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Re: [S-R] Missing Online 1869 Census Records have restrictions

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  • hwedhlor
    John, In my experience the only reason the LDS FamilySearch.org site does not make available online records that it has in its possession is that the owners of
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 2, 2013
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      John,

      In my experience the only reason the LDS FamilySearch.org
      site does not make available online records that it has in
      its possession is that the owners of those records have
      forbidden their display online, or that they have not yet
      been indexed. The record owners (in this case the Government
      of Slovakia and/or Hungary) have complete control over
      whether records may be placed online or not.

      In the case of the 1869 Hungarian Census at one time all of
      the Slovak files were pulled. Slovakia has a 100 years rule
      that says records must be at least 100 years old to be
      viewed. When they were microfilmed by the LDS workers the
      teams photographed all the pages they were given access to.
      In many cases they photographed records into the 1920's. The
      Slovak government complained about breaking the 100 year
      rule and the Family History Library workers were asked to
      expunge those records that were less than 100 years old.
      There is some speculation that some of the later records
      were overlooked, and that may have resulted in certain
      record groups from being available online.

      John Zimmerman
      Mesa, AZ

      On 1/1/2013 3:48 PM, John wrote:
      >
      > Here's a strange response from LDS on the subject of 1869
      > Hungarian Census films that DO NOT appear online. The
      > logic evades me.
      >
      > BTW, I used Dubravka, Zemplen Megye as an example in my query.
      >
      > ******
      >
      > Thank you for contacting FamilySearch regarding records
      > from the 1869 Hungary Census, Zemplen that are recorded in
      > the Catalog, but are not yet available online.
      >
      > We checked the film and discovered that the record
      > custodians have restricted film number 722688 from online
      > access at this time. You may order the film to a nearby
      > FamilySearch Center by following the instructions in this
      > link:
      > https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Ordering_Microfilm_or_Microfiche.
      > Please be sure to call the FamilySearch Center to assure
      > that they have the equipment needed to view the film once
      > it comes in.
      >
      > We hope this information is helpful in your understanding
      > of our records. We wish you well in the New Year.
      >
      > Sincerely,
      >
      > FamilySearch
      > Research Assistance
      > support@... <mailto:support%40familysearch.org>
      >
      > ----------------------
      > (CaseID:2889002)
      > ----------------------
      >
      >
    • John
      Sorry, your explanation does not hold water. This is the 1869 Hungarian Census -- not more recent church records. My hypothesis is that certain Zemplen Megye
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 2, 2013
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        Sorry, your explanation does not hold water. This is the 1869 Hungarian Census -- not more recent church records.

        My hypothesis is that certain Zemplen Megye films include what is now part of Hungary and so those films are not being placed online. However, LDS did not say that.

