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Re: [S-R] Translation Help - Trnava/Brestovany Marriage Record

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  • lkocik@comcast.net
    Peter  Thanks for your reply.  I got Joseph, son of Martin from the records of my ancestral villiage.      It would be the sons given name followed by
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 6, 2011
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      Peter

       Thanks for your reply.

       I got "Joseph, son of Martin from the records of my ancestral villiage.

           It would be the sons given name followed by the fathers and the fathers having an "i" attached on the end.  As a matter of fact, it wasn't consistantly used, only by certain scribes at different times. Other scribes would use the more common "filius" to designate "son of".

       If I'm right,  then how would Gabriel fit in?This is very interesting; I know how it works in my ancestral villiage, but maybe this scribe is doing something different.

       I have to agree with your take on Minorius, ...which I've never seen before this, but seems obvious .

       Hopefully someone else can offer  more on the subject.
      So to Dawn; what I offered was only a suggestion of something to look into.

       ...Something childish I remember from being an altar boy...

      "latin's a dead language, it's plain enouogh to see,

      it killed off all the Romans,

      and now it's killing me"

       respectfully;

      Larry

      ----- Original Message -----


      From: "htcstech" <htcstech@...>
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 2:38:52 AM
      Subject: Re: [S-R] Translation Help - Trnava/Brestovany Marriage Record

      Hello Larry,

      You could be right. There was no 'filius' - meaning son of, but I did decode
      Minorius - which is repeated legibly in an entry below. So I read 'Gabriel
      Minorius' as 'Gabriel filius' or Son of Gabriel. I can't see how you can get
      Josephus, the son of Martini and 'Gabriel' as a family name from the reading
      - there's no other similar entry.

      I do agree that each scribe has their own way, especially in these decades.
      But I did read other entries on the pages before I made that conclusion.

      Example: The next entry below says: "Martinus Kubrisky filius' and on the
      previous page it is common to see last names as the 2nd name in the entry.
      This is really different to what it should be: 'First Name, Father's name
      and Surname, son of'

      Sometimes the priest or scribe begins with the bride, so there is no
      consistency in these records.

      Good catch on Juvenus btw.

      Peter

      On 6 October 2011 16:42, <lkocik@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Peter
      >
      >  Great insight on translating, but I would beg to differ on just a few
      > things;
      >
      >  "Josephus Martini" would be Joseph, son of Martin. Also Joseph[us]
      > designated as Juvenis would mean he is a young single man, as opposed to
      > Vidus, a widower.
      >
      >  I have a different take on condam...I would think the root of this would
      > be "conditio" meaning status/condition and most commonly used to denote a
      > commoner as opposed to nobilis [nobility]
      >  This is only my opinion.
      >
      >   The only thing I can state for certain is; ...each scribe had their own
      > peculiar way of transcribing,  and it is probably best to try and study more
      > entries by this scribe to figure out his manner.
      >
      >  Larry
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      >
      > From: "htcstech" <htcstech@...>
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2011 7:40:50 PM
      > Subject: Re: [S-R] Translation Help - Trnava/Brestovany Marriage Record
      >
      > Hello Dawn,
      >
      > I worked backwards on this.
      >
      > Keep in mind that in Latin, order of names is Christian followed by Family
      > names.
      > There should be no repetitions of family names in these records.
      >
      > Well 'filia coram Josephus RUNZA' meaning 'daughter,  before Joseph RUNZA'
      > - RUNZA I think was the witness to the marriage as he is listed elsewhere.
      >
      > She is 'ex Kurkocz' or 'from Kurkocz', so I'm presuming that her family
      > came
      > from there as well.
      > The other words after Elisabetha spells 'Pounius Kojik' but the P could be
      > a
      > J as it seems to be written over.
      > So the last line reads: 'with Elizabeth, daughter of Jounius KOJIK from
      > Kurkocz, before Joseph RUNZA'
      >
      > 2nd line: I can't make out the full meaning as ecclesiastical latin has
      > greek roots with latin endings, and also the meanings may not be as strict
      > and have to be interpreted within the context.
      >
      > 'frustratum' means 'in vain, mistakenly, without reason'
      > 'traditio' means 'betrayal'
      > 'Dominus' means 'master'
      > 'Copulati' means marriage
      > 'Parocso' parish? Note the capital letters!
      > 'Maginti' - no idea - maybe a place?
      > 'uj' means 'new' in Hungarian
      >
      > So I think that the 2nd line reads " frustratum Dominus Copulati Parocus uj
      >
      > Maginti  traditam et ab exdeterna' as my best guess.
      > It probably means that he couldn't read/find records of the father of the
      > groom, possibly from another church parish. But this is only a guess.
      >
      > The first line "Copulatus i hony (honestus) invenis (Marriage of: The
      > honestly found (I have found as honest), Josephus MARTINI -"
      > 'Condam' from the verb root 'condo' meaning 'put together' in this case
      > 'relation'
      > Continues " Gabriel Minorinus (minor meaning 'smaller of')
      >
      > So I think this record is of the MARTINI family. There is no mention of the
      >
      > groom's mother and I think that the bride's father is Joannus or possibly
      > Julius KOJIK.
      >
      > Peter
      >
      > On 6 October 2011 08:43, dmgnew <dmg-tx@...> wrote:
      >
      > > **
      > >
      > >
      > > Hello Slovak-Roots Members,
      > > I could use some help trying to translate/decipher a marriage record. It
      > > can be found on the Family Search site at:
      > >
      > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-14369-38319-35?cc=1554443&wc=10601938
      > >
      > > It's the second entry for 1789 on page 307. I know that it starts off
      > with
      > > Nagy-Brestovany. I know that my Joseph Gabriel married an Elisabeth. This
      >
      > > marriage is the year before their first child so I'm pretty sure they are
      > my
      > > folks, but I can't decipher the part in the middle or her last name.
      > >
      > > Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
      > > - Dawn
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > PLEASE STAY ON-TOPIC (GENEALOGY).  OFF-TOPIC ITEMS WILL BE BLOCKED.
      >
      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
      >     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
      > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS  -or- send  blank email to
      > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >  
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      ------------------------------------

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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • htcstech
      Hello all, These things play on my mind. So at 3am, I wake up enough to realise that Elisabeth is entered correctly as First Name, Fathers Name, Family Name
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 6, 2011
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        Hello all,
        These things play on my mind.
        So at 3am, I wake up enough to realise that Elisabeth is entered 'correctly'
        as First Name, Fathers Name, Family Name with filia - as these records
        should be by default.
        Compare that to 'Josephus Martini condam Gabriel Minorius' - the difference
        rests on the meaning and usage of 'condam' and 'minorius'.
        My gut feeling is that if a scribe uses 'condam', then 'minorius' should be
        used as an operating pair.
        Condam, a VERB, translates as "first-person singular future active
        indicative of condō <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/condo#Latin>"
        http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/condam
        And Condo means "

        1. I put together <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/put_together>.
        2. I build <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/build>,
        establish<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/establish>;
        form <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/form>,
        fashion<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fashion>;
        make <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/make>,
        construct<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/construct>
        ."

