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Re: 1720 Tax census is now available online

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  • HFR100
    I see that not necessarily land- owners are taxed . Quite a few Zseller ( day workers ) or tenant farmers being taxed . Would zsellérek fit that
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 9, 2012
      I see that not necessarily land- owners are " taxed " . Quite a few Zseller ( day workers ) or tenant farmers being taxed .

      Would "zsellérek" fit that catagory of renters ??

      Magda

      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello All,
      >
      > In case anyone is interested, the 1720 tax 'census' is available, almost
      > fully indexed* with the manuscript images (jpg) available via a link.
      > The story behind the 1720 tax lists is that the 1715 census was taken too
      > 'energetically' and missed a lot of landowners who should have paid tax.
      > So they did it again 5 years later. As far as I can tell, this data set is
      > quite new.
      > Why is this good? Well, it can place an ancestor in a village often before
      > the church records. It is very useful to plot where your ancestors came
      > from and particularly useful if they moved around a lot. There was a lot of
      > population movement at this time. The Hungarians moved south to re-populate
      > the plains after the Ottomans were driven out, and Slovaks/Moravians moved
      > into the vacated villages. The only downside is that they must be in the
      > taxpaying class, although some tax lists show 'rentals'.
      >
      > The 1715 records can be easily seen at the bottom of Cisarik's village
      > pages, but he doesn't show the 1720 records. You can also find them in the
      > links below:
      >
      > 1715: http://193.224.149.8/adatbazisokol/adatbazis/2
      > 1720: http://193.224.149.8/adatbazisokol/adatbazis/52
      >
      > Instructions:
      > Because the Slovak Roots messaging system won't allow me to place images in
      > this text, you should follow these instructions.
      >
      > There are 2 ways of searching the database.
      > 1. Near the top right you will see a grey box with the word 'Keres'
      > Type the surname into the field before 'Keres'.
      > Click 'Keres'
      > If you get some results then great! Otherwise - You can type a partial
      > name: eg MORAV instead of MORAVKO and all names that have MORAV in it will
      > be displayed. I would try it with the whole word first. You don't need any
      > sqiggles above letters either.
      > You should get both the 1715 listings and the 1720 listings of that name if
      > it exists in both sets of records, in a grey box that you can scroll up and
      > down if there are more than 5 results.
      > Click on the number to the right of the yellow highlighted name.
      > This will show you what it knows for a particular village.
      > It will give you the following:
      > The Megye (county) like Nyitra
      > The Name of the village and (for Debbie) some of the names that town used
      > to be called as well as a modern day Slovak name.
      > The first village name is underlined. This is the link for the actual
      > digitised page.
      > Then under that is a list in columns with some green ticks. This just shows
      > what the land was used for.
      >
      > Now you get the names of the tax payers for that village:
      > "alap településrész*adózók*" - which just means taxpayers.
      > Your name should be in that and you can start digging up the LDS records
      > for that village if they exist.
      >
      > The 2nd way is the most interesting for me at least.
      > On the left side (go back to the beginning by clicking on the link above),
      > you will see a scrollable list called 'Hierarchikus keresÅ`'
      > Find the County you are after - eg Nyitra
      > Click the green + sign next to it.
      > This expands to a list of Estates.
      > Click each plus sign one by one and it will show you the 'jaras' or the
      > districts.
      > In the Jaras or District, you will see a list of towns.
      > Click on the town that interests you.
      > Do this for every Jaras in the county as sometimes the towns are repeated
      > as the Jaras borders changed during that time.
      >
      > I hope you get all of that and hope that you get the results you want.
      >
      > Peter M.
      >
      > * Only the first manuscript page is shown. You can see the next/previous
      > page(s) by manually editing the URL.
      > Email me if you need to know how to do that.
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • htcstech
      Hello Magda, That is a good question. It gets very complicated and there is no easy answer. In my readings, the estate owners (like Eszterhazy etc) didn t pay
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 9, 2012
        Hello Magda,

