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Re: [S-R] Re: Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check

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  • htcstech
    Where found, every entry I ve seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded. Obviously not in this case, and I can t think of a reason, certainly in 1848, where a
    Message 1 of 24 , Sep 20, 2011
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      Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
      Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
      1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
      For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
      birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!

      So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was he
      called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?


      Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
      Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
      she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.

      What a delicious problem!

      Well, if it was my family tree, I would:

      1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from then
      on.
      2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same book
      - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
      3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years between
      1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was married
      AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the line
      *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
      It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could have
      been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
      important.

      Please keep me informed.

      I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
      other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the same
      name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from 2
      fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.

      I reckon you've got it easy!

      Peter

      On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
      > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
      > >
      > > Peter
      > >
      >
      > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
      >
      > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
      >
      >
      > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&wc=10600137
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Michael Mojher
      Peter, I don t know if it relevant to this case. In the past there was a discussion where a family line died of because there were no sons. Since the family
      Message 2 of 24 , Sep 20, 2011
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        Peter,
        I don't know if it relevant to this case. In the past there was a
        discussion where a family line died of because there were no sons. Since the
        family owned land they had a son-in-law take on the family name to continue
        it. It seems the Slovaks were creative in the use of surnames

        -----Original Message-----
        From: htcstech
        Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 9:25 AM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check

        Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
        Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
        1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
        For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
        birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!

        So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was he
        called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?


        Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
        Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
        she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.

        What a delicious problem!

        Well, if it was my family tree, I would:

        1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from then
        on.
        2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same book
        - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
        3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years between
        1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was married
        AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the line
        *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
        It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could have
        been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
        important.

        Please keep me informed.

        I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
        other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the same
        name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from 2
        fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.

        I reckon you've got it easy!

        Peter

        On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
        > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
        > >
        > > Peter
        > >
        >
        > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
        >
        > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
        >
        >
        > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&wc=10600137
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      • htcstech
        An excellent point! Probably the case or something very similar. I also found one of my ancestors, a widow, looking after at least 3 children whose parents
        Message 3 of 24 , Sep 20, 2011
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          An excellent point! Probably the case or something very similar. I also
          found one of my ancestors, a widow, looking after at least 3 children whose
          parents died in the village. The children were very young and died within a
          few years, never getting old enough to marry. They were entered in the death
          record by their father's last name. However in this case, the priest made it
          obvious that they were fostered.

          Just for the record, 1848 was the year the revolution started. Pigza could
          have died as a result?

          Peter

          BTW: The longer I do this, the prouder I become of my Slovak heritage and
          the Slovak people in general. I can see now why my father was so calm and
          hardly ever angry.
          Our Rus cousins, as well as the Magyars and Germans, had a terrible time in
          Vojvodina, Serbia. The Slovak-Magyar mix in the north was much more peaceful
          and civilized than what happened in the south with the Serbian communists.

          On 21 September 2011 02:55, Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:

          > Peter,
          > I don't know if it relevant to this case. In the past there was a
          > discussion where a family line died of because there were no sons. Since
          > the
          > family owned land they had a son-in-law take on the family name to continue
          > it. It seems the Slovaks were creative in the use of surnames
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: htcstech
          > Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 9:25 AM
          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check
          >
          > Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
          > Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
          > 1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
          > For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
          > birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!
          >
          > So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was
          > he
          > called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?
          >
          >
          > Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
          > Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
          > she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.
          >
          > What a delicious problem!
          >
          > Well, if it was my family tree, I would:
          >
          > 1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from
          > then
          > on.
          > 2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same book
          > - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
          > 3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years between
          > 1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was married
          > AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the
          > line
          > *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
          > It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could have
          > been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
          > important.
          >
          > Please keep me informed.
          >
          > I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
          > other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the same
          > name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from 2
          > fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.
          >
          > I reckon you've got it easy!
          >
          > Peter
          >
          > On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
          > > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
          > > >
          > > > Peter
          > > >
          > >
          > > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
          > >
          > > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&wc=10600137
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > PLEASE STAY ON-TOPIC (GENEALOGY). OFF-TOPIC ITEMS WILL BE BLOCKED.
          >
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
          > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
          > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > PLEASE STAY ON-TOPIC (GENEALOGY). OFF-TOPIC ITEMS WILL BE BLOCKED.
          >
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
          > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
          > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • lisan533
          Just to double check, in this particular record is the father s name above or below the mother s? He was known as Antonius Pigza in subsequent records, but
          Message 4 of 24 , Sep 21, 2011
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            Just to double check, in this particular record is the father's name above or below the mother's? He was known as Antonius Pigza in subsequent records, but his children went by Petro(Pigza), that's why I asked about the position of the father's name, I assumed that Antonius' father was Gregorius Petrov, in which case the change would kind of make sense.
            Thanks!
            Lisa