        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, hwedhlor <Hwedhlor@...> wrote:
        >
        > John,
        >
        > In my experience the only reason the LDS FamilySearch.org
        > site does not make available online records that it has in
        > its possession is that the owners of those records have
        > forbidden their display online, or that they have not yet
        > been indexed. The record owners (in this case the Government
        > of Slovakia and/or Hungary) have complete control over
        > whether records may be placed online or not.
        >
        > In the case of the 1869 Hungarian Census at one time all of
        > the Slovak files were pulled. Slovakia has a 100 years rule
        > that says records must be at least 100 years old to be
        > viewed. When they were microfilmed by the LDS workers the
        > teams photographed all the pages they were given access to.
        > In many cases they photographed records into the 1920's. The
        > Slovak government complained about breaking the 100 year
        > rule and the Family History Library workers were asked to
        > expunge those records that were less than 100 years old.
        > There is some speculation that some of the later records
        > were overlooked, and that may have resulted in certain
        > record groups from being available online.
        >
        > John Zimmerman
        > Mesa, AZ
        >
        > On 1/1/2013 3:48 PM, John wrote:
        > >
        > > Here's a strange response from LDS on the subject of 1869
        > > Hungarian Census films that DO NOT appear online. The
        > > logic evades me.
        > >
        > > BTW, I used Dubravka, Zemplen Megye as an example in my query.
        > >
        > > ******
        > >
        > > Thank you for contacting FamilySearch regarding records
        > > from the 1869 Hungary Census, Zemplen that are recorded in
        > > the Catalog, but are not yet available online.
        > >
        > > We checked the film and discovered that the record
        > > custodians have restricted film number 722688 from online
        > > access at this time. You may order the film to a nearby
        > > FamilySearch Center by following the instructions in this
        > > link:
        > > https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Ordering_Microfilm_or_Microfiche.
        > > Please be sure to call the FamilySearch Center to assure
        > > that they have the equipment needed to view the film once
        > > it comes in.
        > >
        > > We hope this information is helpful in your understanding
        > > of our records. We wish you well in the New Year.
        > >
        > > Sincerely,
        > >
        > > FamilySearch
        > > Research Assistance
        > > support@... <mailto:support%40familysearch.org>
        > >
        > > ----------------------
        > > (CaseID:2889002)
        > > ----------------------
        > >
        > >
        >
      • htcstech
        I did look at the geography of the town as old Zemplen is now split between Hungary and Slovakia as being the probable cause. As far as I know, the Hungarians
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 2, 2013
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          I did look at the geography of the town as old Zemplen is now split between
          Hungary and Slovakia as being the probable cause. As far as I know, the
          Hungarians haven't released the census to the public domain, well at least
          it is not available on-line anywhere so your theory is probably right, but
          if certain 'Slovak' Zemplen records are available then why does the LDS
          release all of them?
          I think the strategy would be to ask for a review to make all these records
          online or at least a better explanation of why they are not.
          My theory is slightly different, though a bit convoluted: That the ethnic
          border and political borders are causing angst and the LDS wants to remain
          neutral. All it takes is an objection from one side and I would think the
          LDS would have complied.
          There is a precedent of sorts where a scholarly work on the diaspora of
          17th century (within present day Slovakia) was used by a Hungarian
          organisation to show that there were actually very few Slavics*, opposing
          the current views especially of the Czechoslovak Republic (post Trianon)
          and the Slovak government contention that these areas were historically
          Slavic. So I can see a Slovak objection if some of those southern Zemplen
          towns were ethnically Hungarian in 1869. A prickly subject.

          Peter M.

          On 3 January 2013 08:47, John <johnqadam@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > Sorry, your explanation does not hold water. This is the 1869 Hungarian
          > Census -- not more recent church records.
          >
          > My hypothesis is that certain Zemplen Megye films include what is now part
          > of Hungary and so those films are not being placed online. However, LDS did
          > not say that.
          >
          >
          > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, hwedhlor <Hwedhlor@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > John,
          > >
          > > In my experience the only reason the LDS FamilySearch.org
          > > site does not make available online records that it has in
          > > its possession is that the owners of those records have
          > > forbidden their display online, or that they have not yet
          > > been indexed. The record owners (in this case the Government
          > > of Slovakia and/or Hungary) have complete control over
          > > whether records may be placed online or not.
          > >
          > > In the case of the 1869 Hungarian Census at one time all of
          > > the Slovak files were pulled. Slovakia has a 100 years rule
          > > that says records must be at least 100 years old to be
          > > viewed. When they were microfilmed by the LDS workers the
          > > teams photographed all the pages they were given access to.
          > > In many cases they photographed records into the 1920's. The
          > > Slovak government complained about breaking the 100 year
          > > rule and the Family History Library workers were asked to
          > > expunge those records that were less than 100 years old.
          > > There is some speculation that some of the later records
          > > were overlooked, and that may have resulted in certain
          > > record groups from being available online.
          > >
          > > John Zimmerman
          > > Mesa, AZ
          > >
          > > On 1/1/2013 3:48 PM, John wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Here's a strange response from LDS on the subject of 1869
          > > > Hungarian Census films that DO NOT appear online. The
          > > > logic evades me.
          > > >
          > > > BTW, I used Dubravka, Zemplen Megye as an example in my query.
          > > >
          > > > ******
          > > >
          > > > Thank you for contacting FamilySearch regarding records
          > > > from the 1869 Hungary Census, Zemplen that are recorded in
          > > > the Catalog, but are not yet available online.
          > > >
          > > > We checked the film and discovered that the record
          > > > custodians have restricted film number 722688 from online
          > > > access at this time. You may order the film to a nearby
          > > > FamilySearch Center by following the instructions in this
          > > > link:
          > > >
          > https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Ordering_Microfilm_or_Microfiche.
          > > > Please be sure to call the FamilySearch Center to assure
          > > > that they have the equipment needed to view the film once
          > > > it comes in.
          > > >
          > > > We hope this information is helpful in your understanding
          > > > of our records. We wish you well in the New Year.
          > > >
          > > > Sincerely,
          > > >
          > > > FamilySearch
          > > > Research Assistance
          > > > support@... <mailto:support%40familysearch.org>
          > > >
          > > > ----------------------
          > > > (CaseID:2889002)
          > > > ----------------------
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • CurtB
          John Q. et alia The logic of this is quite simple, though not immediately obvious. The creation of the online records has proceeded by archive location of the
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 3, 2013
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            John Q. et alia