        That is a good question. It gets very complicated and there is no easy
        answer.
        In my readings, the estate owners (like Eszterhazy etc) didn't pay tax, but
        the peasants who worked the land did. The minor nobles also owned or given
        land by the princes and didn't pay tax either and there would be a some
        local nobles in every village.
        As we are talking about 1720, I'm not sure that the term 'zseller' was used
        and I'll appreciate a correction.
        I made a mistake in calling the taxable as 'landowners' when I should of
        used 'land workers' or 'colonus' perhaps 'inquilinus' as well. I'm not sure
        of the distinction between the two, but I think 'inquilinus' rented a land
        plot, while 'colonus' worked on their ancestral plots without rent.
        So a zseller translates to 'cotter' and that equates to inquilinus, so they
        should not have paid tax, but as I said in my original post, some were
        listed in the 1720 records as 'renters'. so whether the
        zseller/cotter/inquilinus paid tax, I'm just not sure.
        Now the difference between a colonus and a village noble was that the noble
        didn't pay tax, but employed the inquilinus. The local church also sought
        taxes, but this was material like wood and food. Again I'm not sure who
        paid this tax either, but I suspect that all of them did without exception.
        Now the local nobles (and eventually colonus who were given their land
        after 1850 and 1867) had the law-given right to divide their holdings
        amongst their children by their will. This means that the plots of land
        became smaller and eventually too small to be taxed. I think the limit was
        1/8th of a 'hold' (the basic Hungarian unit of land). Eventually these
        people became disinherited from the land and lost their nobility!. This did
        not affect the zsellers though.
        This was the case (in the western Hungarian Kingdom up to 1848 and then
        again in 1867) when it changed during periods of land reform. There was a
        new class of citizen that formed called 'villein' - people of the village -
        who were not tied to the land, didn't pay tax but were the first to be
        drafted.

        I hope that helps and that someone else in this group can confirm this.

        Peter M

        On 10 April 2012 00:00, HFR100 <hfr100@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > I see that not necessarily land- owners are " taxed " . Quite a few
        > Zseller ( day workers ) or tenant farmers being taxed .
        >
        > Would "zsell�rek" fit that catagory of renters ??
        >
        > Magda
        >
        >
        > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello All,
        > >
        > > In case anyone is interested, the 1720 tax 'census' is available, almost
        > > fully indexed* with the manuscript images (jpg) available via a link.
        > > The story behind the 1720 tax lists is that the 1715 census was taken too
        > > 'energetically' and missed a lot of landowners who should have paid tax.
        > > So they did it again 5 years later. As far as I can tell, this data set
        > is
        > > quite new.
        > > Why is this good? Well, it can place an ancestor in a village often
        > before
        > > the church records. It is very useful to plot where your ancestors came
        > > from and particularly useful if they moved around a lot. There was a lot
        > of
        > > population movement at this time. The Hungarians moved south to
        > re-populate
        > > the plains after the Ottomans were driven out, and Slovaks/Moravians
        > moved
        > > into the vacated villages. The only downside is that they must be in the
        > > taxpaying class, although some tax lists show 'rentals'.
        > >
        > > The 1715 records can be easily seen at the bottom of Cisarik's village
        > > pages, but he doesn't show the 1720 records. You can also find them in
        > the
        > > links below:
        > >
        > > 1715: http://193.224.149.8/adatbazisokol/adatbazis/2
        > > 1720: http://193.224.149.8/adatbazisokol/adatbazis/52
        > >
        > > Instructions:
        > > Because the Slovak Roots messaging system won't allow me to place images
        > in
        > > this text, you should follow these instructions.
        > >
        > > There are 2 ways of searching the database.
        > > 1. Near the top right you will see a grey box with the word 'Keres'
        > > Type the surname into the field before 'Keres'.
        > > Click 'Keres'
        > > If you get some results then great! Otherwise - You can type a partial
        > > name: eg MORAV instead of MORAVKO and all names that have MORAV in it
        > will
        > > be displayed. I would try it with the whole word first. You don't need
        > any
        > > sqiggles above letters either.
        > > You should get both the 1715 listings and the 1720 listings of that name
        > if
        > > it exists in both sets of records, in a grey box that you can scroll up
        > and
        > > down if there are more than 5 results.
        > > Click on the number to the right of the yellow highlighted name.
        > > This will show you what it knows for a particular village.
        > > It will give you the following:
        > > The Megye (county) like Nyitra
        > > The Name of the village and (for Debbie) some of the names that town used
        > > to be called as well as a modern day Slovak name.
        > > The first village name is underlined. This is the link for the actual
        > > digitised page.
        > > Then under that is a list in columns with some green ticks. This just
        > shows
        > > what the land was used for.
        > >
        > > Now you get the names of the tax payers for that village:
        > > "alap telep��l��sr��sz*ad��z��k*" - which just means taxpayers.
        >
        > > Your name should be in that and you can start digging up the LDS records
        > > for that village if they exist.
        > >
        > > The 2nd way is the most interesting for me at least.
        > > On the left side (go back to the beginning by clicking on the link
        > above),
        > > you will see a scrollable list called 'Hierarchikus keres�`'
        >
        > > Find the County you are after - eg Nyitra
        > > Click the green + sign next to it.
        > > This expands to a list of Estates.
        > > Click each plus sign one by one and it will show you the 'jaras' or the
        > > districts.
        > > In the Jaras or District, you will see a list of towns.
        > > Click on the town that interests you.
        > > Do this for every Jaras in the county as sometimes the towns are repeated
        > > as the Jaras borders changed during that time.
        > >
        > > I hope you get all of that and hope that you get the results you want.
        > >
        > > Peter M.
        > >
        > > * Only the first manuscript page is shown. You can see the next/previous
        > > page(s) by manually editing the URL.
        > > Email me if you need to know how to do that.
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Janet Kozlay
        I would like to respond to some of Peter M s assertions regarding Hungarian nobility, ownership of land, and taxation, especially his comment that Eventually
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 18, 2012
          I would like to respond to some of Peter M's assertions regarding Hungarian
          nobility, ownership of land, and taxation, especially his comment that
          "Eventually these people became disinherited from the land and lost their
          nobility!"