            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
            >
            > Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
            > Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
            > 1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
            > For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
            > birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!
            >
            > So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was he
            > called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?
            >
            >
            > Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
            > Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
            > she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.
            >
            > What a delicious problem!
            >
            > Well, if it was my family tree, I would:
            >
            > 1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from then
            > on.
            > 2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same book
            > - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
            > 3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years between
            > 1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was married
            > AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the line
            > *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
            > It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could have
            > been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
            > important.
            >
            > Please keep me informed.
            >
            > I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
            > other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the same
            > name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from 2
            > fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.
            >
            > I reckon you've got it easy!
            >
            > Peter
            >
            > On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:
            >
            > > **
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
            > > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
            > > >
            > > > Peter
            > > >
            > >
            > > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
            > >
            > > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
            > >
            > >
            > > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&wc=10600137
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • lacoros@gmail.com
            When was a child illegitimate? My idea was clear - when a child was born less then 7-8 months after marriage or more then 9-10 months after death of the
            Message 5 of 24 , Sep 21, 2011
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              When was a child illegitimate? My idea was clear - when a child was born less then 7-8 months after marriage or more then 9-10 months after death of the father.

              My great surprise was finding a legitimate child 2 months before the wedding. After this a legitimate child born two months after wedding was not so surprising. Both children born about 1840. Also after seeing entries where after 10-20 years was a child re-legitimized and a father was added, i assume that in some time illegitimate child would mean "father unknown" or "father didn't give his consent to be written as the father".

              Whats you opinion about this?


              Ladislav
              -----Original Message-----
              From: htcstech <htcstech@...>
              Sender: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:25:47
              To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
              Reply-To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check

              Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
              Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
              1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
              For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
              birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!

              So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was he
              called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?


              Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
              Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
              she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.

              What a delicious problem!

              Well, if it was my family tree, I would:

              1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from then
              on.
              2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same book
              - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
              3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years between
              1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was married
              AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the line
              *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
              It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could have
              been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
              important.

              Please keep me informed.

              I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
              other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the same
              name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from 2
              fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.

              I reckon you've got it easy!

              Peter

              On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
              > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
              > >
              > > Peter
              > >
              >
              > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
              >
              > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
              >
              >
              > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&wc=10600137
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              PLEASE STAY ON-TOPIC (GENEALOGY). OFF-TOPIC ITEMS WILL BE BLOCKED.

              To visit your group on the web, go to:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/

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            • Frank R Plichta
              Ladislav, I would look at the marital status of the parents at the time the child was born rather than when the child was conceived. If the couple was
              Message 6 of 24 , Sep 21, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Ladislav,



                I would look at the marital status of the parents at the time the child was
                born rather than when the child was conceived. If the couple was 1)married
                and then 2) the child was born, it doesn't matter when the father died, even
                if the father died before the child was born.



                Either the child was legitimate or not. The only criteria that I see is
                that the couple was married before the birth.



                Enjoy,

                Frank



                _____

                From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of lacoros@...
                Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 10:47 AM
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [S-R] Re: illegitimate children






                When was a child illegitimate? My idea was clear - when a child was born
                less then 7-8 months after marriage or more then 9-10 months after death of
                the father.

                My great surprise was finding a legitimate child 2 months before the
                wedding. After this a legitimate child born two months after wedding was not
                so surprising. Both children born about 1840. Also after seeing entries
                where after 10-20 years was a child re-legitimized and a father was added, i
                assume that in some time illegitimate child would mean "father unknown" or
                "father didn't give his consent to be written as the father".

                Whats you opinion about this?


                Ladislav
                -----Original Message-----
                From: htcstech <htcstech@... <mailto:htcstech%40gmail.com> >
                Sender: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>

                Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:25:47
                To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> >
                Reply-To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check

                Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
                Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
                1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
                For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
                birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!

                So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was he
                called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?


                Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
                Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
                she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.

                What a delicious problem!

                Well, if it was my family tree, I would:

                1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from then
                on.
                2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same book
                - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
                3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years between
                1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was married
                AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the line
                *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
                It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could have
                been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
                important.

                Please keep me informed.

                I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
                other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the same
                name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from 2
                fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.

                I reckon you've got it easy!

                Peter

                On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...
                <mailto:horsegirrl%40hotmail.com> > wrote:

                > **
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                > >
                > > Peter
                > >
                >
                > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
                >
                > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                >
                >
                > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443
                <https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&
                wc=10600137> &wc=10600137
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ------------------------------------

                PLEASE STAY ON-TOPIC (GENEALOGY). OFF-TOPIC ITEMS WILL BE BLOCKED.