        If the priest could not find any records (as what I think the 2nd line
        states), then he 'makes' or 'puts together' Josephus as the son of Martini
        GABRIEL; Josephus being the minor.

        So in the end, and ignoring other entries, I'm siding with Larry.

        Peter

        On 7 October 2011 05:29, <lkocik@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Peter
        >
        > Thanks for your reply.
        >
        > I got "Joseph, son of Martin from the records of my ancestral villiage.
        >
        > It would be the sons given name followed by the fathers and the
        > fathers having an "i" attached on the end. As a matter of fact, it wasn't
        > consistantly used, only by certain scribes at different times. Other scribes
        > would use the more common "filius" to designate "son of".
        >
        > If I'm right, then how would Gabriel fit in?This is very interesting; I
        > know how it works in my ancestral villiage, but maybe this scribe is doing
        > something different.
        >
        > I have to agree with your take on Minorius, ...which I've never seen
        > before this, but seems obvious .
        >
        > Hopefully someone else can offer more on the subject.
        > So to Dawn; what I offered was only a suggestion of something to look into.
        >
        >
        > ...Something childish I remember from being an altar boy...
        >
        > "latin's a dead language, it's plain enouogh to see,
        >
        > it killed off all the Romans,
        >
        > and now it's killing me"
        >
        > respectfully;
        >
        > Larry
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        >
        > From: "htcstech" <htcstech@...>
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 2:38:52 AM
        > Subject: Re: [S-R] Translation Help - Trnava/Brestovany Marriage Record
        >
        > Hello Larry,
        >
        > You could be right. There was no 'filius' - meaning son of, but I did
        > decode
        > Minorius - which is repeated legibly in an entry below. So I read 'Gabriel
        > Minorius' as 'Gabriel filius' or Son of Gabriel. I can't see how you can
        > get
        > Josephus, the son of Martini and 'Gabriel' as a family name from the
        > reading
        > - there's no other similar entry.
        >
        > I do agree that each scribe has their own way, especially in these decades.
        >
        > But I did read other entries on the pages before I made that conclusion.
        >
        > Example: The next entry below says: "Martinus Kubrisky filius' and on the
        > previous page it is common to see last names as the 2nd name in the entry.
        > This is really different to what it should be: 'First Name, Father's name
        > and Surname, son of'
        >
        > Sometimes the priest or scribe begins with the bride, so there is no
        > consistency in these records.
        >
        > Good catch on Juvenus btw.
        >
        > Peter
        >
        > On 6 October 2011 16:42, <lkocik@...> wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Peter
        > >
        > > Great insight on translating, but I would beg to differ on just a few
        > > things;
        > >
        > > "Josephus Martini" would be Joseph, son of Martin. Also Joseph[us]
        > > designated as Juvenis would mean he is a young single man, as opposed to
        > > Vidus, a widower.
        > >
        > > I have a different take on condam...I would think the root of this would
        >
        > > be "conditio" meaning status/condition and most commonly used to denote a
        >
        > > commoner as opposed to nobilis [nobility]
        > > This is only my opinion.
        > >
        > > The only thing I can state for certain is; ...each scribe had their own
        >
        > > peculiar way of transcribing, and it is probably best to try and study
        > more
        > > entries by this scribe to figure out his manner.
        > >
        > > Larry
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > >
        > > From: "htcstech" <htcstech@...>
        > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2011 7:40:50 PM
        > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Translation Help - Trnava/Brestovany Marriage Record
        > >
        > > Hello Dawn,
        > >
        > > I worked backwards on this.
        > >
        > > Keep in mind that in Latin, order of names is Christian followed by
        > Family
        > > names.
        > > There should be no repetitions of family names in these records.
        > >
        > > Well 'filia coram Josephus RUNZA' meaning 'daughter, before Joseph
        > RUNZA'
        > > - RUNZA I think was the witness to the marriage as he is listed
        > elsewhere.
        > >
        > > She is 'ex Kurkocz' or 'from Kurkocz', so I'm presuming that her family
        > > came
        > > from there as well.
        > > The other words after Elisabetha spells 'Pounius Kojik' but the P could
        > be
        > > a
        > > J as it seems to be written over.
        > > So the last line reads: 'with Elizabeth, daughter of Jounius KOJIK from
        > > Kurkocz, before Joseph RUNZA'
        > >
        > > 2nd line: I can't make out the full meaning as ecclesiastical latin has
        > > greek roots with latin endings, and also the meanings may not be as
        > strict
        > > and have to be interpreted within the context.
        > >
        > > 'frustratum' means 'in vain, mistakenly, without reason'
        > > 'traditio' means 'betrayal'
        > > 'Dominus' means 'master'
        > > 'Copulati' means marriage
        > > 'Parocso' parish? Note the capital letters!
        > > 'Maginti' - no idea - maybe a place?
        > > 'uj' means 'new' in Hungarian
        > >
        > > So I think that the 2nd line reads " frustratum Dominus Copulati Parocus
        > uj
        > >
        > > Maginti traditam et ab exdeterna' as my best guess.
        > > It probably means that he couldn't read/find records of the father of the
        >
        > > groom, possibly from another church parish. But this is only a guess.
        > >
        > > The first line "Copulatus i hony (honestus) invenis (Marriage of: The
        > > honestly found (I have found as honest), Josephus MARTINI -"
        > > 'Condam' from the verb root 'condo' meaning 'put together' in this case
        > > 'relation'
        > > Continues " Gabriel Minorinus (minor meaning 'smaller of')
        > >
        > > So I think this record is of the MARTINI family. There is no mention of
        > the
        > >
        > > groom's mother and I think that the bride's father is Joannus or possibly
        >
        > > Julius KOJIK.
        > >
        > > Peter
        > >
        > > On 6 October 2011 08:43, dmgnew <dmg-tx@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > > **
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Hello Slovak-Roots Members,
        > > > I could use some help trying to translate/decipher a marriage record.
        > It
        > > > can be found on the Family Search site at:
        > > >
        > >
        > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-14369-38319-35?cc=1554443&wc=10601938
        > > >
        > > > It's the second entry for 1789 on page 307. I know that it starts off
        > > with
        > > > Nagy-Brestovany. I know that my Joseph Gabriel married an Elisabeth.
        > This
        > >
        > > > marriage is the year before their first child so I'm pretty sure they
        > are
        > > my
        > > > folks, but I can't decipher the part in the middle or her last name.
        > > >
        > > > Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
        > > > - Dawn
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > PLEASE STAY ON-TOPIC (GENEALOGY). OFF-TOPIC ITEMS WILL BE BLOCKED.
        > >
        > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
        > >
        > > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
        > > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
        >
        > > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > PLEASE STAY ON-TOPIC (GENEALOGY). OFF-TOPIC ITEMS WILL BE BLOCKED.
        >
        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
        > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
        > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • CurtB
        Larry, The answer is simple. The phrase Josephus Martini Gabriel [filius], means Joseph the son of Martin Gabriel. Latin is an inflected language with word
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 6, 2011
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          Larry,
          The answer is simple. The phrase Josephus Martini Gabriel [filius],
          means Joseph the son of Martin Gabriel. Latin is an inflected language with word order only supplying secondary or sometimes no meaning.
          Josephus is in the nominative case, Martini is Genitive case of Martinus, and Gabriel, a local last name, not being in Latin, is not declined at all but just retains the same spelling regardless of case.