          The only extensive English-language discussion of Hungarian nobility that I
          have found is "The Society and Culture of Lesser Nobility" in Ethnic
          Traditions, Classes and Communities, by Attila Paládi Kovács, published in
          1996 by the Institute of Ethnology in Hungary.

          When someone was granted noble status, this did not make him a landowner,
          and in fact most of the lesser nobles in Hungary did not own land. A great
          many were ennobled as a result of their fighting the Turks (armalists).
          "Their ennoblement did not change the status of their former servile lots,
          thus they were obliged to perform services for the landlord and pay taxes as
          before. The peasant became noble only in his person but he did not become a
          property owner" (p. 14). Nor did one lose his nobility if he "became
          disinherited from the land." Once a noble; always a noble, at least until
          1945, when noble status was banned entirely. (Nevertheless, data suggest
          that even as late as the 1950s, and perhaps beyond, those who descended from
          nobility would normally only consider others in that class as marriage
          prospects.)

          For the most part, the unlanded nobility became the middle class, often
          working in civil service positions or performing services for the
          aristocracy, such as estate management. Others took positions that were
          indistinguishable from the peasantry, but they jealously guarded their noble
          status. They were distinguished by such varied things as their title and
          form of address, their seating arrangements at church and location of their
          burial in the cemetery, and by some dress regulations. Only nobles, for
          example, were permitted to wear boots.

          Janet



          -----Original Message-----
          From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of htcstech
          Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 11:11 PM
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: 1720 Tax census is now available online

          Hello Magda,

          That is a good question. It gets very complicated and there is no easy
          answer.
          In my readings, the estate owners (like Eszterhazy etc) didn't pay tax, but
          the peasants who worked the land did. The minor nobles also owned or given
          land by the princes and didn't pay tax either and there would be a some
          local nobles in every village.
          As we are talking about 1720, I'm not sure that the term 'zseller' was used
          and I'll appreciate a correction.
          I made a mistake in calling the taxable as 'landowners' when I should of
          used 'land workers' or 'colonus' perhaps 'inquilinus' as well. I'm not sure
          of the distinction between the two, but I think 'inquilinus' rented a land
          plot, while 'colonus' worked on their ancestral plots without rent.
          So a zseller translates to 'cotter' and that equates to inquilinus, so they
          should not have paid tax, but as I said in my original post, some were
          listed in the 1720 records as 'renters'. so whether the
          zseller/cotter/inquilinus paid tax, I'm just not sure.
          Now the difference between a colonus and a village noble was that the noble
          didn't pay tax, but employed the inquilinus. The local church also sought
          taxes, but this was material like wood and food. Again I'm not sure who paid
          this tax either, but I suspect that all of them did without exception.
          Now the local nobles (and eventually colonus who were given their land after
          1850 and 1867) had the law-given right to divide their holdings amongst
          their children by their will. This means that the plots of land became
          smaller and eventually too small to be taxed. I think the limit was 1/8th of
          a 'hold' (the basic Hungarian unit of land). Eventually these people became
          disinherited from the land and lost their nobility!. This did not affect the
          zsellers though.
          This was the case (in the western Hungarian Kingdom up to 1848 and then
          again in 1867) when it changed during periods of land reform. There was a
          new class of citizen that formed called 'villein' - people of the village -
          who were not tied to the land, didn't pay tax but were the first to be
          drafted.

