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Re: The Convention of naming twins

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  • deeellessbee
    I actually have seen twins a couple of times named Adam & Eve, and just last night was looking through the on-line records and saw two sets of twin girls
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 17, 2012
      I actually have seen twins a couple of times named Adam & Eve, and just last night was looking through the on-line records and saw two sets of twin girls within a few weeks (or possibly even days) of each other named Eva and Maria. It actually struck me because I thought I was viewing the same page again when I saw the names again, and went back and checked and sure enough it was two different sets of girls.

      That being said, I haven't paid close enough attention to tell whether this is a custom, or trend, or just coincidence. I don't recall the Adam & Eve twins exactly (which town, what year, etc.) and last night's discovery of the two Evas and Marias could have just been names that were popular at the time (although I can't help but think there is a biblical connection there too, as with Adam & Eve).

      Fun topic, and from now on I will keep an eye out and maybe even take notes! I recall that I thought there were a high number of twins in one of the villages I was researching, so perhaps I'll go back and look again and pay attention this time.

      Debbie

      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello All,
      >
      > I've often seen Adamus and Eva used as naming boy/girl twins. Apparently it
      > was a convention at the time, around 1700-1800.
      > If they were two gilrs, they were Eva and Maria. If they were two boys,
      > then their names were Adamus and Stephanus (although not strictly).
      >
      > Do you agree with this? In your experiences, have you noticed these name
      > pairings?
      >
      > Thanks
      >
      > Peter M.
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • htcstech
      I would appreciate it if all of you do keep it in mind. I m trying to make an educated best guess on a pair of likely twins named George and Michael (no jokes
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 17, 2012
        I would appreciate it if all of you do keep it in mind.
        I'm trying to make an educated best guess on a pair of likely twins named
        George and Michael (no jokes please).
        Calculation from death records show they were both born in 1697 and both
        died within a few months of each other at age 85. There are no birth
        records and I doubt if they could be found or even exist.

        So they are either twins, or sons of 2 closely related families that
        settled in the ancestral home town soon after 1720.

        There is approximately 4 generations before actual birth records begin, and
        I have to make more educated guesses on how these two originating fathers
        relate to confirmed births and marriage records.

        My educated best guess is not made up yet and I'm looking at a number of
        factors including the number of family individuals by 1800.

        The convention of naming children is of interest to me and this would be
        one factor that could add weight to the twin or two family scenarios.

        On that note, I have seen a male christened 'Sylvester' - who was born on
        New Year's eve. I believe there is a rhyme and reason for naming. Father's
        always named their son after themselves.

        Ethnically, these people originated from East Moravia, lived north of
        Nyitra and settled between there and north of Bratislava before finally
        arriving in the Galanta district. So I'm looking at Moravian-Slovak
        traditions. I have no evidence that Ruysn naming conventions (naming after
        grandfather) applies in this case.

        Thanks

        Peter M.

        On 18 June 2012 10:25, deeellessbee <deeellessbee@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > I actually have seen twins a couple of times named Adam & Eve, and just
        > last night was looking through the on-line records and saw two sets of twin
        > girls within a few weeks (or possibly even days) of each other named Eva
        > and Maria. It actually struck me because I thought I was viewing the same
        > page again when I saw the names again, and went back and checked and sure
        > enough it was two different sets of girls.
        >
        > That being said, I haven't paid close enough attention to tell whether
        > this is a custom, or trend, or just coincidence. I don't recall the Adam &
        > Eve twins exactly (which town, what year, etc.) and last night's discovery
        > of the two Evas and Marias could have just been names that were popular at
        > the time (although I can't help but think there is a biblical connection
        > there too, as with Adam & Eve).
        >
        > Fun topic, and from now on I will keep an eye out and maybe even take
        > notes! I recall that I thought there were a high number of twins in one of
        > the villages I was researching, so perhaps I'll go back and look again and
        > pay attention this time.
        >
        > Debbie
        >
        >
        > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello All,
        > >
        > > I've often seen Adamus and Eva used as naming boy/girl twins. Apparently
        > it
        > > was a convention at the time, around 1700-1800.
        > > If they were two gilrs, they were Eva and Maria. If they were two boys,
        > > then their names were Adamus and Stephanus (although not strictly).
        > >
        > > Do you agree with this? In your experiences, have you noticed these name
        > > pairings?
        > >
        > > Thanks
        > >
        > > Peter M.
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • John Sabol
        December 31 is the feast of St. Sylvester. ... From: htcstech To: SLOVAK-ROOTS Sent: Mon, Jun 18, 2012
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 18, 2012
          December 31 is the feast of St. Sylvester.



