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Re: [S-R] New Member

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  • hwedhlor
    Hi Ron, I have made no serious effort to research any sources on the expulsions, primarily because I have not found that it impacts my Slovak
    Message 1 of 81 , Dec 5, 2012
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      Hi Ron,

      I have made no serious effort to research any sources on the
      expulsions, primarily because I have not found that it
      impacts my Slovak Severnyak/Severnak ancestry. My concern in
      writing was that there might be a movement to ban discussion
      of the expulsions from this mailing list based on
      controversy over their rightness, wrongness, correctness,
      etc. It is my very strong opinion that any researcher
      seeking records of persons who were, or may have been,
      impacted by events such as the expulsions owes it to
      themselves to become familiar with the history of such
      events, and with the locations and nature of records
      detailing them. I appreciate your suggestions concerning
      German record sources. I would not exclude all discussion of
      politics from this forum however. While this forum is
      definitely not an appropriate place for arguing the
      aforesaid rightness or wrongness of the expulsions, I think
      that some basic understanding of the various motivations, or
      possible motivations, and points of view held by those
      expelled versus those doing the expelling, is appropriate in
      that such understanding can give the researcher insight as
      to why certain records might include/exclude information the
      researcher is seeking. The challenge for those of us
      exchanging information on this forum is to maintain
      objectivity while discussing events that were often
      devastating or fatal to those experiencing them, and which
      often fostered very strong familial and cultural prejudices.

