                              > > > land" - my translation only said "lot" and while I figured it meant he
                              > had
                              > > > some land, I wasn't quite sure. And I couldn't figure out the
                              > handwriting
                              > > > on the foldumoves - nothing was working in google translate for that
                              > one!
                              > > > Thanks! What do you think the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos
                              > is?
                              > > >
                              > > > After my original post, I looked again and realized that the notation
                              > for
                              > > > Marta Jr. does not look like "leany" which seems to be the regular
                              > notation
                              > > > for daughter/girl. I'm still trying to decide if the word after her
                              > name is
                              > > > something different or if the enumerator just got lazy. I do hope
                              > Marta is
                              > > > the daughter of Janos or this may not be my family.
                              > > >
                              > > > Thanks!
                              > > > Debbie
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I would say that Gyorgy was the father of Maria and Mihaly - he was
                              > > > Ozvegy
                              > > > > - or a widower, working on the land.
                              > > > > All are local. Only Marta can read/write, all the rest can't.
                              > > > > Here is the rest as I see it:
                              > > > > Janos is hazas - 'married' 6th numbered column; telkes - has a lot
                              > > > (parcel
                              > > > > of land); foldmuves (foldmuveles) - 'tiller of the soil'; vagas
                              > Mikilos -
                              > > > > is the name of the village I presume, though in reverse order of the
                              > > > title
                              > > > > page.
                              > > > > Marta is the wife - 'neje' - and ferjes - 'has a husband'
                              > > > > Anna - leany 'young woman' - hajadon - unmarried
                              > > > > Marta - (can't read the note but I presume it means girl) -
                              > > > > Gyorgy - as above
                              > > > > Maria - leany - hajadon
                              > > > > Mihaly - fia - his (Gyorgy's boy)
                              > > > >
                              > > > > All seem to work the land as there is no other distinction made for
                              > > > > employment.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The previous page describes the home:
                              > > > > They lived in number 68
                              > > > > Foldszint - single storey
                              > > > > Szoba - 1 room
                              > > > > Kamra - A pantry
                              > > > > Eloszoba - a hall or vestibule - commonly a sunroom.
                              > > > > Raktar - a storeroom
                              > > > > Csur - a barn.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Hope that helps
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Peter M.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > On 29 January 2013 11:47, deeellessbee wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > > **
                              > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided
                              > to
                              > > > > > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
                              > > > > > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her
                              > parents
                              > > > Janos
                              > > > > > and Marta.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc.
                              > goes
                              > > > with
                              > > > > > her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it
                              > (image
                              > > > 139)?
                              > > > > > I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
                              > > > there is
                              > > > > > any notation saying which is which anyway.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > >
                              > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-CZP:1513958199
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family
                              > in the
                              > > > > > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos'
                              > brother.
                              > > > He is
                              > > > > > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose
                              > they
                              > > > could
                              > > > > > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are
                              > > > cousins
                              > > > > > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family?
                              > The
                              > > > > > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a
                              > > > birth
                              > > > > > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born
                              > in
                              > > > 1830,
                              > > > > > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other
                              > info
                              > > > > > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not
                              > given,
                              > > > so how
                              > > > > > sure can I be this is my family?
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column
                              > > > entries, it
                              > > > > > would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty
                              > well,
                              > > > and
                              > > > > > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate
                              > is
                              > > > the
                              > > > > > pits, quite frankly.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Thank you for any help!
                              > > > > > Debbie
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >  
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • deeellessbee
                              Yes, Peter, thank you for this info. Looks like my family had a milk cow! Debbie
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jan 31, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Yes, Peter, thank you for this info. Looks like my family had a milk cow!

                                Debbie

                                --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi Larry,
                                >
                                > The classification of bulls, cows, oxen and 'borju' - calves into Hungarian
                                > or Swiss was important to the economy. I got most of this info from bits
                                > and pieces during wider research in genealogy and so generally not set in
                                > stone.
                                >
                                > The beef trade between all of old Hungary and Europe from about 1560
                                > onwards became increasingly important. It was one aspect that both the
                                > Turks and the Hungarians saw eye to eye on and became a mutual endeavour.
                                > The Swiss (Svajczi) cows were prized for their milk in quality and
                                > quantity. They were not used as work animals.
                                > The Magyar cows and calves (veal - up to 3 years of age) were generally
                                > meat animals. Magyar cows are brown and have prominent Y shaped long
                                > straight horns and are easy to identify.
                                > Selected bulls of both breeds were kept as studs. The younger bull calves
                                > were kept as steers and for veal.
                                > So it was important to know if a farm had a Swiss or Magyar bull.
                                > I read that at the height of the beef trade, over 100,000 animals/year were
                                > sent to Europe under the auspices of the Turks and Royal/Transylvanian
                                > Hungarians. It certainly gave me a different perspective about the
                                > importance of the plains of Pannonia and why so many wanted to control it
                                > through political, religious and economic measures.