          Latinists still do this today!

          Curt B.

          Curt B.--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, lkocik@... wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > Peter
          >
          >  Thanks for your reply.
          >
          >  I got "Joseph, son of Martin from the records of my ancestral villiage.
          >
          >      It would be the sons given name followed by the fathers and the fathers having an "i" attached on the end.  As a matter of fact, it wasn't consistantly used, only by certain scribes at different times. Other scribes would use the more common "filius" to designate "son of".
          >
          >  If I'm right,  then how would Gabriel fit in?This is very interesting; I know how it works in my ancestral villiage, but maybe this scribe is doing something different.
          >
          >  I have to agree with your take on Minorius, ...which I've never seen before this, but seems obvious .
          >
          >  Hopefully someone else can offer  more on the subject.
          > So to Dawn; what I offered was only a suggestion of something to look into.
          >
          >  ...Something childish I remember from being an altar boy...
          >
          > "latin's a dead language, it's plain enouogh to see,
          >
          > it killed off all the Romans,
          >
          > and now it's killing me"
          >
          >  respectfully;
          >
          > Larry
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          >
          >
          > From: "htcstech" <htcstech@...>
          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 2:38:52 AM
          > Subject: Re: [S-R] Translation Help - Trnava/Brestovany Marriage Record
          >
          > Hello Larry,
          >
          > You could be right. There was no 'filius' - meaning son of, but I did decode
          > Minorius - which is repeated legibly in an entry below. So I read 'Gabriel
          > Minorius' as 'Gabriel filius' or Son of Gabriel. I can't see how you can get
          > Josephus, the son of Martini and 'Gabriel' as a family name from the reading
          > - there's no other similar entry.
          >
          > I do agree that each scribe has their own way, especially in these decades.
          > But I did read other entries on the pages before I made that conclusion.
          >
          > Example: The next entry below says: "Martinus Kubrisky filius' and on the
          > previous page it is common to see last names as the 2nd name in the entry.
          > This is really different to what it should be: 'First Name, Father's name
          > and Surname, son of'
          >
          > Sometimes the priest or scribe begins with the bride, so there is no
          > consistency in these records.
          >
          > Good catch on Juvenus btw.
          >
          > Peter
          >
          > On 6 October 2011 16:42, <lkocik@...> wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Peter
          > >
          > >  Great insight on translating, but I would beg to differ on just a few
          > > things;
          > >
          > >  "Josephus Martini" would be Joseph, son of Martin. Also Joseph[us]
          > > designated as Juvenis would mean he is a young single man, as opposed to
          > > Vidus, a widower.
          > >
          > >  I have a different take on condam...I would think the root of this would
          > > be "conditio" meaning status/condition and most commonly used to denote a
          > > commoner as opposed to nobilis [nobility]
          > >  This is only my opinion.
          > >
          > >   The only thing I can state for certain is; ...each scribe had their own
          > > peculiar way of transcribing,  and it is probably best to try and study more
          > > entries by this scribe to figure out his manner.
          > >
          > >  Larry
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > >
          > > From: "htcstech" <htcstech@...>
          > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2011 7:40:50 PM
          > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Translation Help - Trnava/Brestovany Marriage Record
          > >
          > > Hello Dawn,
          > >
          > > I worked backwards on this.
          > >
          > > Keep in mind that in Latin, order of names is Christian followed by Family
          > > names.
          > > There should be no repetitions of family names in these records.
          > >
          > > Well 'filia coram Josephus RUNZA' meaning 'daughter,  before Joseph RUNZA'
          > > - RUNZA I think was the witness to the marriage as he is listed elsewhere.
          > >
          > > She is 'ex Kurkocz' or 'from Kurkocz', so I'm presuming that her family
          > > came
          > > from there as well.
          > > The other words after Elisabetha spells 'Pounius Kojik' but the P could be
          > > a
          > > J as it seems to be written over.
          > > So the last line reads: 'with Elizabeth, daughter of Jounius KOJIK from
          > > Kurkocz, before Joseph RUNZA'
          > >
          > > 2nd line: I can't make out the full meaning as ecclesiastical latin has
          > > greek roots with latin endings, and also the meanings may not be as strict
          > > and have to be interpreted within the context.
          > >
          > > 'frustratum' means 'in vain, mistakenly, without reason'
          > > 'traditio' means 'betrayal'
          > > 'Dominus' means 'master'
          > > 'Copulati' means marriage
          > > 'Parocso' parish? Note the capital letters!
          > > 'Maginti' - no idea - maybe a place?
          > > 'uj' means 'new' in Hungarian
          > >
          > > So I think that the 2nd line reads " frustratum Dominus Copulati Parocus uj
          > >
          > > Maginti  traditam et ab exdeterna' as my best guess.
          > > It probably means that he couldn't read/find records of the father of the
          > > groom, possibly from another church parish. But this is only a guess.
          > >
          > > The first line "Copulatus i hony (honestus) invenis (Marriage of: The
          > > honestly found (I have found as honest), Josephus MARTINI -"
          > > 'Condam' from the verb root 'condo' meaning 'put together' in this case
          > > 'relation'
          > > Continues " Gabriel Minorinus (minor meaning 'smaller of')
          > >
          > > So I think this record is of the MARTINI family. There is no mention of the
          > >
          > > groom's mother and I think that the bride's father is Joannus or possibly
          > > Julius KOJIK.
          > >
          > > Peter
          > >
          > > On 6 October 2011 08:43, dmgnew <dmg-tx@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > > **
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Hello Slovak-Roots Members,
          > > > I could use some help trying to translate/decipher a marriage record. It
          > > > can be found on the Family Search site at:
          > > >
          > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-14369-38319-35?cc=1554443&wc=10601938
          > > >
          > > > It's the second entry for 1789 on page 307. I know that it starts off
          > > with
          > > > Nagy-Brestovany. I know that my Joseph Gabriel married an Elisabeth. This
          > >
          > > > marriage is the year before their first child so I'm pretty sure they are
          > > my
          > > > folks, but I can't decipher the part in the middle or her last name.
          > > >
          > > > Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
          > > > - Dawn
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > PLEASE STAY ON-TOPIC (GENEALOGY).  OFF-TOPIC ITEMS WILL BE BLOCKED.
          > >
          > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > >     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
          > >
          > > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
          > > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS  -or- send  blank email to
          > > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >  
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > PLEASE STAY ON-TOPIC (GENEALOGY).  OFF-TOPIC ITEMS WILL BE BLOCKED.
          >
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          >     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS  -or- send  blank email to SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • MagTon Media
          Continuation of Gabriel Minorinus (minor meaning smaller of ) -- What It means that the groom is a MINOR - under the age of 18 in Hungary . I do not know
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 7, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Continuation of " Gabriel Minorinus (minor meaning 'smaller of') --