          I hope that helps and that someone else in this group can confirm this.

          Peter M

          On 10 April 2012 00:00, HFR100 <hfr100@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > I see that not necessarily land- owners are " taxed " . Quite a few
          > Zseller ( day workers ) or tenant farmers being taxed .
          >
          > Would "zsellérek" fit that catagory of renters ??
          >
          > Magda
          >
          >
          > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello All,
          > >
          > > In case anyone is interested, the 1720 tax 'census' is available,
          > > almost fully indexed* with the manuscript images (jpg) available via a
          link.
          > > The story behind the 1720 tax lists is that the 1715 census was
          > > taken too 'energetically' and missed a lot of landowners who should have
          paid tax.
          > > So they did it again 5 years later. As far as I can tell, this data
          > > set
          > is
          > > quite new.
          > > Why is this good? Well, it can place an ancestor in a village often
          > before
          > > the church records. It is very useful to plot where your ancestors
          > > came from and particularly useful if they moved around a lot. There
          > > was a lot
          > of
          > > population movement at this time. The Hungarians moved south to
          > re-populate
          > > the plains after the Ottomans were driven out, and Slovaks/Moravians
          > moved
          > > into the vacated villages. The only downside is that they must be in
          > > the taxpaying class, although some tax lists show 'rentals'.
          > >
          > > The 1715 records can be easily seen at the bottom of Cisarik's
          > > village pages, but he doesn't show the 1720 records. You can also
          > > find them in
          > the
          > > links below:
          > >
          > > 1715: http://193.224.149.8/adatbazisokol/adatbazis/2
          > > 1720: http://193.224.149.8/adatbazisokol/adatbazis/52
          > >
          > > Instructions:
          > > Because the Slovak Roots messaging system won't allow me to place
          > > images
          > in
          > > this text, you should follow these instructions.
          > >
          > > There are 2 ways of searching the database.
          > > 1. Near the top right you will see a grey box with the word 'Keres'
          > > Type the surname into the field before 'Keres'.
          > > Click 'Keres'
          > > If you get some results then great! Otherwise - You can type a
          > > partial
          > > name: eg MORAV instead of MORAVKO and all names that have MORAV in
          > > it
          > will
          > > be displayed. I would try it with the whole word first. You don't
          > > need
          > any
          > > sqiggles above letters either.
          > > You should get both the 1715 listings and the 1720 listings of that
          > > name
          > if
          > > it exists in both sets of records, in a grey box that you can scroll
          > > up
          > and
          > > down if there are more than 5 results.
          > > Click on the number to the right of the yellow highlighted name.
          > > This will show you what it knows for a particular village.
          > > It will give you the following:
          > > The Megye (county) like Nyitra
          > > The Name of the village and (for Debbie) some of the names that town
          > > used to be called as well as a modern day Slovak name.
          > > The first village name is underlined. This is the link for the
          > > actual digitised page.
          > > Then under that is a list in columns with some green ticks. This
          > > just
          > shows
          > > what the land was used for.
          > >
          > > Now you get the names of the tax payers for that village:
          > > "alap településrész*adózók*" - which just means taxpayers.
          >
          > > Your name should be in that and you can start digging up the LDS
          > > records for that village if they exist.
          > >
          > > The 2nd way is the most interesting for me at least.
          > > On the left side (go back to the beginning by clicking on the link
          > above),
          > > you will see a scrollable list called 'Hierarchikus keresÅ`'
          >
          > > Find the County you are after - eg Nyitra Click the green + sign
          > > next to it.
          > > This expands to a list of Estates.
          > > Click each plus sign one by one and it will show you the 'jaras' or
          > > the districts.
          > > In the Jaras or District, you will see a list of towns.
          > > Click on the town that interests you.
          > > Do this for every Jaras in the county as sometimes the towns are
          > > repeated as the Jaras borders changed during that time.
          > >
          > > I hope you get all of that and hope that you get the results you want.
          > >
          > > Peter M.
          > >
          > > * Only the first manuscript page is shown. You can see the
          > > next/previous
          > > page(s) by manually editing the URL.
          > > Email me if you need to know how to do that.
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        • tom geiss
          Yeah, I understand that my great-grandfather was a Minor Baron but that it didn t mean too much.- - And his son was listed on the marriage document as
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 18, 2012
            Yeah, I understand that my great-grandfather was a "Minor Baron" but that it didn't mean too much.- - And his son was listed on the marriage document as "VEREGNY NOTAR", (public notary), which I've read was at one time a more important position than "Mayor"?
            Tom
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Janet Kozlay
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 7:30 AM
            Subject: RE: [S-R] Re: 1720 Tax census: Nobility and land ownership