                                >
                                > Peter M.
                                >
                                > On 30 January 2013 07:03, wrote:
                                >
                                > > **
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Hi Debbie
                                > >
                                > > The 1869 census is a goldmine of data for how our ancestors lived. I
                                > > think your problem is in using it to put the family together.
                                > >
                                > > Maybe it would be easier to build the family [including cousins] from
                                > > birth/bapt and marriage records first.
                                > >
                                > > For the two men in question you could search through all records for
                                > > the time period...give and take a few years ei ther way. You can record all
                                > > the right surnames for that time period and then use house numbers and
                                > > godparents to help you get an idea of relationships. Also with marriage
                                > > records you'll have maiden names and witnesses....a lot of times marriage
                                > > witnesses will be godparents to the couple's subsequant children or
                                > > godparent to the person being married...but it all helps to build families.
                                > >
                                > > It's time consuming but when you have all that data from the time
                                > > period you'll be able to get a good picture of the different families..You
                                > > should be able to start seeing connections and relationships.
                                > >
                                > > Then the 1869 census will help confirm and enhance what you found in the
                                > > birth and marriage records.
                                > >
                                > > This is my personal method, but like I said, it's time consuming and
                                > > maybe someone else has a more effcient method.
                                > >
                                > > My great grandfather's family shared a house with his cousin's family. I
                                > > had the same problem as you;...two heads of household with same surname and
                                > > given names...and birth dates that were only a few years apart. They ended
                                > > up as cousins.
                                > >
                                > > Using only the data from the 1869 census you can only make assumptions.
                                > >
                                > > Good luck Debbie...
                                > >
                                > > Larry
                                > >
                                > > interesting sidenote; why are livestock broken down into sub
                                > > catagories...i.e. milk cows as opposed to meat cows? was it because they
                                > > were taxed at different rates?
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > >
                                > > From: "deeellessbee" deeellessbee@...>
                                > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 11:47:47 AM
                                > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which
                                > > family
                                > >
                                > > Peter, thanks for your thoughts and info. I saw that Gyorgy was a widower
                                > > with two kids, and I figured he was a relative of some kind, sharing the
                                > > house with Janos. It's just that birth date that's throwing me off. My
                                > > first thought (before realizing they have the same birth year) was that
                                > > they were brothers. Then I thought, well, what are the chances of twins
                                > > (certainly possilbe, but probable?) So, maybe it's a cousin... but would
                                > > cousins share a house? Again possible... is it more probable that they
                                > > were twins or that cousins were sharing a house? Personally, I don't know.
                                > > And then there's always the issue of how accurate the birthdates are to
                                > > begin with.
                                > >
                                > > So, there are things to ponder there, certainly. Unfortunately, I have no
                                > > idea what Janos's parents names were. I'd have to double-check my notes,
                                > > but I think I did find a few options for him for a birth record, but again,
                                > > not knowing his parents' names, and the Guman name being not-uncommon, I
                                > > have no conclusive answer yet. I suppose I could go back and see if any of
                                > > those parents in the possible records for Janos, also have a son Gyorgy,
                                > > but again, with a fairly common last name and two common first names, how
                                > > can I be sure...? I do believe that I did not come across twins, however,
                                > > but maybe that's something to keep an eye out for.
                                > >
                                > > So, with all this to think about, why is my first thought to browse
                                > > through the other families and see if my family owning (only) one cow a
                                > > good thing or a bad thing, lol?
                                > >
                                > > :)
                                > > Debbie
                                > >
                                > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Hi,
                                > > > There is every possibility that it is your family.
                                > > > If you have a look at the 1st and 2nd column headings, it gives evidence
                                > > of
                                > > > 2 families in the one house.
                                > > > The first column- folyo lakas-szam - comes from the word folyo-szam or
                                > > > 'running number' but it has lakas - 'householders' in this context. So
                                > > it
                                > > > says ' a running count of the householders in the house'. I do believe
                                > > that
                                > > > it means head-of-house - and in your case, there are two of them, Janos
                                > > and
                                > > > Gyorgy.
                                > > > Column 2 says: A Lako szemelyek folyo szama - 'the inhabitants in
                                > > running
                                > > > order'. The running order was traditional and goes Head of House or
                                > > Family
                                > > > - almost always the Father, the Wife, the eldest child to the youngest
                                > > > child, after that, the grandchildren. This is listed in the title of
                                > > column
                                > > > 3 as Csalad Feje (Head of Family or Household), Neje (wife), Gyermeke
                                > > > (Children), Unokai (Grandchildren).
                                > > > So there are 2 entries in column 1 and the name entries in column 2
                                > > showing
                                > > > the respective number of spouses and children for each head of family.
                                > > > Gyorgy was a widower, so no wife, but the children are listed as per the
                                > > > running order of each head.