          -----Original Message-----
          From: htcstech <htcstech@...>
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Mon, Jun 18, 2012 12:44 am
          Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: The Convention of naming twins





          I would appreciate it if all of you do keep it in mind.
          I'm trying to make an educated best guess on a pair of likely twins named
          George and Michael (no jokes please).
          Calculation from death records show they were both born in 1697 and both
          died within a few months of each other at age 85. There are no birth
          records and I doubt if they could be found or even exist.

          So they are either twins, or sons of 2 closely related families that
          settled in the ancestral home town soon after 1720.

          There is approximately 4 generations before actual birth records begin, and
          I have to make more educated guesses on how these two originating fathers
          relate to confirmed births and marriage records.

          My educated best guess is not made up yet and I'm looking at a number of
          factors including the number of family individuals by 1800.

          The convention of naming children is of interest to me and this would be
          one factor that could add weight to the twin or two family scenarios.

          On that note, I have seen a male christened 'Sylvester' - who was born on
          New Year's eve. I believe there is a rhyme and reason for naming. Father's
          always named their son after themselves.

          Ethnically, these people originated from East Moravia, lived north of
          Nyitra and settled between there and north of Bratislava before finally
          arriving in the Galanta district. So I'm looking at Moravian-Slovak
          traditions. I have no evidence that Ruysn naming conventions (naming after
          grandfather) applies in this case.

          Thanks

          Peter M.

          On 18 June 2012 10:25, deeellessbee <deeellessbee@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > I actually have seen twins a couple of times named Adam & Eve, and just
          > last night was looking through the on-line records and saw two sets of twin
          > girls within a few weeks (or possibly even days) of each other named Eva
          > and Maria. It actually struck me because I thought I was viewing the same
          > page again when I saw the names again, and went back and checked and sure
          > enough it was two different sets of girls.
          >
          > That being said, I haven't paid close enough attention to tell whether
          > this is a custom, or trend, or just coincidence. I don't recall the Adam &
          > Eve twins exactly (which town, what year, etc.) and last night's discovery
          > of the two Evas and Marias could have just been names that were popular at
          > the time (although I can't help but think there is a biblical connection
          > there too, as with Adam & Eve).
          >
          > Fun topic, and from now on I will keep an eye out and maybe even take
          > notes! I recall that I thought there were a high number of twins in one of
          > the villages I was researching, so perhaps I'll go back and look again and
          > pay attention this time.
          >
          > Debbie
          >
          >
          > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello All,
          > >
          > > I've often seen Adamus and Eva used as naming boy/girl twins. Apparently
          > it
          > > was a convention at the time, around 1700-1800.
          > > If they were two gilrs, they were Eva and Maria. If they were two boys,
          > > then their names were Adamus and Stephanus (although not strictly).
          > >
          > > Do you agree with this? In your experiences, have you noticed these name
          > > pairings?
          > >
          > > Thanks
          > >
          > > Peter M.
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Julie Michutka
          I ve also seen twins named Adam and Eve, once on New Year s Day which I think is somehow associated with them. (I m not sure if it can be called a Saint s
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 18, 2012
            I've also seen twins named Adam and Eve, once on New Year's Day which I think is somehow associated with them. (I'm not sure if it can be called a Saint's Day--I can't remember if they are considered saints in the Catholic church.)

            I agree with Steve that popularity of names changed over time, and also differed from village to village. I've noticed different first names among Evangelical and RC registers in one town, too.

            Children were sometimes also named by the nearest saint's day; you'll see an up-tick in Georges in April, for example. It's gotten so if I'm hunting for the birth date of someone with a less-common first name, I start searching around the saint's feast day (name day).

            Peter, I'm not clear from your statement that fathers always named their sons after themselves if you are basing this on records you've read, or if you are making a generalization. Certainly it can't be said for all places and all times in Slovakia. I am always hesitant to read too much into the naming of children in the 19th century records, since (according to my understanding) it was the godparents who named the child. Or did they simply present the child for baptism and offer the name that the parents wanted? Hard to know!

