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Re: [S-R] Digest Number 4079

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  • Mary T
    Sorry the whole digest repeats. I couldnt figure out how to delete. First of all, back then, there was no insurance . Immigrants purchased burial aid from the
    Message 1 of 1 , Feb 2 7:17 PM
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      Sorry the whole digest repeats. I couldnt figure out how to delete.
      First of all, back then, there was no "insurance". Immigrants purchased burial aid from the church or from an ethnic organization.  That's the only insurance I am aware of.
       
      I think the problem of age and misreprenting age had more to do with the celebration or non-celebration of birthdays. Some groups celebrated names day, and no idea what day they were born.
      My g-g-m always said she was born Jan 1. My research shows Oct.
      She never got the year right because apparently she didnt want to tell her children how old she was!
      Mary


      ________________________________
      From: "SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com" <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 3:48 AM
      Subject: [S-R] Digest Number 4079


      Czech and Slovak Republic Genealogy
      Messages In This Digest (4 Messages)
      1a.
      Re: Birthdates From: elevans1
      1b.
      Re: Birthdates From: deeellessbee
      1c.
      Re: Birthdates From: Elaine
      2a.
      Re: Samuel Pollak From: Cyndi Norwitz View All Topics | Create New Topic Messages
      1a.
      Re: Birthdates
      Posted by: "elevans1" rue.ee.4gel41n3@...   elevans1
      Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:40 am (PST)


      I've heard somewhere, maybe another list, that when our ancestors came to America, and applied for life insurance, etc, they discovered that maybe if they were 52 years old, well, insurance was cheaper if they said they were 48 years old. So they "made up" a birth date that would get them cheaper insurance. This doesn't address whether they actually knew their birth dates or not, but it may explain why there are sometimes discrepancies between the European church birth record, and a listing of their birth date in American records.

      My great-grandmother (born around 1860) must have found the fountain of youth. Following her thru American census records, every 10 years she would age only 5 years! I'm thinking she was just guessing how old she was.

      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, "patskanovo" <ddhalusker@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > This may have bee touched on in the past but did any of our people know how old they were? Was it a language thing or did they truley not know?
      >
      > With the exception of maybe a hand full of my family it seems unlikely to me that no one knew when they were born or how old they were.....Any thoughts on this?
      >
      > Dennis
      >


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      Messages in this topic (10)
      1b.
      Re: Birthdates
      Posted by: "deeellessbee" deeellessbee@...   deeellessbee
      Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:51 am (PST)


      That's funny about your g'grandmother! I too have an ancestor that from one census to the next only aged two years!

      I think it's quite reasonable that we find differing or non-specific birthdates. Let's face it, no one remembers their own day of birth. We know what we are told. Today, more attention is paid to this type of thing, and official records are kept from the moment we are born, right down to the time of birth as well as date. We get a nice little certificate from the hospital to take home with us.

      Back then, when there was not the emphasis on these records, and when so many of our ancestors didn't read or write, while there may have been a notation in the church records, the family, I'm sure, just went from memory, which we all know is not certain. Heck, I always get the birthdate of my daughter wrong, much to her agitation, (at which point I remind her that I was in agonizing labor with her for 22 hours and one date just ran into the next - ya gotta remind your kids of these things every now and then!). And I only have two kids - imagine if you had 10 or more kids over 20 years!

      One more note. The date discrepancy is not always a matter of immigration. I've got a family line that goes back in this country almost 400 years, and there are discrepancies in dates with family members in the early 1900's. And one ancestor in the 1800's could not recall her marriage date. On an affadavit she estimated the date, as did another witness to her marriage, by also estimating the death date of a first husband! Seems the men in her life were not that memorable... .

      Debbie

      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, "elevans1" <rue.ee.4gel41n3@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > I've heard somewhere, maybe another list, that when our ancestors came to America, and applied for life insurance, etc, they discovered that maybe if they were 52 years old, well, insurance was cheaper if they said they were 48 years old. So they "made up" a birth date that would get them cheaper insurance. This doesn't address whether they actually knew their birth dates or not, but it may explain why there are sometimes discrepancies between the European church birth record, and a listing of their birth date in American records.
      >
      > My great-grandmother (born around 1860) must have found the fountain of youth. Following her thru American census records, every 10 years she would age only 5 years! I'm thinking she was just guessing how old she was.
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, "patskanovo" <ddhalusker@ > wrote:
      > >
      > > This may have bee touched on in the past but did any of our people know how old they were? Was it a language thing or did they truley not know?
      > >
      > > With the exception of maybe a hand full of my family it seems unlikely to me that no one knew when they were born or how old they were.....Any thoughts on this?
      > >
      > > Dennis
      > >
      >


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      Messages in this topic (10)
      1c.
      Re: Birthdates
      Posted by: "Elaine" epowell@...   artseppaa
      Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:49 pm (PST)


      Debbie,

      You bring up some very interesting points about dates and memory.

      I discovered an interesting date anomaly in my family this past fall when I visited Malá Vieska, the birthplace of my grandfather. In the 1908 ship record when he came to the US with his mother, his age was listed as 5. That "confirmed" for me his birth information as we knew it, which was August 15, 1903.

