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Re: [S-R] _do_ Names was Uploaded file of Maria Grega father Janos humenyk Gr...

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  • William
    ... Tom, I visited Brezovica nad Torysu in December, 2010, along with my 93 year old sister-in-law. She had been born there in 1917, came to this country at
    Message 1 of 4 , Mar 26, 2012
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      On 3/26/2012 6:49 PM, tom geiss wrote:
      >
      > My grandmother's brother in Brezovica Nad Torysou was listed on his
      > wedding document as "VEREJNY NOTAR" which means "NOTARY PUBLIC".- - I
      > learned somewhere that, in those days a public notary was more
      > important than the mayor?
      > Tom
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Ladislav Rosival
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 5:29 PM
      > Subject: RE: [S-R] _do_ Names was Uploaded file of Maria Grega father
      > Janos humenyk Gr...
      >
      > It was not my intention to write a complet article about the nobility in
      > Hungary. I wanted just express, that it is very unprobable that the entry
      > mentioned in the first post is saying something about a duke. And it was
      > clear that we spoke about churchbook entries - it means the period
      > 17th-19th
      > century.
      >
      > The Palatine (nandor) was not a noble title - it was a function something
      > like a prime minister.
      >
      > In Hungary there was realy only a few dukes, Hungary was one kingdom and
      > there were no duchies in it. A specific teritory is Transylvania - the
      > rulers of it had the title vajda later fejedelem this titles are also
      > translated as Dux. In years 1526 - 1711 it was a (quasi) independant
      > principality - but the dukes were elected it was not a hereditary title.
      >
      > To be complete in the period between 1048 and 1163 there was the
      > Principality of Nitra (also Tercia pars regni) with some dukes from the
      > Árpád Dynasty.
      >
      > The Holy roman empire (of german nation) was splitted into more small
      > duchies, kingdoms etc. So there were a lot of dukes (Herzog, Fürst) there.
      >
      > The Arcanum database cover about 900 years of history so 1171 occurencies
      > are about 1.2 in a year.
      >
      > Ladislav
      >
      > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      > [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>] On
      > Behalf Of david1law@... <mailto:david1law%40aol.com>
      > Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 5:37 PM
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Subject: Re: [S-R] _do_ Names was Uploaded file of Maria Grega father
      > Janos
      > humenyk Gr...
      >
      > To Whom It May Concern:
      >
      > While it is true that the word "herczeg" means "duke" in Hungarian, it is
      > not true that the duke was the highest noble rank in the kingdom of
      > Hungary. Originally, the Palatine ("nador" in Hungarian) was the highest
      > noble
      > rank in the kingdom of Hungary, second only to the king. Here is two very
      > good articles about the nobility in the kingdom of Hungary:
      >
      > _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobility_in_the_Kingdom_of_Hungary_
      > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobility_in_the_Kingdom_of_Hungary)
      >
      > _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_nobility_(Kingdom_of_Hungary)_
      > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_nobility_(Kingdom_of_Hungary))
      >
      > Both will provide a good illustration of the noble offices, etc. over
      > time.
      >
      > While the other writer may have only been familiar with Esterhazy, Pálffy
      > and Batthyany, there were certainly a number of dukes in the kingdom of
      > Hungary from the time of King Stephen in 1000 A.D. to the abolishment
      > of the
      >
      > nobility in 1919. The Latin word "dux" (from which the modern term "duke"
      > originates) appears 1171 times in the ARCANUM database (which one can
      > access
      >
      > through Bill Tarkulich's website at _www.iabsi.com_
      > (http://www.iabsi.com)
      > ). And this does not take into account the other variants in spelling
      > because of the use of declensions. One great resource for the early
      > history
      > is
      > THE REALM OF ST. STEPHEN: A HISTORY OF MEDIEVAL HUNGARY, 895-1526, by PAL
      > ENGEL, TAMAS PALOSFALVI, and ANDREW ANTON.
      >
      > I hope that this helps to clarify matters a little.
      >
      > Best regards,
      >
      > David
      >
      > In a message dated 3/26/2012 4:58:05 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      > lacoros@... <mailto:lacoros%40gmail.com>
      > <mailto:lacoros%40gmail.com> writes:
      >
      > It is true that herczeg means Duke in hungarian. But herczeg was the
      > highest
      > noble rank and I am quite sure there were no Jedzuth dukes in Hungary.
      > Also
      > this hercegs were mostly immigrants from the Austrian part of empire
      > (including Bohemia), Germany or Italy (Lobkovic, Windischgraetz,
      > Odescalchi,
      > ...) there are very few real hungarian dukes AFAIK only Esterhazy, Pálffy
      > and Batthyany.