            What It means that the groom is a MINOR - under the age of 18 in Hungary . I do not know what a minor constitutes in Slovakia but in France at this time period ( 1700's ) , a MINOR was under 21 years old . That is my take on it .

            Magda

            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello all,
            > These things play on my mind.
            > So at 3am, I wake up enough to realise that Elisabeth is entered 'correctly'
            > as First Name, Fathers Name, Family Name with filia - as these records
            > should be by default.
            > Compare that to 'Josephus Martini condam Gabriel Minorius' - the difference
            > rests on the meaning and usage of 'condam' and 'minorius'.
            > My gut feeling is that if a scribe uses 'condam', then 'minorius' should be
            > used as an operating pair.
            > Condam, a VERB, translates as "first-person singular future active
            > indicative of condō <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/condo#Latin>"
            > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/condam
            > And Condo means "
            >
            > 1. I put together <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/put_together>.
            > 2. I build <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/build>,
            > establish<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/establish>;
            > form <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/form>,
            > fashion<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fashion>;
            > make <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/make>,
            > construct<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/construct>
            > ."
            >
            > If the priest could not find any records (as what I think the 2nd line
            > states), then he 'makes' or 'puts together' Josephus as the son of Martini
            > GABRIEL; Josephus being the minor.
            >
            > So in the end, and ignoring other entries, I'm siding with Larry.
            >
            > Peter
            >
            > On 7 October 2011 05:29, <lkocik@...> wrote:
            >
            > > **
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Peter
            > >
            > > Thanks for your reply.
            > >
            > > I got "Joseph, son of Martin from the records of my ancestral villiage.
            > >
            > > It would be the sons given name followed by the fathers and the
            > > fathers having an "i" attached on the end. As a matter of fact, it wasn't
            > > consistantly used, only by certain scribes at different times. Other scribes
            > > would use the more common "filius" to designate "son of".
            > >
            > > If I'm right, then how would Gabriel fit in?This is very interesting; I
            > > know how it works in my ancestral villiage, but maybe this scribe is doing
            > > something different.
            > >
            > > I have to agree with your take on Minorius, ...which I've never seen
            > > before this, but seems obvious .
            > >
            > > Hopefully someone else can offer more on the subject.
            > > So to Dawn; what I offered was only a suggestion of something to look into.
            > >
            > >
            > > ...Something childish I remember from being an altar boy...
            > >
            > > "latin's a dead language, it's plain enouogh to see,
            > >
            > > it killed off all the Romans,
            > >
            > > and now it's killing me"
            > >
            > > respectfully;
            > >
            > > Larry
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > >
            > > From: "htcstech" <htcstech@...>
            > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 2:38:52 AM
            > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Translation Help - Trnava/Brestovany Marriage Record
            > >
            > > Hello Larry,
            > >
            > > You could be right. There was no 'filius' - meaning son of, but I did
            > > decode
            > > Minorius - which is repeated legibly in an entry below. So I read 'Gabriel
            > > Minorius' as 'Gabriel filius' or Son of Gabriel. I can't see how you can
            > > get
            > > Josephus, the son of Martini and 'Gabriel' as a family name from the
            > > reading
            > > - there's no other similar entry.
            > >
            > > I do agree that each scribe has their own way, especially in these decades.
            > >
            > > But I did read other entries on the pages before I made that conclusion.
            > >
            > > Example: The next entry below says: "Martinus Kubrisky filius' and on the
            > > previous page it is common to see last names as the 2nd name in the entry.
            > > This is really different to what it should be: 'First Name, Father's name
            > > and Surname, son of'
            > >
            > > Sometimes the priest or scribe begins with the bride, so there is no
            > > consistency in these records.
            > >
            > > Good catch on Juvenus btw.
            > >
            > > Peter
            > >
            > > On 6 October 2011 16:42, <lkocik@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > > **
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Peter
            > > >
            > > > Great insight on translating, but I would beg to differ on just a few
            > > > things;
            > > >
            > > > "Josephus Martini" would be Joseph, son of Martin. Also Joseph[us]
            > > > designated as Juvenis would mean he is a young single man, as opposed to
            > > > Vidus, a widower.
            > > >
            > > > I have a different take on condam...I would think the root of this would
            > >
            > > > be "conditio" meaning status/condition and most commonly used to denote a
            > >
            > > > commoner as opposed to nobilis [nobility]
            > > > This is only my opinion.
            > > >
            > > > The only thing I can state for certain is; ...each scribe had their own
            > >
            > > > peculiar way of transcribing, and it is probably best to try and study
            > > more
            > > > entries by this scribe to figure out his manner.
            > > >
            > > > Larry
            > > >
            > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > >
            > > > From: "htcstech" <htcstech@...>
            > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2011 7:40:50 PM
            > > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Translation Help - Trnava/Brestovany Marriage Record
            > > >
            > > > Hello Dawn,
            > > >
            > > > I worked backwards on this.
            > > >
            > > > Keep in mind that in Latin, order of names is Christian followed by
            > > Family
            > > > names.
            > > > There should be no repetitions of family names in these records.
            > > >
            > > > Well 'filia coram Josephus RUNZA' meaning 'daughter, before Joseph
            > > RUNZA'
            > > > - RUNZA I think was the witness to the marriage as he is listed
            > > elsewhere.
            > > >
            > > > She is 'ex Kurkocz' or 'from Kurkocz', so I'm presuming that her family
            > > > came
            > > > from there as well.
            > > > The other words after Elisabetha spells 'Pounius Kojik' but the P could
            > > be
            > > > a
            > > > J as it seems to be written over.
            > > > So the last line reads: 'with Elizabeth, daughter of Jounius KOJIK from
            > > > Kurkocz, before Joseph RUNZA'
            > > >
            > > > 2nd line: I can't make out the full meaning as ecclesiastical latin has
            > > > greek roots with latin endings, and also the meanings may not be as
            > > strict
            > > > and have to be interpreted within the context.
            > > >
            > > > 'frustratum' means 'in vain, mistakenly, without reason'
            > > > 'traditio' means 'betrayal'
            > > > 'Dominus' means 'master'
            > > > 'Copulati' means marriage
            > > > 'Parocso' parish? Note the capital letters!
            > > > 'Maginti' - no idea - maybe a place?
            > > > 'uj' means 'new' in Hungarian
            > > >
            > > > So I think that the 2nd line reads " frustratum Dominus Copulati Parocus
            > > uj
            > > >
            > > > Maginti traditam et ab exdeterna' as my best guess.
            > > > It probably means that he couldn't read/find records of the father of the
            > >
            > > > groom, possibly from another church parish. But this is only a guess.
            > > >
            > > > The first line "Copulatus i hony (honestus) invenis (Marriage of: The
            > > > honestly found (I have found as honest), Josephus MARTINI -"
            > > > 'Condam' from the verb root 'condo' meaning 'put together' in this case
            > > > 'relation'
            > > > Continues " Gabriel Minorinus (minor meaning 'smaller of')
            > > >
            > > > So I think this record is of the MARTINI family. There is no mention of
            > > the
            > > >
            > > > groom's mother and I think that the bride's father is Joannus or possibly
            > >
            > > > Julius KOJIK.
            > > >
            > > > Peter
            > > >
            > > > On 6 October 2011 08:43, dmgnew <dmg-tx@...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > > **
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Hello Slovak-Roots Members,
            > > > > I could use some help trying to translate/decipher a marriage record.
            > > It
            > > > > can be found on the Family Search site at:
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-14369-38319-35?cc=1554443&wc=10601938
            > > > >
            > > > > It's the second entry for 1789 on page 307. I know that it starts off
            > > > with
            > > > > Nagy-Brestovany. I know that my Joseph Gabriel married an Elisabeth.
            > > This
            > > >
            > > > > marriage is the year before their first child so I'm pretty sure they
            > > are
            > > > my
            > > > > folks, but I can't decipher the part in the middle or her last name.
            > > > >
            > > > > Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
            > > > > - Dawn
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > > ------------------------------------
            > > >
            > > > PLEASE STAY ON-TOPIC (GENEALOGY). OFF-TOPIC ITEMS WILL BE BLOCKED.
            > > >
            > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
            > > >
            > > > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
            > > > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
            > >
            > > > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > PLEASE STAY ON-TOPIC (GENEALOGY). OFF-TOPIC ITEMS WILL BE BLOCKED.
            > >
            > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
            > > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
            > > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Michael Mojher
            min.or V 1 1 PRES PASSIVE IND 1 S mino, minare, minavi, minatus V TRANS [DXXDS] Late lesser drive (animals); impel, push, force;
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 8, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              min.or V 1 1 PRES PASSIVE IND 1 S
              mino, minare, minavi, minatus V TRANS [DXXDS] Late lesser
              drive (animals); impel, push, force; threaten?;

              minor, minari, minatus sum V DEP [XXXBO]
              threaten, speak/act menacingly; make threatening movement; give indication of;

              minor N 3 1 NOM S M
              minor N 3 1 VOC S M
              minor, minoris N M [XXXDX] lesser
              those inferior in rank/grade/age, subordinate; descendants (pl.);

              min.or ADJ 1 1 NOM S C COMP
              min.or ADJ 1 1 VOC S C COMP
              parvus, parva -um, minor -or -us, minimus -a -um ADJ [XXXAX]
              small, little, cheap; unimportant; (SUPER) smallest, least;

              Minoritatas is less than legal age.

              From: MagTon Media
              Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 4:57 PM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [S-R] Re: Translation Help - Trnava/Brestovany Marriage Record


              Continuation of " Gabriel Minorinus (minor meaning 'smaller of') --

              What It means that the groom is a MINOR - under the age of 18 in Hungary . I do not know what a minor constitutes in Slovakia but in France at this time period ( 1700's ) , a MINOR was under 21 years old . That is my take on it .