            I would like to respond to some of Peter M's assertions regarding Hungarian
            nobility, ownership of land, and taxation, especially his comment that
            "Eventually these people became disinherited from the land and lost their
            nobility!"

            The only extensive English-language discussion of Hungarian nobility that I
            have found is "The Society and Culture of Lesser Nobility" in Ethnic
            Traditions, Classes and Communities, by Attila Paládi Kovács, published in
            1996 by the Institute of Ethnology in Hungary.

            When someone was granted noble status, this did not make him a landowner,
            and in fact most of the lesser nobles in Hungary did not own land. A great
            many were ennobled as a result of their fighting the Turks (armalists).
            "Their ennoblement did not change the status of their former servile lots,
            thus they were obliged to perform services for the landlord and pay taxes as
            before. The peasant became noble only in his person but he did not become a
            property owner" (p. 14). Nor did one lose his nobility if he "became
            disinherited from the land." Once a noble; always a noble, at least until
            1945, when noble status was banned entirely. (Nevertheless, data suggest
            that even as late as the 1950s, and perhaps beyond, those who descended from
            nobility would normally only consider others in that class as marriage
            prospects.)

            For the most part, the unlanded nobility became the middle class, often
            working in civil service positions or performing services for the
            aristocracy, such as estate management. Others took positions that were
            indistinguishable from the peasantry, but they jealously guarded their noble
            status. They were distinguished by such varied things as their title and
            form of address, their seating arrangements at church and location of their
            burial in the cemetery, and by some dress regulations. Only nobles, for
            example, were permitted to wear boots.

            Janet

            -----Original Message-----
            From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of htcstech
            Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 11:11 PM
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: 1720 Tax census is now available online

            Hello Magda,

            That is a good question. It gets very complicated and there is no easy
            answer.
            In my readings, the estate owners (like Eszterhazy etc) didn't pay tax, but
            the peasants who worked the land did. The minor nobles also owned or given
            land by the princes and didn't pay tax either and there would be a some
            local nobles in every village.
            As we are talking about 1720, I'm not sure that the term 'zseller' was used
            and I'll appreciate a correction.
            I made a mistake in calling the taxable as 'landowners' when I should of
            used 'land workers' or 'colonus' perhaps 'inquilinus' as well. I'm not sure
            of the distinction between the two, but I think 'inquilinus' rented a land
            plot, while 'colonus' worked on their ancestral plots without rent.
            So a zseller translates to 'cotter' and that equates to inquilinus, so they
            should not have paid tax, but as I said in my original post, some were
            listed in the 1720 records as 'renters'. so whether the
            zseller/cotter/inquilinus paid tax, I'm just not sure.
            Now the difference between a colonus and a village noble was that the noble
            didn't pay tax, but employed the inquilinus. The local church also sought
            taxes, but this was material like wood and food. Again I'm not sure who paid
            this tax either, but I suspect that all of them did without exception.
            Now the local nobles (and eventually colonus who were given their land after
            1850 and 1867) had the law-given right to divide their holdings amongst
            their children by their will. This means that the plots of land became
            smaller and eventually too small to be taxed. I think the limit was 1/8th of
            a 'hold' (the basic Hungarian unit of land). Eventually these people became
            disinherited from the land and lost their nobility!. This did not affect the
            zsellers though.
            This was the case (in the western Hungarian Kingdom up to 1848 and then
            again in 1867) when it changed during periods of land reform. There was a
            new class of citizen that formed called 'villein' - people of the village -
            who were not tied to the land, didn't pay tax but were the first to be
            drafted.

            I hope that helps and that someone else in this group can confirm this.

