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Re: 1869 Hungarian Census

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  • Judy
    Thanks for the clarification, Curt. I m a bit surprised by the land ownership implication. I would have guessed most of my people at this time were too
    Message 1 of 53 , Apr 1, 2012
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      Thanks for the clarification, Curt. I'm a bit surprised by the "land ownership" implication. I would have guessed most of my people at this time were too poor to actually own the land that they farmed. Would it have been significant that they owned land then?

      Since you seem to have some knowledge in this area, I am hoping you will take a look at a SR file I have uploaded as "1869 census occupational status". It is the second page of the 1869 Hungarian census inhabitant census. I am trying to figure out what is recorded in the first two lines of the first column. On the first line I can make out "drizitel" and on the second line "pomochik"(helper?), but not the rest. The first line is for a 56 year old widow and the second line is for her 24 year old son.

      Thanks for your help.
      Judy

      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" <curt67boc@...> wrote:
      >
      > Judy & Jim
      >
      > Hospodin in this case means "head of household" and sort of implies ownership.
      >
      > Drzitel indicates actual ownership or rights over land. It can include agricultural fields or house plots.
      >
      > Curt B.
      >
      >
      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, James Soltis <soltis242291@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Judy:
      > >
      > > Thank you.  Some of the words you have listed were the ones on the records. 
      > > Some are closely related-like so I can get the general concept.  Your help is
      > > what I need to keep going along with others who volunteered assistance.
      > >
      > > Jim Soltis
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: Judy <hogelj@>
      > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Sat, March 31, 2012 10:40:28 PM
      > > Subject: Re: [S-R] 1869 Hungarian Census
      > >
      > >  
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi Jim,
      > >
      > > Recently I have been working with the 1869 Hungarian census too. Most of the
      > > tranlated versions show Hungarian being used to record the information. However,
      > > in my village, while the pre-printed forms are in Hungarian, the information
      > > entered for the inhabitants is in Slovak for the most part. Since it looks like
      > > some of your words are close to what I have seen on my pages, I'll list other
      > > words I have figured out so that you can see if those are the words being used
      > > on your forms too.
      > >
      > > zenaty = married man
      > > vidata (vydata) = married woman
      > > slobod(y) = single (translated "free")
      > > rolnik = farmer (maybe Polish)
      > > hospodin = possibly farmhouse keeper
      > > drzital/drzitel = possibly land owner (translated "occupant, owner, possessor,
      > > holder")
      > >
      > > m for muz = male
      > > z for zena = female
      > > manzelka = wife
      > > sin (syn) = son
      > > cira (dcira) = daughter
      > > vdova = widow
      > >
      > > for literacy columns
      > > vie = can (can read)
      > > nevie = cannot (cannot read)
      > >
      > > If someone else can clarify the meaning of the words "hospodin" and
      > > "drzital/drzitel," that would be great.
      > >
      > > Judy
      > >
      > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, helene cincebeaux <helenezx@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hi Jim - Think that the vidana isn't an occupation but indicates married and
      > > >so agree that Theso was likely a form of Teresa.
      > > >  
      > > > helene
      > > >
      > > > --- On Sat, 3/31/12, James Soltis <soltis242291@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > From: James Soltis <soltis242291@>
      > > > Subject: Re: [S-R] 1869 Hungarian Census
      > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Date: Saturday, March 31, 2012, 2:01 PM
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >  
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > David:
      > > >
      > > > The census shows only the first name (given name) for children and Joka and
      > > > Theso were shown as given names of children.  The full name would be Joka
      > > >Soltiz
      > > >
      > > > and Theso Griglyok (feni) with an occupation of "vidana".
      > > >
      > > > Jim Soltis
      > > >
      > > > ________________________________
      > > > From: "david1law@" <david1law@>
      > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Sent: Sat, March 31, 2012 1:49:35 PM
      > > > Subject: Re: [S-R] 1869 Hungarian Census
      > > >
      > > >  
      > > > Dear Jim:
      > > >
      > > > It may be helpful to upload a link to the page that you are attempting to
      > > > decipher. In Hungary, surnames are listed first and before the first or
      > > > given name. Sometimes, things can get a little confusing, so it can be
      > > > helpful to view the original page.
      > > >
      > > > Best regards,
      > > >
      > > > David
      > > >
      > > > In a message dated 3/31/2012 1:43:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      > > > soltis242291@ writes:
      > > >
      > > > The Joka and Theso that I listed were first or given names, not surnames
      > > >
      > > > Jim Soltis
      > > >
      > > > ----- Original Message ----
      > > > From: htcstech <_htcstech@_ (mailto:htcstech@) >
      > > > To: _SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
      > > > Sent: Sat, March 31, 2012 1:19:51 PM
      > > > Subject: Re: [S-R] 1869 Hungarian Census
      > > >
      > > > Hello Jim,
      > > >
      > > > Joka and Thurzo were Hungarian estate-owning nobles.
      > > > Here's a link for Joka.
      > > > _http://kleberczderethe.blogspot.com.au/2012_01_01_archive.html_
      > > > (http://kleberczderethe.blogspot.com.au/2012_01_01_archive.html)
      > > > If your Theso is Thurzo, then there are 2 noble names at least. By 1869
      > > > though they probably dies out as nobility.
      > > >
      > > > Peter M
      > > >
      > > > On 1 April 2012 02:34, James Soltis <_soltis242291@_
      > > > (mailto:soltis242291@) > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > > **
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > The past week, I was able to access the 1869 Hungarian Census. The tape
      > > > > title I
      > > > > have
      > > > >
      > > > > is for Nepszamlalas, Szepes (megye). The film # is 2151177, the first
      > > > > part is
      > > > > the ending of (pokrac) Felso-Sunyava (Vysna Sunava), Felso Suniova as
      > > > > written on
      > > > > the sheet sign off. I had printed out the English translations of the
      > > > > column
      > > > > headings and descriptions from Bill's
      > > > >
      > > > > website, www.isbi.com/gen/public/. For this village, everything was
      > > > > pretty
      > > > > close to what was iin the
      > > > >
      > > > > film. However, when I entered the portion for the next village listed,
      > > > > Felso-Laps (Vysne Lapse), another language and, seemingly, another
      > > > writing
      > > > > style. Where "nene (neje)=wife, it became "feni" or "Rek Fena" which I
      > > > > assumed
      > > > > indicated wife. The writing was almost Cyrillic or Calligraphic in
      > > > > style. Out
      > > > > of approximately 168 dwellings in the village, I have gotten to only
      > > > > Dwelling
      > > > > #51. The one common occupation was "Rolnik"= farmer/field-hand.
      > > > >
      > > > > I have found my grandparents and possibly great grandparents, and
      > > > possibly
      > > > > a
      > > > > gg-grandparent, but I am stumped by some of the names. I have a
      > > > > Palkorina, A
      > > > > Shafa or Hafa?, a Joka?, a Annaka, a Palharina, a Jarico?, Theso?. These
      > > > > are
      > > > > names I have never come across before and wonder if it's my inability to
      > > > > decipher the writings properly. The census lists my great-grandfather as
      > > > > Jerico, while the copy of my grandmother's Baptismal Certificate reads
      > > > > Jacobus=Jacob or James. There is also confusion with Welent and Walenty
      > > > > (William and Walter??).
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Overall, it was a somewhat frustrating session, mainly as I do not speak
      > > > > or
      > > > > read/write Hungarian, Slovak, or Polish.
      > > > > However, I will press ahead and see what else is on the film. I would
      > > > > appreciate any comments on the unusual names and why the change in
      > > > > language that
      > > > > seems to have occurred. Thank you.
      > > > >
      > > > > Jim Soltis
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > > ------------------------------------
      > > >
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    • Bonnie
      Thank you! I will check out these leads. -Tom
      Message 53 of 53 , Apr 6, 2013
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        Thank you! I will check out these leads. -Tom

