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Re: [S-R] German Mahren

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  • William C. Wormuth
    Peter, You are very welcome.  You are very educated and have gone more deeply, historically, than most.  I am glad you have been successful.  Stay with us
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 4, 2012
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      Peter,

      You are very welcome.  You are very educated and have gone more deeply, historically, than most.  I am glad you have been successful.  Stay with us and keep contributing.

      S Panem Bohem,

      Vilo



      ________________________________
      From: htcstech <htcstech@...>
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 2:34 PM
      Subject: Re: [S-R] German Mahren


       
      Ron and Vilo,
      I was asking your opinions which I value highly and I appreciate all
      comments.
      I have basically finished the genealogy on the name MARAFKO - though I have
      not charted it. this genealogy will be published with a few introductory
      chapters, the first one is in 2nd draft form and deals specifically with
      the name and derivations:

      Morafko (1797 Mostova ~ HidasKurth, 1859 US Emigre Russia, 1880 Tomasikovo)

      Moravfko (1797 Mostova ~ HidasKurth)

      Moraffko (1864 Vizkelet)

      Marafko (1800 Tomasikovo, 1814 HidasKurth, 1878 US Emigre from Hungary of
      German parents)

      Maraffko (1865 Mostova ~ HidasKurth)

      Marofko (1861 Mostova ~ HidasKurth)

      Marofka (Miklos-ne - 1926 triplets in Bekescsaba)

      Maroffko (1913 USA Pennsylvania – stepson to a Polish father)

      Maravko (1861 Szent Mihály Sopron)

      Maravko (1838 Belvárosi, Baja, Bács-Bodrog)

      Moratko (1820 Wadowice Górne, Rzeszów, Poland)

      Maratko (1851 Szent Mihály, Sopron, 1874 Nagynyulfalu, Győr)

      Morovko ~ Moravko (1733 Beczko ~ Beckov, Nové Mesto nad Váhom)

      Mrafkoi <#sdendnote1sym> (1728 Nové Mesto nad Váhom ~ Vág-Ujhely) ~ Mrafko
      (1858 Senica)

      Mraffko (currently in Nové Mesto nad Váhom)

      and that list doesn't include the Polish or Czech variations.

      LDS soundex gave me the MARHEFKA/MARCHEVKA variations. Looking into that
      and the possible ways a family elder called himself strictly relating to
      his place of origin - the German Mahren gave me a hypothesis that MARCHEVKA
      was the German form of 'from Moravia'. The MORAV root is just that,
      possibly based on the Latin MARVANORUM (the very first document that refers
      to Moravia). Yet the MARVA form gives us the Magyar 'MORVA' instead of the
      MORAV root. A subtle distinction where I conclude that the MORAVKO name was
      not given by a Hungarian, but most likely by an Eastern slav official.

      If the hypothesis has any value then the German form gives us:

      Marhevkai <#sdendnote1sym> (1755 Osikov),

      Marhevko (1843 Presov),

      Marchevka (1791 Terna Sabinov),

      Marhefko (1847 Župčany) ,

      Marchevkas,

      Martefka (1845 Velke Saris Presov)

      Marhovka and other variations.

      As far as the Serbian connection goes, there is a MORAV based family
      presumably named after the Morava and Moravke river valleys, and even
      though I can't discount my family's origins as Serbian (quite possible due
      to population movements during Ottoman occupation, Thokoly and Rakozi's
      armies that swept from Transylvania to Nyitra), I'm sticking with the
      Moravian root word as my family folklore states Moravian ancestry.

      I am also very tempted to include the Czech form MORAVEC. As it is the 20th
      most frequent name in the Czech name lexicon, I hesitate to go there unless
      I have some proof of the family link from MORAVKO to MORAVEC.

      Consequently I'm searching names derived from the Turkish tax records of
      1664. I found 1 instance of a similar name, but my notes are not with me
      presently - I think it's MORAVSKO though.

      I've read the work on Greater Moravia being based on the Serb Morava and I
      agree with Vincent Sedlak (along with other historical sources) that the
      greater Empire was based in Nyitra and Devin (Bratislava).

      Peter M.

      On 5 July 2012 03:09, Ron <amiak27@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > Vilo,
      >
      > We disagree, but I am happy for the conversation and thoughts to consider.
      >
      > Yes, mention of the Morava River in Serbia is relevant simply because it
      > is sometimes confused with the Slovak-Czech Morava, and anyone researching
      > or reading about it should be aware, so they can avoid the confusion
      > themselves. There are even historians who have argued that Greater Moravia
      > was centered in Serbia rather than in Czecho-Slovakia.
      >
      > On another point, I do not consider Morava and Mähren and Moravia
      > translations of one another. That would be like saying the Moldau and
      > Vltava are translations, when in reality they are two different names for
      > the same river.
      >
      > Related, perhaps is the example Zuzanna and Zsuzsanna in Slovak and
      > Hungarian, differences in orthography of the different languages. We also
      > must consider how the orthography (spelling) has changed over time as
      > writing standards change.
      >
      > 150 years ago we would have said the Neanderthal skeleton was found in the
      > Neanderthal Valley. Today we say the Neanderthal skeleton was found in the
      > Neandertal Valley, a change in orthography, but not in the proper name.
      >
      > Ron
      >
      >
      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "William C. Wormuth" <senzus@...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Ron,
      > > Your statement, and should not even address the other Morava River in
      > Serbia,
      > > "Die Morava (serbisch à 'à µà »à ¸à ºà ° à Å"à ¾Ã`€à °à ²Ã
      > °/Velika Morava, deutsch
      > > auch Große Morava) ist ein rechter Nebenfluss der Donau und
      > Hauptfluss
      > > Serbiens.".
      > > The Morava mentioned in Slovakia would be Western Slovak border which
      > emptiest into the Danube which would be translated into Austrian German.Â
      > In Eastern Slovakia, the German would come from the early settlements there
      > by Germans.
      >
      > >
      > > I am interested and do not mean to "correct" you.
      > >
      > > Z Bohom,
      > >
      > > Vilo
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: Ron <amiak27@...>
      >
      > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 7:50 AM
      > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Josif Stucka, Stuczka
      > >
      > >
      > > Â
      > > For anyone having trouble reading this or any message with accent marks,
      > go to "View", "Character Encoding" and choose "UTF-8"
      > >
      > > Peter, what readings lead you to believe Marchevka is based on German? I
      > am fluent in German and working on learning Slovak, so I am familiar with
      > how similar some of the words can be in different languages and how easy it
      > is to err in ascribing certain relationships.
      > >
      > > It is handy to check things on www.google.de to get a German
      > perspective, which is often closer to the usual European view, as opposed
      > to our views from the USA. Sometimes there is much more detailed
      > information as well on topics closer to the European heart.
      > >
      > > In this case a quick look at the German Wiki entry yields "Die March
      > (tschechisch und slowakisch Morava, lat. Marus) ist ein linker Nebenfluss
      > der Donau in Mitteleuropa. Sie entwässert etwa drei Viertel des nach ihr
      > benannten Mähren und ist dessen Hauptfluss."
      >
      > >
      > > and that does not even address the other Morava River in Serbia,
      > > "Die Morava (serbisch à 'à µà »à ¸à ºà ° à Å"à ¾Ã`€à °à ²Ã
      > °/Velika Morava, deutsch auch Große Morava) ist ein rechter Nebenfluss
      > der Donau und Hauptfluss Serbiens."
      >
      > >
      > > Also, why would you take it to the German and not to the older Latin?
      > >
      > > Ron
      > >
      > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Vilo, Marchevka [Mahrrkhehv-kah] - From my readings, I'm pretty sure
      > that > this name is based on the German *Mähren* -> mährische for
      > Moravian. So > the name Marchevka and Marhefka are related in this way.
      >
      > > > I'm interested in this name as I think it is related to Morav (Slav)
      > > > versions - eg Moravka - Moravko - Morafko - Marafko and so on.
      > > > Do you think this is a possiblity?
      > > >
      > > > Peter M.
      > > >
      > > > On 4 July 2012 15:22, William C. Wormuth <senzus@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > > **
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Marchevka [Mahrrkhehv-kah].
      > http://telefonny.zoznam.sk/Marchevka/Jakubany/
      > > > >
      > > > > ________________________________
      > > > > From: "stibila@" <stibila@>
      >
      > > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:55 AM
      > > > >
      > > > > Subject: [S-R] Josif Stucka, Stuczka
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Josif, Joseph, was born in Jakubany to Joannes Stucka, Stuczka, and
      > Anna
      > > > > Marchevka, Marhefka. Josif was born in 1929 and is my Mother's
      > brother. He
      > > > > moved to Czechoslovakia, somewhere around 1945 but before 1970. His
      > wife
      > > > > was Maria, last name maybe Verka. They had 4 daughters. He may still
      > be
      > > > > alive but we have no way of communicating with relatives in
      > Jakubany. If
      > > > > any one knows anything about Josif, please post to the message board.
      > > > > Someone did send me 2 Stucka phone numbers in Czech Republic and I
      > called
      > > > > them, but they did not speak English.
      > > > >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • htcstech
      Thanks Vilo for the warm fuzzy. So you side with the notion that Mahren Marhefka is possible or probable? Pete M. ... [Non-text portions of this message have
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 4, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Thanks Vilo for the warm fuzzy. So you side with the notion that Mahren >
        Marhefka is possible or probable?