      >
      > On the other hand Herceg is a quite common surname in Slovakia:
      >
      > Priezvisko HERCEG sa na Slovensku v roku 1995 nachádzalo 636×, celkový
      > poèet
      > lokalít: 166, najèastej¹ie výskyty v lokalitách:
      > PATA, okr. GALANTA - 63×;
      > TRNAVA, okr. TRNAVA - 32×;
      > BUKOVÁ, okr. TRNAVA - 22×;
      > PETR®ALKA (obec BRATISLAVA), okr. BRATISLAVA - 18×;
      > MALÁ VIESKA (obec DRU®STEVNÁ PRI HORNÁDE), okr. KO©ICE-VIDIEK (od r. 1996
      > KO©ICE - OKOLIE) - 15×;
      > KOMJATICE, okr. NOVÉ ZÁMKY - 12×;
      > PIE©«ANY, okr. TRNAVA (od r. 1996 PIE©«ANY) - 10×;
      > RADAVA, okr. NOVÉ ZÁMKY - 10×;
      > VE¥KÉ KOSTO¥ANY, okr. TRNAVA (od r. 1996 PIE©«ANY) - 10×;
      > DÚBRAVKA (obec BRATISLAVA), okr. BRATISLAVA - 10×;
      >
      > Herczeg gives 91 results.
      >
      > Ladislav
      >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      > [mailto:SLOVAK-
      > > ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
      > htcstech
      > > Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 10:32 AM
      > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > Subject: Re: [S-R] _do_ Names was Uploaded file of Maria Grega father
      > > Janos humenyk Grega
      > >
      > > Herczeg means Duke or Prince.
      > > You don't say whether you are going forward or back in time, but
      > > possibly Jedzuth became a Duke or a high rank in the Military
      > > equivalent to a Duke.
      > > If he was a Duke, then the records would show words like 'Illustrious'
      > > and 'Magnificent' What time period are you researching?
      > >
      > > Peter M
      > >
      > >
      > > On 26 March 2012 16:37, Elaine <epowell@...
      > <mailto:epowell%40earthlink.net>
      > <mailto:epowell%40earthlink.net> > wrote:
      > >
      > > > **
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Ron, thanks very much, this is very helpful. Just to clarify, in your
      > > > family's example, is Pal/Paul a current family head, or is he from
      > > > several generations ago?
      > > >
      > > > Several branches of my families in eastern Slovakia have _do_ names.
      > > > Your relative's example makes the most sense. My challenge has been
      > > > that in some cases, the church records seem to use the names
      > > > interchangeably. In other words, using your example, one record has
      > > it
      > > > as Paul Vallo, and the next recorded Vallo Paul. (No wonder I was
      > > > confused!)
      > > >
      > > > In another case, one of my lines had the name Herczeg (in various
      > > > spellings), but once I got back to a certain time, the Herczeg name
      > > > simply disappeared. Fortunately, I enjoy looking at all the names
      > > (and
      > > > spellings) on the page, so I noticed a very small addition on top of
      > > > the record of a Jedzut (also spelled as Jedzuth) that said
      > > "=Herczeg."
      > > > All the records prior to that event contained only the Jedzut name.
      > > > Can you think of reasons for this kind of change other than a _do_
      > > name?
      > > >
      > > > Elaine
      > > >
      > > > PS I sent these messages from my phone, rather than my computer, and
      > > I
      > > > didn't get an option of a UTF8 view....Sorry to spread chaos!
      > > >
      > > > Sent from my iPhone
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > On Mar 25, 2012, at 5:06 PM, "Ron" <amiak27@...
      > <mailto:amiak27%40yahoo.com>
      > <mailto:amiak27%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > > Elaine,
      > > > >
      > > > > As a part of speech _do_ is a preposition, pronounced doe as in
      > > > > female
      > > > deer. For those of you need a grammar refresher as much as I do, a
      > > > preposition modifies another word, in this case a name. _do_ governs
      > > > the genitive (possessive) case. The genitive answers the questions:
      > > of
      > > > whom (koho), of what (Ä oho), from whom (od koho), and from what (od
      > > Ä oho).
      > > > >
      > > > > In different uses it can carry the meaning:
      > > > > in, into, by, to the, till, until.