            Julie Michutka
            jmm@...

            On Jun 17, 2012, at 12:14 PM, htcstech wrote:

            > Hello All,
            >
            > I've often seen Adamus and Eva used as naming boy/girl twins. Apparently it
            > was a convention at the time, around 1700-1800.
            > If they were two gilrs, they were Eva and Maria. If they were two boys,
            > then their names were Adamus and Stephanus (although not strictly).
            >
            > Do you agree with this? In your experiences, have you noticed these name
            > pairings?
            >
            > Thanks
            >
            > Peter M.
            >
          • htcstech
            I suppose we re getting closer. I vaguely remember something about Godparents and naming rights, but I thought these were spiritual names in the RC tradition
            Message 5 of 10 , Jun 18, 2012
              I suppose we're getting closer. I vaguely remember something about
              Godparents and naming rights, but I thought these were 'spiritual names' in
              the RC tradition and definitely not all encompassing.

              I'm drawing to the conclusion that naming conventions for the period
              1700-1800 are really village and family based with a strong influence of
              the church. The church was everything in those days, and my family (the
              whole village) was fiercely 100% RC.

              So I can confirm that Adam and Eva were the default names of mixed gender
              twins, Sylvester was named because he was born on the 31st.
              The only light in the tunnel could be the Saint's days or as was tradition
              at one point, the RC religious names of the month, which may have
              influenced the baptismal name.

              Also, it was a strong tradition to name the first born male after the
              father, and the first born female after the mother. So Joannes begat
              Joannes ifu (ifu means 'son of'). Infant mortality shows that many male
              children were named the same until one survived. This may be a reason for
              fathers naming their male first born after themselves to preserve the name,
              perhaps to distinguish his family from his cousins.
              If you follow this line of thought, then the various branches of the family
              sort themselves out (pre-1800).
              George begat George who begat George
              Michael begat Michael etc (this name dies out)
              Antonius begat Antonius etc
              Martinus begat Martinus etc
              Josephus begat Josephus etc
              Joannes begat Joannes AND NOW I have run out of Christian names for my
              family for the period.

              Later came Emericus and Franciscus, Stephanus, Lazar and saint names from
              other ethnicities like Boris etc.

              For the females:
              Eva ~ Elisabetha
              Maria
              Theresia
              Anna
              Catharina

              Later:
              Julianna, Sofia, Apollonia and others.

              What is interesting for me are the names that are not used, but used by
              others in the village, like Andras, Matthias, Paulus etc. That also seems
              to confirm that family names stayed in the family.

              I won't be able to do more on this until I finish the pedigrees and look at
              them as generations.

              Peter M.

              On 18 June 2012 23:48, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > I've also seen twins named Adam and Eve, once on New Year's Day which I
              > think is somehow associated with them. (I'm not sure if it can be called a
              > Saint's Day--I can't remember if they are considered saints in the Catholic
              > church.)
              >
              > I agree with Steve that popularity of names changed over time, and also
              > differed from village to village. I've noticed different first names among
              > Evangelical and RC registers in one town, too.
              >
              > Children were sometimes also named by the nearest saint's day; you'll see
              > an up-tick in Georges in April, for example. It's gotten so if I'm hunting
              > for the birth date of someone with a less-common first name, I start
              > searching around the saint's feast day (name day).
              >
              > Peter, I'm not clear from your statement that fathers always named their
              > sons after themselves if you are basing this on records you've read, or if
              > you are making a generalization. Certainly it can't be said for all places
              > and all times in Slovakia. I am always hesitant to read too much into the
              > naming of children in the 19th century records, since (according to my
              > understanding) it was the godparents who named the child. Or did they
              > simply present the child for baptism and offer the name that the parents
              > wanted? Hard to know!
              >
              > Julie Michutka
              > jmm@...
              >
              >
              > On Jun 17, 2012, at 12:14 PM, htcstech wrote:
              >
              > > Hello All,
              > >
              > > I've often seen Adamus and Eva used as naming boy/girl twins. Apparently
              > it
              > > was a convention at the time, around 1700-1800.
              > > If they were two gilrs, they were Eva and Maria. If they were two boys,
              > > then their names were Adamus and Stephanus (although not strictly).
              > >
              > > Do you agree with this? In your experiences, have you noticed these name
              > > pairings?
              > >
              > > Thanks
              > >
              > > Peter M.
              > >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • deeellessbee
              One of the children of my great-grandparents was an Andras Melchior. I kept thinking how unusual it was for this child to have a middle name. No other child
              Message 6 of 10 , Jun 19, 2012
                One of the children of my great-grandparents was an Andras Melchior. I kept thinking how unusual it was for this child to have a middle name. No other child in the family did (or at least it was not in the baptismal record) and from what I saw, there really was not a widespread use of middle names among others, if at all.

