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[S-R] Re: Translation Help - Trnava/Brestovany Marriage Record

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  • CurtB
    Remember that Latin adjectives have to agree in gender, number and case so you can tell what is being modified. Here is a translation of the complete passage
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 8, 2011
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      Remember that Latin adjectives have to agree in gender, number and case so you can tell what is being modified.
      Here is a translation of the complete passage in question. The entry is not punctuated, so it is just a long run-on sentence so common in Latin. Joseph is apparently a minor according to contemporary canon or civil law and requires the permission of his father to marry.

      It says:

      I joined in marriage the honest youth [previously unmarried] Joseph, son of Martin Gabriel, being a minor youth unable [to marry], but the Reverend pastor of his parish of Magensis sent the permission [of his father], with the honest virgin [never married] Elizagbeth daughter of ----- ------ from Kurkosc, with Joseph Runza as witness.

      Curt B.

      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@...> wrote:
      >
      > min.or V 1 1 PRES PASSIVE IND 1 S
      > mino, minare, minavi, minatus V TRANS [DXXDS] Late lesser
      > drive (animals); impel, push, force; threaten?;
      >
      > minor, minari, minatus sum V DEP [XXXBO]
      > threaten, speak/act menacingly; make threatening movement; give indication of;
      >
      > minor N 3 1 NOM S M
      > minor N 3 1 VOC S M
      > minor, minoris N M [XXXDX] lesser
      > those inferior in rank/grade/age, subordinate; descendants (pl.);
      >
      > min.or ADJ 1 1 NOM S C COMP
      > min.or ADJ 1 1 VOC S C COMP
      > parvus, parva -um, minor -or -us, minimus -a -um ADJ [XXXAX]
      > small, little, cheap; unimportant; (SUPER) smallest, least;
      >
      > Minoritatas is less than legal age.
      >
      > From: MagTon Media
      > Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 4:57 PM
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [S-R] Re: Translation Help - Trnava/Brestovany Marriage Record
      >
      >
      > Continuation of " Gabriel Minorinus (minor meaning 'smaller of') --
      >
      > What It means that the groom is a MINOR - under the age of 18 in Hungary . I do not know what a minor constitutes in Slovakia but in France at this time period ( 1700's ) , a MINOR was under 21 years old . That is my take on it .
      >
      > Magda
      >
      > --- In mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hello all,
      > > These things play on my mind.
      > > So at 3am, I wake up enough to realise that Elisabeth is entered 'correctly'
      > > as First Name, Fathers Name, Family Name with filia - as these records
      > > should be by default.
      > > Compare that to 'Josephus Martini condam Gabriel Minorius' - the difference
      > > rests on the meaning and usage of 'condam' and 'minorius'.
      > > My gut feeling is that if a scribe uses 'condam', then 'minorius' should be
      > > used as an operating pair.
      > > Condam, a VERB, translates as "first-person singular future active
      > > indicative of condō <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/condo#Latin>"
      > > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/condam
      > > And Condo means "
      > >
      > > 1. I put together <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/put_together>.
      > > 2. I build <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/build>,
      > > establish<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/establish>;
      > > form <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/form>,
      > > fashion<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fashion>;
      > > make <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/make>,
      > > construct<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/construct>
      > > ."
      > >
      > > If the priest could not find any records (as what I think the 2nd line
      > > states), then he 'makes' or 'puts together' Josephus as the son of Martini
      > > GABRIEL; Josephus being the minor.
      > >
      > > So in the end, and ignoring other entries, I'm siding with Larry.
      > >
      > > Peter
      > >
      > > On 7 October 2011 05:29, <lkocik@> wrote:
      > >
      > > > **
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Peter
      > > >
      > > > Thanks for your reply.
      > > >
      > > > I got "Joseph, son of Martin from the records of my ancestral villiage.
      > > >
      > > > It would be the sons given name followed by the fathers and the
      > > > fathers having an "i" attached on the end. As a matter of fact, it wasn't
      > > > consistantly used, only by certain scribes at different times. Other scribes
      > > > would use the more common "filius" to designate "son of".
      > > >
      > > > If I'm right, then how would Gabriel fit in?This is very interesting; I
      > > > know how it works in my ancestral villiage, but maybe this scribe is doing
      > > > something different.
      > > >
      > > > I have to agree with your take on Minorius, ...which I've never seen
      > > > before this, but seems obvious .
      > > >
      > > > Hopefully someone else can offer more on the subject.
      > > > So to Dawn; what I offered was only a suggestion of something to look into.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ...Something childish I remember from being an altar boy...
      > > >
      > > > "latin's a dead language, it's plain enouogh to see,
      > > >
      > > > it killed off all the Romans,
      > > >
      > > > and now it's killing me"
      > > >
      > > > respectfully;
      > > >
      > > > Larry
      > > >
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > >
      > > > From: "htcstech" <htcstech@>
      > > > To: mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com
      > > > Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 2:38:52 AM
      > > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Translation Help - Trnava/Brestovany Marriage Record
      > > >
      > > > Hello Larry,
      > > >
      > > > You could be right. There was no 'filius' - meaning son of, but I did
      > > > decode
      > > > Minorius - which is repeated legibly in an entry below. So I read 'Gabriel
