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Re: [S-R] Godparent traditions READ

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  • Michael Mojher
    Thanks for the link. What a valuable discussion and lesson. From: Hungarian Family Record Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 4:43 AM To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 5, 2012
      Thanks for the link. What a valuable discussion and lesson.

      From: Hungarian Family Record
      Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 4:43 AM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [S-R] Godparent traditions


      In Hungarian , sometimes Slovakian famiy records - the same couple is usually used for the baptisms. They are usually not related . They are " koma " of the groom usually - like a favorite buddy and his wife . If one is deceased along the way ,a relative of the " koma " substitutes for him . But with the villages so small , they could sometimes be cousins .

      Here's a great link from the old list days where Felix Game and Ron McComb discussed this tradition : http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/HUNGARY/1998-03/0891399425

      www.hungarianfamilyrecord.org

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • genmom4
      Once again, I am reading through this discussion about godparents with great interest. I have mentioned that I am 7/8 Slovak. I have not found this godparent
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 6, 2012
        Once again, I am reading through this discussion about godparents with great interest.
        I have mentioned that I am 7/8 Slovak. I have not found this godparent trend in any of my family lines.

        One line is a shepherd who moves from place to place. Whenever there is a birth in a new town, new godparents show up. Wouldn't you think that he'd pick a shepherd who was traveling with the group? But, no, I don't see that happening.

        Several of my lines have godparents that are Greek Catholic when the family is Roman Catholic. I know it sounds bizarre, and no one was more surprised than I, but such was the case.

        I also have baptisms in a Roman Catholic Registry who have neither parent marked as being Roman Catholic. But that has nothing to do with godparents, so I won't get off subject here.

        It appears that my families "break the rules".
        This has resulted in my having quite an open mind when it comes to genealogy.

        "Abnormal" is normal for me!
        Barbara


        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Hungarian Family Record <hfr100@...> wrote:
        >
        > In Hungarian , sometimes Slovakian famiy records  - the same couple is usually used for the baptisms. They are usually not related . They are " koma " of the groom usually - like a favorite buddy  and his wife . If one is deceased along the way ,a relative of the " koma " substitutes for him . But with the villages so small , they could sometimes be cousins .
        >
        > Here's a great link from the old list days where Felix Game and Ron McComb discussed this tradition : http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/HUNGARY/1998-03/0891399425
        >
        > www.hungarianfamilyrecord.org
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • CurtB
        Barbara, You are probably not abnormal at all. Everyone seems to think that there is just one accepted way to do the baptism sponsorship matter,namely the way
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 6, 2012
          Barbara,
          You are probably not abnormal at all. Everyone seems to think that there is just one accepted way to do the baptism sponsorship matter,namely the way their family did it.
          There just is and was not a single tradition anywhere. Among Catholics Canon law just requires a witnessing adult and preferrably two of them. Some families want relatives. Other ones want close friends or neighbors even when not of the same religion. Baptismal sponsors come in all colors, even a few atheists here and there.

          My great grandfather served as sponsor to about forty different baptisms in his Slovak village church, but that is just because he lived next door to the church and when someone needed one, he was available on short notice.

          Curt B.

          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "genmom4" <geismom@...> wrote:
          >
          > Once again, I am reading through this discussion about godparents with great interest.
          > I have mentioned that I am 7/8 Slovak. I have not found this godparent trend in any of my family lines.
          >
          > One line is a shepherd who moves from place to place. Whenever there is a birth in a new town, new godparents show up. Wouldn't you think that he'd pick a shepherd who was traveling with the group? But, no, I don't see that happening.
          >
          > Several of my lines have godparents that are Greek Catholic when the family is Roman Catholic. I know it sounds bizarre, and no one was more surprised than I, but such was the case.
          >
          > I also have baptisms in a Roman Catholic Registry who have neither parent marked as being Roman Catholic. But that has nothing to do with godparents, so I won't get off subject here.
          >
          > It appears that my families "break the rules".
          > This has resulted in my having quite an open mind when it comes to genealogy.
          >
          > "Abnormal" is normal for me!
          > Barbara
          >
          >
          > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Hungarian Family Record <hfr100@> wrote:
          > >
          > > In Hungarian , sometimes Slovakian famiy records  - the same couple is usually used for the baptisms. They are usually not related . They are " koma " of the groom usually - like a favorite buddy  and his wife . If one is deceased along the way ,a relative of the " koma " substitutes for him . But with the villages so small , they could sometimes be cousins .
          > >
          > > Here's a great link from the old list days where Felix Game and Ron McComb discussed this tradition : http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/HUNGARY/1998-03/0891399425
          > >
          > > www.hungarianfamilyrecord.org
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
        • lkocik@comcast.net
          Curt  About your statement that even atheists were godparents; do you have documentation? It s just that in over 10 years doing genealogy research  and 63
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 6, 2012
            Curt

             About your statement that even atheists were godparents; do you have documentation? It's just that in over 10 years doing genealogy research  and 63 years as a catholic, I've never heard of this. I know just because I never heard of it doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. The role of godparents is to ensure the child is raised in the religion of the parents if the parents should die. I understand that the custom might vary a little in different villiages and especially in the more liberal world today, but I still can't imagine the church knowingly

               allowing an athiest as a "god" parent.  
             If there was a instance of this in your lineage how was it entered in the baptismal record?