                Then I realized the baby was born on January 6th. Three Kings Day. And I figured that's where the Melchior came from.

                I'm not sure of Slovak naming traditions, but I know a lot of lines I deal with in other cultures often name the first son after the paternal grandfather, and the first daughter after the maternal grandmother. I can't remember off the top of my head if the next son is named after the maternal grandfather or the father, but I believe it's usually the g'father. And so the third son is named after the father, and the third daughter after the mother, with the second daughter being named after the paternal g'mother. But I guess in any culture these traditions are just that - traditions - and not rules or laws, and so can be changed.

                Debbie




                --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
                >
                > I suppose we're getting closer. I vaguely remember something about
                > Godparents and naming rights, but I thought these were 'spiritual names' in
                > the RC tradition and definitely not all encompassing.
                >
                > I'm drawing to the conclusion that naming conventions for the period
                > 1700-1800 are really village and family based with a strong influence of
                > the church. The church was everything in those days, and my family (the
                > whole village) was fiercely 100% RC.
                >
                > So I can confirm that Adam and Eva were the default names of mixed gender
                > twins, Sylvester was named because he was born on the 31st.
                > The only light in the tunnel could be the Saint's days or as was tradition
                > at one point, the RC religious names of the month, which may have
                > influenced the baptismal name.
                >
                > Also, it was a strong tradition to name the first born male after the
                > father, and the first born female after the mother. So Joannes begat
                > Joannes ifu (ifu means 'son of'). Infant mortality shows that many male
                > children were named the same until one survived. This may be a reason for
                > fathers naming their male first born after themselves to preserve the name,
                > perhaps to distinguish his family from his cousins.
                > If you follow this line of thought, then the various branches of the family
                > sort themselves out (pre-1800).
                > George begat George who begat George
                > Michael begat Michael etc (this name dies out)
                > Antonius begat Antonius etc
                > Martinus begat Martinus etc
                > Josephus begat Josephus etc
                > Joannes begat Joannes AND NOW I have run out of Christian names for my
                > family for the period.
                >
                > Later came Emericus and Franciscus, Stephanus, Lazar and saint names from
                > other ethnicities like Boris etc.
                >
                > For the females:
                > Eva ~ Elisabetha
                > Maria
                > Theresia
                > Anna
                > Catharina
                >
                > Later:
                > Julianna, Sofia, Apollonia and others.
                >
                > What is interesting for me are the names that are not used, but used by
                > others in the village, like Andras, Matthias, Paulus etc. That also seems
                > to confirm that family names stayed in the family.
                >
                > I won't be able to do more on this until I finish the pedigrees and look at
                > them as generations.
                >
                > Peter M.
                >
                > On 18 June 2012 23:48, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:
                >
                > > **
                > >
                > >
                > > I've also seen twins named Adam and Eve, once on New Year's Day which I
                > > think is somehow associated with them. (I'm not sure if it can be called a
                > > Saint's Day--I can't remember if they are considered saints in the Catholic
                > > church.)
                > >
                > > I agree with Steve that popularity of names changed over time, and also
                > > differed from village to village. I've noticed different first names among
                > > Evangelical and RC registers in one town, too.
                > >
                > > Children were sometimes also named by the nearest saint's day; you'll see
                > > an up-tick in Georges in April, for example. It's gotten so if I'm hunting
                > > for the birth date of someone with a less-common first name, I start
                > > searching around the saint's feast day (name day).
                > >
                > > Peter, I'm not clear from your statement that fathers always named their
                > > sons after themselves if you are basing this on records you've read, or if
                > > you are making a generalization. Certainly it can't be said for all places
                > > and all times in Slovakia. I am always hesitant to read too much into the
                > > naming of children in the 19th century records, since (according to my
                > > understanding) it was the godparents who named the child. Or did they
                > > simply present the child for baptism and offer the name that the parents
                > > wanted? Hard to know!
                > >
                > > Julie Michutka
                > > jmm@...
                > >
                > >
                > > On Jun 17, 2012, at 12:14 PM, htcstech wrote:
                > >
                > > > Hello All,
                > > >
                > > > I've often seen Adamus and Eva used as naming boy/girl twins. Apparently
                > > it
                > > > was a convention at the time, around 1700-1800.
                > > > If they were two gilrs, they were Eva and Maria. If they were two boys,
                > > > then their names were Adamus and Stephanus (although not strictly).
                > > >
                > > > Do you agree with this? In your experiences, have you noticed these name
                > > > pairings?
                > > >
                > > > Thanks
                > > >
                > > > Peter M.
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Karen Kosky
                On a side note, I have an aunt and great aunt that we ve always called Milka but the older s name is actually Emilia and the younger Ludmilla. Ludmilla told me
                Message 7 of 10 , Jun 20, 2012
                  On a side note, I have an aunt and great aunt that we've always called Milka but the older's name is actually Emilia and the younger Ludmilla. Ludmilla told me a curious story about her christening. Emilia decided to name her daughter Emilia as well. However, the priest decided he liked Ludmilla and took it upon himself to name her. Ludmilla is only 60 so it was an alarming thought to me how much power earlier priests must have had. I started wondering if names recorded in the parish records were actually what these people were called by their family and if this could explain people who just seem to disappear from the records.