              Magda

              --- In mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello all,
              > These things play on my mind.
              > So at 3am, I wake up enough to realise that Elisabeth is entered 'correctly'
              > as First Name, Fathers Name, Family Name with filia - as these records
              > should be by default.
              > Compare that to 'Josephus Martini condam Gabriel Minorius' - the difference
              > rests on the meaning and usage of 'condam' and 'minorius'.
              > My gut feeling is that if a scribe uses 'condam', then 'minorius' should be
              > used as an operating pair.
              > Condam, a VERB, translates as "first-person singular future active
              > indicative of condō <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/condo#Latin>"
              > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/condam
              > And Condo means "
              >
              > 1. I put together <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/put_together>.
              > 2. I build <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/build>,
              > establish<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/establish>;
              > form <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/form>,
              > fashion<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fashion>;
              > make <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/make>,
              > construct<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/construct>
              > ."
              >
              > If the priest could not find any records (as what I think the 2nd line
              > states), then he 'makes' or 'puts together' Josephus as the son of Martini
              > GABRIEL; Josephus being the minor.
              >
              > So in the end, and ignoring other entries, I'm siding with Larry.
              >
              > Peter
              >
              > On 7 October 2011 05:29, <lkocik@...> wrote:
              >
              > > **
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Peter
              > >
              > > Thanks for your reply.
              > >
              > > I got "Joseph, son of Martin from the records of my ancestral villiage.
              > >
              > > It would be the sons given name followed by the fathers and the
              > > fathers having an "i" attached on the end. As a matter of fact, it wasn't
              > > consistantly used, only by certain scribes at different times. Other scribes
              > > would use the more common "filius" to designate "son of".
              > >
              > > If I'm right, then how would Gabriel fit in?This is very interesting; I
              > > know how it works in my ancestral villiage, but maybe this scribe is doing
              > > something different.
              > >
              > > I have to agree with your take on Minorius, ...which I've never seen
              > > before this, but seems obvious .
              > >
              > > Hopefully someone else can offer more on the subject.
              > > So to Dawn; what I offered was only a suggestion of something to look into.
              > >
              > >
              > > ...Something childish I remember from being an altar boy...
              > >
              > > "latin's a dead language, it's plain enouogh to see,
              > >
              > > it killed off all the Romans,
              > >
              > > and now it's killing me"
              > >
              > > respectfully;
              > >
              > > Larry
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > >
              > > From: "htcstech" <htcstech@...>
              > > To: mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 2:38:52 AM
              > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Translation Help - Trnava/Brestovany Marriage Record
              > >
              > > Hello Larry,
              > >
              > > You could be right. There was no 'filius' - meaning son of, but I did
              > > decode
              > > Minorius - which is repeated legibly in an entry below. So I read 'Gabriel
              > > Minorius' as 'Gabriel filius' or Son of Gabriel. I can't see how you can
              > > get
              > > Josephus, the son of Martini and 'Gabriel' as a family name from the
              > > reading
              > > - there's no other similar entry.
              > >
              > > I do agree that each scribe has their own way, especially in these decades.
              > >
              > > But I did read other entries on the pages before I made that conclusion.
              > >
              > > Example: The next entry below says: "Martinus Kubrisky filius' and on the
              > > previous page it is common to see last names as the 2nd name in the entry.
              > > This is really different to what it should be: 'First Name, Father's name
              > > and Surname, son of'
              > >
              > > Sometimes the priest or scribe begins with the bride, so there is no
              > > consistency in these records.
              > >
              > > Good catch on Juvenus btw.
              > >
              > > Peter
              > >
              > > On 6 October 2011 16:42, <lkocik@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > > **
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Peter
              > > >
              > > > Great insight on translating, but I would beg to differ on just a few
              > > > things;
              > > >
              > > > "Josephus Martini" would be Joseph, son of Martin. Also Joseph[us]
              > > > designated as Juvenis would mean he is a young single man, as opposed to
              > > > Vidus, a widower.
              > > >
              > > > I have a different take on condam...I would think the root of this would
              > >
              > > > be "conditio" meaning status/condition and most commonly used to denote a
              > >
              > > > commoner as opposed to nobilis [nobility]
              > > > This is only my opinion.
              > > >
              > > > The only thing I can state for certain is; ...each scribe had their own
              > >
              > > > peculiar way of transcribing, and it is probably best to try and study
              > > more
              > > > entries by this scribe to figure out his manner.
              > > >
              > > > Larry
              > > >
              > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > >
              > > > From: "htcstech" <htcstech@...>
              > > > To: mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com
              > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2011 7:40:50 PM
              > > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Translation Help - Trnava/Brestovany Marriage Record
              > > >
              > > > Hello Dawn,
              > > >
              > > > I worked backwards on this.
              > > >
              > > > Keep in mind that in Latin, order of names is Christian followed by
              > > Family
              > > > names.
              > > > There should be no repetitions of family names in these records.
              > > >
              > > > Well 'filia coram Josephus RUNZA' meaning 'daughter, before Joseph
              > > RUNZA'
              > > > - RUNZA I think was the witness to the marriage as he is listed
              > > elsewhere.
              > > >
              > > > She is 'ex Kurkocz' or 'from Kurkocz', so I'm presuming that her family
              > > > came
              > > > from there as well.
              > > > The other words after Elisabetha spells 'Pounius Kojik' but the P could
              > > be
              > > > a
              > > > J as it seems to be written over.
              > > > So the last line reads: 'with Elizabeth, daughter of Jounius KOJIK from
              > > > Kurkocz, before Joseph RUNZA'
              > > >
              > > > 2nd line: I can't make out the full meaning as ecclesiastical latin has
              > > > greek roots with latin endings, and also the meanings may not be as
              > > strict
              > > > and have to be interpreted within the context.
              > > >
              > > > 'frustratum' means 'in vain, mistakenly, without reason'
              > > > 'traditio' means 'betrayal'
              > > > 'Dominus' means 'master'
              > > > 'Copulati' means marriage
              > > > 'Parocso' parish? Note the capital letters!
              > > > 'Maginti' - no idea - maybe a place?
              > > > 'uj' means 'new' in Hungarian
              > > >
              > > > So I think that the 2nd line reads " frustratum Dominus Copulati Parocus
              > > uj
              > > >
              > > > Maginti traditam et ab exdeterna' as my best guess.
              > > > It probably means that he couldn't read/find records of the father of the
              > >
              > > > groom, possibly from another church parish. But this is only a guess.
              > > >
              > > > The first line "Copulatus i hony (honestus) invenis (Marriage of: The
              > > > honestly found (I have found as honest), Josephus MARTINI -"
              > > > 'Condam' from the verb root 'condo' meaning 'put together' in this case
              > > > 'relation'
              > > > Continues " Gabriel Minorinus (minor meaning 'smaller of')
              > > >
              > > > So I think this record is of the MARTINI family. There is no mention of
              > > the
              > > >
              > > > groom's mother and I think that the bride's father is Joannus or possibly
              > >
              > > > Julius KOJIK.
              > > >
              > > > Peter
              > > >
              > > > On 6 October 2011 08:43, dmgnew <dmg-tx@...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > > **
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Hello Slovak-Roots Members,
              > > > > I could use some help trying to translate/decipher a marriage record.
              > > It
              > > > > can be found on the Family Search site at:
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-14369-38319-35?cc=1554443&wc=10601938
              > > > >
              > > > > It's the second entry for 1789 on page 307. I know that it starts off
              > > > with
              > > > > Nagy-Brestovany. I know that my Joseph Gabriel married an Elisabeth.
              > > This
              > > >
              > > > > marriage is the year before their first child so I'm pretty sure they
              > > are
              > > > my
              > > > > folks, but I can't decipher the part in the middle or her last name.
              > > > >
              > > > > Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
              > > > > - Dawn
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > > > ------------------------------------
              > > >
              > > > PLEASE STAY ON-TOPIC (GENEALOGY). OFF-TOPIC ITEMS WILL BE BLOCKED.
              > > >
              > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
              > > >
              > > > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
              > > > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
              > >
              > > > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
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            • CurtB
              Remember that Latin adjectives have to agree in gender, number and case so you can tell what is being modified. Here is a translation of the complete passage
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 8, 2011
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                Remember that Latin adjectives have to agree in gender, number and case so you can tell what is being modified.
                Here is a translation of the complete passage in question. The entry is not punctuated, so it is just a long run-on sentence so common in Latin. Joseph is apparently a minor according to contemporary canon or civil law and requires the permission of his father to marry.