            The logic of this is quite simple, though not immediately obvious. The creation of the online records has proceeded by archive location of the original because it is individual archives who actuallly give the permissions to online availability, though they often are dependent on national government policy. So, Zemplin census records that are located in certain archives in the Slovak Republic are online - the list is given in detail in the introduction to the census records in the Family History library. But records for those villages of that census that are in Hungarian archives are not. Neither are the villages whose records of that census are in the Presov archive in Slovakia. The Presov records may give permission but may not, because the archive is still trying to negotiate with Hungarian archives to return records for many Slovak villages which were supposed to have been returned after the Trianon treaty, but were not.

            The Hungarian government claims not to have such records, but some records of Hungarian archives have been filmed by LDS, e.g., the 1869 records of Esztergom, which also happen to contain records of two villages now in Slovakia. This record can also be borrowed in Family History libraries to see the census of those villages in western Slovakia also.

            The family history catalog indexes only give detailed information in the index of materials that are actually online. Just like village names are not listed for records for baptisms, etc. when those villages are not the primary location, and we are on our own to find out which other village they are included within.

            Contrary to speculation of some, the village you mentioned, Dubravka, was not of Hungarian ethnicity. It was and is primarily Rusyn and Greek Catholic but also a large Slovak population.

            Curt B.

            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "John" wrote:
            >
            > Here's a strange response from LDS on the subject of 1869 Hungarian Census films that DO NOT appear online. The logic evades me.
            >
            > BTW, I used Dubravka, Zemplen Megye as an example in my query.
            >
            > ******
            >
            > Thank you for contacting FamilySearch regarding records from the 1869 Hungary Census, Zemplen that are recorded in the Catalog, but are not yet available online.
            >
            > We checked the film and discovered that the record custodians have restricted film number 722688 from online access at this time. You may order the film to a nearby FamilySearch Center by following the instructions in this link: https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Ordering_Microfilm_or_Microfiche. Please be sure to call the FamilySearch Center to assure that they have the equipment needed to view the film once it comes in.
            >
            > We hope this information is helpful in your understanding of our records. We wish you well in the New Year.
            >
            > Sincerely,
            >
            > FamilySearch
            > Research Assistance
            > support@...
            >
            >
            > ----------------------
            > (CaseID:2889002)
            > ----------------------
            >
          • John
            No, that logic doesn t wash either. The Dubravka film (as an example) is in the same archive as the other Zemplen films. Those of us who care can only access
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 3, 2013
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              No, that logic doesn't wash either. The Dubravka film (as an example) is in the same archive as the other Zemplen films.

              Those of us who care can only access the info by ordering the film(s).

