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Re: [S-R] Birth/Baptism records--need others opinions

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  • htcstech
    Nancy! You are right. My fault from the very beginning. Birth records normally state the family name and father s first name, followed by the mother. Somehow I
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 28 7:48 PM
      Nancy!
      You are right. My fault from the very beginning. Birth records normally
      state the family name and father's first name, followed by the mother.
      Somehow I understood this marriage record as Kuchar Janos, when it was
      Tutej.
      I still think Anna may have remarried.

      Peter M

      On 28 April 2012 01:37, Nancy Gibbs <bohnenstiehl1952@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > Peter,
      > I beg to differ with you on Gabor SZTRAKA's marriage record. I read it
      > as Janos and Kuchar, Anna are his parents; therefore, Janos has same last
      > name as Gabor. Am I wrong?
      >
      > I've been searching for any records for Janos and Anna Kuchar but nothing
      > so far.
      >
      >
      > >________________________________
      > > From: htcstech <htcstech@...>
      > >To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > >Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 8:39 PM
      >
      > >Subject: Re: [S-R] Birth/Baptism records--need others opinions
      > >
      > >Hello Nancy,
      > >
      > >Perhaps I was wrong in some of my assumptions, but there are some things
      > >that need further research. Sticking with Gabor at present, his birth
      > >father was Joannes TUTEJ who was married to Anna KUCHAR in 1868 (Latin).
      > >When he got married in 1892, his father was KUCHAR Janos (Joannes).
      > >Then on the death of the daughter Susanna in 1893, he went by the name of
      > >SZTRAKA.
      > >Following the birth mother's records may solve this problem. Have you
      > >traced Anna KUCHAR to see if she remarried?
      > >The family moved around a bit. I couldn't find Susanna's birth record in
      > >the Zsebfalu books (1891-1892). It may be in Kende.
      > >Also may help to scan the death records for TUTEJ Joannes (Janos). If he
      > >died between the birth and marriage of Gabor and she remarried, then
      > you'll
      > >have one problem solved.
      > >
      > >Even taking into account the nickname solution, having 3 family names for
      > >one person is really unusual.
      > >
      > >Peter M.
      > >
      > >On 27 April 2012 02:45, Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:
      > >
      > >> **
      >
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> Nancy,
      > >> Did I miss something? My notes for page 24, Line 10 has no Sztraka in
      > it.
      > >> That didn�t appear until page 94, line 85.
      > >> I believe in a previous email I wrote of �Do names� that were alias
      > names
      > >> given to branches of the family to distinguish family members who shared
      > >> the exact same name. So, yes, the name was just made up, but with a
      > purpose.
      > >> In the 1995 Slovak Census Kuchar had 1201 finds in 305 locations. The
      > >> surprise here is the ration of finds to locations. On average there are
      > >> only 4 Kuchar in each location.
      > >>
      > >> From: Nancy Gibbs
      > >> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 7:39 AM
      > >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > >> Subject: Re: [S-R] Birth/Baptism records--need others opinions
      > >>
      > >> Peter,
      > >> Thank you for all the information. It explains a lot but I still have
      > >> another question.
      > >>
      > >> If Gabriel (Gabor) was born TUTEJ to TUTEJ, Joannes and Kuchar, Anna,
      > then
      > >> where did SZTRAKA come from? (Record found at RC, Presov, Zupcany,
      > #1570,
      > >> page 24, line 10) Did they just make up another name? So far, I haven't
      > >> found any records for Gabor's parents in the FHC Zupcany RC records. I
      > >> still have a couple more to look through. I have also been told that
      > Kuchar
      > >> is a common name like Smith or Jones here in the U.S.
      > >>
      > >> Nancy
      > >>
      > >> >________________________________
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >________________________________
      > >> >From: htcstech <mailto:htcstech%40gmail.com>
      > >> >To: mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com
      > >> >Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 9:21 PM
      > >> >Subject: Re: [S-R] Birth/Baptism records--need others opinions
      > >> >
      > >> >Well that's pretty plain reading:
      > >> >I get -
      > >> >Tutej maskep (otherwise) Sztraka Gabor
      > >> >Janos es Kuchar Anna fia - Janos and Anna Kuchar's son
      > >> >(who is a) servant.
      > >> >(marries)
      > >> >Varga Maria, (daughter of)
      > >> >(father) Gyorgy majoros and (mother) Szabol Borbala (maiden name).
      > >> >
      > >> >Location - Tutej - Sztraka Gabor was from the town of Zsebfalu, now
      > >> >residing in Kende.
      > >> >Varga Maria - was from the town of Nagy Saros, now residing in Kende.
      > >> >
      > >> >Ages are very clear and both were unmarried.
      > >> >
      > >> >Witnesses: Adam Jozsef and Pavlik Jozsef - both RC and landowners or
      > >> >farmers (Telkesek)
      > >> >
      > >> >The next column states the name of the priest.
