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Re: [S-R] Re: Place of Birth on Ellis Island Manuscript MORAVKO

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  • htcstech
    MEH! I just paid $35 because ancestry com had further information . I was hoping that the birthplace was written somewhere else.... Well I viewed the
    Message 1 of 16 , Nov 30, 2012
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      MEH! I just paid $35 because ancestry com had 'further information'.
      I was hoping that the birthplace was written somewhere else....
      Well I viewed the transcript and the birthplace was transcribed as LETRO
      KOCENTERKY from the same document I've been staring at for the last 2 days
      - Please tell me that's a Slovak village somewhere!

      In the meantime, I captured a 400% cut of the word(s) and image manipulated
      it with contrast and brightness.
      If you do that, you can see pressure points, fade in and out to see other
      letters etc.
      In the end I had a list of possible variations like:
      Konstrvrta
      Kocenhorta
      Kooshovfalu <- you get this if you experiment with the last few letters
      Kocestorta ~ arfa ~ tarka~ etc etc etc
      Nothing on fallingrain, Cisarik or Fuzzy Gazetteer got close, with or
      without the 'Felso=Letro' prefix.

      So I'm coming to the conclusion that the place disappeared or absorbed and
      there is no surviving record of it.

      What's also strange, is that there is no record of him in Slovakia or
      Hungary - no marriage or birth, no death record, military, or US residency
      at the moment. I'll try and look up his wife, Maria in Joko which
      apparently is Nyitra RC as first port of call.

      Thanks for your help everyone.

      Peter M.

      Transcript follows:

      Name:Sándor MoravkóArrival Date:5 May 1909Birth Date:abt 1878 Birth
      Location:Hungaria, HungaryBirth Location Other:letro kocenterkyAge:31Gender:
      MaleEthnicity/ Nationality: SlovakianPort of Departure:BremenPort of
      Arrival:New York, New YorkShip Name:Friedrich Der Grosse




      On 30 November 2012 17:49, MGMojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > I read it as “Paloncso”.
      > 1907–1913 Palonca = Plavnica
      > 1863–1913 Palocsa = Plavec
      > From these spellings it would appear to be a toss up what “Paloncso”
      > represents. There is a “tie-breaker”, the Doktor family also from
      > “Paloncso” above happen to relatives of mine and they are from Plavnica.
      >
      > From: htcstech
      > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 8:49 PM
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Place of Birth on Ellis Island Manuscript MORAVKO
      >
      >
      > @ JohnqAdam,
      > Can you re-write those village names without accents? I'm not using my
      > normal laptop which has the correct UTF installed.
      > Is that Korlatko?
      >
      > I think I'm getting closer. There are a few Jokos which was his place of
      > residence when he left for Bremen, but his birthplace was different.
      > Using Cisarik I got Oszuszkó and came up with different village names.
      > I'm getting Prietrž and Osuské, so I still can't pinpoint the location.
      > I'm guessing that you are referring to Osuske, which is between Jablonica
      > and Prietrz.
      >
      > Then there is the Dobra Voda older name of Joko which is probably his
      > former residence maybe.
      >
      > @MGMojher - Did you read 'Palonca' from the manifest? Is that how you see
      > it?
      >
      > Thanks John Z! 'Pallocsha' or Palocsa > Plavec - far away from other
      > suggestions, near the Polish border. Did you count down to the 10th entry?
      > It looks like (to me) (L) or (F) Felso (means upper) then Ko --------
      > So Felso Ko is what I get.
      > The K word could be Korlatko but as the scribe overwrote a few letters, I
      > can't make it out.
      >
      > Peter M.
      >
      > On 30 November 2012 06:09, John <mailto:johnqadam%40yahoo.com> wrote:
      >
      > > **
      >
      > >
      > >
      > > >>> Sandor Moravko arrived in May 5 1909 from Joko . . . His birthplace
      > is
      > > listed in the last column on the 2nd page however I
      > >
      > > can't read it properly.<<<
      > >
      > > Oszuszkó (aka Jókő-Oszuszkó és Korlátkő-Oszuszkó), Nyitra,
      > > Hungary
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Sue Martin
      There are two Jokos. One is now Osusko, the other is Dobra Voda. They are not far from each other. Sue ... From: htcstech Sent:
      Message 2 of 16 , Nov 30, 2012
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        There are two Jokos. One is now Osusko, the other is Dobra Voda. They are not far from each other.