        Pete M.

        On 5 July 2012 08:50, William C. Wormuth <senzus@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > Peter,
        >
        > You are very welcome. You are very educated and have gone more deeply,
        > historically, than most. I am glad you have been successful. Stay with us
        > and keep contributing.
        >
        > S Panem Bohem,
        >
        > Vilo
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: htcstech <htcstech@...>
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 2:34 PM
        > Subject: Re: [S-R] German Mahren
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Ron and Vilo,
        > I was asking your opinions which I value highly and I appreciate all
        > comments.
        > I have basically finished the genealogy on the name MARAFKO - though I have
        > not charted it. this genealogy will be published with a few introductory
        > chapters, the first one is in 2nd draft form and deals specifically with
        > the name and derivations:
        >
        > Morafko (1797 Mostova ~ HidasKurth, 1859 US Emigre Russia, 1880 Tomasikovo)
        >
        > Moravfko (1797 Mostova ~ HidasKurth)
        >
        > Moraffko (1864 Vizkelet)
        >
        > Marafko (1800 Tomasikovo, 1814 HidasKurth, 1878 US Emigre from Hungary of
        > German parents)
        >
        > Maraffko (1865 Mostova ~ HidasKurth)
        >
        > Marofko (1861 Mostova ~ HidasKurth)
        >
        > Marofka (Miklos-ne - 1926 triplets in Bekescsaba)
        >
        > Maroffko (1913 USA Pennsylvania – stepson to a Polish father)
        >
        > Maravko (1861 Szent Mihály Sopron)
        >
        > Maravko (1838 Belvárosi, Baja, Bács-Bodrog)
        >
        > Moratko (1820 Wadowice Górne, Rzeszów, Poland)
        >
        > Maratko (1851 Szent Mihály, Sopron, 1874 Nagynyulfalu, Győr)
        >
        > Morovko ~ Moravko (1733 Beczko ~ Beckov, Nové Mesto nad Váhom)
        >
        > Mrafkoi <#sdendnote1sym> (1728 Nové Mesto nad Váhom ~ Vág-Ujhely) ~ Mrafko
        >
        > (1858 Senica)
        >
        > Mraffko (currently in Nové Mesto nad Váhom)
        >
        > and that list doesn't include the Polish or Czech variations.
        >
        > LDS soundex gave me the MARHEFKA/MARCHEVKA variations. Looking into that
        > and the possible ways a family elder called himself strictly relating to
        > his place of origin - the German Mahren gave me a hypothesis that MARCHEVKA
        > was the German form of 'from Moravia'. The MORAV root is just that,
        > possibly based on the Latin MARVANORUM (the very first document that refers
        > to Moravia). Yet the MARVA form gives us the Magyar 'MORVA' instead of the
        > MORAV root. A subtle distinction where I conclude that the MORAVKO name was
        > not given by a Hungarian, but most likely by an Eastern slav official.
        >
        > If the hypothesis has any value then the German form gives us:
        >
        > Marhevkai <#sdendnote1sym> (1755 Osikov),
        >
        >
        > Marhevko (1843 Presov),
        >
        > Marchevka (1791 Terna Sabinov),
        >
        > Marhefko (1847 Župčany) ,
        >
        > Marchevkas,
        >
        > Martefka (1845 Velke Saris Presov)
        >
        > Marhovka and other variations.
        >
        > As far as the Serbian connection goes, there is a MORAV based family
        > presumably named after the Morava and Moravke river valleys, and even
        > though I can't discount my family's origins as Serbian (quite possible due
        > to population movements during Ottoman occupation, Thokoly and Rakozi's
        > armies that swept from Transylvania to Nyitra), I'm sticking with the
        > Moravian root word as my family folklore states Moravian ancestry.
        >
        > I am also very tempted to include the Czech form MORAVEC. As it is the 20th
        > most frequent name in the Czech name lexicon, I hesitate to go there unless
        > I have some proof of the family link from MORAVKO to MORAVEC.
        >
        > Consequently I'm searching names derived from the Turkish tax records of
        > 1664. I found 1 instance of a similar name, but my notes are not with me
        > presently - I think it's MORAVSKO though.
        >
        > I've read the work on Greater Moravia being based on the Serb Morava and I
        > agree with Vincent Sedlak (along with other historical sources) that the
        > greater Empire was based in Nyitra and Devin (Bratislava).
        >
        > Peter M.
        >
        > On 5 July 2012 03:09, Ron <amiak27@...> wrote:
        >
        > > **
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > Vilo,
        > >
        > > We disagree, but I am happy for the conversation and thoughts to
        > consider.
        > >
        > > Yes, mention of the Morava River in Serbia is relevant simply because it
        > > is sometimes confused with the Slovak-Czech Morava, and anyone
        > researching
        > > or reading about it should be aware, so they can avoid the confusion
        > > themselves. There are even historians who have argued that Greater
        > Moravia
        > > was centered in Serbia rather than in Czecho-Slovakia.
        > >
        > > On another point, I do not consider Morava and Mähren and Moravia
        > > translations of one another. That would be like saying the Moldau and
        > > Vltava are translations, when in reality they are two different names for
        > > the same river.
        > >
        > > Related, perhaps is the example Zuzanna and Zsuzsanna in Slovak and
        > > Hungarian, differences in orthography of the different languages. We also
        > > must consider how the orthography (spelling) has changed over time as
        > > writing standards change.
        > >
        > > 150 years ago we would have said the Neanderthal skeleton was found in
        > the
        > > Neanderthal Valley. Today we say the Neanderthal skeleton was found in
        > the
        > > Neandertal Valley, a change in orthography, but not in the proper name.
        > >
        > > Ron
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "William C. Wormuth" <senzus@...>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Ron,
        > > > Your statement, and should not even address the other Morava River in
        > > Serbia,
        > > > "Die Morava (serbisch à 'à µà »à ¸à ºà ° à Å"à ¾Ã`€à °à ²Ã
        > > °/Velika Morava, deutsch
        > > > auch Große Morava) ist ein rechter Nebenfluss der Donau und
        > > Hauptfluss
        > > > Serbiens.".
        > > > The Morava mentioned in Slovakia would be Western Slovak border which
        > > emptiest into the Danube which would be translated into Austrian German.Â
        > > In Eastern Slovakia, the German would come from the early settlements
        > there
        > > by Germans.
        > >
        > > >
        > > > I am interested and do not mean to "correct" you.
        > > >
        > > > Z Bohom,
        > > >
        > > > Vilo
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ________________________________
        > > > From: Ron <amiak27@...>
        > >
        > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 7:50 AM
        > > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Josif Stucka, Stuczka
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Â
        > > > For anyone having trouble reading this or any message with accent
        > marks,
        > > go to "View", "Character Encoding" and choose "UTF-8"
        > > >
        > > > Peter, what readings lead you to believe Marchevka is based on German?
        > I
        > > am fluent in German and working on learning Slovak, so I am familiar with
        > > how similar some of the words can be in different languages and how easy
        > it
        > > is to err in ascribing certain relationships.
        > > >
        > > > It is handy to check things on www.google.de to get a German
        > > perspective, which is often closer to the usual European view, as opposed
        > > to our views from the USA. Sometimes there is much more detailed
        > > information as well on topics closer to the European heart.
        > > >
        > > > In this case a quick look at the German Wiki entry yields "Die March
        > > (tschechisch und slowakisch Morava, lat. Marus) ist ein linker Nebenfluss
        > > der Donau in Mitteleuropa. Sie entwässert etwa drei Viertel des nach
        > ihr
        > > benannten Mähren und ist dessen Hauptfluss."
        > >
        > > >
        > > > and that does not even address the other Morava River in Serbia,
        > > > "Die Morava (serbisch à 'à µà »à ¸à ºà ° à Å"à ¾Ã`€à °à ²Ã
        > > °/Velika Morava, deutsch auch Große Morava) ist ein rechter
        > Nebenfluss
        > > der Donau und Hauptfluss Serbiens."
        > >
        > > >
        > > > Also, why would you take it to the German and not to the older Latin?
        > > >
        > > > Ron
        > > >
        > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Vilo, Marchevka [Mahrrkhehv-kah] - From my readings, I'm pretty sure
        > > that > this name is based on the German *Mähren* -> mährische for
        > > Moravian. So > the name Marchevka and Marhefka are related in this way.
        > >
        > > > > I'm interested in this name as I think it is related to Morav (Slav)
        > > > > versions - eg Moravka - Moravko - Morafko - Marafko and so on.
        > > > > Do you think this is a possiblity?
        > > > >
        > > > > Peter M.
        > > > >
        > > > > On 4 July 2012 15:22, William C. Wormuth <senzus@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > > **
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Marchevka [Mahrrkhehv-kah].
        > > http://telefonny.zoznam.sk/Marchevka/Jakubany/
        > > > > >
        > > > > > ________________________________
        > > > > > From: "stibila@" <stibila@>
        > >
        > > > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:55 AM
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Subject: [S-R] Josif Stucka, Stuczka
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Josif, Joseph, was born in Jakubany to Joannes Stucka, Stuczka, and
        > > Anna
        > > > > > Marchevka, Marhefka. Josif was born in 1929 and is my Mother's
        > > brother. He
        > > > > > moved to Czechoslovakia, somewhere around 1945 but before 1970. His
        > > wife
        > > > > > was Maria, last name maybe Verka. They had 4 daughters. He may
        > still
        > > be
        > > > > > alive but we have no way of communicating with relatives in
        > > Jakubany. If
        > > > > > any one knows anything about Josif, please post to the message
        > board.
        > > > > > Someone did send me 2 Stucka phone numbers in Czech Republic and I
        > > called
        > > > > > them, but they did not speak English.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • CurtB
        Peter, Are you giving us a test or pulling our leg? Are you as innocent of modern onomastics, linguistics, and Indo European language studies of the last
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 4, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Peter,
          Are you giving us a test or pulling our leg? Are you as innocent of modern onomastics, linguistics, and Indo European language studies of the last hundred years as you pretend?