                It says:

                I joined in marriage the honest youth [previously unmarried] Joseph, son of Martin Gabriel, being a minor youth unable [to marry], but the Reverend pastor of his parish of Magensis sent the permission [of his father], with the honest virgin [never married] Elizagbeth daughter of ----- ------ from Kurkosc, with Joseph Runza as witness.

                Curt B.

                --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@...> wrote:
                >
                > min.or V 1 1 PRES PASSIVE IND 1 S
                > mino, minare, minavi, minatus V TRANS [DXXDS] Late lesser
                > drive (animals); impel, push, force; threaten?;
                >
                > minor, minari, minatus sum V DEP [XXXBO]
                > threaten, speak/act menacingly; make threatening movement; give indication of;
                >
                > minor N 3 1 NOM S M
                > minor N 3 1 VOC S M
                > minor, minoris N M [XXXDX] lesser
                > those inferior in rank/grade/age, subordinate; descendants (pl.);
                >
                > min.or ADJ 1 1 NOM S C COMP
                > min.or ADJ 1 1 VOC S C COMP
                > parvus, parva -um, minor -or -us, minimus -a -um ADJ [XXXAX]
                > small, little, cheap; unimportant; (SUPER) smallest, least;
                >
                > Minoritatas is less than legal age.
                >
                > From: MagTon Media
                > Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 4:57 PM
                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [S-R] Re: Translation Help - Trnava/Brestovany Marriage Record
                >
                >
                > Continuation of " Gabriel Minorinus (minor meaning 'smaller of') --
                >
                > What It means that the groom is a MINOR - under the age of 18 in Hungary . I do not know what a minor constitutes in Slovakia but in France at this time period ( 1700's ) , a MINOR was under 21 years old . That is my take on it .
                >
                > Magda
                >
                > --- In mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello all,
                > > These things play on my mind.
                > > So at 3am, I wake up enough to realise that Elisabeth is entered 'correctly'
                > > as First Name, Fathers Name, Family Name with filia - as these records
                > > should be by default.
                > > Compare that to 'Josephus Martini condam Gabriel Minorius' - the difference
                > > rests on the meaning and usage of 'condam' and 'minorius'.
                > > My gut feeling is that if a scribe uses 'condam', then 'minorius' should be
                > > used as an operating pair.
                > > Condam, a VERB, translates as "first-person singular future active
                > > indicative of condō <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/condo#Latin>"
                > > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/condam
                > > And Condo means "
                > >
                > > 1. I put together <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/put_together>.
                > > 2. I build <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/build>,
                > > establish<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/establish>;
                > > form <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/form>,
                > > fashion<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fashion>;
                > > make <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/make>,
                > > construct<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/construct>
                > > ."
                > >
                > > If the priest could not find any records (as what I think the 2nd line
                > > states), then he 'makes' or 'puts together' Josephus as the son of Martini
                > > GABRIEL; Josephus being the minor.
                > >
                > > So in the end, and ignoring other entries, I'm siding with Larry.
                > >
                > > Peter
                > >
                > > On 7 October 2011 05:29, <lkocik@> wrote:
                > >
                > > > **
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Peter
                > > >
                > > > Thanks for your reply.
                > > >
                > > > I got "Joseph, son of Martin from the records of my ancestral villiage.
                > > >
                > > > It would be the sons given name followed by the fathers and the
                > > > fathers having an "i" attached on the end. As a matter of fact, it wasn't
                > > > consistantly used, only by certain scribes at different times. Other scribes
                > > > would use the more common "filius" to designate "son of".
                > > >
                > > > If I'm right, then how would Gabriel fit in?This is very interesting; I
                > > > know how it works in my ancestral villiage, but maybe this scribe is doing
                > > > something different.
                > > >
                > > > I have to agree with your take on Minorius, ...which I've never seen
                > > > before this, but seems obvious .
                > > >
                > > > Hopefully someone else can offer more on the subject.
                > > > So to Dawn; what I offered was only a suggestion of something to look into.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ...Something childish I remember from being an altar boy...
                > > >
                > > > "latin's a dead language, it's plain enouogh to see,
                > > >
                > > > it killed off all the Romans,
                > > >
                > > > and now it's killing me"
                > > >
                > > > respectfully;
                > > >
                > > > Larry
                > > >
                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > >
                > > > From: "htcstech" <htcstech@>
                > > > To: mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com
                > > > Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 2:38:52 AM
                > > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Translation Help - Trnava/Brestovany Marriage Record
                > > >
                > > > Hello Larry,
                > > >
                > > > You could be right. There was no 'filius' - meaning son of, but I did
                > > > decode
                > > > Minorius - which is repeated legibly in an entry below. So I read 'Gabriel
                > > > Minorius' as 'Gabriel filius' or Son of Gabriel. I can't see how you can
                > > > get
                > > > Josephus, the son of Martini and 'Gabriel' as a family name from the
                > > > reading
                > > > - there's no other similar entry.
                > > >
                > > > I do agree that each scribe has their own way, especially in these decades.
                > > >
                > > > But I did read other entries on the pages before I made that conclusion.