             Thanks Curt;... this is very interesting.

            larry

            ----- Original Message -----


            From: "CurtB" <curt67boc@...>
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2012 7:54:09 PM
            Subject: [S-R] Re: Godparent traditions

            Barbara,
            You are probably not abnormal at all.  Everyone seems to think that there is just one accepted way to do the baptism sponsorship matter,namely the way their family did it.
            There just is and was not a single tradition anywhere.  Among Catholics Canon law just requires a witnessing adult and preferrably two of them.  Some families want relatives.  Other ones want close friends or neighbors even when not of the same religion.  Baptismal sponsors come in all colors, even a few atheists here and there.

            My great grandfather served as sponsor to about forty different baptisms in his Slovak village church, but that is just because he lived next door to the church and when someone needed one, he was available on short notice.

            Curt B.

            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "genmom4" <geismom@...> wrote:
            >
            > Once again, I am reading through this discussion about godparents with great interest.
            > I have mentioned that I am 7/8 Slovak.  I have not found this godparent trend in any of my family lines.
            >
            > One line is a shepherd who moves from place to place.  Whenever there is a birth in a new town, new godparents show up.  Wouldn't you think that he'd pick a shepherd who was traveling with the group?  But, no, I don't see that happening.
            >
            > Several of my lines have godparents that are Greek Catholic when the family is Roman Catholic. I know it sounds bizarre, and no one was more surprised than I, but such was the case.
            >
            > I also have baptisms in a Roman Catholic Registry who have neither parent marked as being Roman Catholic.  But that has nothing to do with godparents, so I won't get off subject here.
            >
            > It appears that my families "break the rules".  
            > This has resulted in my having quite an open mind when it comes to genealogy.
            >
            > "Abnormal" is normal for me!
            > Barbara
            >
            >
            > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Hungarian Family Record <hfr100@> wrote:
            > >
            > > In Hungarian , sometimes Slovakian famiy records  - the same couple is usually used for the baptisms. They are usually not related . They are " koma " of the groom usually - like a favorite buddy  and his wife . If one is deceased along the way ,a relative of the " koma " substitutes for him . But with the villages so small , they could sometimes be cousins .
            > >
            > > Here's a great link from the old list days where Felix Game and Ron McComb discussed this tradition : http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/HUNGARY/1998-03/0891399425
            > >
            > > www.hungarianfamilyrecord.org
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Paul Paulochik
            The first time that I was a godparent was back in the early 80s, for a nephew, and the godmother I was paired with was an atheist. Surprised the heck out the
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 7, 2012
              The first time that I was a godparent was back in the early 80s, for a nephew, and the godmother I was paired with was an atheist. Surprised the heck out the majority of our family. But we were assured that the rule is, was, always had been that ONE godparent of the Catholic faith was the requirement. After that requirement was met, any other godparents - of whatever faith - were unnecessary but welcome. Our current parish priest claims to have performed one ceremony with FIVE godparents!

              This was re-emphasized in 2003 when we used my sister, who had left the church, as godmother to my daughter. My brother-in-law as godfather was all that was required. And it was explained at that time that the issue revolves around a promise to raise the children in the Catholic faith, so in an emergency (if anyone can come up with one??), the faith of the godparent doesn't matter as long as they make that agreement. That one I find hard to swallow, but I wasn't about to argue with a missionary...


              -----Original Message-----
              From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lkocik@...
              Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2012 1:30 AM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Godparent traditions



              Curt

              About your statement that even atheists were godparents; do you have documentation? It's just that in over 10 years doing genealogy research and 63 years as a catholic, I've never heard of this. I know just because I never heard of it doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. The role of godparents is to ensure the child is raised in the religion of the parents if the parents should die. I understand that the custom might vary a little in different villiages and especially in the more liberal world today, but I still can't imagine the church knowingly

              allowing an athiest as a "god" parent. If there was a instance of this in your lineage how was it entered in the baptismal record?

              Thanks Curt;... this is very interesting.

              larry

              ----- Original Message -----


              From: "CurtB" <curt67boc@...>
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2012 7:54:09 PM
              Subject: [S-R] Re: Godparent traditions

              Barbara,
              You are probably not abnormal at all. Everyone seems to think that there is just one accepted way to do the baptism sponsorship matter,namely the way their family did it.
              There just is and was not a single tradition anywhere. Among Catholics Canon law just requires a witnessing adult and preferrably two of them. Some families want relatives. Other ones want close friends or neighbors even when not of the same religion. Baptismal sponsors come in all colors, even a few atheists here and there.

              My great grandfather served as sponsor to about forty different baptisms in his Slovak village church, but that is just because he lived next door to the church and when someone needed one, he was available on short notice.

              Curt B.

              --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "genmom4" <geismom@...> wrote:
              >
              > Once again, I am reading through this discussion about godparents with great interest.
              > I have mentioned that I am 7/8 Slovak. I have not found this godparent trend in any of my family lines.
              >
              > One line is a shepherd who moves from place to place. Whenever there is a birth in a new town, new godparents show up. Wouldn't you think that he'd pick a shepherd who was traveling with the group? But, no, I don't see that happening.
              >
              > Several of my lines have godparents that are Greek Catholic when the family is Roman Catholic. I know it sounds bizarre, and no one was more surprised than I, but such was the case.
              >
              > I also have baptisms in a Roman Catholic Registry who have neither parent marked as being Roman Catholic. But that has nothing to do with godparents, so I won't get off subject here.
              >
              > It appears that my families "break the rules". This has resulted in
              > my having quite an open mind when it comes to genealogy.
              >
              > "Abnormal" is normal for me!
              > Barbara
              >
              >
              > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Hungarian Family Record <hfr100@> wrote:
              > >
              > > In Hungarian , sometimes Slovakian famiy records - the same couple is usually used for the baptisms. They are usually not related . They are " koma " of the groom usually - like a favorite buddy and his wife . If one is deceased along the way ,a relative of the " koma " substitutes for him . But with the villages so small , they could sometimes be cousins .
              > >
              > > Here's a great link from the old list days where Felix Game and Ron
              > > McComb discussed this tradition :
              > > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/HUNGARY/1998-03/089139
              > > 9425
              > >
              > > www.hungarianfamilyrecord.org
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            • deeellessbee
              When my children were baptized (in the Roman Catholic church), I was told the same thing - that at least/only one godparent had to be Catholic. I am Greek
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 7, 2012
                When my children were baptized (in the Roman Catholic church), I was told the same thing - that at least/only one godparent had to be Catholic.