            Peter M

            On 10 April 2012 00:00, HFR100 <hfr100@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > I see that not necessarily land- owners are " taxed " . Quite a few
            > Zseller ( day workers ) or tenant farmers being taxed .
            >
            > Would "zsellérek" fit that catagory of renters ??
            >
            > Magda
            >
            >
            > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello All,
            > >
            > > In case anyone is interested, the 1720 tax 'census' is available,
            > > almost fully indexed* with the manuscript images (jpg) available via a
            link.
            > > The story behind the 1720 tax lists is that the 1715 census was
            > > taken too 'energetically' and missed a lot of landowners who should have
            paid tax.
            > > So they did it again 5 years later. As far as I can tell, this data
            > > set
            > is
            > > quite new.
            > > Why is this good? Well, it can place an ancestor in a village often
            > before
            > > the church records. It is very useful to plot where your ancestors
            > > came from and particularly useful if they moved around a lot. There
            > > was a lot
            > of
            > > population movement at this time. The Hungarians moved south to
            > re-populate
            > > the plains after the Ottomans were driven out, and Slovaks/Moravians
            > moved
            > > into the vacated villages. The only downside is that they must be in
            > > the taxpaying class, although some tax lists show 'rentals'.
            > >
            > > The 1715 records can be easily seen at the bottom of Cisarik's
            > > village pages, but he doesn't show the 1720 records. You can also
            > > find them in
            > the
            > > links below:
            > >
            > > 1715: http://193.224.149.8/adatbazisokol/adatbazis/2
            > > 1720: http://193.224.149.8/adatbazisokol/adatbazis/52
            > >
            > > Instructions:
            > > Because the Slovak Roots messaging system won't allow me to place
            > > images
            > in
            > > this text, you should follow these instructions.
            > >
            > > There are 2 ways of searching the database.
            > > 1. Near the top right you will see a grey box with the word 'Keres'
            > > Type the surname into the field before 'Keres'.
            > > Click 'Keres'
            > > If you get some results then great! Otherwise - You can type a
            > > partial
            > > name: eg MORAV instead of MORAVKO and all names that have MORAV in
            > > it
            > will
            > > be displayed. I would try it with the whole word first. You don't
            > > need
            > any
            > > sqiggles above letters either.
            > > You should get both the 1715 listings and the 1720 listings of that
            > > name
            > if
            > > it exists in both sets of records, in a grey box that you can scroll
            > > up
            > and
            > > down if there are more than 5 results.
            > > Click on the number to the right of the yellow highlighted name.
            > > This will show you what it knows for a particular village.
            > > It will give you the following:
            > > The Megye (county) like Nyitra
            > > The Name of the village and (for Debbie) some of the names that town
            > > used to be called as well as a modern day Slovak name.
            > > The first village name is underlined. This is the link for the
            > > actual digitised page.
            > > Then under that is a list in columns with some green ticks. This
            > > just
            > shows
            > > what the land was used for.
            > >
            > > Now you get the names of the tax payers for that village:
            > > "alap településrész*adózók*" - which just means taxpayers.
            >
            > > Your name should be in that and you can start digging up the LDS
            > > records for that village if they exist.
            > >
            > > The 2nd way is the most interesting for me at least.
            > > On the left side (go back to the beginning by clicking on the link
            > above),
            > > you will see a scrollable list called 'Hierarchikus keresÅ`'
            >
            > > Find the County you are after - eg Nyitra Click the green + sign
            > > next to it.
            > > This expands to a list of Estates.
            > > Click each plus sign one by one and it will show you the 'jaras' or
            > > the districts.
            > > In the Jaras or District, you will see a list of towns.
            > > Click on the town that interests you.
            > > Do this for every Jaras in the county as sometimes the towns are
            > > repeated as the Jaras borders changed during that time.
            > >
            > > I hope you get all of that and hope that you get the results you want.
            > >
            > > Peter M.
            > >
            > > * Only the first manuscript page is shown. You can see the
            > > next/previous
            > > page(s) by manually editing the URL.
            > > Email me if you need to know how to do that.
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >
            >

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          • htcstech
            Thank you Janet! That explains a lot of discrepancies that I encountered and makes a lot of sense. My source for that information spoke of landed nobles*:
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 18, 2012
              Thank you Janet!

              That explains a lot of discrepancies that I encountered and makes a lot of
              sense.
              My source for that information spoke of landed nobles*:

              "*The loss of estates, in medieval Hungary, meant the loss of nobility. As
              Pal Engel writes, so eloquently capturing the insecurity of those stressful
              times (Sugar, p. 43): Sugar, P. F.: *A History of Hungary* (London, 1990)


              *Up to the 16th century, the position of the Hungarian noble rested on his
              ownership of land. If for any reason the noble lost his land, he also lost
              his nobility. Because they were non-owners (*impossesionati*), they were
              automatically also non-nobles (*ignobiles*)."*


              *from: http://kleberczderethe.blogspot.com.au/2008/06/klebercz-of-rethe.html
              *

              *
              *

              Note that the quote specifies 'up to the 16th century'.
              Thanks for the clarification.