        Sue

        -----Original Message-----
        From: "htcstech" <htcstech@...>
        Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 11:49pm
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Place of Birth on Ellis Island Manuscript MORAVKO






        @ JohnqAdam,
        Can you re-write those village names without accents? I'm not using my
        normal laptop which has the correct UTF installed.
        Is that Korlatko?

        I think I'm getting closer. There are a few Jokos which was his place of
        residence when he left for Bremen, but his birthplace was different.
        Using Cisarik I got Oszuszkó and came up with different village names.
        I'm getting Prietrž and Osuské, so I still can't pinpoint the location.
        I'm guessing that you are referring to Osuske, which is between Jablonica
        and Prietrz.

        Then there is the Dobra Voda older name of Joko which is probably his
        former residence maybe.

        @MGMojher - Did you read 'Palonca' from the manifest? Is that how you see
        it?

        Thanks John Z! 'Pallocsha' or Palocsa > Plavec - far away from other
        suggestions, near the Polish border. Did you count down to the 10th entry?
        It looks like (to me) (L) or (F) Felso (means upper) then Ko --------
        So Felso Ko is what I get.
        The K word could be Korlatko but as the scribe overwrote a few letters, I
        can't make it out.

        Peter M.

        On 30 November 2012 06:09, John <[mailto:johnqadam%40yahoo.com] johnqadam@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > >>> Sandor Moravko arrived in May 5 1909 from Joko . . . His birthplace is
        > listed in the last column on the 2nd page however I
        >
        > can't read it properly.<<<
        >
        > Oszuszkó (aka Jókő-Oszuszkó és Korlátkő-Oszuszkó), Nyitra,
        > Hungary
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • John
        ... Can you re-write those village names without accents? I m not using my normal laptop which has the correct UTF installed. Is that Korlatko?
        Message 3 of 16 , Nov 30, 2012
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          >>> JohnqAdam,
          Can you re-write those village names without accents? I'm not using my
          normal laptop which has the correct UTF installed. Is that Korlatko? <<<

          Better yet, I will tell you HOW I got the relevant village names.

          Go to the OLD LDS site and plug in your village name under PLACE SEARCH.

          https://familysearch.org/Eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp

          There you have it!
        • John
          ... The 1910 map at http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/nyitra.jpg is devoid of the necessary detail, south of Szenicz in the yellow area. However, Korlatko
          Message 4 of 16 , Nov 30, 2012
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            >>> So I'm coming to the conclusion that the place disappeared or absorbed and there is no surviving record of it. . . at the moment. I'll try and look up his wife, Maria in Joko which apparently is Nyitra RC . . . Place of Birth on Ellis Island Manuscript MORAVKO I'm getting Prietrž and Osuské, so I still can't pinpoint the location. . . I'm guessing that you are referring to Osuske, which is between Jablonica and Prietrz. <<<

            The 1910 map at http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/nyitra.jpg is devoid of the necessary detail, south of Szenicz in the yellow area. However, Korlatko is shown there. The current Podrobny Auto Atlas shows it as Cerova. Further south along the same road is Prievaly (current name).

            Thus area is very sparsely populated but the facts seem to fit.
          • htcstech
            WooHoo! I found him and place of birth! As Sandor MORAVKO appeared to disappear from records, I kept searching and found an Alexander MORAFKO born at the same
            Message 5 of 16 , Nov 30, 2012
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              WooHoo! I found him and place of birth!

              As Sandor MORAVKO appeared to disappear from records, I kept searching and
              found an Alexander MORAFKO born at the same estimated year in the 1915
              census, confirmed in the 1925 census and then in the 1919 Declaration of
              Intention -Naturalization record - same height, eye colour etc as the ship
              manifest.
              Not only did he register for WW1 draft, but also WW2 as well.
              He had 3 girls, no sons and so the name died with him. His wife was 10
              years younger.