          Mahre Mahren in German means Nightmares!

          Mähren, with the umlaut, which is a different vowel altogether, is the place name for Moravia.

          What linguistic principle are you invoking to relate the German word for Moravia to Marhefka? They certainly don't sound alike [though that is not a linguistic principle].

          Curt B.

          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thanks Vilo for the warm fuzzy. So you side with the notion that Mahren >
          > Marhefka is possible or probable?
          >
          > Pete M.
          >
          > On 5 July 2012 08:50, William C. Wormuth <senzus@...> wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > > Peter,
          > >
          > > You are very welcome. You are very educated and have gone more deeply,
          > > historically, than most. I am glad you have been successful. Stay with us
          > > and keep contributing.
          > >
          > > S Panem Bohem,
          > >
          > > Vilo
          > >
          > > ________________________________
          > > From: htcstech <htcstech@...>
          > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 2:34 PM
          > > Subject: Re: [S-R] German Mahren
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Ron and Vilo,
          > > I was asking your opinions which I value highly and I appreciate all
          > > comments.
          > > I have basically finished the genealogy on the name MARAFKO - though I have
          > > not charted it. this genealogy will be published with a few introductory
          > > chapters, the first one is in 2nd draft form and deals specifically with
          > > the name and derivations:
          > >
          > > Morafko (1797 Mostova ~ HidasKurth, 1859 US Emigre Russia, 1880 Tomasikovo)
          > >
          > > Moravfko (1797 Mostova ~ HidasKurth)
          > >
          > > Moraffko (1864 Vizkelet)
          > >
          > > Marafko (1800 Tomasikovo, 1814 HidasKurth, 1878 US Emigre from Hungary of
          > > German parents)
          > >
          > > Maraffko (1865 Mostova ~ HidasKurth)
          > >
          > > Marofko (1861 Mostova ~ HidasKurth)
          > >
          > > Marofka (Miklos-ne - 1926 triplets in Bekescsaba)
          > >
          > > Maroffko (1913 USA Pennsylvania â€" stepson to a Polish father)
          > >
          > > Maravko (1861 Szent Mihály Sopron)
          > >
          > > Maravko (1838 Belvárosi, Baja, Bács-Bodrog)
          > >
          > > Moratko (1820 Wadowice Górne, Rzeszów, Poland)
          > >
          > > Maratko (1851 Szent Mihály, Sopron, 1874 Nagynyulfalu, GyÅ`r)
          > >
          > > Morovko ~ Moravko (1733 Beczko ~ Beckov, Nové Mesto nad Váhom)
          > >
          > > Mrafkoi <#sdendnote1sym> (1728 Nové Mesto nad Váhom ~ Vág-Ujhely) ~ Mrafko
          > >
          > > (1858 Senica)
          > >
          > > Mraffko (currently in Nové Mesto nad Váhom)
          > >
          > > and that list doesn't include the Polish or Czech variations.
          > >
          > > LDS soundex gave me the MARHEFKA/MARCHEVKA variations. Looking into that
          > > and the possible ways a family elder called himself strictly relating to
          > > his place of origin - the German Mahren gave me a hypothesis that MARCHEVKA
          > > was the German form of 'from Moravia'. The MORAV root is just that,
          > > possibly based on the Latin MARVANORUM (the very first document that refers
          > > to Moravia). Yet the MARVA form gives us the Magyar 'MORVA' instead of the
          > > MORAV root. A subtle distinction where I conclude that the MORAVKO name was
          > > not given by a Hungarian, but most likely by an Eastern slav official.
          > >
          > > If the hypothesis has any value then the German form gives us:
          > >
          > > Marhevkai <#sdendnote1sym> (1755 Osikov),
          > >
          > >
          > > Marhevko (1843 Presov),
          > >
          > > Marchevka (1791 Terna Sabinov),
          > >
          > > Marhefko (1847 Župčany) ,
          > >
          > > Marchevkas,
          > >
          > > Martefka (1845 Velke Saris Presov)
          > >
          > > Marhovka and other variations.
          > >
          > > As far as the Serbian connection goes, there is a MORAV based family
          > > presumably named after the Morava and Moravke river valleys, and even
          > > though I can't discount my family's origins as Serbian (quite possible due
          > > to population movements during Ottoman occupation, Thokoly and Rakozi's
          > > armies that swept from Transylvania to Nyitra), I'm sticking with the
          > > Moravian root word as my family folklore states Moravian ancestry.
          > >
          > > I am also very tempted to include the Czech form MORAVEC. As it is the 20th
          > > most frequent name in the Czech name lexicon, I hesitate to go there unless
          > > I have some proof of the family link from MORAVKO to MORAVEC.
          > >
          > > Consequently I'm searching names derived from the Turkish tax records of
          > > 1664. I found 1 instance of a similar name, but my notes are not with me
          > > presently - I think it's MORAVSKO though.
          > >
          > > I've read the work on Greater Moravia being based on the Serb Morava and I
          > > agree with Vincent Sedlak (along with other historical sources) that the
          > > greater Empire was based in Nyitra and Devin (Bratislava).
          > >
          > > Peter M.
          > >
          > > On 5 July 2012 03:09, Ron <amiak27@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > > **
          > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Vilo,
          > > >
          > > > We disagree, but I am happy for the conversation and thoughts to
          > > consider.
          > > >
          > > > Yes, mention of the Morava River in Serbia is relevant simply because it
          > > > is sometimes confused with the Slovak-Czech Morava, and anyone
          > > researching
          > > > or reading about it should be aware, so they can avoid the confusion
          > > > themselves. There are even historians who have argued that Greater
          > > Moravia
          > > > was centered in Serbia rather than in Czecho-Slovakia.
          > > >
          > > > On another point, I do not consider Morava and Mähren and Moravia
          > > > translations of one another. That would be like saying the Moldau and
          > > > Vltava are translations, when in reality they are two different names for
          > > > the same river.
          > > >
          > > > Related, perhaps is the example Zuzanna and Zsuzsanna in Slovak and
          > > > Hungarian, differences in orthography of the different languages. We also
          > > > must consider how the orthography (spelling) has changed over time as
          > > > writing standards change.
          > > >
          > > > 150 years ago we would have said the Neanderthal skeleton was found in
          > > the
          > > > Neanderthal Valley. Today we say the Neanderthal skeleton was found in
          > > the
          > > > Neandertal Valley, a change in orthography, but not in the proper name.
          > > >
          > > > Ron
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "William C. Wormuth" <senzus@>
          > > > wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Ron,
          > > > > Your statement, and should not even address the other Morava River in
          > > > Serbia,
          > > > > "Die Morava (serbisch à 'à µà »à ¸à ºà ° à Å"à ¾Ã`€à °à ²Ã
          > > > °/Velika Morava, deutsch
          > > > > auch GroÃÆ'Ÿe Morava) ist ein rechter Nebenfluss der Donau und
          > > > Hauptfluss
          > > > > Serbiens.".
          > > > > The Morava mentioned in Slovakia would be Western Slovak border which
          > > > emptiest into the Danube which would be translated into Austrian German.Â
          > > > In Eastern Slovakia, the German would come from the early settlements
          > > there
          > > > by Germans.
          > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > I am interested and do not mean to "correct" you.
          > > > >
          > > > > Z Bohom,
          > > > >
          > > > > Vilo
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > ________________________________
          > > > > From: Ron <amiak27@>
          > > >
          > > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 7:50 AM
          > > > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Josif Stucka, Stuczka
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Â
          > > > > For anyone having trouble reading this or any message with accent
          > > marks,
          > > > go to "View", "Character Encoding" and choose "UTF-8"
          > > > >
          > > > > Peter, what readings lead you to believe Marchevka is based on German?
          > > I
          > > > am fluent in German and working on learning Slovak, so I am familiar with
          > > > how similar some of the words can be in different languages and how easy
          > > it
          > > > is to err in ascribing certain relationships.
          > > > >
          > > > > It is handy to check things on www.google.de to get a German
          > > > perspective, which is often closer to the usual European view, as opposed
          > > > to our views from the USA. Sometimes there is much more detailed
          > > > information as well on topics closer to the European heart.
          > > > >
          > > > > In this case a quick look at the German Wiki entry yields "Die March
          > > > (tschechisch und slowakisch Morava, lat. Marus) ist ein linker Nebenfluss
          > > > der Donau in Mitteleuropa. Sie entwÃÆ'¤ssert etwa drei Viertel des nach
          > > ihr
          > > > benannten MÃÆ'¤hren und ist dessen Hauptfluss."
          > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > and that does not even address the other Morava River in Serbia,
          > > > > "Die Morava (serbisch à 'à µà »à ¸à ºà ° à Å"à ¾Ã`€à °à ²Ã
          > > > °/Velika Morava, deutsch auch GroÃÆ'Ÿe Morava) ist ein rechter
          > > Nebenfluss
          > > > der Donau und Hauptfluss Serbiens."
          > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Also, why would you take it to the German and not to the older Latin?
          > > > >
          > > > > Ron
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Vilo, Marchevka [Mahrrkhehv-kah] - From my readings, I'm pretty sure
          > > > that > this name is based on the German *MÃÆ'¤hren* -> mÃÆ'¤hrische for
          > > > Moravian. So > the name Marchevka and Marhefka are related in this way.
          > > >
          > > > > > I'm interested in this name as I think it is related to Morav (Slav)
          > > > > > versions - eg Moravka - Moravko - Morafko - Marafko and so on.
          > > > > > Do you think this is a possiblity?
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Peter M.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > On 4 July 2012 15:22, William C. Wormuth <senzus@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > > **
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Marchevka [Mahrrkhehv-kah].
          > > > http://telefonny.zoznam.sk/Marchevka/Jakubany/
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > ________________________________
          > > > > > > From: "stibila@" <stibila@>
          > > >
          > > > > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:55 AM
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Subject: [S-R] Josif Stucka, Stuczka
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Josif, Joseph, was born in Jakubany to Joannes Stucka, Stuczka, and
          > > > Anna
          > > > > > > Marchevka, Marhefka. Josif was born in 1929 and is my Mother's
          > > > brother. He
          > > > > > > moved to Czechoslovakia, somewhere around 1945 but before 1970. His
          > > > wife
          > > > > > > was Maria, last name maybe Verka. They had 4 daughters. He may
          > > still
          > > > be
          > > > > > > alive but we have no way of communicating with relatives in
          > > > Jakubany. If
          > > > > > > any one knows anything about Josif, please post to the message
          > > board.
          > > > > > > Someone did send me 2 Stucka phone numbers in Czech Republic and I
          > > > called
          > > > > > > them, but they did not speak English.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • htcstech
          Curt!, Sometimes you make me laugh. I m making it up as I go along because I have no other methodology yet. That s the reason for my tentative original post.
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 5, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Curt!,
            Sometimes you make me laugh.