      > >> >Next column states that there were 3 'kihirvetvek' - which I think
      > means 3
      > >> >announcements.
      > >> >The final column states that the Baptismal certificate was shown. Note
      > >> this
      > >> >was on the top of the box which tends to point to Gabor. So at least
      > the
      > >> >Sztraka name has been confirmed by the priest.
      > >> >
      > >> >My comment is this: That Gabor married under the Tutej name and not the
      > >> >Sztraka name. To chase the Sztraka name further back, look at the
      > records
      > >> >for Zsebfalu ('Pocket' village?)
      > >> >That majoros wasn't capitalised as Majoros
      > >> >Anna Kuchar has no maiden name or a Kuchar married a Kuchar - which
      > wasn't
      > >> >uncommon.
      > >> >The most important point arises from this, that Tutej-Sztraka Gabor was
      > >> >probably adopted, or the step-child of Anna Kuchar who was previously
      > >> >married, taking the name of Sztraka.
      > >> >There's a story in this. Gabor Sztraka (German: Straka) is born and
      > >> >baptised in 1868. Father dies and somehow is left with the Kuchar
      > family.
      > >> >There could have been anti-german bigotry in the town and he didn't
      > want
      > >> to
      > >> >be known as Sztraka. Tutej isn't a straight Hungarian name, but sounds
      > >> like
      > >> >a derivation of Toth-e-i pronounced poorly 'Tort-hay-e' English
      > >> pronounced,
      > >> >can be TuT - and the ej replaces the hay-e . Tothei means 'of the
      > Slavs or
      > >> >of the Slav country'
      > >> >
      > >> >The other significance is that the chronology of the records is out of
      > >> >order.
      > >> >According to the book, the 1892 record is followed by the 1886 records.
      > >> >There is a note along the side of the page that reads: In this
      > chronology
      > >> >also contains the 1895 records.
      > >> >
      > >> >Hope that helps!
      > >> >
      > >> >Peter M.
      > >> >
      > >> >On 26 April 2012 10:01, Nancy Gibbs <mailto:
      > bohnenstiehl1952%40yahoo.com>
      > >> wrote:
      > >> >
      > >> >> **
      > >> >>
      > >> >>
      > >> >> I would probably mangle the spelling of the word. I was given the
      > >> >> translation from this group.
      > >> >> The record's location: RC, Presov, Kendice, #427, page 180, line 11.
      > >> >>
      > >> >> >________________________________
      > >> >> > From: William C. Wormuth <mailto:senzus%40ymail.com>
      > >> >> >To: "mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
      > >> SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      > >>
      > >> >> >Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 3:07 PM
      > >> >>
      > >> >> >Subject: Re: [S-R] Birth/Baptism records--need others opinions
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >Nancy,
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >Can you please tell us what word you have read for "alias"? If there
      > >> was
      > >> >> a name change, it is the first time I have ever heard of this. I
      > cannot
      > >> >> fathom why????
      > >> >> >I would also like to know if anyone can decipher Gabriel's
      > Godfather's
      > >> >> last name? It appears to me to be _ elaba Godmother is Vas~ko
      > >> [Vahsh-koh].
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >Z Bohom,
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >Vilko
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >________________________________
      > >> >> >From: Nancy Gibbs <mailto:bohnenstiehl1952%40yahoo.com>
      > >> >> >To: "mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:
      > >> SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      > >>
      > >> >> >Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 2:41 PM
      > >> >> >Subject: Re: [S-R] Birth/Baptism records--need others opinions
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >Michael,
      > >> >> > Here is what I know: My great grandfather, Gabriel was married in
      > 1892
      > >> >> and his named was recorded as "TUTEJ, alias, SZTRAKA, Gabor, parents,
      > >> Janos
      > >> >> & Kuchar, Anna. When his wife immigrated to the U.S. in 1902, she was
      > >> >> recorded as Maria TUTEJ SZTRAKA. (Never have found Gabriel yet) I
      > have a
      > >> >> marriage record of a JANOS SZTRAKA, same parents as Gabriel. I found
      > >> them
      > >> >> both in the 1900 Federal Census and Gabriel is listed as Janos'
      > brother.
      > >> >> Now when my grandfather was born in 1893, the Tutej was dropped and
      > >> names
      > >> >> were just SZTRAKA.
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >This is more confusing than when I started. I have not found any
      > other
      > >> >> Tutej or similiar in the Zupcany RC records, except the ones you
      > pointed
      > >> >> out.
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >Can I assume my family's name WAS Tutej and changed it to Sztraka?
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >I will keep looking. Thank you for all the information you have
      > >> provided.