                I am Greek Catholic and my husband is Roman Catholic, and we had our siblings stand as godparents. I didn't think the differences in Catholicism would matter anyway, but was surprised to find out about the "one godparent" rule. And even then, I figured the godparent had to be at least a Christian of some sort. Interesting that this is not even so.

                Debbie

                --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Paulochik" <paulpaulochik@...> wrote:
                >
                > The first time that I was a godparent was back in the early 80s, for a nephew, and the godmother I was paired with was an atheist. Surprised the heck out the majority of our family. But we were assured that the rule is, was, always had been that ONE godparent of the Catholic faith was the requirement. After that requirement was met, any other godparents - of whatever faith - were unnecessary but welcome. Our current parish priest claims to have performed one ceremony with FIVE godparents!
                >
                > This was re-emphasized in 2003 when we used my sister, who had left the church, as godmother to my daughter. My brother-in-law as godfather was all that was required. And it was explained at that time that the issue revolves around a promise to raise the children in the Catholic faith, so in an emergency (if anyone can come up with one??), the faith of the godparent doesn't matter as long as they make that agreement. That one I find hard to swallow, but I wasn't about to argue with a missionary...
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lkocik@...
                > Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2012 1:30 AM
                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Godparent traditions
                >
                >
                >
                > Curt
                >
                > About your statement that even atheists were godparents; do you have documentation? It's just that in over 10 years doing genealogy research and 63 years as a catholic, I've never heard of this. I know just because I never heard of it doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. The role of godparents is to ensure the child is raised in the religion of the parents if the parents should die. I understand that the custom might vary a little in different villiages and especially in the more liberal world today, but I still can't imagine the church knowingly
                >
                > allowing an athiest as a "god" parent. If there was a instance of this in your lineage how was it entered in the baptismal record?
                >
                > Thanks Curt;... this is very interesting.
                >
                > larry
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                >
                >
                > From: "CurtB" <curt67boc@...>
                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2012 7:54:09 PM
                > Subject: [S-R] Re: Godparent traditions
                >
                > Barbara,
                > You are probably not abnormal at all. Everyone seems to think that there is just one accepted way to do the baptism sponsorship matter,namely the way their family did it.
                > There just is and was not a single tradition anywhere. Among Catholics Canon law just requires a witnessing adult and preferrably two of them. Some families want relatives. Other ones want close friends or neighbors even when not of the same religion. Baptismal sponsors come in all colors, even a few atheists here and there.
                >
                > My great grandfather served as sponsor to about forty different baptisms in his Slovak village church, but that is just because he lived next door to the church and when someone needed one, he was available on short notice.
                >
                > Curt B.
                >
                > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "genmom4" <geismom@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Once again, I am reading through this discussion about godparents with great interest.
                > > I have mentioned that I am 7/8 Slovak. I have not found this godparent trend in any of my family lines.
                > >
                > > One line is a shepherd who moves from place to place. Whenever there is a birth in a new town, new godparents show up. Wouldn't you think that he'd pick a shepherd who was traveling with the group? But, no, I don't see that happening.
                > >
                > > Several of my lines have godparents that are Greek Catholic when the family is Roman Catholic. I know it sounds bizarre, and no one was more surprised than I, but such was the case.
                > >
                > > I also have baptisms in a Roman Catholic Registry who have neither parent marked as being Roman Catholic. But that has nothing to do with godparents, so I won't get off subject here.
                > >
                > > It appears that my families "break the rules". This has resulted in
                > > my having quite an open mind when it comes to genealogy.
                > >
                > > "Abnormal" is normal for me!
                > > Barbara
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Hungarian Family Record <hfr100@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > In Hungarian , sometimes Slovakian famiy records - the same couple is usually used for the baptisms. They are usually not related . They are " koma " of the groom usually - like a favorite buddy and his wife . If one is deceased along the way ,a relative of the " koma " substitutes for him . But with the villages so small , they could sometimes be cousins .
                > > >
                > > > Here's a great link from the old list days where Felix Game and Ron
                > > > McComb discussed this tradition :
                > > > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/HUNGARY/1998-03/089139
                > > > 9425
                > > >
                > > > www.hungarianfamilyrecord.org
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > PLEASE STAY ON-TOPIC (GENEALOGY). OFF-TOPIC ITEMS WILL BE BLOCKED.
                >
                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                >
              • genmom4
                Great comment, Curt! I love the story about your gr-grandfather. And, I have noticed in some records that a particular couple will show up frequently as
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 8, 2012
                  Great comment, Curt! I love the story about your gr-grandfather.
                  And, I have noticed in some records that a particular couple will show up frequently as sponsors for baptisms. Perhaps they lived next to the church!
                  Gotta love this stuff.