        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Joe Q" <doctor_jq@...> wrote:
        >
        > Olsov (Hungarian - Olysó)
        > Film #1792772 (Krivany) has some birth and death records of Oľšov for 1823 only.
        > Film #1794068 (Torysa) in 1828, records of birth were transcribed for 1823-1827 for Oľšov.  From 1828 on, the records of Oľšov are integrated with Torysa
        > Film # 1794090 (Šarišské Dravce - Sarisske Dravce) has records from 1775 - 1812 with a few entries for Olsov, this is the case for other Sarisske Dravce records which can be found at the LDS site covering 1753 - 1895.  However, entries for Olsov disappear about July of 1822, while those for Poloma, Brezovica, and other nearby towns continue.
        >
        > For the the year of 1823, there are a number of births and deaths recorded for Olsov on film #1792772 (Krivany 1746-1857) integrated with Krivany. But only for that year, nothing in 1822 and earlier or 1824 and later. These are Roman Catholic records.
        >
        > In the year of 1828, a block of births for Olsov were entered (“transcribed”) to the records for Torysa covering the years 1822 to 1827. There was only one entry for 1822 and the number of entries increases with each year. They are on sequential continuous pages and apply only to Olsov from 1822 through 1827. In January1828, the Olsov entries are chronologically integrated with the entries for Torysa. The record entries form1823 in Krivany are not duplicates of the “transcribed” 1823 entries in the Torysa records. It seems that there were at least two different data bases kept in different places for Olsov, but many of the names of the parents and god parents that occur in the earlier Olsov records are found in the Krivany and Torysa records.
        >
        > Additionally, a few marriages, births, and deaths are found scattered in the records of Krivany and Torysa for inhabitants of Olsov from 1800-1822.
        >
        > Apparently the records for Olsov were in a state of flux from 1823-1827. In1828, Torysa became the repository for the records of Olsov.
        >
        > I have not seen entries from Olsov in other records of towns in the area
        > of Olsov such as Brezovicka (Roman Catholic), Circ (Greek Catholic),
        > Dacov (Greek Catholic), and Lipany.  Olsov has had a church for many
        > years, the largely wooden building was remodeled after 2001.
        >
        > I have not located any census records fro Olsov, however, I will load a tax record from 1720 for Olsov to the files section.
        >
        > Dr. "Q"
        >
        > --- On Fri, 4/5/13, MGMojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:
        >
        > From: MGMojher <mgmojher@...>
        > Subject: Re: [S-R] 1869 Hungarian Census
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Friday, April 5, 2013, 12:05 AM
        >
        >       Topic  Slovakia, Sabinov, Oľšov - Church records
        >      
        >
        > Title search results
        >
        >       Cirkevná matrika, 1753-1901  Rímsko-katolícka cirkev. Farský úrad Šarišské Dravce (Sabinov)
        >       Cirkevná matrika, 1835-1897  Rímsko-katolícka cirkev. Farský úrad Torysa (Sabinov)
        >      
        >
        >
        > From: Bonnie
        > Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 11:03 AM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [S-R] 1869 Hungarian Census
        >
        >  
        > Looking for the village of Olyso (presently O'lsov) in the 1869 Hungarian Census on FHL. Can't find it listed in Saros County (although many of the neighboring villages are listed). Also can't find it in Zemplen Megye index which is where some villages from Saros and other counties were mis-filed. Researching my "Hudak" ancestors. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you. -Tom
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
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