              Peter M.


              On 18 April 2012 22:30, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > I would like to respond to some of Peter M's assertions regarding Hungarian
              > nobility, ownership of land, and taxation, especially his comment that
              > "Eventually these people became disinherited from the land and lost their
              > nobility!"
              >
              > The only extensive English-language discussion of Hungarian nobility that I
              > have found is "The Society and Culture of Lesser Nobility" in Ethnic
              > Traditions, Classes and Communities, by Attila Pal�di Kov�cs, published in
              > 1996 by the Institute of Ethnology in Hungary.
              >
              > When someone was granted noble status, this did not make him a landowner,
              > and in fact most of the lesser nobles in Hungary did not own land. A great
              > many were ennobled as a result of their fighting the Turks (armalists).
              > "Their ennoblement did not change the status of their former servile lots,
              > thus they were obliged to perform services for the landlord and pay taxes
              > as
              > before. The peasant became noble only in his person but he did not become a
              > property owner" (p. 14). Nor did one lose his nobility if he "became
              > disinherited from the land." Once a noble; always a noble, at least until
              > 1945, when noble status was banned entirely. (Nevertheless, data suggest
              > that even as late as the 1950s, and perhaps beyond, those who descended
              > from
              > nobility would normally only consider others in that class as marriage
              > prospects.)
              >
              > For the most part, the unlanded nobility became the middle class, often
              > working in civil service positions or performing services for the
              > aristocracy, such as estate management. Others took positions that were
              > indistinguishable from the peasantry, but they jealously guarded their
              > noble
              > status. They were distinguished by such varied things as their title and
              > form of address, their seating arrangements at church and location of their
              > burial in the cemetery, and by some dress regulations. Only nobles, for
              > example, were permitted to wear boots.
              >
              > Janet
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
              > On
              > Behalf Of htcstech
              > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 11:11 PM
              > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: 1720 Tax census is now available online
              >
              > Hello Magda,
              >
              > That is a good question. It gets very complicated and there is no easy
              > answer.
              > In my readings, the estate owners (like Eszterhazy etc) didn't pay tax, but
              > the peasants who worked the land did. The minor nobles also owned or given
              > land by the princes and didn't pay tax either and there would be a some
              > local nobles in every village.
              > As we are talking about 1720, I'm not sure that the term 'zseller' was used
              > and I'll appreciate a correction.
              > I made a mistake in calling the taxable as 'landowners' when I should of
              > used 'land workers' or 'colonus' perhaps 'inquilinus' as well. I'm not sure
              > of the distinction between the two, but I think 'inquilinus' rented a land
              > plot, while 'colonus' worked on their ancestral plots without rent.
              > So a zseller translates to 'cotter' and that equates to inquilinus, so they
              > should not have paid tax, but as I said in my original post, some were
              > listed in the 1720 records as 'renters'. so whether the
              > zseller/cotter/inquilinus paid tax, I'm just not sure.
              > Now the difference between a colonus and a village noble was that the noble
              > didn't pay tax, but employed the inquilinus. The local church also sought
              > taxes, but this was material like wood and food. Again I'm not sure who
              > paid
              > this tax either, but I suspect that all of them did without exception.
              > Now the local nobles (and eventually colonus who were given their land
              > after
              > 1850 and 1867) had the law-given right to divide their holdings amongst
              > their children by their will. This means that the plots of land became
              > smaller and eventually too small to be taxed. I think the limit was 1/8th
              > of
              > a 'hold' (the basic Hungarian unit of land). Eventually these people became
              > disinherited from the land and lost their nobility!. This did not affect
              > the
              > zsellers though.
              > This was the case (in the western Hungarian Kingdom up to 1848 and then
              > again in 1867) when it changed during periods of land reform. There was a
              > new class of citizen that formed called 'villein' - people of the village -
              > who were not tied to the land, didn't pay tax but were the first to be
              > drafted.
              >
              > I hope that helps and that someone else in this group can confirm this.
              >
              > Peter M
              >
              > On 10 April 2012 00:00, HFR100 <hfr100@...> wrote:
              >
              > > **
              > >
              > >
              > > I see that not necessarily land- owners are " taxed " . Quite a few
              > > Zseller ( day workers ) or tenant farmers being taxed .
              > >