            I'm making it up as I go along because I have no other methodology yet.
            That's the reason for my tentative original post.
            It's my laziness that I didn't put in the umlaut as I've recently had to
            remove the hu and sk keyboard settings as it interfered with a program that
            automatically installed Slovak menus when I needed English. Cleaning my
            keyboard also screwed up my left Shift and prevented some letters
            connecting. I apologize for not editing properly. In case you hadn't
            noticed, I inadvertently left a superscript that referred to a footnote.

            To be specific, I'm almost certain that Moravko was first recorded by an
            Eastern Slav or Russian official who had the authority to do so, not
            Bohemian, German, Polish or Hungarian; and means 'Moravian' or 'from
            Moravia'. A Hungarian would of named the person Morvai (although I have
            seen a news wire where the Hungarian news service called Moravia
            'Moravka'), a Bohemian Moravec/k and a Pole Moravski or Morawski.

            Now knowing that the German Mähren means Moravia, I wondered if a German
            official would of named a Moravian - Mähren or Mährische which may point to
            the origin of Marhevka. It's as simple as that. I take Ron's point that it
            could be Latin based. If so, then I'll be interested in what the name
            means.
            If it doesn't mean 'Moravian' then maybe someone out there can provide an
            answer. I can keep guessing... maybe after Marha (Magyar for cow?).

            Regards

            Peter M.

            To be clear, I am not trying to equate the Moravko name with any other. I'm
            just interested in name derivations presently.

