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[S-R] Re: JANKANICZ Birth Record

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  • creativelr
    Wow, I sure didn t mean to cause any heated discussion over the subject of legitimacy! I m so sorry. First, Carl, thanks for even posting deflora because
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 30, 2012
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      Wow, I sure didn't mean to cause any heated discussion over the subject of legitimacy! I'm so sorry.

      First, Carl, thanks for even posting "deflora" because that's not what I read and I agree with you that is what it says. Because of this discussion I looked up the meaning and I found "no longer a virgin." I'm sure I could find many more definitions, including the one you have offered, so I do not mean to disagree with you, but I was focused on everything that was under the name already knowing this was an illegitimate child. Carl, even by interpreting one word, you are helping me better my Latin and get better at reading the handwriting! Both are lacking, hence my requests of this list.

      I appreciate EVERYONE's input when trying to understand a record. Often what IS written is extremely important in leading me to the next person, next generation, or even matching the correct births, marriages, deaths. English is my first language. I appreciate anyone who takes the time to respond to anyone else's query, especially when I'm asking for others to translate and interpret to explain what they see because I simply cannot read the handwriting.

      My forte is in FINDING correct records, not in reading the handwriting. May I ask that if anyone, is interested in working off-list, please email me privately.

      Again, my apologies for causing conflict. And thank you to all who contributed to this thread!

      Linda

      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" <curt67boc@...> wrote:
      >
      > This is not a case where the family chooses anything. These are both sacramental and civil records and the names of parents are listed by the baptizing priest. Legitimacy is a question of law which originated in Roman law and continued well into the twentieth century in most societies. A mother was known because she gave birth to a child. Inheritance of goods and land however came from a father unless he were already dead. By Roman law a child was illegitimate, that is, unable to inherit, because no one could be demonstrated to be the father if the mother was unmarried. This was before modern blood typing or DNA testing to proove fatherhood. Any child born during a marriage was by law considered legitimate even if it was known that the husband was NOT the father.
      >
      > Latin is indeed Latin. There are many words in Latin that can be used to describe an unmarried mother, some of them really pejorative and unpleasant. The word deflora was specifically invented by Christians to include in sacramental records, as well as sermons, because it was thought to be a pleasant and neutral word that did not reflect on the salvation of souls of the child or mother.
      >
      > Curt B.
      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "tom geiss" <tomfgurka@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Since all born out of wedlock are listed as "illigetimate", I suspect that the family member that gave information in this case "WANTED TO MAKE A STATEMENT", to express his or her disapproval.
      > > My great grandma had two children before she married the head of the household. (There again, the HOUSE NUMBER, which was the same as the family house number was my clue that she was the same "Maria Pastorek". In the two "illigetimates" she had below her name "Servilis" which, I presume meant that she was a MAID.??
      > > Tom
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: Carl
      > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 3:07 PM
      > > Subject: [S-R] Re: JANKANICZ Birth Record
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Kurt & Linda,
      > > I'm sorry that we disagree but Latin is Latin. The word "deflora" means to deflower and to dishonor. We can't change the meaning of a word just because we are uncomfortable with what it says. This was a church record and in the eyes of the church, Maria had committed a sin. These types of notations are very common in the church records. Children of unmarried women are marked as illegitimate or spurious. The word "filia" means "daughter of" and her father is listed under her name.
      > >
      > > It seems that illegitimate children were very common (much more than I would have guessed). I have found some towns where many, many of the women having children were unmarried. So I do agree with you that we don't know what the community standards were around such events or what the family viewpoint was. In any case, it makes for a more interesting family history. :>)
      > >
      > > Carl
      > >
      > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "creativelr" <CreativeLR@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Thanks Curt!
      > > >
      > > > And Karl, I think I agree with Curt since this is VERY common in the church record books. We may never know the circumstances around individual children being born out of wedlock, nor the community or family views of such. But, since I usually don't see much more than religion under a name, I wondered if it provided more information regarding this birth.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Thank you!
      > > >
      > > > Linda
      > > >
      > > > "
      > > > locals must have been quite accustomed to this.
      > > > >
      > > > > Curt B.
      > > > > "
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
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