                  Barbara

                  --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" <curt67boc@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Barbara,
                  > You are probably not abnormal at all. Everyone seems to think that there is just one accepted way to do the baptism sponsorship matter,namely the way their family did it.
                  > There just is and was not a single tradition anywhere. Among Catholics Canon law just requires a witnessing adult and preferrably two of them. Some families want relatives. Other ones want close friends or neighbors even when not of the same religion. Baptismal sponsors come in all colors, even a few atheists here and there.
                  >
                  > My great grandfather served as sponsor to about forty different baptisms in his Slovak village church, but that is just because he lived next door to the church and when someone needed one, he was available on short notice.
                  >
                  > Curt B.
                  >
                  > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "genmom4" <geismom@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Once again, I am reading through this discussion about godparents with great interest.
                  > > I have mentioned that I am 7/8 Slovak. I have not found this godparent trend in any of my family lines.
                  > >
                  > > One line is a shepherd who moves from place to place. Whenever there is a birth in a new town, new godparents show up. Wouldn't you think that he'd pick a shepherd who was traveling with the group? But, no, I don't see that happening.
                  > >
                  > > Several of my lines have godparents that are Greek Catholic when the family is Roman Catholic. I know it sounds bizarre, and no one was more surprised than I, but such was the case.
                  > >
                  > > I also have baptisms in a Roman Catholic Registry who have neither parent marked as being Roman Catholic. But that has nothing to do with godparents, so I won't get off subject here.
                  > >
                  > > It appears that my families "break the rules".
                  > > This has resulted in my having quite an open mind when it comes to genealogy.
                  > >
                  > > "Abnormal" is normal for me!
                  > > Barbara
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Hungarian Family Record <hfr100@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > In Hungarian , sometimes Slovakian famiy records  - the same couple is usually used for the baptisms. They are usually not related . They are " koma " of the groom usually - like a favorite buddy  and his wife . If one is deceased along the way ,a relative of the " koma " substitutes for him . But with the villages so small , they could sometimes be cousins .
                  > > >
                  > > > Here's a great link from the old list days where Felix Game and Ron McComb discussed this tradition : http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/HUNGARY/1998-03/0891399425
                  > > >
                  > > > www.hungarianfamilyrecord.org
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Armata, Joseph R
                  This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia circa 1917, which says sponsors must be Catholic: One sponsor is sufficient and not more than two are allowed. In the
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 8, 2012
                    This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia circa 1917, which says sponsors must be Catholic:

                    "One sponsor is sufficient and not more than two are allowed. In the latter case, one should be male and the other female. The object of these restrictions is the fact that the sponsor contracts a spiritual relationship to the child and its parents which would be an impediment to marriage. Sponsors must themselves be baptized persons having the use of reason and they must have been designated as sponsors by the priest or parents. During the baptism they must physically touch the child either personally or by proxy. They are required, moreover, to have the intention of really assuming the obligations of godparents. It is desirable that they should have been confirmed, but this is not absolutely necessary. Certain persons are prohibited from acting as sponsors. They are: members of religious orders, married persons in respect to each other, or parents to their children, and in general those who are objectionable on such grounds as infidelity, heresy, excommunication, or who are members of condemned secret societies, or public sinners (Sabetti, no. 663). Sponsors are also used in the solemn baptism of adults. They are never necessary in private baptism."

                    Naturally, that's no guarantee that all pastors in all parishes actually followed the rules.

                    Below is information is from the current code of canon law (1980s), which says a non-Catholic can be a "witness" but not a "sponsor" (godparent):


                    CHAPTER IV.
                    SPONSORS

                    Can. 873 There is to be only one male sponsor or one female sponsor or one of each.

                    Can. 874 §1. To be permitted to take on the function of sponsor a person must:

                    1/ be designated by the one to be baptized, by the parents or the person who takes their place, or in their absence by the pastor or minister and have the aptitude and intention of fulfilling this function;

                    2/ have completed the sixteenth year of age, unless the diocesan bishop has established another age, or the pastor or minister has granted an exception for a just cause;

                    3/ be a Catholic who has been confirmed and has already received the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist and who leads a life of faith in keeping with the function to be taken on;

                    4/ not be bound by any canonical penalty legitimately imposed or declared;

                    5/ not be the father or mother of the one to be baptized.

                    §2. A baptized person who belongs to a non-Catholic ecclesial community is not to participate except together with a Catholic sponsor and then only as a witness of the baptism.


                    Joe
                  • CurtB
                    Joe, Interesting, but notice this only covers the last hundred years. In addition, all this is dispensable by a parish priest except when a bishop specically
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 8, 2012
                      Joe,
                      Interesting, but notice this only covers the last hundred years. In addition, all this is dispensable by a parish priest except when a bishop specically orders otherwise. Baptismal history is wildly interesting, and since the very early church when only adults were baptized [plunged is the greek meaning] sponsors have been sort of a tradition in search of meaning. Different times and places, and different rules. Even contemporary rules are different in Eastern and Western canon law so Greek Catholics have different rules than Roman Catholics.

                      Baptisms frequently take place in private church ceremonies when sponsors are not required at all by canon law. The minister of a valid baptism is anyone at all. Converts to Catholicism are not rebaptized if they have been baptized in any other Christian tradition regardless of minister of baptism. Even non Christians are admitted to be able to perform valid baptisms if they use water, say the words, and have a good intention.