            On 5 July 2012 15:09, CurtB <curt67boc@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > Peter,
            > Are you giving us a test or pulling our leg? Are you as innocent of modern
            > onomastics, linguistics, and Indo European language studies ***Magyar is
            > not an Indo European language*** of the last hundred years as you pretend?
            >
            > Mahre Mahren in German means Nightmares!
            >
            > Mähren, with the umlaut, which is a different vowel altogether, is the
            > place name for Moravia.
            >
            > What linguistic principle are you invoking to relate the German word for
            > Moravia to Marhefka? They certainly don't sound alike [though that is not a
            > linguistic principle].
            >
            > Curt B.
            >
            >
            > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Thanks Vilo for the warm fuzzy. So you side with the notion that Mahren >
            > > Marhefka is possible or probable?
            > >
            > > Pete M.
            > >
            > > On 5 July 2012 08:50, William C. Wormuth <senzus@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > > **
            >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Peter,
            > > >
            > > > You are very welcome. You are very educated and have gone more deeply,
            > > > historically, than most. I am glad you have been successful. Stay with
            > us
            > > > and keep contributing.
            > > >
            > > > S Panem Bohem,
            > > >
            > > > Vilo
            > > >
            > > > ________________________________
            > > > From: htcstech <htcstech@...>
            >
            > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 2:34 PM
            > > > Subject: Re: [S-R] German Mahren
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Ron and Vilo,
            > > > I was asking your opinions which I value highly and I appreciate all
            > > > comments.
            > > > I have basically finished the genealogy on the name MARAFKO - though I
            > have
            > > > not charted it. this genealogy will be published with a few
            > introductory
            > > > chapters, the first one is in 2nd draft form and deals specifically
            > with
            > > > the name and derivations:
            > > >
            > > > Morafko (1797 Mostova ~ HidasKurth, 1859 US Emigre Russia, 1880
            > Tomasikovo)
            > > >
            > > > Moravfko (1797 Mostova ~ HidasKurth)
            > > >
            > > > Moraffko (1864 Vizkelet)
            > > >
            > > > Marafko (1800 Tomasikovo, 1814 HidasKurth, 1878 US Emigre from Hungary
            > of
            > > > German parents)
            > > >
            > > > Maraffko (1865 Mostova ~ HidasKurth)
            > > >
            > > > Marofko (1861 Mostova ~ HidasKurth)
            > > >
            > > > Marofka (Miklos-ne - 1926 triplets in Bekescsaba)
            > > >
            > > > Maroffko (1913 USA Pennsylvania â€" stepson to a Polish father)
            > > >
            > > > Maravko (1861 Szent Mihály Sopron)
            > > >
            > > > Maravko (1838 Belvárosi, Baja, Bács-Bodrog)
            > > >
            > > > Moratko (1820 Wadowice Górne, Rzeszów, Poland)
            > > >
            > > > Maratko (1851 Szent Mihály, Sopron, 1874 Nagynyulfalu, GyÅ`r)
            > > >
            > > > Morovko ~ Moravko (1733 Beczko ~ Beckov, Nové Mesto nad Váhom)
            > > >
            > > > Mrafkoi <#sdendnote1sym> (1728 Nové Mesto nad Váhom ~ Vág-Ujhely) ~
            > Mrafko
            > > >
            > > > (1858 Senica)
            > > >
            > > > Mraffko (currently in Nové Mesto nad Váhom)
            >
            > > >
            > > > and that list doesn't include the Polish or Czech variations.
            > > >
            > > > LDS soundex gave me the MARHEFKA/MARCHEVKA variations. Looking into
            > that
            > > > and the possible ways a family elder called himself strictly relating
            > to
            > > > his place of origin - the German Mahren gave me a hypothesis that
            > MARCHEVKA
            > > > was the German form of 'from Moravia'. The MORAV root is just that,
            > > > possibly based on the Latin MARVANORUM (the very first document that
            > refers
            > > > to Moravia). Yet the MARVA form gives us the Magyar 'MORVA' instead of
            > the
            > > > MORAV root. A subtle distinction where I conclude that the MORAVKO
            > name was
            > > > not given by a Hungarian, but most likely by an Eastern slav official.
            > > >
            > > > If the hypothesis has any value then the German form gives us:
            > > >
            > > > Marhevkai <#sdendnote1sym> (1755 Osikov),
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Marhevko (1843 Presov),
            > > >
            > > > Marchevka (1791 Terna Sabinov),
            > > >
            > > > Marhefko (1847 ŽupÄ any) ,
            >
            > > >
            > > > Marchevkas,
            > > >
            > > > Martefka (1845 Velke Saris Presov)
            > > >
            > > > Marhovka and other variations.
            > > >
            > > > As far as the Serbian connection goes, there is a MORAV based family
            > > > presumably named after the Morava and Moravke river valleys, and even
            > > > though I can't discount my family's origins as Serbian (quite possible
            > due
            > > > to population movements during Ottoman occupation, Thokoly and Rakozi's
            > > > armies that swept from Transylvania to Nyitra), I'm sticking with the
            > > > Moravian root word as my family folklore states Moravian ancestry.
            > > >
            > > > I am also very tempted to include the Czech form MORAVEC. As it is the
            > 20th
            > > > most frequent name in the Czech name lexicon, I hesitate to go there
            > unless
            > > > I have some proof of the family link from MORAVKO to MORAVEC.
            > > >
            > > > Consequently I'm searching names derived from the Turkish tax records
            > of
            > > > 1664. I found 1 instance of a similar name, but my notes are not with
            > me
            > > > presently - I think it's MORAVSKO though.
            > > >
            > > > I've read the work on Greater Moravia being based on the Serb Morava
            > and I
            > > > agree with Vincent Sedlak (along with other historical sources) that
            > the
            > > > greater Empire was based in Nyitra and Devin (Bratislava).
            > > >
            > > > Peter M.
            > > >
            > > > On 5 July 2012 03:09, Ron <amiak27@...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > > **
            > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Vilo,
            > > > >
            > > > > We disagree, but I am happy for the conversation and thoughts to
            > > > consider.
            > > > >
            > > > > Yes, mention of the Morava River in Serbia is relevant simply
            > because it
            > > > > is sometimes confused with the Slovak-Czech Morava, and anyone
            > > > researching
            > > > > or reading about it should be aware, so they can avoid the confusion
            > > > > themselves. There are even historians who have argued that Greater
            > > > Moravia
            > > > > was centered in Serbia rather than in Czecho-Slovakia.
            > > > >
            > > > > On another point, I do not consider Morava and Mähren and Moravia
            >
            > > > > translations of one another. That would be like saying the Moldau and
            > > > > Vltava are translations, when in reality they are two different
            > names for
            > > > > the same river.
            > > > >
            > > > > Related, perhaps is the example Zuzanna and Zsuzsanna in Slovak and
            > > > > Hungarian, differences in orthography of the different languages. We
            > also
            > > > > must consider how the orthography (spelling) has changed over time as
            > > > > writing standards change.
            > > > >
            > > > > 150 years ago we would have said the Neanderthal skeleton was found
            > in
            > > > the
            > > > > Neanderthal Valley. Today we say the Neanderthal skeleton was found
            > in
            > > > the
            > > > > Neandertal Valley, a change in orthography, but not in the proper
            > name.
            > > > >
            > > > > Ron
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "William C. Wormuth" <senzus@>
            > > > > wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Ron,
            > > > > > Your statement, and should not even address the other Morava River
            > in
            > > > > Serbia,
            > > > > > "Die Morava (serbisch à 'à µà »à ¸à ºà ° Ã
            > Å"à ¾Ã`€à °à ²Ã
            >
            > > > > °/Velika Morava, deutsch
            > > > > > auch GroÃÆ'Ÿe Morava) ist ein rechter Nebenfluss der Donau und
            >
            > > > > Hauptfluss
            > > > > > Serbiens.".
            > > > > > The Morava mentioned in Slovakia would be Western Slovak border
            > which
            > > > > emptiest into the Danube which would be translated into Austrian
            > German.Â
            >
            > > > > In Eastern Slovakia, the German would come from the early settlements
            > > > there
            > > > > by Germans.
            > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I am interested and do not mean to "correct" you.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Z Bohom,
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Vilo
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > ________________________________
            > > > > > From: Ron <amiak27@>
            > > > >
            > > > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 7:50 AM
            > > > > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Josif Stucka, Stuczka
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Â
            >
            > > > > > For anyone having trouble reading this or any message with accent
            > > > marks,
            > > > > go to "View", "Character Encoding" and choose "UTF-8"
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Peter, what readings lead you to believe Marchevka is based on
            > German?
            > > > I
            > > > > am fluent in German and working on learning Slovak, so I am familiar
            > with
            > > > > how similar some of the words can be in different languages and how
            > easy
            > > > it
            > > > > is to err in ascribing certain relationships.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > It is handy to check things on www.google.de to get a German
            > > > > perspective, which is often closer to the usual European view, as
            > opposed
            > > > > to our views from the USA. Sometimes there is much more detailed
            > > > > information as well on topics closer to the European heart.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > In this case a quick look at the German Wiki entry yields "Die
            > March
            > > > > (tschechisch und slowakisch Morava, lat. Marus) ist ein linker
            > Nebenfluss
            > > > > der Donau in Mitteleuropa. Sie entwÃÆ'¤ssert etwa drei Viertel
            > des nach
            > > > ihr
            > > > > benannten MÃÆ'¤hren und ist dessen Hauptfluss."
            >
            > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > and that does not even address the other Morava River in Serbia,
            > > > > > "Die Morava (serbisch à 'à µà »à ¸à ºà ° Ã
            > Å"à ¾Ã`€à °à ²Ã
            > > > > °/Velika Morava, deutsch auch GroÃÆ'Ÿe Morava) ist ein rechter
            >
            > > > Nebenfluss
            > > > > der Donau und Hauptfluss Serbiens."
            > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Also, why would you take it to the German and not to the older
            > Latin?
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Ron
            > > > > >
            > > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@> wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Vilo, Marchevka [Mahrrkhehv-kah] - From my readings, I'm pretty
            > sure
            > > > > that > this name is based on the German *MÃÆ'¤hren* ->
            > mÃÆ'¤hrische for
            >
            > > > > Moravian. So > the name Marchevka and Marhefka are related in this
            > way.
            > > > >
            > > > > > > I'm interested in this name as I think it is related to Morav
            > (Slav)
            > > > > > > versions - eg Moravka - Moravko - Morafko - Marafko and so on.
            > > > > > > Do you think this is a possiblity?
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Peter M.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > On 4 July 2012 15:22, William C. Wormuth <senzus@> wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > **
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Marchevka [Mahrrkhehv-kah].
            > > > > http://telefonny.zoznam.sk/Marchevka/Jakubany/
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > ________________________________
            > > > > > > > From: "stibila@" <stibila@>
            > > > >
            > > > > > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:55 AM
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Subject: [S-R] Josif Stucka, Stuczka
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Josif, Joseph, was born in Jakubany to Joannes Stucka,
            > Stuczka, and
            > > > > Anna
            > > > > > > > Marchevka, Marhefka. Josif was born in 1929 and is my Mother's
            > > > > brother. He
            > > > > > > > moved to Czechoslovakia, somewhere around 1945 but before
            > 1970. His
            > > > > wife
            > > > > > > > was Maria, last name maybe Verka. They had 4 daughters. He may
            > > > still
            > > > > be
            > > > > > > > alive but we have no way of communicating with relatives in
            > > > > Jakubany. If
            > > > > > > > any one knows anything about Josif, please post to the message
            > > > board.
            > > > > > > > Someone did send me 2 Stucka phone numbers in Czech Republic
            > and I
            > > > > called
            > > > > > > > them, but they did not speak English.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ron
            Peter, I am a bit puzzled over your problem with changing the language on the keyboard, as the Microsoft settings between EN, SK and DE have never caused me
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 5, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Peter, I am a bit puzzled over your problem with changing the language on the keyboard, as the Microsoft settings between EN, SK and DE have never caused me any problems with other programs. Are you using some other keyboard switching program? But that is a side issue we don't need to address on this forum.

              More relevant is one point you raise on the German:

              Were we commonly say "German" in dealing with Germanic writings, in reality the administration would have been in Austrian-German, and documents written by locals could have been in any of a dozen or so dialects of German, some extremely different from one another. There were "German" immigrants from Silesia, Baden Wurttemberg, Bavaria, Luxembourg and the Netherlands and many other of the "German" countries at the time. So local documents could pose a particular problem.

              Conventionally,
              Mähren = Moravia
              Mährisch = Moravian, as we would say _of Moravia_
              Mährer = Moravian _person_ as in _New Yorker_

              More cautions about the umlaut: The conventional way of expressing the umlaut a _ä_ is to use an _ae_ , resulting in _Maehren_.
              And the plural of Haus is Häuser. (House and Houses)
              _Kann man sich mehrer Häuser kaufen?_

              In this posting I am using the underline _ in place of quotation marks, as it reads easier on a computer screen.

              Have you read Messages 33616 and 33617 on Slovak World? Vilo attached his question on _German Mahren_ to another thread, so they could be missed if you searched by title.

              Ron
              PS. Personally, I feel you are deep into speculation. I would not feel free to draw the conclusions that you have - yet. But it is interesting.