                  ________________________________
                  From: deeellessbee <deeellessbee@...>
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 6:29 PM
                  Subject: Re: [S-R] The Convention of naming twins


                   
                  One of the children of my great-grandparents was an Andras Melchior. I kept thinking how unusual it was for this child to have a middle name. No other child in the family did (or at least it was not in the baptismal record) and from what I saw, there really was not a widespread use of middle names among others, if at all.

                  Then I realized the baby was born on January 6th. Three Kings Day. And I figured that's where the Melchior came from.

                  I'm not sure of Slovak naming traditions, but I know a lot of lines I deal with in other cultures often name the first son after the paternal grandfather, and the first daughter after the maternal grandmother. I can't remember off the top of my head if the next son is named after the maternal grandfather or the father, but I believe it's usually the g'father. And so the third son is named after the father, and the third daughter after the mother, with the second daughter being named after the paternal g'mother. But I guess in any culture these traditions are just that - traditions - and not rules or laws, and so can be changed.

                  Debbie

                  --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I suppose we're getting closer. I vaguely remember something about
                  > Godparents and naming rights, but I thought these were 'spiritual names' in
                  > the RC tradition and definitely not all encompassing.
                  >
                  > I'm drawing to the conclusion that naming conventions for the period
                  > 1700-1800 are really village and family based with a strong influence of
                  > the church. The church was everything in those days, and my family (the
                  > whole village) was fiercely 100% RC.
                  >
                  > So I can confirm that Adam and Eva were the default names of mixed gender
                  > twins, Sylvester was named because he was born on the 31st.
                  > The only light in the tunnel could be the Saint's days or as was tradition
                  > at one point, the RC religious names of the month, which may have
                  > influenced the baptismal name.
                  >
                  > Also, it was a strong tradition to name the first born male after the
                  > father, and the first born female after the mother. So Joannes begat
                  > Joannes ifu (ifu means 'son of'). Infant mortality shows that many male
                  > children were named the same until one survived. This may be a reason for
                  > fathers naming their male first born after themselves to preserve the name,
                  > perhaps to distinguish his family from his cousins.
                  > If you follow this line of thought, then the various branches of the family
                  > sort themselves out (pre-1800).
                  > George begat George who begat George
                  > Michael begat Michael etc (this name dies out)
                  > Antonius begat Antonius etc
                  > Martinus begat Martinus etc
                  > Josephus begat Josephus etc
                  > Joannes begat Joannes AND NOW I have run out of Christian names for my
                  > family for the period.
                  >
                  > Later came Emericus and Franciscus, Stephanus, Lazar and saint names from
                  > other ethnicities like Boris etc.
                  >
                  > For the females:
                  > Eva ~ Elisabetha
                  > Maria
                  > Theresia
                  > Anna
                  > Catharina
                  >
                  > Later:
                  > Julianna, Sofia, Apollonia and others.
                  >
                  > What is interesting for me are the names that are not used, but used by
                  > others in the village, like Andras, Matthias, Paulus etc. That also seems
                  > to confirm that family names stayed in the family.
                  >
                  > I won't be able to do more on this until I finish the pedigrees and look at
                  > them as generations.
                  >
                  > Peter M.
                  >
                  > On 18 June 2012 23:48, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > **
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I've also seen twins named Adam and Eve, once on New Year's Day which I
                  > > think is somehow associated with them. (I'm not sure if it can be called a
                  > > Saint's Day--I can't remember if they are considered saints in the Catholic
                  > > church.)
                  > >
                  > > I agree with Steve that popularity of names changed over time, and also