                      Curt B>

                      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Armata, Joseph R" <armata+@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia circa 1917, which says sponsors must be Catholic:
                      >
                      > "One sponsor is sufficient and not more than two are allowed. In the latter case, one should be male and the other female. The object of these restrictions is the fact that the sponsor contracts a spiritual relationship to the child and its parents which would be an impediment to marriage. Sponsors must themselves be baptized persons having the use of reason and they must have been designated as sponsors by the priest or parents. During the baptism they must physically touch the child either personally or by proxy. They are required, moreover, to have the intention of really assuming the obligations of godparents. It is desirable that they should have been confirmed, but this is not absolutely necessary. Certain persons are prohibited from acting as sponsors. They are: members of religious orders, married persons in respect to each other, or parents to their children, and in general those who are objectionable on such grounds as infidelity, heresy, excommunication, or who are members of condemned secret societies, or public sinners (Sabetti, no. 663). Sponsors are also used in the solemn baptism of adults. They are never necessary in private baptism."
                      >
                      > Naturally, that's no guarantee that all pastors in all parishes actually followed the rules.
                      >
                      > Below is information is from the current code of canon law (1980s), which says a non-Catholic can be a "witness" but not a "sponsor" (godparent):
                      >
                      >
                      > CHAPTER IV.
                      > SPONSORS
                      >
                      > Can. 873 There is to be only one male sponsor or one female sponsor or one of each.
                      >
                      > Can. 874 §1. To be permitted to take on the function of sponsor a person must:
                      >
                      > 1/ be designated by the one to be baptized, by the parents or the person who takes their place, or in their absence by the pastor or minister and have the aptitude and intention of fulfilling this function;
                      >
                      > 2/ have completed the sixteenth year of age, unless the diocesan bishop has established another age, or the pastor or minister has granted an exception for a just cause;
                      >
                      > 3/ be a Catholic who has been confirmed and has already received the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist and who leads a life of faith in keeping with the function to be taken on;
                      >
                      > 4/ not be bound by any canonical penalty legitimately imposed or declared;
                      >
                      > 5/ not be the father or mother of the one to be baptized.
                      >
                      > §2. A baptized person who belongs to a non-Catholic ecclesial community is not to participate except together with a Catholic sponsor and then only as a witness of the baptism.
                      >
                      >
                      > Joe
                      >
                    • htcstech
                      Curt: You said The minister of a valid baptism is anyone at all. Converts to Catholicism are not rebaptized if they have been baptized in any other Christian
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 8, 2012
                        Curt: You said "The minister of a valid baptism is anyone at all. Converts
                        to Catholicism are not rebaptized if they have been baptized in any other
                        Christian tradition regardless of minister of baptism. Even non Christians
                        are admitted to be able to perform valid baptisms if they use water, say
                        the words, and have a good intention." ~ Memories of my childhood when we
                        all ran around re-baptising ourselves!

                        This has particular relevance to an earlier thread where we spoke about
                        unbaptised newborns and their burials that could not be on consecrated
                        ground.
                        I have heard empirical stories (although I haven't seen it in an entry),
                        that a midwife would baptise a newborn if she thought it would die. I'm
                        presuming that the birth/baptism would be recorded by the priest.
                        Is there a specific notation or convention in church books regarding this
                        form of baptism?

                        Thanks

                        Peter M.

                        On 9 June 2012 02:35, CurtB <curt67boc@...> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        > Joe,
                        > Interesting, but notice this only covers the last hundred years. In
                        > addition, all this is dispensable by a parish priest except when a bishop
                        > specically orders otherwise. Baptismal history is wildly interesting, and
                        > since the very early church when only adults were baptized [plunged is the
                        > greek meaning] sponsors have been sort of a tradition in search of meaning.
                        > Different times and places, and different rules. Even contemporary rules
                        > are different in Eastern and Western canon law so Greek Catholics have
                        > different rules than Roman Catholics.
                        >
                        > Baptisms frequently take place in private church ceremonies when sponsors
                        > are not required at all by canon law. The minister of a valid baptism is
                        > anyone at all. Converts to Catholicism are not rebaptized if they have been
                        > baptized in any other Christian tradition regardless of minister of
                        > baptism. Even non Christians are admitted to be able to perform valid
                        > baptisms if they use water, say the words, and have a good intention.
                        >
                        > Curt B>
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Armata, Joseph R" <armata+@...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia circa 1917, which says sponsors
                        > must be Catholic:
                        > >
                        > > "One sponsor is sufficient and not more than two are allowed. In the
                        > latter case, one should be male and the other female. The object of these
                        > restrictions is the fact that the sponsor contracts a spiritual
                        > relationship to the child and its parents which would be an impediment to
                        > marriage. Sponsors must themselves be baptized persons having the use of
                        > reason and they must have been designated as sponsors by the priest or
                        > parents. During the baptism they must physically touch the child either
                        > personally or by proxy. They are required, moreover, to have the intention
                        > of really assuming the obligations of godparents. It is desirable that they
                        > should have been confirmed, but this is not absolutely necessary. Certain
                        > persons are prohibited from acting as sponsors. They are: members of
                        > religious orders, married persons in respect to each other, or parents to
                        > their children, and in general those who are objectionable on such grounds
                        > as infidelity, heresy, excommunication, or who are members of condemned
                        > secret societies, or public sinners (Sabetti, no. 663). Sponsors are also
                        > used in the solemn baptism of adults. They are never necessary in private
                        > baptism."
                        > >
                        > > Naturally, that's no guarantee that all pastors in all parishes actually
                        > followed the rules.
                        > >
                        > > Below is information is from the current code of canon law (1980s),
                        > which says a non-Catholic can be a "witness" but not a "sponsor"
                        > (godparent):
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > CHAPTER IV.
                        > > SPONSORS
                        > >
                        > > Can. 873 There is to be only one male sponsor or one female sponsor or
                        > one of each.
                        > >
                        > > Can. 874 §1. To be permitted to take on the function of sponsor a person
                        > must:
                        > >
                        > > 1/ be designated by the one to be baptized, by the parents or the person
                        > who takes their place, or in their absence by the pastor or minister and
                        > have the aptitude and intention of fulfilling this function;
                        > >
                        > > 2/ have completed the sixteenth year of age, unless the diocesan bishop
                        > has established another age, or the pastor or minister has granted an
                        > exception for a just cause;
                        > >
                        > > 3/ be a Catholic who has been confirmed and has already received the
                        > most holy sacrament of the Eucharist and who leads a life of faith in
                        > keeping with the function to be taken on;
                        > >
                        > > 4/ not be bound by any canonical penalty legitimately imposed or
                        > declared;
                        > >
                        > > 5/ not be the father or mother of the one to be baptized.
                        > >
                        > > §2. A baptized person who belongs to a non-Catholic ecclesial community
                        > is not to participate except together with a Catholic sponsor and then only
                        > as a witness of the baptism.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Joe
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • CurtB
                        Peter, I suspenct there is no standard form. Even church baptismal forms vary from register to register and priest to priest. But I have seen notations in
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 8, 2012
                          Peter,
                          I suspenct there is no standard form. Even church baptismal forms vary from register to register and priest to priest. But I have seen notations in nineteenth century Slovak, Italian, and Austrian baptismal registers where the priest simply notes that the baby was baptised at birth by the midwife, and giving the date of birth.