              --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" wrote:
              >
              > John Q. et alia
              >
              > The logic of this is quite simple, though not immediately obvious. The creation of the online records has proceeded by archive location of the original because it is individual archives who actuallly give the permissions to online availability, though they often are dependent on national government policy. So, Zemplin census records that are located in certain archives in the Slovak Republic are online - the list is given in detail in the introduction to the census records in the Family History library. But records for those villages of that census that are in Hungarian archives are not. Neither are the villages whose records of that census are in the Presov archive in Slovakia. The Presov records may give permission but may not, because the archive is still trying to negotiate with Hungarian archives to return records for many Slovak villages which were supposed to have been returned after the Trianon treaty, but were not.
              >
              > The Hungarian government claims not to have such records, but some records of Hungarian archives have been filmed by LDS, e.g., the 1869 records of Esztergom, which also happen to contain records of two villages now in Slovakia. This record can also be borrowed in Family History libraries to see the census of those villages in western Slovakia also.
              >
              > The family history catalog indexes only give detailed information in the index of materials that are actually online. Just like village names are not listed for records for baptisms, etc. when those villages are not the primary location, and we are on our own to find out which other village they are included within.
              >
              > Contrary to speculation of some, the village you mentioned, Dubravka, was not of Hungarian ethnicity. It was and is primarily Rusyn and Greek Catholic but also a large Slovak population.
              >
              > Curt B.
              >
              > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "John" wrote:
              > >
              > > Here's a strange response from LDS on the subject of 1869 Hungarian Census films that DO NOT appear online. The logic evades me.
              > >
              > > BTW, I used Dubravka, Zemplen Megye as an example in my query.
              > >
              > > ******
              > >
              > > Thank you for contacting FamilySearch regarding records from the 1869 Hungary Census, Zemplen that are recorded in the Catalog, but are not yet available online.
              > >
              > > We checked the film and discovered that the record custodians have restricted film number 722688 from online access at this time. You may order the film to a nearby FamilySearch Center by following the instructions in this link: https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Ordering_Microfilm_or_Microfiche. Please be sure to call the FamilySearch Center to assure that they have the equipment needed to view the film once it comes in.
              > >
              > > We hope this information is helpful in your understanding of our records. We wish you well in the New Year.
              > >
              > > Sincerely,
              > >
              > > FamilySearch
              > > Research Assistance
              > > support@
              > >
              > >
              > > ----------------------
              > > (CaseID:2889002)
              > > ----------------------
              > >
              >
            • htcstech
              Hello Curt. If the Hungarians have the missing records for some Slovak villages and the Slovaks refuse to give permission to release what they do have on-line
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 3, 2013
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                Hello Curt.

                If the Hungarians have the missing records for some Slovak villages and the
                Slovaks refuse to give permission to release what they do have on-line then
                both are acting very childish in my opinion. If the Hungarians don't have
                the missing records, then, according to the current Slovak policy, no other
                records under their control will go on-line in the disputed territories.
                This is not a matter of missing sources. The original question was why
                Dubvravka is not available online. There was no satisfactory answer except
                that the physical films are available.
                For some reason, the Slovaks or Hungarians do not want the Dubravka records
                to go on-line. Whether this is some kind of Trump card the Slovaks are
                trying to play makes no sense.

                Peter M.

                On 4 January 2013 05:46, CurtB <curt67boc@...> wrote:

                > **
                >
                >
                > John Q. et alia
                >
                > The logic of this is quite simple, though not immediately obvious. The
                > creation of the online records has proceeded by archive location of the
                > original because it is individual archives who actuallly give the
                > permissions to online availability, though they often are dependent on
                > national government policy. So, Zemplin census records that are located in
                > certain archives in the Slovak Republic are online - the list is given in
                > detail in the introduction to the census records in the Family History
                > library. But records for those villages of that census that are in
                > Hungarian archives are not. Neither are the villages whose records of that
                > census are in the Presov archive in Slovakia. The Presov records may give
                > permission but may not, because the archive is still trying to negotiate
                > with Hungarian archives to return records for many Slovak villages which
                > were supposed to have been returned after the Trianon treaty, but were not.
                >
                > The Hungarian government claims not to have such records, but some records
                > of Hungarian archives have been filmed by LDS, e.g., the 1869 records of
                > Esztergom, which also happen to contain records of two villages now in
                > Slovakia. This record can also be borrowed in Family History libraries to
                > see the census of those villages in western Slovakia also.
                >
                > The family history catalog indexes only give detailed information in the
                > index of materials that are actually online. Just like village names are
                > not listed for records for baptisms, etc. when those villages are not the
                > primary location, and we are on our own to find out which other village
                > they are included within.
                >
                > Contrary to speculation of some, the village you mentioned, Dubravka, was
                > not of Hungarian ethnicity. It was and is primarily Rusyn and Greek
                > Catholic but also a large Slovak population.
                >
                > Curt B.
                >
                >
                > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "John" wrote:
                > >
                > > Here's a strange response from LDS on the subject of 1869 Hungarian
                > Census films that DO NOT appear online. The logic evades me.
                > >
                > > BTW, I used Dubravka, Zemplen Megye as an example in my query.
                > >
                > > ******
                > >
                > > Thank you for contacting FamilySearch regarding records from the 1869
                > Hungary Census, Zemplen that are recorded in the Catalog, but are not yet
                > available online.
                > >
                > > We checked the film and discovered that the record custodians have
                > restricted film number 722688 from online access at this time. You may
                > order the film to a nearby FamilySearch Center by following the
                > instructions in this link:
                > https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Ordering_Microfilm_or_Microfiche.Please be sure to call the FamilySearch Center to assure that they have the
                > equipment needed to view the film once it comes in.
                > >
                > > We hope this information is helpful in your understanding of our
                > records. We wish you well in the New Year.
                > >
                > > Sincerely,
                > >
                > > FamilySearch
                > > Research Assistance
                > > support@...
                > >
                > >
                > > ----------------------
                > > (CaseID:2889002)
                > > ----------------------
                > >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • CurtB
                Peter, You seem determined not to understand. None of the 1869 census records that are in the Presov archive covering the Zemplin territory villages have been
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 3, 2013
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                  Peter,
                  You seem determined not to understand.

                  None of the 1869 census records that are in the Presov archive covering the Zemplin territory villages have been approved for online status. They are being reviewed NOW. They are likely to be approved for release. This is NOT a political decision. So far the only Slovak films specifically not released for online status have been films that contain data that exceed Slovak statute of limitations of information of 100 years.
                  The Presov archive is very understaffed and has other projects to finish first.

                  Each film must be reviewed by the holding archive of the original documents. It took several years for baptismal, marriage, death records to be reviewed and released, and so they appeared online sequentially village by village over several years as indexers carrried out their work. There is still more work to be done here on several villages.

                  In the meantime people can still borrow the films already in existence so the data is not being held secret. The only related archives that decline to make anything available except by visit to the archive are a number in Hungary.
                  The related archives of the Ukraine and Poland are also entirely unavailable except by personal visit.

                  Slovakia is the rare exception among national archives that has made so much data available, but there is still a long way to go because it takes so large financial resources to film or place online such records. The family history library is maintained by the Mormon church which supplied the millions it required to produce the Slovak records online.