      John Zimmerman
      Mesa, AZ


      On 12/5/2012 1:10 AM, Ron wrote:
      >
      > John & Peter,
      >
      > Neither of you has given a hint as to whether or not you
      > have researced the German sources for information or not.
      > If not I would certainly suggest googling for documents
      > they have assembled and published. Quite a few of their
      > websites are in German, but some have English language
      > mirrors.The expellees (vertriebenen) are dominated by the
      > Sudeten, but there are sections for the Zipser and
      > Hauerlander and Pressburger sections, as well as Bukovina
      > and other small areas.
      >
      > I ave seen some maps published on villages enumerating
      > each house and identifying the former owner. Over the
      > decades they have published many books, tomes and white
      > papers on the experiences from the suffering to the
      > individual village stories. I have no need for the detail
      > myself, so I have not investigated it in depth.
      >
      > For anyone not familiar with this, I again suggest Google
      > and key words vertiebene, also preceeded by zipser ,
      > hauerland / hauer, and perhaps slowakei or ungarn. Also
      > Bund der Vertriebenen, Vertreibung, Verband der
      > Landsmannschaften, Bund der Vertriebenen. In Germany there
      > is also the Center against Expulsion, Bund der
      > Vertriebenen that may have information or be able to guide
      > you on new sources. Look on their pages for a British flag
      > or clickable (english) version. Much of their materiál is
      > for sale.
      >
      > They have been meeting in Nurenberg on Easter Monday since
      > the early 1950's, and there should be an exhausting supply
      > of documents there. The Vertriebenen have been a notable
      > political power in West German politics and have carried
      > their share of internal German controversy over the years.
      >
      > I am glad to see the two of you agree with me that
      > genealogy belongs on this forum and politics elsewhere.
      > When you find good sources of information, of course, do
      > share.
      >
      > As for assimilation, in my own family I would like to
      > determine if the southern (Lozin) side were Rusyn and
      > assimilated since the 1800/1806 census. But that is my
      > homework.
      >
      > > > Ron said "try to keep it as close to genealogical as
      > possible. There are many controversial stories to be
      > learned above, and this is NOT the forum to hash these out!"
      >
      > Have you researched any of the resources I outlined above?
      >
      > Ron
      >
      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>, John Zimmerman
      > <Hwedhlor@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Peter,
      > >
      > > Well said! Any events that caused people to change their
      > economic, political or religious status, change their
      > place of residence, or that resulted in their imprisonment
      > or death are very significant from a genealogical point of
      > view. Additionally the reasons for such events often
      > impact what records we seek and where we seek them, and
      > are therefore also of genealogical importance. Ignoring
      > such events and their causes only handicaps our research,
      > and discussions about them definitely belong in this forum!
      > >
      > > John Zimmerman
      > > Mesa, AZ
      > >
      > > Sent from my iPhone 5
      > >
      > > On Dec 4, 2012, at 7:52 PM, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > > Ron said "try to keep it as close to genealogical as
      > possible. There are
      > > > many controversial stories to be learned above, and
      > this is NOT the forum
      > > > to hash these out!"
      > > >
      > > > This IS a genealogic forum and the Benes Decree is
      > vital! It may be a taboo
      > > > subject here, but it's importance for later
      > genealogical work is very
      > > > significant. We tend not to discuss this and almost
      > ignoring those
      > > > of Slovak/Rusyn/Bohemian/Moravian/German/Ukrainian and
      > Galacian ancestry
      > > > (hundreds of thousands) who are now fully assimilated
      > in Hungarian ethnic
      > > > towns and villages along the southern strip. Millions
      > of people were
      > > > displaced throughout the whole of Czechoslovakia
      > because of the Benes
      > > > decree.
      > > >
      > > > 2011 - the darker the green the more 'ethnic' Hungarians:
      > > >
      > http://www.foruminst.sk/images/album/129/2-392-33729-129-orig.jpg
      > That is a
      > > > significant slab of Slovakia where the ethnic border
      > does not match the
      > > > political one. A map of German displacement would be
      > extremely valuable.
      > > >
      > > > I understand fully that political discussions are
      > verboten, but sooner or
      > > > later those Benes Decree lists will become (some are
      > already) public
      > > > domain. The ones I've seen show which families were
      > forced to move.
      > > > Documentary evidence is being collected as we speak
      > showing adoption of
      > > > Czechoslovak citizenship, travelling papers,
      > resettlement addresses and
      > > > other vital information. Being 2012, the parents of
      > those who were evicted
      > > > are passing on, so this knowledge becomes vital. Even
      > some Slovaks were
      > > > deported!
      > > > Here's a memorial plaque of those families that were
      > displaced by the Benes
      > > > Decree:
      > > >
      > http://www.foruminst.sk/en/66/visual_bilingualism/0/research_on_usage_of_hungarian_language_in_southern_slovakia/1/5210/deportees_memorial_plaque
      > > > (note that previous 'face on' images of this were
      > removed by the website to
      > > > protect the identities of those listed)
      > > >
      > > > And it's not just Slovakia, but significant Hungarian,
      > Serbian and Romanian
      > > > displacements as well, all authorized and carried out
      > by their respective
      > > > post WW2 governments.
      > > > In fact it is impossible to do later - post WW1 and
      > WW2 genealogical work
      > > > without mentioning (non-jewish) genocide, atrocities
      > and other forms of
      > > > cleansing in some of these places. Millions were
      > displaced or killed
      > > > including ethnic Slovaks and Rusyns - and as further
      > academic research
      > > > continues past the 50 year moratorium, more of this
      > will come to light.
      > > >
      > > > I agree that we should concentrate on genealogy, but
      > referral to the above
      > > > events should not be dismissed out of hand as a cause
      > for death and
      > > > displacement.
      > > >
      > > > Peter M.
      > > >
      > > > On 5 December 2012 10:49, Ron <amiak27@...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > > try to keep it as close to genealogical as possible.
      > There are many
      > > > > controversial stories to be learned above, and this
      > is NOT the forum to
      > > > > hash these out!
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      >
    • John
      ... Acquiring new memberships at Slovak World is seemingly impossible. Greg Kopchak is not responding.
      Message 81 of 81 , Dec 8, 2012
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        >>> Anyone who wishes to explore THAT topic should do so on Slovak World, please! <<<

        Acquiring new memberships at Slovak World is seemingly impossible. Greg Kopchak is not responding.
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