              --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:

              > Now knowing that the German Mähren means Moravia, I wondered if a German > official would of named a Moravian - Mähren or Mährische which may point to > the origin of Marhevka. It's as simple as that. I can keep guessing... maybe after Marha (Magyar for cow?).
              >
              > Regards
              >
              > Peter M.
              >
              > To be clear, I am not trying to equate the Moravko name with any other. I'm > just interested in name derivations presently.
              >
            • Ladislav Rosival
              Just an other point of view. Morava is not only todays Moravia. The word „morava“ has also its meaning „wet place with gras“, it is not more used in
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 5, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Just an other point of view. Morava is not only todays Moravia. The word „morava“ has also its meaning „wet place with gras“, it is not more used in everyday speach.



                http://slovniky.korpus.sk/?w=morava <http://slovniky.korpus.sk/?w=morava&c=w883> &c=w883



                Ladislav







                From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of htcstech
                Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 8:34 PM
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [S-R] German Mahren





                Ron and Vilo,
                I was asking your opinions which I value highly and I appreciate all
                comments.
                I have basically finished the genealogy on the name MARAFKO - though I have
                not charted it. this genealogy will be published with a few introductory
                chapters, the first one is in 2nd draft form and deals specifically with
                the name and derivations:

                Morafko (1797 Mostova ~ HidasKurth, 1859 US Emigre Russia, 1880 Tomasikovo)

                Moravfko (1797 Mostova ~ HidasKurth)

                Moraffko (1864 Vizkelet)

                Marafko (1800 Tomasikovo, 1814 HidasKurth, 1878 US Emigre from Hungary of
                German parents)

                Maraffko (1865 Mostova ~ HidasKurth)

                Marofko (1861 Mostova ~ HidasKurth)

                Marofka (Miklos-ne - 1926 triplets in Bekescsaba)

                Maroffko (1913 USA Pennsylvania – stepson to a Polish father)

                Maravko (1861 Szent Mihály Sopron)

                Maravko (1838 Belvárosi, Baja, Bács-Bodrog)

                Moratko (1820 Wadowice Górne, Rzeszów, Poland)

                Maratko (1851 Szent Mihály, Sopron, 1874 Nagynyulfalu, Győr)

                Morovko ~ Moravko (1733 Beczko ~ Beckov, Nové Mesto nad Váhom)

                Mrafkoi <#sdendnote1sym> (1728 Nové Mesto nad Váhom ~ Vág-Ujhely) ~ Mrafko
                (1858 Senica)

                Mraffko (currently in Nové Mesto nad Váhom)

                and that list doesn't include the Polish or Czech variations.

                LDS soundex gave me the MARHEFKA/MARCHEVKA variations. Looking into that
                and the possible ways a family elder called himself strictly relating to
                his place of origin - the German Mahren gave me a hypothesis that MARCHEVKA
                was the German form of 'from Moravia'. The MORAV root is just that,
                possibly based on the Latin MARVANORUM (the very first document that refers
                to Moravia). Yet the MARVA form gives us the Magyar 'MORVA' instead of the
                MORAV root. A subtle distinction where I conclude that the MORAVKO name was
                not given by a Hungarian, but most likely by an Eastern slav official.

                If the hypothesis has any value then the German form gives us:

                Marhevkai <#sdendnote1sym> (1755 Osikov),

                Marhevko (1843 Presov),

                Marchevka (1791 Terna Sabinov),

                Marhefko (1847 Župčany) ,

                Marchevkas,

                Martefka (1845 Velke Saris Presov)

                Marhovka and other variations.

                As far as the Serbian connection goes, there is a MORAV based family
                presumably named after the Morava and Moravke river valleys, and even
                though I can't discount my family's origins as Serbian (quite possible due
                to population movements during Ottoman occupation, Thokoly and Rakozi's
                armies that swept from Transylvania to Nyitra), I'm sticking with the
                Moravian root word as my family folklore states Moravian ancestry.

                I am also very tempted to include the Czech form MORAVEC. As it is the 20th
                most frequent name in the Czech name lexicon, I hesitate to go there unless
                I have some proof of the family link from MORAVKO to MORAVEC.

                Consequently I'm searching names derived from the Turkish tax records of
                1664. I found 1 instance of a similar name, but my notes are not with me
                presently - I think it's MORAVSKO though.

                I've read the work on Greater Moravia being based on the Serb Morava and I
                agree with Vincent Sedlak (along with other historical sources) that the
                greater Empire was based in Nyitra and Devin (Bratislava).

                Peter M.

                On 5 July 2012 03:09, Ron <amiak27@... <mailto:amiak27%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

                > **
                >
                >
                > Vilo,
                >
                > We disagree, but I am happy for the conversation and thoughts to consider.
                >
                > Yes, mention of the Morava River in Serbia is relevant simply because it
                > is sometimes confused with the Slovak-Czech Morava, and anyone researching
                > or reading about it should be aware, so they can avoid the confusion
                > themselves. There are even historians who have argued that Greater Moravia
                > was centered in Serbia rather than in Czecho-Slovakia.
                >
                > On another point, I do not consider Morava and Mähren and Moravia
                > translations of one another. That would be like saying the Moldau and
                > Vltava are translations, when in reality they are two different names for
                > the same river.
                >
                > Related, perhaps is the example Zuzanna and Zsuzsanna in Slovak and
                > Hungarian, differences in orthography of the different languages. We also
                > must consider how the orthography (spelling) has changed over time as
                > writing standards change.
                >
                > 150 years ago we would have said the Neanderthal skeleton was found in the
                > Neanderthal Valley. Today we say the Neanderthal skeleton was found in the
                > Neandertal Valley, a change in orthography, but not in the proper name.
                >
                > Ron
                >
                >
                > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> , "William C. Wormuth" <senzus@...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Ron,
                > > Your statement, and should not even address the other Morava River in
                > Serbia,
                > > "Die Morava (serbisch à 'à µà »à ¸à ºà ° à Å"à ¾Ã`€à °à ²Ã
                > °/Velika Morava, deutsch
                > > auch Große Morava) ist ein rechter Nebenfluss der Donau und
                > Hauptfluss
                > > Serbiens.".
                > > The Morava mentioned in Slovakia would be Western Slovak border which
                > emptiest into the Danube which would be translated into Austrian German.Â
                > In Eastern Slovakia, the German would come from the early settlements there
                > by Germans.
                >
                > >
                > > I am interested and do not mean to "correct" you.
                > >
                > > Z Bohom,
                > >
                > > Vilo
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ________________________________
                > > From: Ron <amiak27@...>
                >
                > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 7:50 AM
                > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Josif Stucka, Stuczka
                > >
                > >
                > > Â
                > > For anyone having trouble reading this or any message with accent marks,
                > go to "View", "Character Encoding" and choose "UTF-8"
                > >
                > > Peter, what readings lead you to believe Marchevka is based on German? I
                > am fluent in German and working on learning Slovak, so I am familiar with
                > how similar some of the words can be in different languages and how easy it
                > is to err in ascribing certain relationships.
                > >
                > > It is handy to check things on www.google.de to get a German
                > perspective, which is often closer to the usual European view, as opposed
                > to our views from the USA. Sometimes there is much more detailed
                > information as well on topics closer to the European heart.
                > >
                > > In this case a quick look at the German Wiki entry yields "Die March
                > (tschechisch und slowakisch Morava, lat. Marus) ist ein linker Nebenfluss
                > der Donau in Mitteleuropa. Sie entwässert etwa drei Viertel des nach ihr
                > benannten Mähren und ist dessen Hauptfluss."
                >
                > >
                > > and that does not even address the other Morava River in Serbia,
                > > "Die Morava (serbisch à 'à µà »à ¸à ºà ° à Å"à ¾Ã`€à °à ²Ã
                > °/Velika Morava, deutsch auch Große Morava) ist ein rechter Nebenfluss
                > der Donau und Hauptfluss Serbiens."
                >
                > >
                > > Also, why would you take it to the German and not to the older Latin?
                > >
                > > Ron
                > >
                > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> , htcstech <htcstech@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Vilo, Marchevka [Mahrrkhehv-kah] - From my readings, I'm pretty sure
                > that > this name is based on the German *Mähren* -> mährische for
                > Moravian. So > the name Marchevka and Marhefka are related in this way.
                >
                > > > I'm interested in this name as I think it is related to Morav (Slav)
                > > > versions - eg Moravka - Moravko - Morafko - Marafko and so on.
                > > > Do you think this is a possiblity?
                > > >
                > > > Peter M.
                > > >
                > > > On 4 July 2012 15:22, William C. Wormuth <senzus@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > > **
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Marchevka [Mahrrkhehv-kah].
                > http://telefonny.zoznam.sk/Marchevka/Jakubany/
                > > > >
                > > > > ________________________________
                > > > > From: "stibila@" <stibila@>
                >
                > > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:55 AM
                > > > >
                > > > > Subject: [S-R] Josif Stucka, Stuczka
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Josif, Joseph, was born in Jakubany to Joannes Stucka, Stuczka, and
                > Anna
                > > > > Marchevka, Marhefka. Josif was born in 1929 and is my Mother's
                > brother. He
                > > > > moved to Czechoslovakia, somewhere around 1945 but before 1970. His
                > wife
                > > > > was Maria, last name maybe Verka. They had 4 daughters. He may still
                > be
                > > > > alive but we have no way of communicating with relatives in
                > Jakubany. If
                > > > > any one knows anything about Josif, please post to the message board.
                > > > > Someone did send me 2 Stucka phone numbers in Czech Republic and I
                > called
                > > > > them, but they did not speak English.
                > > > >
                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • William C. Wormuth
                My Grandfather used to say, he spoke, read and wrote both high and low German ________________________________ From: Ron To:
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 5, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  My Grandfather used to say, he spoke, read and wrote both "high" and "low" German



                  ________________________________
                  From: Ron <amiak27@...>
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, July 5, 2012 10:42 AM
                  Subject: Re: [S-R] German Mahren


                   
                  Peter, I am a bit puzzled over your problem with changing the language on the keyboard, as the Microsoft settings between EN, SK and DE have never caused me any problems with other programs. Are you using some other keyboard switching program? But that is a side issue we don't need to address on this forum.