                  > > differed from village to village. I've noticed different first names among
                  > > Evangelical and RC registers in one town, too.
                  > >
                  > > Children were sometimes also named by the nearest saint's day; you'll see
                  > > an up-tick in Georges in April, for example. It's gotten so if I'm hunting
                  > > for the birth date of someone with a less-common first name, I start
                  > > searching around the saint's feast day (name day).
                  > >
                  > > Peter, I'm not clear from your statement that fathers always named their
                  > > sons after themselves if you are basing this on records you've read, or if
                  > > you are making a generalization. Certainly it can't be said for all places
                  > > and all times in Slovakia. I am always hesitant to read too much into the
                  > > naming of children in the 19th century records, since (according to my
                  > > understanding) it was the godparents who named the child. Or did they
                  > > simply present the child for baptism and offer the name that the parents
                  > > wanted? Hard to know!
                  > >
                  > > Julie Michutka
                  > > jmm@...
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On Jun 17, 2012, at 12:14 PM, htcstech wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > Hello All,
                  > > >
                  > > > I've often seen Adamus and Eva used as naming boy/girl twins. Apparently
                  > > it
                  > > > was a convention at the time, around 1700-1800.
                  > > > If they were two gilrs, they were Eva and Maria. If they were two boys,
                  > > > then their names were Adamus and Stephanus (although not strictly).
                  > > >
                  > > > Do you agree with this? In your experiences, have you noticed these name
                  > > > pairings?
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks
                  > > >
                  > > > Peter M.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • tom geiss
                  Sometimes people change their own names. I have a cousin there whose father told me is called EMILIA (At least this is the translation of his letter to me.
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jun 20, 2012
                    Sometimes people change their own names. I have a cousin there whose father told me is called EMILIA (At least this is the "translation" of his letter to me.
                    But on facebook she called herself EMUSKA; and later changed it to EM EMI.

                    And I have family here who were born to MORALEVITZ, who later shortened it to MARLO and MARLOW.
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Karen Kosky
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 2:13 PM
                    Subject: Re: [S-R] The Convention of naming twins





                    On a side note, I have an aunt and great aunt that we've always called Milka but the older's name is actually Emilia and the younger Ludmilla. Ludmilla told me a curious story about her christening. Emilia decided to name her daughter Emilia as well. However, the priest decided he liked Ludmilla and took it upon himself to name her. Ludmilla is only 60 so it was an alarming thought to me how much power earlier priests must have had. I started wondering if names recorded in the parish records were actually what these people were called by their family and if this could explain people who just seem to disappear from the records.

                    ________________________________
                    From: deeellessbee <deeellessbee@...>
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 6:29 PM
                    Subject: Re: [S-R] The Convention of naming twins



                    One of the children of my great-grandparents was an Andras Melchior. I kept thinking how unusual it was for this child to have a middle name. No other child in the family did (or at least it was not in the baptismal record) and from what I saw, there really was not a widespread use of middle names among others, if at all.

                    Then I realized the baby was born on January 6th. Three Kings Day. And I figured that's where the Melchior came from.

                    I'm not sure of Slovak naming traditions, but I know a lot of lines I deal with in other cultures often name the first son after the paternal grandfather, and the first daughter after the maternal grandmother. I can't remember off the top of my head if the next son is named after the maternal grandfather or the father, but I believe it's usually the g'father. And so the third son is named after the father, and the third daughter after the mother, with the second daughter being named after the paternal g'mother. But I guess in any culture these traditions are just that - traditions - and not rules or laws, and so can be changed.