                          Curt B.

                          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Curt: You said "The minister of a valid baptism is anyone at all. Converts
                          > to Catholicism are not rebaptized if they have been baptized in any other
                          > Christian tradition regardless of minister of baptism. Even non Christians
                          > are admitted to be able to perform valid baptisms if they use water, say
                          > the words, and have a good intention." ~ Memories of my childhood when we
                          > all ran around re-baptising ourselves!
                          >
                          > This has particular relevance to an earlier thread where we spoke about
                          > unbaptised newborns and their burials that could not be on consecrated
                          > ground.
                          > I have heard empirical stories (although I haven't seen it in an entry),
                          > that a midwife would baptise a newborn if she thought it would die. I'm
                          > presuming that the birth/baptism would be recorded by the priest.
                          > Is there a specific notation or convention in church books regarding this
                          > form of baptism?
                          >
                          > Thanks
                          >
                          > Peter M.
                          >
                          > On 9 June 2012 02:35, CurtB <curt67boc@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > **
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Joe,
                          > > Interesting, but notice this only covers the last hundred years. In
                          > > addition, all this is dispensable by a parish priest except when a bishop
                          > > specically orders otherwise. Baptismal history is wildly interesting, and
                          > > since the very early church when only adults were baptized [plunged is the
                          > > greek meaning] sponsors have been sort of a tradition in search of meaning.
                          > > Different times and places, and different rules. Even contemporary rules
                          > > are different in Eastern and Western canon law so Greek Catholics have
                          > > different rules than Roman Catholics.
                          > >
                          > > Baptisms frequently take place in private church ceremonies when sponsors
                          > > are not required at all by canon law. The minister of a valid baptism is
                          > > anyone at all. Converts to Catholicism are not rebaptized if they have been
                          > > baptized in any other Christian tradition regardless of minister of
                          > > baptism. Even non Christians are admitted to be able to perform valid
                          > > baptisms if they use water, say the words, and have a good intention.
                          > >
                          > > Curt B>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Armata, Joseph R" <armata+@>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia circa 1917, which says sponsors
                          > > must be Catholic:
                          > > >
                          > > > "One sponsor is sufficient and not more than two are allowed. In the
                          > > latter case, one should be male and the other female. The object of these
                          > > restrictions is the fact that the sponsor contracts a spiritual
                          > > relationship to the child and its parents which would be an impediment to
                          > > marriage. Sponsors must themselves be baptized persons having the use of
                          > > reason and they must have been designated as sponsors by the priest or
                          > > parents. During the baptism they must physically touch the child either
                          > > personally or by proxy. They are required, moreover, to have the intention
                          > > of really assuming the obligations of godparents. It is desirable that they
                          > > should have been confirmed, but this is not absolutely necessary. Certain
                          > > persons are prohibited from acting as sponsors. They are: members of
                          > > religious orders, married persons in respect to each other, or parents to
                          > > their children, and in general those who are objectionable on such grounds
                          > > as infidelity, heresy, excommunication, or who are members of condemned
                          > > secret societies, or public sinners (Sabetti, no. 663). Sponsors are also
                          > > used in the solemn baptism of adults. They are never necessary in private
                          > > baptism."
                          > > >
                          > > > Naturally, that's no guarantee that all pastors in all parishes actually
                          > > followed the rules.
                          > > >
                          > > > Below is information is from the current code of canon law (1980s),
                          > > which says a non-Catholic can be a "witness" but not a "sponsor"
                          > > (godparent):
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > CHAPTER IV.
                          > > > SPONSORS
                          > > >
                          > > > Can. 873 There is to be only one male sponsor or one female sponsor or
                          > > one of each.
                          > > >
                          > > > Can. 874 §1. To be permitted to take on the function of sponsor a person
                          > > must:
                          > > >
                          > > > 1/ be designated by the one to be baptized, by the parents or the person
                          > > who takes their place, or in their absence by the pastor or minister and
                          > > have the aptitude and intention of fulfilling this function;
                          > > >
                          > > > 2/ have completed the sixteenth year of age, unless the diocesan bishop
                          > > has established another age, or the pastor or minister has granted an
                          > > exception for a just cause;
                          > > >
                          > > > 3/ be a Catholic who has been confirmed and has already received the
                          > > most holy sacrament of the Eucharist and who leads a life of faith in
                          > > keeping with the function to be taken on;
                          > > >
                          > > > 4/ not be bound by any canonical penalty legitimately imposed or
                          > > declared;
                          > > >
                          > > > 5/ not be the father or mother of the one to be baptized.
                          > > >
                          > > > §2. A baptized person who belongs to a non-Catholic ecclesial community
                          > > is not to participate except together with a Catholic sponsor and then only
                          > > as a witness of the baptism.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Joe
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Elaine
                          I have seen several notations like this in the records for my ancestral villages. It seemed that the baby did not live long enough to be taken to the church,
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jun 8, 2012
                            I have seen several notations like this in the records for my ancestral villages. It seemed that the baby did not live long enough to be taken to the church, so the midwife did the baptism.