      > > > > From another grammar:
      > > > >
      > > > > do = preposition, answer Ä oho, to, for toward, by, within, eg,
      > > > > zaľúbený do = in love with
      > > > >
      > > > > With that basis I think of the use of _do_ forming aliases as Jones
      > > > > do Smith; Jones associated with Smith; Jones by/at Smith;
      > > > >
      > > > > In my own case of alias, I was told that if we encounter too many
      > > > > Vallo,
      > > > we are of the Paul Vallo (Pal in Hungarian). I still have to discover
      > > > that distinction.
      > > > >
      > > > > For anyone having trouble reading the Slovak accents, switch your
      > > > > view
      > > > of character encoding to UTF8.
      > > > >
      > > > > Ron
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> , Elaine <epowell@...> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Thanks for these details, Michael, that's helpful.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Elaine
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Sent from my iPhone
      > > > > >
      > > > > > On Mar 16, 2012, at 11:40 PM, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@...>
      > > wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > > Elaine,
      > > > > > > I may be corrected, but I seem to remember it as being â?oedoeâ?
      > > > > > > , it
      > > > is the Slovak word for â?oeofâ? . The Latin had the word â?oealiasâ? ,
      > > > so it is not surprising that it would have been used in the church
      > > > records recorded in Latin.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > The surname and â?oedoâ? names were so interchangeable no one
      > > > > > > when
      > > > using the â?oedoâ? name would have considered it being different. It
      > > > was a substituted aide to make sure that the correct information when
      > > > to the proper person. I especially saw this in land records where it
      > > > would be a â?oebig dealâ? that you knew who the proper person was.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > In my village if you say the use of the â?oedoâ? then you
      > > > > > > understood
      > > > there was another person living there that had the same exact name.
      > > > The â?oedoâ? was not used indiscriminately, but with a purpose.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > From: Elaine
      > > > > > > Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 9:27 AM
      > > > > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Uploaded file of Maria Grega father Janos
      > > > > > > humenyk
      > > > Grega
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Michael,
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > The situation with family names that you refer to as "do"
      > > occurs
      > > > > > > in
      > > > several of my families also. Is the term "do" a Slovak word, and if
      > > > so, how is it pronounced, "doe" or "doo"? In the church records I
      > > have
      > > > reviewed, this kind of family name has been marked as "alias," at
      > > > least in records done in Latin.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Also, in some of my families, it is hard to tell which of the
      > > > > > > two
      > > > names is the actual family name. In other words, I've seen records
      > > > that put the actual name first and then the alias, but other records
      > > > for the person have the names reversed.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Elaine
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > On Mar 16, 2012, at 11:02 AM, "Michael Mojher" <mailto:
      > <mailto:%0b>
      > > > mgmojher%40verizon.net> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Tom,
      > > > >
      > > > > > > > As for the â?oe(humenyk)â? , since there seems to be a large
      > > > > > > > number
      > > > of Grega you may have a case of a â?oedoâ? name as I call it. I found
      > > > in my village that my family has three â?oedoâ? names. Each â?oedoâ?
      > > > name is given to a branch of the family. What the â?oedoâ? name is
      > > used
      > > > to tell two people apart that share the exact same given and
      > > surnames.
      > > > So instead of using the usual surname the â?oedoâ? name for that
      > > person
      > > > would be used. Then there would be no mix up. I found the â?oedoâ?
      > > name
      > > > used in all sort of records. I found that the â?oedoâ? name was
      > > totally
      > > > an oral tradition. So you would have to ask a relative if it was ever
      > > used.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > From: Tom
      > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 7:56 PM
      > > > > > > > To: mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com
      > > > > > > > Subject: [S-R] Uploaded file of Maria Grega father Janos
      > > > > > > > humenyk
      > > > Grega
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > In researching a family named Humenik, and later called
      > > > > > > > Minnick, I
      > > > found a grandson who was told by his grandmother that the real family
      > > > name was Gregor, and Ellis Island confused a town name of Humenne for
      > > > the last name and they took Humenik as their name. The marriage
      > > record
      > > > for his grandmother indicated date of birth as 27July1894 in
      > > > Hankovce(Hankoc on Hungarian records). Looked on FamilySearch.org,
      > > and
      > > > found a 01Aug1894 record for Maria Grega father Janos(humenyk) Grega.
      > > > Does anyone see a meaning for the not capitalized humenyk on the
      > > > baptismal record? Thanks, Tom
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
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      Tom,

      I visited Brezovica nad Torysu in December, 2010, along with my 93 year
      old sister-in-law. She had been born there in 1917, came to this
      country at the age of three. She had never returned prior to this
      visit. We met a distant relative who had no recollection of her. Her
      maiden name was Klembara.

      Bill Brna


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