                  More relevant is one point you raise on the German:

                  Were we commonly say "German" in dealing with Germanic writings, in reality the administration would have been in Austrian-German, and documents written by locals could have been in any of a dozen or so dialects of German, some extremely different from one another. There were "German" immigrants from Silesia, Baden Wurttemberg, Bavaria, Luxembourg and the Netherlands and many other of the "German" countries at the time. So local documents could pose a particular problem.

                  Conventionally,
                  Mähren = Moravia
                  Mährisch = Moravian, as we would say _of Moravia_
                  Mährer = Moravian _person_ as in _New Yorker_

                  More cautions about the umlaut: The conventional way of expressing the umlaut a _ä_ is to use an _ae_ , resulting in _Maehren_.
                  And the plural of Haus is Häuser. (House and Houses)
                  _Kann man sich mehrer Häuser kaufen?_

                  In this posting I am using the underline _ in place of quotation marks, as it reads easier on a computer screen.

                  Have you read Messages 33616 and 33617 on Slovak World? Vilo attached his question on _German Mahren_ to another thread, so they could be missed if you searched by title.

                  Ron
                  PS. Personally, I feel you are deep into speculation. I would not feel free to draw the conclusions that you have - yet. But it is interesting.

                  --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:

                  > Now knowing that the German Mähren means Moravia, I wondered if a German > official would of named a Moravian - Mähren or Mährische which may point to > the origin of Marhevka. It's as simple as that. I can keep guessing... maybe after Marha (Magyar for cow?).
                  >
                  > Regards
                  >
                  > Peter M.
                  >
                  > To be clear, I am not trying to equate the Moravko name with any other. I'm > just interested in name derivations presently.
                  >




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Frank R Plichta
                  High German known as Hock Deutsch was the educated dialect of German used in government and the newspapers. Low German known as Plot (sp?) Deutsch was the
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 5, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    High German known as Hock Deutsch was the educated dialect of German used in
                    government and the newspapers.



                    Low German known as Plot (sp?) Deutsch was the peasant dialect of German
                    used by the less educated population. Always spoken but rarely written
                    except in a story that was written in a dialect.



                    Frank





                    _____

                    From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of William C. Wormuth
                    Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2012 1:35 PM
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [S-R] German Mahren





                    My Grandfather used to say, he spoke, read and wrote both "high" and "low"
                    German

                    ________________________________
                    From: Ron <amiak27@... <mailto:amiak27%40yahoo.com> >
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, July 5, 2012 10:42 AM
                    Subject: Re: [S-R] German Mahren



                    Peter, I am a bit puzzled over your problem with changing the language on
                    the keyboard, as the Microsoft settings between EN, SK and DE have never
                    caused me any problems with other programs. Are you using some other
                    keyboard switching program? But that is a side issue we don't need to
                    address on this forum.

                    More relevant is one point you raise on the German:

                    Were we commonly say "German" in dealing with Germanic writings, in reality
                    the administration would have been in Austrian-German, and documents written
                    by locals could have been in any of a dozen or so dialects of German, some
                    extremely different from one another. There were "German" immigrants from
                    Silesia, Baden Wurttemberg, Bavaria, Luxembourg and the Netherlands and many
                    other of the "German" countries at the time. So local documents could pose a
                    particular problem.

                    Conventionally,
                    Mähren = Moravia
                    Mährisch = Moravian, as we would say _of Moravia_
                    Mährer = Moravian _person_ as in _New Yorker_

                    More cautions about the umlaut: The conventional way of expressing the
                    umlaut a _ä_ is to use an _ae_ , resulting in _Maehren_.
                    And the plural of Haus is Häuser. (House and Houses)
                    _Kann man sich mehrer Häuser kaufen?_

                    In this posting I am using the underline _ in place of quotation marks, as
                    it reads easier on a computer screen.

                    Have you read Messages 33616 and 33617 on Slovak World? Vilo attached his
                    question on _German Mahren_ to another thread, so they could be missed if
                    you searched by title.

                    Ron
                    PS. Personally, I feel you are deep into speculation. I would not feel free
                    to draw the conclusions that you have - yet. But it is interesting.

                    --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                    , htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:

                    > Now knowing that the German Mähren means Moravia, I wondered if a German
                    > official would of named a Moravian - Mähren or Mährische which may point
                    to > the origin of Marhevka. It's as simple as that. I can keep guessing...
                    maybe after Marha (Magyar for cow?).
                    >
                    > Regards
                    >
                    > Peter M.
                    >
                    > To be clear, I am not trying to equate the Moravko name with any other.
                    I'm > just interested in name derivations presently.
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • tom geiss
                    And where does SUDET GERMAN? SUDENTENLAND GERMAN? or, as someone has called it SUTTERLEIN SCRIPT? fit in here. From some letters written to my
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 5, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      And where does "SUDET GERMAN?" "SUDENTENLAND GERMAN?" or, as someone has called it "SUTTERLEIN SCRIPT?" fit in here. From some letters written to my grandmother from Brezovica this is apparently what language they wrote.
                      Her family was from Spisska Nova Ves (Iglo); were German fluent; had a large farm that I was told was "TAKEN FROM THEM"? (about the time of WW1?)("All who stayed behind were killed?")
                      I have written to the town; I have written to the parish; trying to get more details; about exactly WHO? did this to them; or WHY?? hoping that some very old person might have some remembrance of this??
                      Tom
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: William C. Wormuth
                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2012 12:34 PM
                      Subject: Re: [S-R] German Mahren



                      My Grandfather used to say, he spoke, read and wrote both "high" and "low" German

                      ________________________________
                      From: Ron <amiak27@...>
                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, July 5, 2012 10:42 AM
                      Subject: Re: [S-R] German Mahren



                      Peter, I am a bit puzzled over your problem with changing the language on the keyboard, as the Microsoft settings between EN, SK and DE have never caused me any problems with other programs. Are you using some other keyboard switching program? But that is a side issue we don't need to address on this forum.

                      More relevant is one point you raise on the German:

                      Were we commonly say "German" in dealing with Germanic writings, in reality the administration would have been in Austrian-German, and documents written by locals could have been in any of a dozen or so dialects of German, some extremely different from one another. There were "German" immigrants from Silesia, Baden Wurttemberg, Bavaria, Luxembourg and the Netherlands and many other of the "German" countries at the time. So local documents could pose a particular problem.

                      Conventionally,
                      Mähren = Moravia
                      Mährisch = Moravian, as we would say _of Moravia_
                      Mährer = Moravian _person_ as in _New Yorker_

                      More cautions about the umlaut: The conventional way of expressing the umlaut a _ä_ is to use an _ae_ , resulting in _Maehren_.
                      And the plural of Haus is Häuser. (House and Houses)
                      _Kann man sich mehrer Häuser kaufen?_

                      In this posting I am using the underline _ in place of quotation marks, as it reads easier on a computer screen.

                      Have you read Messages 33616 and 33617 on Slovak World? Vilo attached his question on _German Mahren_ to another thread, so they could be missed if you searched by title.

                      Ron
                      PS. Personally, I feel you are deep into speculation. I would not feel free to draw the conclusions that you have - yet. But it is interesting.

                      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:

                      > Now knowing that the German Mähren means Moravia, I wondered if a German > official would of named a Moravian - Mähren or Mährische which may point to > the origin of Marhevka. It's as simple as that. I can keep guessing... maybe after Marha (Magyar for cow?).
                      >
                      > Regards
                      >
                      > Peter M.
                      >
                      > To be clear, I am not trying to equate the Moravko name with any other. I'm > just interested in name derivations presently.
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ladislav Rosival
                      I think it is not quite correct. In Hochdeutsch the word Hoch (high) does not mean the higher society, but the south part of Germany. The Niederdeutsch was
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 5, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I think it is not quite correct. In Hochdeutsch the word Hoch (high) does
                        not mean the higher society, but the south part of Germany. The
                        Niederdeutsch was (is) used in zhe northern part.