                  CB

                  --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Curt.
                  >
                  > If the Hungarians have the missing records for some Slovak villages and the
                  > Slovaks refuse to give permission to release what they do have on-line then
                  > both are acting very childish in my opinion. If the Hungarians don't have
                  > the missing records, then, according to the current Slovak policy, no other
                  > records under their control will go on-line in the disputed territories.
                  > This is not a matter of missing sources. The original question was why
                  > Dubvravka is not available online. There was no satisfactory answer except
                  > that the physical films are available.
                  > For some reason, the Slovaks or Hungarians do not want the Dubravka records
                  > to go on-line. Whether this is some kind of Trump card the Slovaks are
                  > trying to play makes no sense.
                  >
                  > Peter M.
                  >
                  > On 4 January 2013 05:46, CurtB wrote:
                  >
                  > > **
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > John Q. et alia
                  > >
                  > > The logic of this is quite simple, though not immediately obvious. The
                  > > creation of the online records has proceeded by archive location of the
                  > > original because it is individual archives who actuallly give the
                  > > permissions to online availability, though they often are dependent on
                  > > national government policy. So, Zemplin census records that are located in
                  > > certain archives in the Slovak Republic are online - the list is given in
                  > > detail in the introduction to the census records in the Family History
                  > > library. But records for those villages of that census that are in
                  > > Hungarian archives are not. Neither are the villages whose records of that
                  > > census are in the Presov archive in Slovakia. The Presov records may give
                  > > permission but may not, because the archive is still trying to negotiate
                  > > with Hungarian archives to return records for many Slovak villages which
                  > > were supposed to have been returned after the Trianon treaty, but were not.
                  > >
                  > > The Hungarian government claims not to have such records, but some records
                  > > of Hungarian archives have been filmed by LDS, e.g., the 1869 records of
                  > > Esztergom, which also happen to contain records of two villages now in
                  > > Slovakia. This record can also be borrowed in Family History libraries to
                  > > see the census of those villages in western Slovakia also.
                  > >
                  > > The family history catalog indexes only give detailed information in the
                  > > index of materials that are actually online. Just like village names are
                  > > not listed for records for baptisms, etc. when those villages are not the
                  > > primary location, and we are on our own to find out which other village
                  > > they are included within.
                  > >
                  > > Contrary to speculation of some, the village you mentioned, Dubravka, was
                  > > not of Hungarian ethnicity. It was and is primarily Rusyn and Greek
                  > > Catholic but also a large Slovak population.
                  > >
                  > > Curt B.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "John" wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Here's a strange response from LDS on the subject of 1869 Hungarian
                  > > Census films that DO NOT appear online. The logic evades me.
                  > > >
                  > > > BTW, I used Dubravka, Zemplen Megye as an example in my query.
                  > > >
                  > > > ******
                  > > >
                  > > > Thank you for contacting FamilySearch regarding records from the 1869
                  > > Hungary Census, Zemplen that are recorded in the Catalog, but are not yet
                  > > available online.
                  > > >
                  > > > We checked the film and discovered that the record custodians have
                  > > restricted film number 722688 from online access at this time. You may
                  > > order the film to a nearby FamilySearch Center by following the
                  > > instructions in this link:
                  > > https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Ordering_Microfilm_or_Microfiche.Please be sure to call the FamilySearch Center to assure that they have the
                  > > equipment needed to view the film once it comes in.
                  > > >
                  > > > We hope this information is helpful in your understanding of our
                  > > records. We wish you well in the New Year.
                  > > >
                  > > > Sincerely,
                  > > >
                  > > > FamilySearch
                  > > > Research Assistance
                  > > > support@
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ----------------------
                  > > > (CaseID:2889002)
                  > > > ----------------------
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • htcstech
                  Curt, I m only reacting to what you wrote. I get the message that it is up to the overworked Presov archivists to eventually give licence to the LDS (who are
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jan 4, 2013
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                    Curt,
                    I'm only reacting to what you wrote.

                    I get the message that it is up to the overworked Presov archivists to
                    eventually give licence to the LDS (who are paying for this), to place
                    their whole region's census archive for 1869 on-line at once, after
                    successful, policy inspired non-political negotiations with the Hungarian
                    archivists. This is of course after they check the records that are in
                    existence in at least 2 public archives already and then re-catalogue it.
                    Sounds like a perfectly good bureaucracy.

                    That's about it.

                    Peter M.