                > > >
                > > > Example: The next entry below says: "Martinus Kubrisky filius' and on the
                > > > previous page it is common to see last names as the 2nd name in the entry.
                > > > This is really different to what it should be: 'First Name, Father's name
                > > > and Surname, son of'
                > > >
                > > > Sometimes the priest or scribe begins with the bride, so there is no
                > > > consistency in these records.
                > > >
                > > > Good catch on Juvenus btw.
                > > >
                > > > Peter
                > > >
                > > > On 6 October 2011 16:42, <lkocik@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > > **
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Peter
                > > > >
                > > > > Great insight on translating, but I would beg to differ on just a few
                > > > > things;
                > > > >
                > > > > "Josephus Martini" would be Joseph, son of Martin. Also Joseph[us]
                > > > > designated as Juvenis would mean he is a young single man, as opposed to
                > > > > Vidus, a widower.
                > > > >
                > > > > I have a different take on condam...I would think the root of this would
                > > >
                > > > > be "conditio" meaning status/condition and most commonly used to denote a
                > > >
                > > > > commoner as opposed to nobilis [nobility]
                > > > > This is only my opinion.
                > > > >
                > > > > The only thing I can state for certain is; ...each scribe had their own
                > > >
                > > > > peculiar way of transcribing, and it is probably best to try and study
                > > > more
                > > > > entries by this scribe to figure out his manner.
                > > > >
                > > > > Larry
                > > > >
                > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > >
                > > > > From: "htcstech" <htcstech@>
                > > > > To: mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com
                > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2011 7:40:50 PM
                > > > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Translation Help - Trnava/Brestovany Marriage Record
                > > > >
                > > > > Hello Dawn,
                > > > >
                > > > > I worked backwards on this.
                > > > >
                > > > > Keep in mind that in Latin, order of names is Christian followed by
                > > > Family
                > > > > names.
                > > > > There should be no repetitions of family names in these records.
                > > > >
                > > > > Well 'filia coram Josephus RUNZA' meaning 'daughter, before Joseph
                > > > RUNZA'
                > > > > - RUNZA I think was the witness to the marriage as he is listed
                > > > elsewhere.
                > > > >
                > > > > She is 'ex Kurkocz' or 'from Kurkocz', so I'm presuming that her family
                > > > > came
                > > > > from there as well.
                > > > > The other words after Elisabetha spells 'Pounius Kojik' but the P could
                > > > be
                > > > > a
                > > > > J as it seems to be written over.
                > > > > So the last line reads: 'with Elizabeth, daughter of Jounius KOJIK from
                > > > > Kurkocz, before Joseph RUNZA'
                > > > >
                > > > > 2nd line: I can't make out the full meaning as ecclesiastical latin has
                > > > > greek roots with latin endings, and also the meanings may not be as
                > > > strict
                > > > > and have to be interpreted within the context.
                > > > >
                > > > > 'frustratum' means 'in vain, mistakenly, without reason'
                > > > > 'traditio' means 'betrayal'
                > > > > 'Dominus' means 'master'
                > > > > 'Copulati' means marriage
                > > > > 'Parocso' parish? Note the capital letters!
                > > > > 'Maginti' - no idea - maybe a place?
                > > > > 'uj' means 'new' in Hungarian
                > > > >
                > > > > So I think that the 2nd line reads " frustratum Dominus Copulati Parocus
                > > > uj
                > > > >
                > > > > Maginti traditam et ab exdeterna' as my best guess.
                > > > > It probably means that he couldn't read/find records of the father of the
                > > >
                > > > > groom, possibly from another church parish. But this is only a guess.
                > > > >
                > > > > The first line "Copulatus i hony (honestus) invenis (Marriage of: The
                > > > > honestly found (I have found as honest), Josephus MARTINI -"
                > > > > 'Condam' from the verb root 'condo' meaning 'put together' in this case
                > > > > 'relation'
                > > > > Continues " Gabriel Minorinus (minor meaning 'smaller of')
                > > > >
                > > > > So I think this record is of the MARTINI family. There is no mention of
                > > > the
                > > > >
                > > > > groom's mother and I think that the bride's father is Joannus or possibly
                > > >
                > > > > Julius KOJIK.
                > > > >
                > > > > Peter
                > > > >
                > > > > On 6 October 2011 08:43, dmgnew <dmg-tx@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > > **
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Hello Slovak-Roots Members,
                > > > > > I could use some help trying to translate/decipher a marriage record.
                > > > It
                > > > > > can be found on the Family Search site at:
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-14369-38319-35?cc=1554443&wc=10601938
                > > > > >
                > > > > > It's the second entry for 1789 on page 307. I know that it starts off
                > > > > with
                > > > > > Nagy-Brestovany. I know that my Joseph Gabriel married an Elisabeth.
                > > > This
                > > > >
                > > > > > marriage is the year before their first child so I'm pretty sure they
                > > > are
                > > > > my
                > > > > > folks, but I can't decipher the part in the middle or her last name.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
                > > > > > - Dawn
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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              • dmgnew
                Thanks to all for the help translating this record! It looks like I can continue to follow this path. - Dawn
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 12, 2011
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                  Thanks to all for the help translating this record! It looks like I can continue to follow this path.
                  - Dawn
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