              > > Would "zsell�rek" fit that catagory of renters ??
              > >
              > > Magda
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hello All,
              > > >
              > > > In case anyone is interested, the 1720 tax 'census' is available,
              > > > almost fully indexed* with the manuscript images (jpg) available via a
              > link.
              > > > The story behind the 1720 tax lists is that the 1715 census was
              > > > taken too 'energetically' and missed a lot of landowners who should
              > have
              > paid tax.
              > > > So they did it again 5 years later. As far as I can tell, this data
              > > > set
              > > is
              > > > quite new.
              > > > Why is this good? Well, it can place an ancestor in a village often
              > > before
              > > > the church records. It is very useful to plot where your ancestors
              > > > came from and particularly useful if they moved around a lot. There
              > > > was a lot
              > > of
              > > > population movement at this time. The Hungarians moved south to
              > > re-populate
              > > > the plains after the Ottomans were driven out, and Slovaks/Moravians
              > > moved
              > > > into the vacated villages. The only downside is that they must be in
              > > > the taxpaying class, although some tax lists show 'rentals'.
              > > >
              > > > The 1715 records can be easily seen at the bottom of Cisarik's
              > > > village pages, but he doesn't show the 1720 records. You can also
              > > > find them in
              > > the
              > > > links below:
              > > >
              > > > 1715: http://193.224.149.8/adatbazisokol/adatbazis/2
              > > > 1720: http://193.224.149.8/adatbazisokol/adatbazis/52
              > > >
              > > > Instructions:
              > > > Because the Slovak Roots messaging system won't allow me to place
              > > > images
              > > in
              > > > this text, you should follow these instructions.
              > > >
              > > > There are 2 ways of searching the database.
              > > > 1. Near the top right you will see a grey box with the word 'Keres'
              > > > Type the surname into the field before 'Keres'.
              > > > Click 'Keres'
              > > > If you get some results then great! Otherwise - You can type a
              > > > partial
              > > > name: eg MORAV instead of MORAVKO and all names that have MORAV in
              > > > it
              > > will
              > > > be displayed. I would try it with the whole word first. You don't
              > > > need
              > > any
              > > > sqiggles above letters either.
              > > > You should get both the 1715 listings and the 1720 listings of that
              > > > name
              > > if
              > > > it exists in both sets of records, in a grey box that you can scroll
              > > > up
              > > and
              > > > down if there are more than 5 results.
              > > > Click on the number to the right of the yellow highlighted name.
              > > > This will show you what it knows for a particular village.
              > > > It will give you the following:
              > > > The Megye (county) like Nyitra
              > > > The Name of the village and (for Debbie) some of the names that town
              > > > used to be called as well as a modern day Slovak name.
              > > > The first village name is underlined. This is the link for the
              > > > actual digitised page.
              > > > Then under that is a list in columns with some green ticks. This
              > > > just
              > > shows
              > > > what the land was used for.
              > > >
              > > > Now you get the names of the tax payers for that village:
              > > > "alap telep��l��sr��sz*ad��z��k*" - which just means taxpayers.
              > >
              > > > Your name should be in that and you can start digging up the LDS
              > > > records for that village if they exist.
              > > >
              > > > The 2nd way is the most interesting for me at least.
              > > > On the left side (go back to the beginning by clicking on the link
              > > above),
              > > > you will see a scrollable list called 'Hierarchikus keres�`'
              > >
              > > > Find the County you are after - eg Nyitra Click the green + sign
              > > > next to it.
              > > > This expands to a list of Estates.
              > > > Click each plus sign one by one and it will show you the 'jaras' or
              > > > the districts.
              > > > In the Jaras or District, you will see a list of towns.
              > > > Click on the town that interests you.
              > > > Do this for every Jaras in the county as sometimes the towns are
              > > > repeated as the Jaras borders changed during that time.
              > > >
              > > > I hope you get all of that and hope that you get the results you want.
              > > >
              > > > Peter M.
              > > >
              > > > * Only the first manuscript page is shown. You can see the
              > > > next/previous
              > > > page(s) by manually editing the URL.
              > > > Email me if you need to know how to do that.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > PLEASE STAY ON-TOPIC (GENEALOGY). OFF-TOPIC ITEMS WILL BE BLOCKED.
              >
              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
              > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
              > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >


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