                    Peter,
                    > You seem determined not to understand.
                    >
                    > None of the 1869 census records that are in the Presov archive covering
                    > the Zemplin territory villages have been approved for online status. They
                    > are being reviewed NOW. They are likely to be approved for release. This is
                    > NOT a political decision. So far the only Slovak films specifically not
                    > released for online status have been films that contain data that exceed
                    > Slovak statute of limitations of information of 100 years.
                    > The Presov archive is very understaffed and has other projects to finish
                    > first.
                    >
                    > Each film must be reviewed by the holding archive of the original
                    > documents. It took several years for baptismal, marriage, death records to
                    > be reviewed and released, and so they appeared online sequentially village
                    > by village over several years as indexers carrried out their work. There is
                    > still more work to be done here on several villages.
                    >
                    > In the meantime people can still borrow the films already in existence so
                    > the data is not being held secret. The only related archives that decline
                    > to make anything available except by visit to the archive are a number in
                    > Hungary.
                    > The related archives of the Ukraine and Poland are also entirely
                    > unavailable except by personal visit.
                    >
                    > Slovakia is the rare exception among national archives that has made so
                    > much data available, but there is still a long way to go because it takes
                    > so large financial resources to film or place online such records. The
                    > family history library is maintained by the Mormon church which supplied
                    > the millions it required to produce the Slovak records online.
                    >
                    > CB
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hello Curt.
                    > >
                    > > If the Hungarians have the missing records for some Slovak villages and
                    > the
                    > > Slovaks refuse to give permission to release what they do have on-line
                    > then
                    > > both are acting very childish in my opinion. If the Hungarians don't have
                    > > the missing records, then, according to the current Slovak policy, no
                    > other
                    > > records under their control will go on-line in the disputed territories.
                    > > This is not a matter of missing sources. The original question was why
                    > > Dubvravka is not available online. There was no satisfactory answer
                    > except
                    > > that the physical films are available.
                    > > For some reason, the Slovaks or Hungarians do not want the Dubravka
                    > records
                    > > to go on-line. Whether this is some kind of Trump card the Slovaks are
                    > > trying to play makes no sense.
                    > >
                    > > Peter M.
                    > >
                    > > On 4 January 2013 05:46, CurtB wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > **
                    >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > John Q. et alia
                    > > >
                    > > > The logic of this is quite simple, though not immediately obvious. The
                    > > > creation of the online records has proceeded by archive location of the
                    > > > original because it is individual archives who actuallly give the
                    > > > permissions to online availability, though they often are dependent on
                    > > > national government policy. So, Zemplin census records that are
                    > located in
                    > > > certain archives in the Slovak Republic are online - the list is given
                    > in
                    > > > detail in the introduction to the census records in the Family History
                    > > > library. But records for those villages of that census that are in
                    > > > Hungarian archives are not. Neither are the villages whose records of
                    > that
                    > > > census are in the Presov archive in Slovakia. The Presov records may
                    > give
                    > > > permission but may not, because the archive is still trying to
                    > negotiate
                    > > > with Hungarian archives to return records for many Slovak villages
                    > which
                    > > > were supposed to have been returned after the Trianon treaty, but were
                    > not.
                    > > >
                    > > > The Hungarian government claims not to have such records, but some
                    > records
                    > > > of Hungarian archives have been filmed by LDS, e.g., the 1869 records
                    > of
                    > > > Esztergom, which also happen to contain records of two villages now in
                    > > > Slovakia. This record can also be borrowed in Family History libraries
                    > to
                    > > > see the census of those villages in western Slovakia also.
                    > > >
                    > > > The family history catalog indexes only give detailed information in
                    > the
                    > > > index of materials that are actually online. Just like village names
                    > are
                    > > > not listed for records for baptisms, etc. when those villages are not
                    > the
                    > > > primary location, and we are on our own to find out which other village
                    > > > they are included within.
                    > > >
                    > > > Contrary to speculation of some, the village you mentioned, Dubravka,
                    > was
                    > > > not of Hungarian ethnicity. It was and is primarily Rusyn and Greek
                    > > > Catholic but also a large Slovak population.
                    > > >
                    > > > Curt B.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "John" wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Here's a strange response from LDS on the subject of 1869 Hungarian
                    > > > Census films that DO NOT appear online. The logic evades me.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > BTW, I used Dubravka, Zemplen Megye as an example in my query.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ******
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Thank you for contacting FamilySearch regarding records from the 1869
                    > > > Hungary Census, Zemplen that are recorded in the Catalog, but are not
                    > yet
                    > > > available online.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > We checked the film and discovered that the record custodians have
                    > > > restricted film number 722688 from online access at this time. You may
                    > > > order the film to a nearby FamilySearch Center by following the
                    > > > instructions in this link:
                    > > >
                    > https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Ordering_Microfilm_or_Microfiche.Pleasebe sure to call the FamilySearch Center to assure that they have the
                    >
                    > > > equipment needed to view the film once it comes in.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > We hope this information is helpful in your understanding of our
                    > > > records. We wish you well in the New Year.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Sincerely,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > FamilySearch
                    > > > > Research Assistance
                    > > > > support@
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ----------------------
                    > > > > (CaseID:2889002)
                    > > > > ----------------------
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • John
                    ... That s not quite correct. SOME of the ZEMPLEN Megye films are available online. Because my particular interest is Dubravka, which is not online, I used it
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jan 4, 2013
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                      >>> None of the 1869 census records that are in the Presov archive covering the Zemplin territory villages have been approved for online status. <<<

                      That's not quite correct. SOME of the ZEMPLEN Megye films are available online. Because my particular interest is Dubravka, which is not online, I used it as an example in my query to LDS.