              One of my earlier guesses was Konstrvrta which looked peculiarly like
              Štvrtok or Thursday.
              He considered himself as a Slovak and when asked for his place of birth, he
              first said stvrtok, thought again and changed it to the Hungarian
              Csutortok, but the actual village was called Vagcsutortok at the time.
              So I bet it was overwritten because of this.
              Štvrtok is a small village (pop 350) between Nove Mesto Nad Vahom and
              Trencin along the main route. Nove Mesto Nad Vahom has had a concentration
              of Moravkos over the years.
              It's also a confirmation for me that the alteration of the V to an F is
              common (my last name is Marafko from an earlier line of Moravkos) and
              happened in Serbia, Slovakia and Hungary-Romania.

              Probably was worth the $35 monthly Ancestry charge.

              Peter M.


              On 1 December 2012 00:52, John <johnqadam@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > >>> So I'm coming to the conclusion that the place disappeared or absorbed
              > and there is no surviving record of it. . . at the moment. I'll try and
              > look up his wife, Maria in Joko which apparently is Nyitra RC . . . Place
              > of Birth on Ellis Island Manuscript MORAVKO I'm getting Prietrž and
              > Osuské, so I still can't pinpoint the location. . . I'm guessing that you
              > are referring to Osuske, which is between Jablonica and Prietrz. <<<
              >
              > The 1910 map at http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/nyitra.jpg is devoid
              > of the necessary detail, south of Szenicz in the yellow area. However,
              > Korlatko is shown there. The current Podrobny Auto Atlas shows it as
              > Cerova. Further south along the same road is Prievaly (current name).
              >
              > Thus area is very sparsely populated but the facts seem to fit.
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John
              CONGRATULATIONS! It s just great when you have a major breakthrough. The online RC church records for Stvrtok are found at:
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 1, 2012
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                CONGRATULATIONS! It's just great when you have a major breakthrough.

                The online RC church records for Stvrtok are found at:

                https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/index#uri=https%3A%2F%2Ffamilysearch.org%2Frecords%2Fwaypoint%2FMM17-9M1%3An1105661400%3Fcc%3D1554443

                Slovakia, Church and Synagogue Books, 1592-1910Roman Catholic (Rímsko-katolícká cirkev)Nové Mesto nad Váhom Bosaca