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >>________________________________
      > >> >> >> From: Michael Mojher <mailto:mgmojher%40verizon.net>
      > >> >> >>To: mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com
      > >>
      > >> >> >>Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 7:48 PM
      > >> >> >>Subject: Re: [S-R] Birth/Baptism records--need others opinions
      > >> >> >>
      > >> >> >>
      > >> >> >>
      > >> >> >>Nancy,
      > >> >> >>I took a look at the pages. What I saw.
      > >> >> >>Page 22, Line 7 Birth on March 10, Baptism on 11th. Josephus
      > �+/died
      > >> May
      > >> >> 9, 1867�, male, legit, Parents: Joannes �Budej� (as I saw it) Anna
      > >> Kuchar
      > >> >> both �servi/servant, residence: Zsebfalu/Zupcany, Godparents: Mathias
      > >> >> Palada, inquilius/? and Maria Jasko, servi/servant.
      > >> >> >>Page 24, Line 10 Birth 1 April 1868, Baptism on the 2nd, Gabriel,
      > >> male,
      > >> >> legit. Parents: Joannes �Fudej� (as I saw it) Anna Kuchar, both
      > >> >> servi/servants, Residence: Zsebfalu/Zupcany, Godparents: Mathias
      > Palada
      > >> and
      > >> >> Maria Jasko
      > >> >> >>Page25, Line 36 Birth and Baptism 29 Oct 1868, Carolus �+/died 17
      > Dec
      > >> >> 1868�, Parents: Joannes �Tudej�/ �/?nery/? and Anna Kuchar /
      > censii/?,
      > >> >> residence: Kis Saros/Maly Saris, Godparents: Andres Jendrek and Maria
      > >> >> Adamkovic, both servi/servants
      > >> >> >>Page 94, Line 85 1873 Death. Susanna, daughter of Joannes �Tsdraka�
      > >> and
      > >> >> Anna Kuchar, servorum/servants. His residence; N.Salgo/?, Her
      > >> residence: K.
      > >> >> Saros/Maly Saris, female 1 1/2 years old, death caused by cholera 19
      > >> Aug in
      > >> >> K. Saros/Maly Saris.
      > >> >> >>Page 107, Line 25 Elzsebet Sztraka, Janos, father, Kuchar, Anna
      > >> mother,
      > >> >> female, residence Kis-Saros/Maly Saros 39, 18 years old,
      > >> servados/servants,
      > >> >> igne?, ?, ?.
      > >> >> >>Josephus and Gabriel have the same information: parents, residence
      > and
      > >> >> god-parents. There were more than 9 months between births. So they
      > are
      > >> >> brothers.
      > >> >> >>Carolus is born just six months after Gabriel, so there is no way
      > they
      > >> >> could be siblings. The parents names are the same but the occupations
      > >> are
      > >> >> different. The residences are different. The god-parents are
      > different.
      > >> >> >>This is a case where the use of an alias name would be called for.
      > You
      > >> >> have two couple where the individuals share the same name. So you
      > would
      > >> not
      > >> >> want to mix these families up.
      > >> >> >>Page 94 could be the first use of the alias for your Joannes and
      > Anna.
      > >> >> You should go back and look for the birth of Susanna in 1870-71.
      > >> >> >>Page 107 I didn�t catch the year or the recording of event. It fits
      > >> your
      > >> >> alias family profile. You would have to go back 18 years to see if
      > you
      > >> can
      > >> >> find the birth of �Elzsebet� Sztraka.
      > >> >> >>>From: Nancy Gibbs
      > >> >> >>>Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 8:59 AM
      > >> >> >>>To: Slovak Roots Group
      > >> >> >>>Subject: [S-R] Birth/Baptism records--need others opinions
      > >> >> >>>
      > >> >> >>>I have found 5 birth/baptism and death records that appear to
      > belong
      > >> to
      > >> >> the same family. Parents names are Joannes/Janos SZTRAKA OR TUTEJ and
      > >> Anna
      > >> >> KUCHAR. I have asked questions before about alias names and have
      > >> determined
      > >> >> that Sztraka and Tutej fit in that category. BUT dates don't make any
      > >> >> sense. I would like others opinions as to whether they think the
      > >> children
      > >> >> are all from the same family or not.
      > >> >> >>>
      > >> >> >>>All records are found at: RC, Presov, Zupcany
      > >> >> >>>
      > >> >> >>>JOSEPHUS, page 22, line 7
      > >> >> >>>GABRIEL, page 24, line 10 (my great grandfather)
      > >> >> >>>CAROLUS, page 25, line 36
      > >> >> >>>SUSANNA, page 94, line 85
      > >> >> >>>EZRSEBET, page 107, line 25
      > >> >> >>>
      > >> >> >>>Thank you.
      > >> >> >>>
      > >> >> >>>Nancy
      > >> >> >>>
      > >> >> >>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >> >> >>>
      > >> >> >>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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