                        Todays German is based on Hochdeutsch.



                        From wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_languages



                        As a technical term, the "high" in High German is a geographical reference
                        to the group of dialects that forms "High German" (in the broader sense),
                        out of which developed standard High German (in the narrower sense), Yiddish
                        and Luxembourgish. It refers to the upland and mountainous areas of central
                        and southern Germany, it also includes Luxembourg, Austria, Liechtenstein
                        and most of Switzerland. This is opposed to Low German, which is spoken on
                        the lowlands and along the flat sea coasts of the north.







                        Ladislav



                        From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of Frank R Plichta
                        Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2012 7:49 PM
                        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [S-R] German Mahren





                        High German known as Hock Deutsch was the educated dialect of German used in
                        government and the newspapers.

                        Low German known as Plot (sp?) Deutsch was the peasant dialect of German
                        used by the less educated population. Always spoken but rarely written
                        except in a story that was written in a dialect.

                        Frank

                        _____

                        From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                        [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                        ] On
                        Behalf Of William C. Wormuth
                        Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2012 1:35 PM
                        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                        Subject: Re: [S-R] German Mahren

                        My Grandfather used to say, he spoke, read and wrote both "high" and "low"
                        German

                        ________________________________
                        From: Ron <amiak27@... <mailto:amiak27%40yahoo.com>
                        <mailto:amiak27%40yahoo.com> >
                        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                        <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, July 5, 2012 10:42 AM
                        Subject: Re: [S-R] German Mahren

                        Peter, I am a bit puzzled over your problem with changing the language on
                        the keyboard, as the Microsoft settings between EN, SK and DE have never
                        caused me any problems with other programs. Are you using some other
                        keyboard switching program? But that is a side issue we don't need to
                        address on this forum.

                        More relevant is one point you raise on the German:

                        Were we commonly say "German" in dealing with Germanic writings, in reality
                        the administration would have been in Austrian-German, and documents written
                        by locals could have been in any of a dozen or so dialects of German, some
                        extremely different from one another. There were "German" immigrants from
                        Silesia, Baden Wurttemberg, Bavaria, Luxembourg and the Netherlands and many
                        other of the "German" countries at the time. So local documents could pose a
                        particular problem.

                        Conventionally,
                        Mähren = Moravia
                        Mährisch = Moravian, as we would say _of Moravia_
                        Mährer = Moravian _person_ as in _New Yorker_

                        More cautions about the umlaut: The conventional way of expressing the
                        umlaut a _ä_ is to use an _ae_ , resulting in _Maehren_.
                        And the plural of Haus is Häuser. (House and Houses)
                        _Kann man sich mehrer Häuser kaufen?_

                        In this posting I am using the underline _ in place of quotation marks, as
                        it reads easier on a computer screen.

                        Have you read Messages 33616 and 33617 on Slovak World? Vilo attached his
                        question on _German Mahren_ to another thread, so they could be missed if
                        you searched by title.

                        Ron
                        PS. Personally, I feel you are deep into speculation. I would not feel free
                        to draw the conclusions that you have - yet. But it is interesting.

                        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                        <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                        , htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:

                        > Now knowing that the German Mähren means Moravia, I wondered if a German
                        > official would of named a Moravian - Mähren or Mährische which may point
                        to > the origin of Marhevka. It's as simple as that. I can keep guessing...
                        maybe after Marha (Magyar for cow?).
                        >
                        > Regards
                        >
                        > Peter M.
                        >
                        > To be clear, I am not trying to equate the Moravko name with any other.
                        I'm > just interested in name derivations presently.
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Ron
                        This is a wonderfully complex series of questions you asked, so bear with me and accept that no one can summarize the books that have been written on these
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jul 5, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          This is a wonderfully complex series of questions you asked, so bear with me and accept that no one can summarize the books that have been written on these topics in one posting.

                          I just deleted my own commentary on Sutterlin and will refer you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%BCtterlin

                          It is a pattern for writing, and not to be confused with Sudeten, which is geographic and based on the name of a mountain range. Again taking the easy way out, read through
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetes
                          for a quick history.

                          The "Germans" who populated a large part of this area were Austrian citizens, along with the Czechs. The centuries of Austrian German dominance of the Czech lands came to an end in 1918 and political tensions rose, but you can read about that on Wiki and in many history books.

                          The Iglau you refer to is called Jihlava today. Since communism collapsed there have been several programs to repatriate property to various former owners, each former communist country setting up its own programs and rules. You have your homework cut out for you if you chose to see what can be reclaimed.

                          In Slovakia the Germans were known generally as Karpatendeutch or Carpathian Germans. The Slovak Germans had about 4 centers of settlement, Bratislava or Pressburg, The center of Slovakia or Hauerland and the Upper and the Lower Spis, Oberzips and Unterzips. The occupants of these areas varied in their history and their places of origin and in their regional dialects of German.

                          Again there is plenty to read out there, and I will refer you to
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Germans

                          for a start, if Slovakia is of interest to you.

                          All of this is covered in thousands of books written on the subjects.

                          As for High and Low German, Consider reading
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_German

                          I just returned from Europe where I spent some time in Germany and Bavaria, where I visited my German goddaughter. She was kind enough to translate her in-laws Bavarian German into standard German so I could understand what they were saying.

                          Ron




                          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "tom geiss" <tomfgurka@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > And where does "SUDET GERMAN?" "SUDENTENLAND GERMAN?" or, as someone has called it "SUTTERLEIN SCRIPT?" fit in here. From some letters written to my grandmother from Brezovica this is apparently what language they wrote.
                          > Her family was from Spisska Nova Ves (Iglo); were German fluent; had a large farm that I was told was "TAKEN FROM THEM"? (about the time of WW1?)("All who stayed behind were killed?")
                          > I have written to the town; I have written to the parish; trying to get more details; about exactly WHO? did this to them; or WHY?? hoping that some very old person might have some remembrance of this??
                          > Tom
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: William C. Wormuth
                          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2012 12:34 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [S-R] German Mahren
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > My Grandfather used to say, he spoke, read and wrote both "high" and "low" German
                          >
                        • tom geiss
                          No, I am not the slightest bit interested in reclaiming any lost property. I simply want to find the COMPLETE STORY of my grandmother s family. I ve
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jul 6, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            No, I am not the slightest bit interested in reclaiming any lost property. I simply want to find the "COMPLETE STORY" of my grandmother's family. I've learned a lot in six years; and want "THE REST OF THE STORY", as Paul Harvey would say.
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Ron
                            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2012 3:42 PM
                            Subject: Re: [S-R] German Mahren



                            This is a wonderfully complex series of questions you asked, so bear with me and accept that no one can summarize the books that have been written on these topics in one posting.

                            I just deleted my own commentary on Sutterlin and will refer you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%BCtterlin

                            It is a pattern for writing, and not to be confused with Sudeten, which is geographic and based on the name of a mountain range. Again taking the easy way out, read through
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetes
                            for a quick history.

                            The "Germans" who populated a large part of this area were Austrian citizens, along with the Czechs. The centuries of Austrian German dominance of the Czech lands came to an end in 1918 and political tensions rose, but you can read about that on Wiki and in many history books.

                            The Iglau you refer to is called Jihlava today. Since communism collapsed there have been several programs to repatriate property to various former owners, each former communist country setting up its own programs and rules. You have your homework cut out for you if you chose to see what can be reclaimed.

                            In Slovakia the Germans were known generally as Karpatendeutch or Carpathian Germans. The Slovak Germans had about 4 centers of settlement, Bratislava or Pressburg, The center of Slovakia or Hauerland and the Upper and the Lower Spis, Oberzips and Unterzips. The occupants of these areas varied in their history and their places of origin and in their regional dialects of German.

                            Again there is plenty to read out there, and I will refer you to
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Germans

                            for a start, if Slovakia is of interest to you.

                            All of this is covered in thousands of books written on the subjects.

                            As for High and Low German, Consider reading
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_German

                            I just returned from Europe where I spent some time in Germany and Bavaria, where I visited my German goddaughter. She was kind enough to translate her in-laws Bavarian German into standard German so I could understand what they were saying.

                            Ron

                            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "tom geiss" <tomfgurka@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > And where does "SUDET GERMAN?" "SUDENTENLAND GERMAN?" or, as someone has called it "SUTTERLEIN SCRIPT?" fit in here. From some letters written to my grandmother from Brezovica this is apparently what language they wrote.
                            > Her family was from Spisska Nova Ves (Iglo); were German fluent; had a large farm that I was told was "TAKEN FROM THEM"? (about the time of WW1?)("All who stayed behind were killed?")
                            > I have written to the town; I have written to the parish; trying to get more details; about exactly WHO? did this to them; or WHY?? hoping that some very old person might have some remembrance of this??
                            > Tom
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: William C. Wormuth
                            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2012 12:34 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [S-R] German Mahren
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > My Grandfather used to say, he spoke, read and wrote both "high" and "low" German
                            >





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