                To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/

                To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
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                <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo> ! Groups Links








                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Elaine
                Frank, This is not about illegitimate children, but I have always enjoyed your tag line looking for Plichtas all over the world (I paraphrase). I was in
                Message 7 of 24 , Sep 21, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Frank,

                  This is not about illegitimate children, but I have always enjoyed your tag line "looking for Plichtas all over the world" (I paraphrase). I was in Kostolany nad Hornádom recently and saw an old record that contained a Plichta. Have you found some relatives there?

                  Elaine

                  Sent from my iPhone

                  On Sep 21, 2011, at 5:06 PM, "Frank R Plichta" <frank.r.plichta@...> wrote:

                  > Ladislav,
                  >
                  > I would look at the marital status of the parents at the time the child was
                  > born rather than when the child was conceived. If the couple was 1)married
                  > and then 2) the child was born, it doesn't matter when the father died, even
                  > if the father died before the child was born.
                  >
                  > Either the child was legitimate or not. The only criteria that I see is
                  > that the couple was married before the birth.
                  >
                  > Enjoy,
                  >
                  > Frank
                  >
                  > _____
                  >
                  > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                  > Behalf Of lacoros@...
                  > Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 10:47 AM
                  > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [S-R] Re: illegitimate children
                  >
                  > When was a child illegitimate? My idea was clear - when a child was born
                  > less then 7-8 months after marriage or more then 9-10 months after death of
                  > the father.
                  >
                  > My great surprise was finding a legitimate child 2 months before the
                  > wedding. After this a legitimate child born two months after wedding was not
                  > so surprising. Both children born about 1840. Also after seeing entries
                  > where after 10-20 years was a child re-legitimized and a father was added, i
                  > assume that in some time illegitimate child would mean "father unknown" or
                  > "father didn't give his consent to be written as the father".
                  >
                  > Whats you opinion about this?
                  >
                  > Ladislav
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: htcstech <htcstech@... <mailto:htcstech%40gmail.com> >
                  > Sender: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                  >
                  > Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:25:47
                  > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> >
                  > Reply-To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check
                  >
                  > Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
                  > Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
                  > 1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
                  > For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
                  > birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!
                  >
                  > So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was he
                  > called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?
                  >
                  > Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
                  > Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
                  > she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.
                  >
                  > What a delicious problem!
                  >
                  > Well, if it was my family tree, I would:
                  >
                  > 1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from then
                  > on.
                  > 2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same book
                  > - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
                  > 3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years between
                  > 1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was married
                  > AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the line
                  > *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
                  > It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could have
                  > been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
                  > important.
                  >
                  > Please keep me informed.
                  >
                  > I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
                  > other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the same
                  > name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from 2
                  > fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.
                  >
                  > I reckon you've got it easy!
                  >
                  > Peter
                  >
                  > On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...
                  > <mailto:horsegirrl%40hotmail.com> > wrote:
                  >
                  > > **
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                  > > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                  > > >
                  > > > Peter
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
                  > >
                  > > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443
                  > <https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&
                  > wc=10600137> &wc=10600137
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > PLEASE STAY ON-TOPIC (GENEALOGY). OFF-TOPIC ITEMS WILL BE BLOCKED.
                  >
                  > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                  > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                  > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo
                  > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo> ! Groups Links
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • htcstech
                  Lisa! You are right! It is Petrov and not Badnar. I m used to record entries where the name of the child is on the same line as the name of the father, with
                  Message 8 of 24 , Sep 21, 2011
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                    Lisa!
                    You are right! It is Petrov and not Badnar.
                    I'm used to record entries where the name of the child is on the same line
                    as the name of the father, with the mother below. Just so happens that in
                    this case, the child was on the same line as the mother, with the father
                    above. I should have picked it up though.
                    Nice catch!

                    Peter

                    On 21 September 2011 23:47, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    > Just to double check, in this particular record is the father's name above
                    > or below the mother's? He was known as Antonius Pigza in subsequent records,
                    > but his children went by Petro(Pigza), that's why I asked about the position
                    > of the father's name, I assumed that Antonius' father was Gregorius Petrov,
                    > in which case the change would kind of make sense.
                    > Thanks!
                    >
                    > Lisa
                    >
                    > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
                    > > Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
                    > > 1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
                    > > For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
                    > > birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!
                    > >
                    > > So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was
                    > he
                    > > called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
                    > > Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
                    > > she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.
                    > >
                    > > What a delicious problem!
                    > >
                    > > Well, if it was my family tree, I would:
                    > >
                    > > 1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from
                    > then
                    > > on.
                    > > 2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same
                    > book
                    > > - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
                    > > 3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years
                    > between
                    > > 1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was
                    > married
                    > > AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the
                    > line
                    > > *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
                    > > It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could
                    > have
                    > > been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
                    > > important.
                    > >
                    > > Please keep me informed.
                    > >
                    > > I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
                    > > other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the
                    > same
                    > > name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from
                    > 2
                    > > fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.
                    > >
                    > > I reckon you've got it easy!
                    > >
                    > > Peter
                    > >
                    > > On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > **
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                    > > > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Peter
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
                    > > >
                    > > > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&wc=10600137
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • htcstech
                    Re: Illegitimate child out of wedlock. I have an example in my line where a marriage has taken place and the father died a month before the birth of his
                    Message 9 of 24 , Sep 21, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Re: Illegitimate child out of wedlock.