                    Debbie

                    --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I suppose we're getting closer. I vaguely remember something about
                    > Godparents and naming rights, but I thought these were 'spiritual names' in
                    > the RC tradition and definitely not all encompassing.
                    >
                    > I'm drawing to the conclusion that naming conventions for the period
                    > 1700-1800 are really village and family based with a strong influence of
                    > the church. The church was everything in those days, and my family (the
                    > whole village) was fiercely 100% RC.
                    >
                    > So I can confirm that Adam and Eva were the default names of mixed gender
                    > twins, Sylvester was named because he was born on the 31st.
                    > The only light in the tunnel could be the Saint's days or as was tradition
                    > at one point, the RC religious names of the month, which may have
                    > influenced the baptismal name.
                    >
                    > Also, it was a strong tradition to name the first born male after the
                    > father, and the first born female after the mother. So Joannes begat
                    > Joannes ifu (ifu means 'son of'). Infant mortality shows that many male
                    > children were named the same until one survived. This may be a reason for
                    > fathers naming their male first born after themselves to preserve the name,
                    > perhaps to distinguish his family from his cousins.
                    > If you follow this line of thought, then the various branches of the family
                    > sort themselves out (pre-1800).
                    > George begat George who begat George
                    > Michael begat Michael etc (this name dies out)
                    > Antonius begat Antonius etc
                    > Martinus begat Martinus etc
                    > Josephus begat Josephus etc
                    > Joannes begat Joannes AND NOW I have run out of Christian names for my
                    > family for the period.
                    >
                    > Later came Emericus and Franciscus, Stephanus, Lazar and saint names from
                    > other ethnicities like Boris etc.
                    >
                    > For the females:
                    > Eva ~ Elisabetha
                    > Maria
                    > Theresia
                    > Anna
                    > Catharina
                    >
                    > Later:
                    > Julianna, Sofia, Apollonia and others.
                    >
                    > What is interesting for me are the names that are not used, but used by
                    > others in the village, like Andras, Matthias, Paulus etc. That also seems
                    > to confirm that family names stayed in the family.
                    >
                    > I won't be able to do more on this until I finish the pedigrees and look at
                    > them as generations.
                    >
                    > Peter M.
                    >
                    > On 18 June 2012 23:48, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > **
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I've also seen twins named Adam and Eve, once on New Year's Day which I
                    > > think is somehow associated with them. (I'm not sure if it can be called a
                    > > Saint's Day--I can't remember if they are considered saints in the Catholic
                    > > church.)
                    > >
                    > > I agree with Steve that popularity of names changed over time, and also
                    > > differed from village to village. I've noticed different first names among
                    > > Evangelical and RC registers in one town, too.
                    > >
                    > > Children were sometimes also named by the nearest saint's day; you'll see
                    > > an up-tick in Georges in April, for example. It's gotten so if I'm hunting
                    > > for the birth date of someone with a less-common first name, I start
                    > > searching around the saint's feast day (name day).
                    > >
                    > > Peter, I'm not clear from your statement that fathers always named their
                    > > sons after themselves if you are basing this on records you've read, or if
                    > > you are making a generalization. Certainly it can't be said for all places
                    > > and all times in Slovakia. I am always hesitant to read too much into the
                    > > naming of children in the 19th century records, since (according to my
                    > > understanding) it was the godparents who named the child. Or did they
                    > > simply present the child for baptism and offer the name that the parents
                    > > wanted? Hard to know!
                    > >
                    > > Julie Michutka
                    > > jmm@...
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > On Jun 17, 2012, at 12:14 PM, htcstech wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > Hello All,
                    > > >
                    > > > I've often seen Adamus and Eva used as naming boy/girl twins. Apparently
                    > > it
                    > > > was a convention at the time, around 1700-1800.
                    > > > If they were two gilrs, they were Eva and Maria. If they were two boys,
                    > > > then their names were Adamus and Stephanus (although not strictly).
                    > > >
                    > > > Do you agree with this? In your experiences, have you noticed these name
                    > > > pairings?
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks
                    > > >
                    > > > Peter M.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >

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