                            Elaine


                            On Jun 8, 2012, at 10:24 PM, "CurtB" <curt67boc@...> wrote:

                            > Peter,
                            > I suspenct there is no standard form. Even church baptismal forms vary from register to register and priest to priest. But I have seen notations in nineteenth century Slovak, Italian, and Austrian baptismal registers where the priest simply notes that the baby was baptised at birth by the midwife, and giving the date of birth.
                            >
                            > Curt B.
                            >
                            > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Curt: You said "The minister of a valid baptism is anyone at all. Converts
                            > > to Catholicism are not rebaptized if they have been baptized in any other
                            > > Christian tradition regardless of minister of baptism. Even non Christians
                            > > are admitted to be able to perform valid baptisms if they use water, say
                            > > the words, and have a good intention." ~ Memories of my childhood when we
                            > > all ran around re-baptising ourselves!
                            > >
                            > > This has particular relevance to an earlier thread where we spoke about
                            > > unbaptised newborns and their burials that could not be on consecrated
                            > > ground.
                            > > I have heard empirical stories (although I haven't seen it in an entry),
                            > > that a midwife would baptise a newborn if she thought it would die. I'm
                            > > presuming that the birth/baptism would be recorded by the priest.
                            > > Is there a specific notation or convention in church books regarding this
                            > > form of baptism?
                            > >
                            > > Thanks
                            > >
                            > > Peter M.
                            > >
                            > > On 9 June 2012 02:35, CurtB <curt67boc@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > **
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Joe,
                            > > > Interesting, but notice this only covers the last hundred years. In
                            > > > addition, all this is dispensable by a parish priest except when a bishop
                            > > > specically orders otherwise. Baptismal history is wildly interesting, and
                            > > > since the very early church when only adults were baptized [plunged is the
                            > > > greek meaning] sponsors have been sort of a tradition in search of meaning.
                            > > > Different times and places, and different rules. Even contemporary rules
                            > > > are different in Eastern and Western canon law so Greek Catholics have
                            > > > different rules than Roman Catholics.
                            > > >
                            > > > Baptisms frequently take place in private church ceremonies when sponsors
                            > > > are not required at all by canon law. The minister of a valid baptism is
                            > > > anyone at all. Converts to Catholicism are not rebaptized if they have been
                            > > > baptized in any other Christian tradition regardless of minister of
                            > > > baptism. Even non Christians are admitted to be able to perform valid
                            > > > baptisms if they use water, say the words, and have a good intention.
                            > > >
                            > > > Curt B>
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Armata, Joseph R" <armata+@>
                            > > > wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia circa 1917, which says sponsors
                            > > > must be Catholic:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > "One sponsor is sufficient and not more than two are allowed. In the
                            > > > latter case, one should be male and the other female. The object of these
                            > > > restrictions is the fact that the sponsor contracts a spiritual
                            > > > relationship to the child and its parents which would be an impediment to
                            > > > marriage. Sponsors must themselves be baptized persons having the use of
                            > > > reason and they must have been designated as sponsors by the priest or
                            > > > parents. During the baptism they must physically touch the child either
                            > > > personally or by proxy. They are required, moreover, to have the intention
                            > > > of really assuming the obligations of godparents. It is desirable that they
                            > > > should have been confirmed, but this is not absolutely necessary. Certain
                            > > > persons are prohibited from acting as sponsors. They are: members of
                            > > > religious orders, married persons in respect to each other, or parents to
                            > > > their children, and in general those who are objectionable on such grounds
                            > > > as infidelity, heresy, excommunication, or who are members of condemned
                            > > > secret societies, or public sinners (Sabetti, no. 663). Sponsors are also
                            > > > used in the solemn baptism of adults. They are never necessary in private
                            > > > baptism."
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Naturally, that's no guarantee that all pastors in all parishes actually
                            > > > followed the rules.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Below is information is from the current code of canon law (1980s),
                            > > > which says a non-Catholic can be a "witness" but not a "sponsor"
                            > > > (godparent):
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > CHAPTER IV.
                            > > > > SPONSORS
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Can. 873 There is to be only one male sponsor or one female sponsor or
                            > > > one of each.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Can. 874 §1. To be permitted to take on the function of sponsor a person
                            > > > must:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > 1/ be designated by the one to be baptized, by the parents or the person
                            > > > who takes their place, or in their absence by the pastor or minister and
                            > > > have the aptitude and intention of fulfilling this function;
                            > > > >
                            > > > > 2/ have completed the sixteenth year of age, unless the diocesan bishop
                            > > > has established another age, or the pastor or minister has granted an
                            > > > exception for a just cause;
                            > > > >
                            > > > > 3/ be a Catholic who has been confirmed and has already received the
                            > > > most holy sacrament of the Eucharist and who leads a life of faith in
                            > > > keeping with the function to be taken on;
                            > > > >
                            > > > > 4/ not be bound by any canonical penalty legitimately imposed or
                            > > > declared;
                            > > > >
                            > > > > 5/ not be the father or mother of the one to be baptized.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > §2. A baptized person who belongs to a non-Catholic ecclesial community
                            > > > is not to participate except together with a Catholic sponsor and then only
                            > > > as a witness of the baptism.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Joe
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • HFR100
                            Thanks for this info as I was in the dark on the general Catholic practices .
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jun 9, 2012
                              Thanks for this info as I was in the dark on the general Catholic practices .