                Baptisms (Krsty) 1691-1740 (Inv. č. 140)Baptisms (Krsty) 1740-1789 (Inv. č. 141)Baptisms (Krsty) 1790-1842 (Inv. č. 142)Baptisms (Krsty) 1852-1884 (Inv. č. 144)Baptisms (Krsty) 1885-1889 (Inv. č. 145)Baptisms (Krsty) 1889-1895 (Inv. č. 145 (pokrač.))Baptisms, marriages, deaths (Krsty, manželstvá, úmrtia) 1843-1851 (Inv. č. 143)Confirmations (Birmovaní) 1788-1788 (Inv. č. 141)Confirmations (Birmovaní) 1800-1800 (Inv. č. 141)Confirmations (Birmovaní) 1829-1829 (Inv. č. 141)Confirmations (Birmovaní) 1841-1841 (Inv. č. 141)Confirmations (Birmovaní) 1855-1855 (Inv. č. 141)Confirmations (Birmovaní) 1860-1860 (Inv. č. 141)Converts (Konvertiti) 1759-1791 (Inv. č. 141)Converts (Konvertiti) 1792-1870 (Inv. č. 142)Deaths (Úmrtia) 1691-1718 (Inv. č. 140)Deaths (Úmrtia) 1722-1740 (Inv. č. 140)Deaths (Úmrtia) 1740-1769 (Inv. č. 141)Deaths (Úmrtia) 1768-1789 (Inv. č. 141 (pokrač.))Deaths (Úmrtia) 1790-1842 (Inv. č. 142)Deaths (Úmrtia) 1852-1879 (Inv. č. 147)Deaths (Úmrtia) 1880-1906 (Inv. č. 149)Deaths (Úmrtia) 1906-1910 (Inv. č. 149 (pokrač.))Marriages (Manželstvá) 1691-1740 (Inv. č. 140)Marriages (Manželstvá) 1740-1790 (Inv. č. 141)Marriages (Manželstvá) 1790-1842 (Inv. č. 146)Marriages (Manželstvá) 1852-1884 (Inv. č. 147)Marriages (Manželstvá) 1885-1896 (Inv. č. 148)
              • htcstech
                Thanks very much for the link Johnqadam! After pouring over the records for Stvrtok, I found nothing. Not giving up, I used the Familysearch database in all
                Message 7 of 16 , Dec 1, 2012
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                  Thanks very much for the link Johnqadam!
                  After pouring over the records for Stvrtok, I found nothing.
                  Not giving up, I used the Familysearch database in all different manners
                  and ways and came up with (eventually) Sandor Moravek in a place called
                  Plavecký Štvrtok.
                  Turns out that even he did not remember his birthdate exactly. It was the
                  18th of Dec 1876 instead of the 8th Dec 1877. The ship manifest was right.
                  Also Plavecký Štvrtok was known as Detrekőcsütörtök which makes a huge
                  amount of sense as it very closely resembles the handwritten place of birth
                  in the ship's manifest in 1909 - Yet by 1919 when he applied for
                  Naturalization, he shortened it to Csutortok and forgot his birthdate.
                  Detrekőcsütörtök is very much closer to hometown as well.

                  He was the illegitimate son of Carolina Moravek from Malaczka, Close to the
                  Austrian border, along the way from Bratislava to Kuty. No wonder he spoke
                  German.

                  For me, the MORAVEK-MORAVKO-MORAFKO transformation answers certain
                  questions that I asked of this group a while ago.
                  Simply, MORAVEK appears to be the Czech (and possibly Slovak version) of
                  the Moravko name. Somehow, his mother called herself or was named Moravek,
                  yet he called himself Moravko. Why? Why not stay with the name Moravek???
                  An answer to this could be that the family name was Moravko (possible from
                  Moravke - a Hungarian diminuitive form for Moravia and the name of a
                  tributary of the Morava river).

                  I had hoped that there was no connection between Moravek and Moravko as far
                  as genealogy is concerned. Now I am not so sure. It makes my work much
                  harder.

                  Peter M.


                  On 1 December 2012 23:58, John <johnqadam@...> wrote:

                  > **
                  >
                  >
                  > CONGRATULATIONS! It's just great when you have a major breakthrough.
                  >
                  > The online RC church records for Stvrtok are found at:
                  >
                  >
                  > https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/index#uri=https%3A%2F%2Ffamilysearch.org%2Frecords%2Fwaypoint%2FMM17-9M1%3An1105661400%3Fcc%3D1554443
                  >
                  > Slovakia, Church and Synagogue Books, 1592-1910Roman Catholic
                  > (Rímsko-katolícká cirkev)Nové Mesto nad Váhom Bosaca
                  >
                  > Baptisms (Krsty) 1691-1740 (Inv. č. 140)Baptisms (Krsty) 1740-1789
                  > (Inv. č. 141)Baptisms (Krsty) 1790-1842 (Inv. č. 142)Baptisms
                  > (Krsty) 1852-1884 (Inv. č. 144)Baptisms (Krsty) 1885-1889 (Inv.
                  > č. 145)Baptisms (Krsty) 1889-1895 (Inv. č. 145
                  > (pokrač.))Baptisms, marriages, deaths (Krsty, manželstvá, úmrtia)
                  > 1843-1851 (Inv. č. 143)Confirmations (Birmovaní) 1788-1788 (Inv.
                  > č. 141)Confirmations (Birmovaní) 1800-1800 (Inv. č.
                  > 141)Confirmations (Birmovaní) 1829-1829 (Inv. č. 141)Confirmations
                  > (Birmovaní) 1841-1841 (Inv. č. 141)Confirmations (Birmovaní) 1855-1855
                  > (Inv. č. 141)Confirmations (Birmovaní) 1860-1860 (Inv. č.
                  > 141)Converts (Konvertiti) 1759-1791 (Inv. č. 141)Converts (Konvertiti)
                  > 1792-1870 (Inv. č. 142)Deaths (Úmrtia) 1691-1718 (Inv. č.
                  > 140)Deaths (Úmrtia) 1722-1740 (Inv. č. 140)Deaths (Úmrtia) 1740-1769
                  > (Inv. č. 141)Deaths (Úmrtia) 1768-1789 (Inv. č. 141
                  > (pokrač.))Deaths (Úmrtia) 1790-1842 (Inv. č. 142)Deaths (Úmrtia)
                  > 1852-1879 (Inv. č. 147)Deaths (Úmrtia) 1880-1906 (Inv. č.
                  > 149)Deaths (Úmrtia) 1906-1910 (Inv. č. 149 (pokrač.))Marriages
                  > (Manželstvá) 1691-1740 (Inv. č. 140)Marriages (Manželstvá) 1740-1790
                  > (Inv. č. 141)Marriages (Manželstvá) 1790-1842 (Inv. č.
                  > 146)Marriages (Manželstvá) 1852-1884 (Inv. č. 147)Marriages
                  > (Manželstvá) 1885-1896 (Inv. č. 148)
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • patskanovo
                  Congradulations Peter! Dennis
                  Message 8 of 16 , Dec 2, 2012
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                    Congradulations Peter!

                    Dennis

                    --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > WooHoo! I found him and place of birth!
                    >
                    > As Sandor MORAVKO appeared to disappear from records, I kept searching and
                    > found an Alexander MORAFKO born at the same estimated year in the 1915
                    > census, confirmed in the 1925 census and then in the 1919 Declaration of
                    > Intention -Naturalization record - same height, eye colour etc as the ship
                    > manifest.
                    > Not only did he register for WW1 draft, but also WW2 as well.
                    > He had 3 girls, no sons and so the name died with him. His wife was 10
                    > years younger.
                    >
                    > One of my earlier guesses was Konstrvrta which looked peculiarly like
                    > Å tvrtok or Thursday.
                    > He considered himself as a Slovak and when asked for his place of birth, he
                    > first said stvrtok, thought again and changed it to the Hungarian
                    > Csutortok, but the actual village was called Vagcsutortok at the time.
                    > So I bet it was overwritten because of this.
                    > Å tvrtok is a small village (pop 350) between Nove Mesto Nad Vahom and
                    > Trencin along the main route. Nove Mesto Nad Vahom has had a concentration
                    > of Moravkos over the years.
                    > It's also a confirmation for me that the alteration of the V to an F is
                    > common (my last name is Marafko from an earlier line of Moravkos) and
                    > happened in Serbia, Slovakia and Hungary-Romania.
                    >
                    > Probably was worth the $35 monthly Ancestry charge.
                    >
                    > Peter M.
                    >
                    >
                    > On 1 December 2012 00:52, John <johnqadam@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > **
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > >>> So I'm coming to the conclusion that the place disappeared or absorbed
                    > > and there is no surviving record of it. . . at the moment. I'll try and
                    > > look up his wife, Maria in Joko which apparently is Nyitra RC . . . Place
                    > > of Birth on Ellis Island Manuscript MORAVKO I'm getting Prietrž and
                    > > Osuské, so I still can't pinpoint the location. . . I'm guessing that you
                    > > are referring to Osuske, which is between Jablonica and Prietrz. <<<
                    > >
                    > > The 1910 map at http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/nyitra.jpg is devoid
                    > > of the necessary detail, south of Szenicz in the yellow area. However,
                    > > Korlatko is shown there. The current Podrobny Auto Atlas shows it as
                    > > Cerova. Further south along the same road is Prievaly (current name).
                    > >
                    > > Thus area is very sparsely populated but the facts seem to fit.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
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