                      I have not surveyed the online films to determine what proportion is currently online. Nor have I checked other counties for completeness of online listings.
                    • htcstech
                      John, That s what I thought too, that there are already Zemplen records online and Dubravka missed out for some reason. Maybe an email to the Presov archive
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jan 4, 2013
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                        John,
                        That's what I thought too, that there are already Zemplen records online
                        and Dubravka missed out for some reason.
                        Maybe an email to the Presov archive requesting them to allow the LDS to
                        put it online might be a strategy. The LDS and Curt have suggested that the
                        archive custodians have restricted access. I think it is your right to ask
                        why.
                        I'm waiting for Pozsony megye to come online, although I would want the
                        whole of the pre-Trianon territories in a perfect world, fully and
                        accurately indexed :) I haven't yet started on my mother's side and they
                        stretch from Romania to the Ukraine. Maybe in another lifetime.

                        Peter M.

                        On 4 January 2013 23:55, John <johnqadam@...> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        > >>> None of the 1869 census records that are in the Presov archive
                        > covering the Zemplin territory villages have been approved for online
                        > status. <<<
                        >
                        > That's not quite correct. SOME of the ZEMPLEN Megye films are available
                        > online. Because my particular interest is Dubravka, which is not online, I
                        > used it as an example in my query to LDS.
                        >
                        > I have not surveyed the online films to determine what proportion is
                        > currently online. Nor have I checked other counties for completeness of
                        > online listings.
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • htcstech
                        To John, I came across this: Borsod-Abaúj-Zemplén Megyei Levéltár, Sátoraljaújhelyi Fióklevéltár [Archive of county Borsod-Abaúj-Zemplén in
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jan 13, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          To John,

                          I came across this:

                          Borsod-Abaúj-Zemplén Megyei Levéltár, Sátoraljaújhelyi Fióklevéltár
                          [Archive of
                          county Borsod-Abaúj-Zemplén in Sátoraljaújhely, HU]
                          www.bazleveltar.hu
                          3980 Sátoraljaújhely, Kossuth tér 5. Tel/fax: +36 47 521-087
                          E-mail: sauhely@...
                          XV./82. Zemplén vármegyei 1857. évi népszámlálási iratok gyűjteménye
                          [Collection of
                          population census from 1857 in county Zemplén]
                          17 villages from county Zemplén, at present 16 in Slovakia, 1 in Hungary

                          You can try to email them if the dates are still valid and ask what
                          resources they have about your town.

                          http://www.bazleveltar.hu/page.php?16

                          Peter M.

                          On 2 January 2013 09:48, John <johnqadam@...> wrote:

                          > **
                          >
                          >
                          > Here's a strange response from LDS on the subject of 1869 Hungarian Census
                          > films that DO NOT appear online. The logic evades me.
                          >
                          > BTW, I used Dubravka, Zemplen Megye as an example in my query.
                          >
                          > ******
                          >
                          > Thank you for contacting FamilySearch regarding records from the 1869
                          > Hungary Census, Zemplen that are recorded in the Catalog, but are not yet
                          > available online.
                          >
                          > We checked the film and discovered that the record custodians have
                          > restricted film number 722688 from online access at this time. You may
                          > order the film to a nearby FamilySearch Center by following the
                          > instructions in this link:
                          > https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Ordering_Microfilm_or_Microfiche.Please be sure to call the FamilySearch Center to assure that they have the
                          > equipment needed to view the film once it comes in.
                          >
                          > We hope this information is helpful in your understanding of our records.
                          > We wish you well in the New Year.
                          >
                          > Sincerely,
                          >
                          > FamilySearch
                          > Research Assistance
                          > support@...
                          >
                          > ----------------------
                          > (CaseID:2889002)
                          > ----------------------
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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