                      I have an example in my line where a marriage has taken place and the father
                      died a month before the birth of his daughter. The priest marked her as
                      illegitimate. She became legitimised when the mother remarried.

                      I have picked up an error - a duplicate entry a few days apart, so I presume
                      that the records I'm looking at aren't 100% reliable :(

                      Peter

                      On 22 September 2011 04:12, Elaine <epowell@...> wrote:

                      > **
                      >
                      >
                      > Frank,
                      >
                      > This is not about illegitimate children, but I have always enjoyed your tag
                      > line "looking for Plichtas all over the world" (I paraphrase). I was in
                      > Kostolany nad Horn�dom recently and saw an old record that contained a
                      > Plichta. Have you found some relatives there?
                      >
                      > Elaine
                      >
                      > Sent from my iPhone
                      >
                      >
                      > On Sep 21, 2011, at 5:06 PM, "Frank R Plichta" <
                      > frank.r.plichta@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > Ladislav,
                      > >
                      > > I would look at the marital status of the parents at the time the child
                      > was
                      > > born rather than when the child was conceived. If the couple was
                      > 1)married
                      > > and then 2) the child was born, it doesn't matter when the father died,
                      > even
                      > > if the father died before the child was born.
                      > >
                      > > Either the child was legitimate or not. The only criteria that I see is
                      > > that the couple was married before the birth.
                      > >
                      > > Enjoy,
                      > >
                      > > Frank
                      > >
                      > > _____
                      > >
                      > > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
                      > On
                      > > Behalf Of lacoros@...
                      > > Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 10:47 AM
                      > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Subject: [S-R] Re: illegitimate children
                      > >
                      > > When was a child illegitimate? My idea was clear - when a child was born
                      > > less then 7-8 months after marriage or more then 9-10 months after death
                      > of
                      > > the father.
                      > >
                      > > My great surprise was finding a legitimate child 2 months before the
                      > > wedding. After this a legitimate child born two months after wedding was
                      > not
                      > > so surprising. Both children born about 1840. Also after seeing entries
                      > > where after 10-20 years was a child re-legitimized and a father was
                      > added, i
                      > > assume that in some time illegitimate child would mean "father unknown"
                      > or
                      > > "father didn't give his consent to be written as the father".
                      > >
                      > > Whats you opinion about this?
                      > >
                      > > Ladislav
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: htcstech <htcstech@... <mailto:htcstech%40gmail.com> >
                      > > Sender: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:
                      > SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > >
                      > > Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:25:47
                      > > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > >
                      > > Reply-To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      > > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check
                      > >
                      > > Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
                      > > Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
                      > > 1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
                      > > For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
                      > > birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!
                      > >
                      > > So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was
                      > he
                      > > called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?
                      > >
                      > > Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
                      > > Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
                      > > she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.
                      > >
                      > > What a delicious problem!
                      > >
                      > > Well, if it was my family tree, I would:
                      > >
                      > > 1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from
                      > then
                      > > on.
                      > > 2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same
                      > book
                      > > - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
                      > > 3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years
                      > between
                      > > 1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was
                      > married
                      > > AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the
                      > line
                      > > *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
                      > > It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could
                      > have
                      > > been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
                      > > important.
                      > >
                      > > Please keep me informed.
                      > >
                      > > I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
                      > > other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the
                      > same
                      > > name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from
                      > 2
                      > > fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.
                      > >
                      > > I reckon you've got it easy!
                      > >
                      > > Peter
                      > >
                      > > On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...
                      > > <mailto:horsegirrl%40hotmail.com> > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > **
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                      > > > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Peter
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
                      > > >
                      > > > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443
                      > > <
                      > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&
                      > > wc=10600137> &wc=10600137
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > PLEASE STAY ON-TOPIC (GENEALOGY). OFF-TOPIC ITEMS WILL BE BLOCKED.
                      > >
                      > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
                      > >
                      > > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                      > > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                      > > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo
                      > > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo> ! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >


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