                              --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Armata, Joseph R" <armata+@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia circa 1917, which says sponsors must be Catholic:
                              >
                              > "One sponsor is sufficient and not more than two are allowed. In the latter case, one should be male and the other female. The object of these restrictions is the fact that the sponsor contracts a spiritual relationship to the child and its parents which would be an impediment to marriage. Sponsors must themselves be baptized persons having the use of reason and they must have been designated as sponsors by the priest or parents. During the baptism they must physically touch the child either personally or by proxy. They are required, moreover, to have the intention of really assuming the obligations of godparents. It is desirable that they should have been confirmed, but this is not absolutely necessary. Certain persons are prohibited from acting as sponsors. They are: members of religious orders, married persons in respect to each other, or parents to their children, and in general those who are objectionable on such grounds as infidelity, heresy, excommunication, or who are members of condemned secret societies, or public sinners (Sabetti, no. 663). Sponsors are also used in the solemn baptism of adults. They are never necessary in private baptism."
                              >
                              > Naturally, that's no guarantee that all pastors in all parishes actually followed the rules.
                              >
                              > Below is information is from the current code of canon law (1980s), which says a non-Catholic can be a "witness" but not a "sponsor" (godparent):
                              >
                              >
                              > CHAPTER IV.
                              > SPONSORS
                              >
                              > Can. 873 There is to be only one male sponsor or one female sponsor or one of each.
                              >
                              > Can. 874 §1. To be permitted to take on the function of sponsor a person must:
                              >
                              > 1/ be designated by the one to be baptized, by the parents or the person who takes their place, or in their absence by the pastor or minister and have the aptitude and intention of fulfilling this function;
                              >
                              > 2/ have completed the sixteenth year of age, unless the diocesan bishop has established another age, or the pastor or minister has granted an exception for a just cause;
                              >
                              > 3/ be a Catholic who has been confirmed and has already received the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist and who leads a life of faith in keeping with the function to be taken on;
                              >
                              > 4/ not be bound by any canonical penalty legitimately imposed or declared;
                              >
                              > 5/ not be the father or mother of the one to be baptized.
                              >
                              > §2. A baptized person who belongs to a non-Catholic ecclesial community is not to participate except together with a Catholic sponsor and then only as a witness of the baptism.
                              >
                              >
                              > Joe
                              >
                            • lkocik@comcast.net
                              Joe  Thank you so much...this seems to be the final word on the subject, at least for me. Of course there are exceptions to every rule  but this should
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jun 9, 2012
                                Joe

                                 Thank you so much...this seems to be the final word on the subject, at least for me. Of course there are exceptions to every rule

                                 but this should standardize the intent .

                                larry



                                ----- Original Message -----


                                From: "HFR100" <hfr100@...>
                                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2012 1:53:10 PM
                                Subject: [S-R] Re: Godparent traditions according to Catholic Encyclopedia

                                Thanks for this info as I was in the dark on the general Catholic practices .

                                --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Armata, Joseph R" <armata+@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia circa 1917, which says sponsors must be Catholic:
                                >
                                > "One sponsor is sufficient and not more than two are allowed. In the latter case, one should be male and the other female. The object of these restrictions is the fact that the sponsor contracts a spiritual relationship to the child and its parents which would be an impediment to marriage. Sponsors must themselves be baptized persons having the use of reason and they must have been designated as sponsors by the priest or parents. During the baptism they must physically touch the child either personally or by proxy. They are required, moreover, to have the intention of really assuming the obligations of godparents. It is desirable that they should have been confirmed, but this is not absolutely necessary. Certain persons are prohibited from acting as sponsors. They are: members of religious orders, married persons in respect to each other, or parents to their children, and in general those who are objectionable on such grounds as infidelity, heresy, excommunication, or who are members of condemned secret societies, or public sinners (Sabetti, no. 663). Sponsors are also used in the solemn baptism of adults. They are never necessary in private baptism."
                                >
                                > Naturally, that's no guarantee that all pastors in all parishes actually followed the rules.
                                >
                                > Below is information is from the current code of canon law (1980s), which says a non-Catholic can be a "witness" but not a "sponsor" (godparent):
                                >
                                >
                                > CHAPTER IV.
                                > SPONSORS
                                >
                                > Can.  873 There is to be only one male sponsor or one female sponsor or one of each.
                                >
                                > Can.  874 §1. To be permitted to take on the function of sponsor a person must:
                                >
                                > 1/ be designated by the one to be baptized, by the parents or the person who takes their place, or in their absence by the pastor or minister and have the aptitude and intention of fulfilling this function;
                                >
                                > 2/ have completed the sixteenth year of age, unless the diocesan bishop has established another age, or the pastor or minister has granted an exception for a just cause;
                                >
                                > 3/ be a Catholic who has been confirmed and has already received the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist and who leads a life of faith in keeping with the function to be taken on;
                                >
                                > 4/ not be bound by any canonical penalty legitimately imposed or declared;
                                >
                                > 5/ not be the father or mother of the one to be baptized.
                                >
                                > §2. A baptized person who belongs to a non-Catholic ecclesial community is not to participate except together with a Catholic sponsor and then only as a witness of the baptism.
                                >
                                >
                                > Joe
                                >




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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