      However, when my guide (the incredible Michal Razus!) took me to the administrative office with the index of birth records (with very helpful staff), we learned that he was born on July 15, 1901.

      My first thing to check was his name day (John) but there does not seem to be a connection with that.
      Janos (Hungarian) name day=December 27
      Jan (Slovak) name day=June 24

      I can understand a mother mixing up July and August (hot, summer...). Interesting that the 15th was the same.

      But 2 years difference??

      My first instinct is to look for a reason, and money is usually a possibility. My ggrandmother was coming to America by ship--does anyone know if there was a different cost for a 5 year old versus a 7 year old? In some of our discussions a while back, there was info about the cost of passage on a ship, but nothing about the cost for children of various ages.

      I'd appreciate any ideas on this!

      Elaine

      On Jan 25, 2012, at 12:51 PM, "deeellessbee" <deeellessbee@ yahoo.com> wrote:

      > That's funny about your g'grandmother! I too have an ancestor that from one census to the next only aged two years!
      >
      > I think it's quite reasonable that we find differing or non-specific birthdates. Let's face it, no one remembers their own day of birth. We know what we are told. Today, more attention is paid to this type of thing, and official records are kept from the moment we are born, right down to the time of birth as well as date. We get a nice little certificate from the hospital to take home with us.
      >
      > Back then, when there was not the emphasis on these records, and when so many of our ancestors didn't read or write, while there may have been a notation in the church records, the family, I'm sure, just went from memory, which we all know is not certain. Heck, I always get the birthdate of my daughter wrong, much to her agitation, (at which point I remind her that I was in agonizing labor with her for 22 hours and one date just ran into the next - ya gotta remind your kids of these things every now and then!). And I only have two kids - imagine if you had 10 or more kids over 20 years!
      >
      > One more note. The date discrepancy is not always a matter of immigration. I've got a family line that goes back in this country almost 400 years, and there are discrepancies in dates with family members in the early 1900's. And one ancestor in the 1800's could not recall her marriage date. On an affadavit she estimated the date, as did another witness to her marriage, by also estimating the death date of a first husband! Seems the men in her life were not that memorable... .
      >
      > Debbie
      >
      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, "elevans1" <rue.ee.4gel41n3@ ...> wrote:
      > >
      > > I've heard somewhere, maybe another list, that when our ancestors came to America, and applied for life insurance, etc, they discovered that maybe if they were 52 years old, well, insurance was cheaper if they said they were 48 years old. So they "made up" a birth date that would get them cheaper insurance. This doesn't address whether they actually knew their birth dates or not, but it may explain why there are sometimes discrepancies between the European church birth record, and a listing of their birth date in American records.
      > >
      > > My great-grandmother (born around 1860) must have found the fountain of youth. Following her thru American census records, every 10 years she would age only 5 years! I'm thinking she was just guessing how old she was.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, "patskanovo" <ddhalusker@ > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > This may have bee touched on in the past but did any of our people know how old they were? Was it a language thing or did they truley not know?
      > > >
      > > > With the exception of maybe a hand full of my family it seems unlikely to me that no one knew when they were born or how old they were.....Any thoughts on this?
      > > >
      > > > Dennis
      > > >
      > >
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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      Messages in this topic (10)
      2a.
      Re: Samuel Pollak
      Posted by: "Cyndi Norwitz" cyndi@...   cyndinorwitz
      Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:41 pm (PST)



      On Jan 24, 2012, at 6:26 AM, Robert Pollak wrote:

      > Hi Cyndi,
      >
      > I have not search Jewish records yet. The earliest records of my POLLAK line are from Spisske Podhradie in the 1700's. The POLLAK family was Evangelical at that time. One of the sons married a Catholic girl in Spsska Nova Ves and the family has been Catholic since then.

      Nodding. It seems to be a very common surname. Just means "from Poland."

      > I have a picture of my grandfather and he looked Jewish. I had my DNA tested and I asked if there was any possibility that my POLLAK ancestors were Jewish (not that it would matter to me) and they replied there was no indication in the DNA that I was Jewish.

      Interesting!

      > Where did your POLLAK line originate?

      Kotesova (Kotesso). It's in Trencin county. But I'm only back to the mid-1800's (well the people would have been born in the early 1800's).

      Cyndi

      ____________ ___
      Cyndi Norwitz
      Petaluma, California
      cyndi@norwitz. net

      Kotesova, Slovakia: DEUTELBAUM, ZELENKA
      Budapest, Hungary: DEUTELBAUM, KARPATI, GROSZMANN
      Cleveland, OH & Chicago, IL & Pittsburgh, PA: DEUTELBAUM
      Boston, MA: KARPATI
      Chudnov, Ukraine: DUBIN
      Cherykov, Belarus & Newark, New Jersey: FRIEDMAN
      Warsaw, Poland & Bronx, New York: NAIMSKY
      Lomza, Poland & Washington DC: NITOWITZ, NORWITZ
      Lativa & Baltimore, MD: GOLDSTEIN
      Lithuana: SHAVEL, SHAVELLE

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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