                                > > > The totals at the bottom under the double lines show exactly the numbers
                                > > -
                                > > > 2 families, 7 inhabitants in total comprised of 3 males and 4 females.
                                > > >
                                > > > As for your other question about the relationship between Gyorgy and
                                > > Janos,
                                > > > this archive won't give you that. However common knowledge says that if
                                > > a
                                > > > house is shared, it is always with a relative. Life was hard and in the
                                > > > case of an ozvegy, he would be looking for another wife and/or in the
                                > > > meantime living with a relative, helping out on the farm and his
                                > > children
                                > > > being looked after by Janos's wife.
                                > > > This sort of thing happens even today, but in particular, my Grandfather
                                > > > and wife lived with his father-in-law till 1942. My great aunt lives
                                > > with
                                > > > her daughter's family to this day after her husband died. Sometimes the
                                > > > passage of time doesn't change much!
                                > > > In your case though, I would try and decode the GK records for 1825 and
                                > > > find out the relationships between Gyorgy and Janos.
                                > > >
                                > > > Peter M.
                                > > >
                                > > > On 29 January 2013 13:39, deeellessbee wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > > **
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Peter thanks for that help. Thanks especially for the "has a
                                > > lot/parcel of
                                > > > > land" - my translation only said "lot" and while I figured it meant he
                                > > had
                                > > > > some land, I wasn't quite sure. And I couldn't figure out the
                                > > handwriting
                                > > > > on the foldumoves - nothing was working in google translate for that
                                > > one!
                                > > > > Thanks! What do you think the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos
                                > > is?
                                > > > >
                                > > > > After my original post, I looked again and realized that the notation
                                > > for
                                > > > > Marta Jr. does not look like "leany" which seems to be the regular
                                > > notation
                                > > > > for daughter/girl. I'm still trying to decide if the word after her
                                > > name is
                                > > > > something different or if the enumerator just got lazy. I do hope
                                > > Marta is
                                > > > > the daughter of Janos or this may not be my family.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Thanks!
                                > > > > Debbie
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > I would say that Gyorgy was the father of Maria and Mihaly - he was
                                > > > > Ozvegy
                                > > > > > - or a widower, working on the land.
                                > > > > > All are local. Only Marta can read/write, all the rest can't.
                                > > > > > Here is the rest as I see it:
                                > > > > > Janos is hazas - 'married' 6th numbered column; telkes - has a lot
                                > > > > (parcel
                                > > > > > of land); foldmuves (foldmuveles) - 'tiller of the soil'; vagas
                                > > Mikilos -
                                > > > > > is the name of the village I presume, though in reverse order of the
                                > > > > title
                                > > > > > page.
                                > > > > > Marta is the wife - 'neje' - and ferjes - 'has a husband'
                                > > > > > Anna - leany 'young woman' - hajadon - unmarried
                                > > > > > Marta - (can't read the note but I presume it means girl) -
                                > > > > > Gyorgy - as above
                                > > > > > Maria - leany - hajadon
                                > > > > > Mihaly - fia - his (Gyorgy's boy)
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > All seem to work the land as there is no other distinction made for
                                > > > > > employment.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > The previous page describes the home:
                                > > > > > They lived in number 68
                                > > > > > Foldszint - single storey
                                > > > > > Szoba - 1 room
                                > > > > > Kamra - A pantry
                                > > > > > Eloszoba - a hall or vestibule - commonly a sunroom.
                                > > > > > Raktar - a storeroom
                                > > > > > Csur - a barn.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Hope that helps
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Peter M.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > On 29 January 2013 11:47, deeellessbee wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > > **
                                > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided
                                > > to
                                > > > > > > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
                                > > > > > > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her
                                > > parents
                                > > > > Janos
                                > > > > > > and Marta.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc.
                                > > goes
                                > > > > with
                                > > > > > > her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it
                                > > (image
                                > > > > 139)?
                                > > > > > > I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
                                > > > > there is
                                > > > > > > any notation saying which is which anyway.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-CZP:1513958199
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family
                                > > in the
                                > > > > > > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos'
                                > > brother.
                                > > > > He is
                                > > > > > > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose
                                > > they
                                > > > > could
                                > > > > > > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are
                                > > > > cousins
                                > > > > > > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family?
                                > > The
                                > > > > > > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a
                                > > > > birth
                                > > > > > > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born
                                > > in
                                > > > > 1830,
                                > > > > > > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other
                                > > info
                                > > > > > > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not
                                > > given,
                                > > > > so how
                                > > > > > > sure can I be this is my family?
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column
                                > > > > entries, it
                                > > > > > > would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty
                                > > well,
                                > > > > and
                                > > > > > > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate
                                > > is
                                > > > > the
                                > > > > > > pits, quite frankly.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Thank you for any help!
                                > > > > > > Debbie
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
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                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
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                                > > >
                                > >
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                                > >
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                                >
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