      > > > Minorius' as 'Gabriel filius' or Son of Gabriel. I can't see how you can
      > > > get
      > > > Josephus, the son of Martini and 'Gabriel' as a family name from the
      > > > reading
      > > > - there's no other similar entry.
      > > >
      > > > I do agree that each scribe has their own way, especially in these decades.
      > > >
      > > > But I did read other entries on the pages before I made that conclusion.
      > > >
      > > > Example: The next entry below says: "Martinus Kubrisky filius' and on the
      > > > previous page it is common to see last names as the 2nd name in the entry.
      > > > This is really different to what it should be: 'First Name, Father's name
      > > > and Surname, son of'
      > > >
      > > > Sometimes the priest or scribe begins with the bride, so there is no
      > > > consistency in these records.
      > > >
      > > > Good catch on Juvenus btw.
      > > >
      > > > Peter
      > > >
      > > > On 6 October 2011 16:42, <lkocik@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > > **
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Peter
      > > > >
      > > > > Great insight on translating, but I would beg to differ on just a few
      > > > > things;
      > > > >
      > > > > "Josephus Martini" would be Joseph, son of Martin. Also Joseph[us]
      > > > > designated as Juvenis would mean he is a young single man, as opposed to
      > > > > Vidus, a widower.
      > > > >
      > > > > I have a different take on condam...I would think the root of this would
      > > >
      > > > > be "conditio" meaning status/condition and most commonly used to denote a
      > > >
      > > > > commoner as opposed to nobilis [nobility]
      > > > > This is only my opinion.
      > > > >
      > > > > The only thing I can state for certain is; ...each scribe had their own
      > > >
      > > > > peculiar way of transcribing, and it is probably best to try and study
      > > > more
      > > > > entries by this scribe to figure out his manner.
      > > > >
      > > > > Larry
      > > > >
      > > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > >
      > > > > From: "htcstech" <htcstech@>
      > > > > To: mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com
      > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2011 7:40:50 PM
      > > > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Translation Help - Trnava/Brestovany Marriage Record
      > > > >
      > > > > Hello Dawn,
      > > > >
      > > > > I worked backwards on this.
      > > > >
      > > > > Keep in mind that in Latin, order of names is Christian followed by
      > > > Family
      > > > > names.
      > > > > There should be no repetitions of family names in these records.
      > > > >
      > > > > Well 'filia coram Josephus RUNZA' meaning 'daughter, before Joseph
      > > > RUNZA'
      > > > > - RUNZA I think was the witness to the marriage as he is listed
      > > > elsewhere.
      > > > >
      > > > > She is 'ex Kurkocz' or 'from Kurkocz', so I'm presuming that her family
      > > > > came
      > > > > from there as well.
      > > > > The other words after Elisabetha spells 'Pounius Kojik' but the P could
      > > > be
      > > > > a
      > > > > J as it seems to be written over.
      > > > > So the last line reads: 'with Elizabeth, daughter of Jounius KOJIK from
      > > > > Kurkocz, before Joseph RUNZA'
      > > > >
      > > > > 2nd line: I can't make out the full meaning as ecclesiastical latin has
      > > > > greek roots with latin endings, and also the meanings may not be as
      > > > strict
      > > > > and have to be interpreted within the context.
      > > > >
      > > > > 'frustratum' means 'in vain, mistakenly, without reason'
      > > > > 'traditio' means 'betrayal'
      > > > > 'Dominus' means 'master'
      > > > > 'Copulati' means marriage
      > > > > 'Parocso' parish? Note the capital letters!
      > > > > 'Maginti' - no idea - maybe a place?
      > > > > 'uj' means 'new' in Hungarian
      > > > >
      > > > > So I think that the 2nd line reads " frustratum Dominus Copulati Parocus
      > > > uj
      > > > >
      > > > > Maginti traditam et ab exdeterna' as my best guess.
      > > > > It probably means that he couldn't read/find records of the father of the
      > > >
      > > > > groom, possibly from another church parish. But this is only a guess.
      > > > >
      > > > > The first line "Copulatus i hony (honestus) invenis (Marriage of: The
      > > > > honestly found (I have found as honest), Josephus MARTINI -"
      > > > > 'Condam' from the verb root 'condo' meaning 'put together' in this case
      > > > > 'relation'
      > > > > Continues " Gabriel Minorinus (minor meaning 'smaller of')
      > > > >
      > > > > So I think this record is of the MARTINI family. There is no mention of
      > > > the
      > > > >
      > > > > groom's mother and I think that the bride's father is Joannus or possibly
      > > >
      > > > > Julius KOJIK.
      > > > >
      > > > > Peter
      > > > >
      > > > > On 6 October 2011 08:43, dmgnew <dmg-tx@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > > **
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Hello Slovak-Roots Members,
      > > > > > I could use some help trying to translate/decipher a marriage record.
      > > > It
      > > > > > can be found on the Family Search site at:
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-14369-38319-35?cc=1554443&wc=10601938
      > > > > >
      > > > > > It's the second entry for 1789 on page 307. I know that it starts off
      > > > > with
      > > > > > Nagy-Brestovany. I know that my Joseph Gabriel married an Elisabeth.
      > > > This
      > > > >
      > > > > > marriage is the year before their first child so I'm pretty sure they
      > > > are
      > > > > my
      > > > > > folks, but I can't decipher the part in the middle or her last name.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
      > > > > > - Dawn
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > >
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    • dmgnew
      Thanks to all for the help translating this record! It looks like I can continue to follow this path. - Dawn
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 12, 2011
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        Thanks to all for the help translating this record! It looks like I can continue to follow this path.
        - Dawn
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