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Re: [S-R] Re: Question on definitions

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  • Bernardine Weigand
    Frank and Ron, I continue to learn so much from your posts and dialogue. Your explanations are always comprehensive. Printing them out allows me easy access
    Message 1 of 4 , Jan 21, 2001
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      Frank and Ron,

      I continue to learn so much from your posts and dialogue. Your explanations are always comprehensive. Printing them out allows me easy access for future reference.

      Thank you both.

      Bernardine

      Ron Matviyak wrote:
      >
      > Now THAT is what I call an answer, Frank! Now that I understand your
      > reasoning it won't bother me in the future.
      >
      > I'll stick to 1918 myself, out of habit and since I like the idea of the
      > country having been founded before
      > the war was ended. That is a rather powerful occurrence, being recognized
      > as a legitimate nation before the old Empire was carved up. Of course that
      > means the borders were undefined, and were not fully defined until the 1920
      > you prefer. If it were up to the Hungarians, Slovakia and Ruthenia would
      > never have been a part of the first Czechoslovak republic, so I tend to
      > disregard their irredentism. That is another powerful word that I only see
      > used in this sense - and I think of the Hungarian attitude toward their
      > neighbors as the perfect example of the word.
      >
      > One last thought. Was the US founded in 1776 with the declaration of
      > independence, or the Articles of Confederation, or with the adoption of the
      > Constitution around 1789? (those dates are all form memory, so let the acts
      > and not the dates be the message). That is another reason I will stick
      > with 1918 - you never read about a two year interim government of
      > Czechoslovakia, 1918 - 1920.
      >
      > In any case I appreciate the good answer.
      >
      > Ron
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Frank Kurchina <frankur@...>
      > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com>
      > Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 8:32 AM
      > Subject: [S-R] Re: Question on definitions
      >
      >
      > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com, "Ron Matviyak" <amiak@a...> wrote:
      > > > Darn, Frank,
      > > > That is a great tour de force that no one else would have the
      > > patience and
      > > > ability to assemble. Just PLEASE change the date of the founding of
      > > > Czechoslovakia from 1920 to 1918!
      > > >
      > > > Thanks for answering this as no one else can -
      > > >
      > > > Ron
      > >
      > >
      > > Yes and No, Ron
      > >
      > > Yes
      > >
      > > In May 1918, the representatives of the resistance movement abroad
      > > had signed the Pittsburgh PA Convention, which approved the formation
      > > of a joint new state composed of Slovakia and the Czech lands.
      > >
      > > In October 1918, Masaryk, Benes and Stefanik obtained recognition of
      > > the Czechoslovak National Council as the interim government of the
      > > Czech Republic from the Allied Powers.
      > >
      > > On November 14, 1918, the interim Parliament declared that the new
      > > Czechoslovak state would be a republic, and named Tom? �s^ Garrigue
      > > Masaryk as the first President.
      > >
      > >
      > > Officially No
      > > >From November 1918 to June 1920, Hungary was without internationally
      > > defined and recognized borders.
      > >
      > > Following the First World War, new borders for Austro-Hungarian
      > > Monarchy were set by the Treaties of Saint Germain-en-Laye (September
      > > 10, 1919)and Trianon (June 4, 1920)
      > >
      > > Austria and Hungary laid down their arms together on November 3, 1918.
      > >
      > > But they signed their peace treaties separately on different dates :
      > > Austria in 1919 and Hungary not until 1920 as above.
      > >
      > > On November 8, 1918, the Czechoslovak government ordered its troops to
      > > advance into Upper-Hungary in order to claim "Slovakia" as its own
      > > and occupied the territory.
      > >
      > > In May 1919 (during Paris Peace Conference) the Hungarian Army
      > > counterattacked on Czechoslovak front, advancing through Kos^ice,
      > > Pres^ov, and Bardejov.
      > >
      > > On June 13, 1919 all interested parties received a note from Supreme
      > > Council in Paris defining Hungary's new boundaries and asking
      > > Budapest, Prague, and Bucharest to withdraw their troops behind these
      > > borders.
      > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: Frank Kurchina <frankur@a...>
      > > > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com>
      > > > Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 4:43 AM
      > > > Subject: [S-R] Re: Question on definitions
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com, Tarzantu2@a... wrote:
      > > > > > Great question, Maura. It is extremely complicated, especially
      > > in
      > > > > the period
      > > > > > from 1825 to 1910. Growing up, Bohemia was used to describe
      > > where
      > > > > my
      > > > > > grandmother came from. As best as I can determine now, it was
      > > > > Bobrov,
      > > > > > Slovakia (now a part of Poland). But what was it in 1885?
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Austria when it was a part of Germany was used to describe
      > > where
      > > my
      > > > > > grandfather came from. From his naturalization papers he listed
      > > > > Durand,
      > > > > > Hungary (now Tvarozna, Slovakia). What was this area called
      > > from
      > > > > his birth
      > > > > > in 1884 to his emigration in 1905? And of interest, a baptismal
      > > > > record
      > > > > > obtained from the catholic church in Tvarozna in the 1940s,
      > > listed
      > > > > his place
      > > > > > of birth as Tvarozna. Could they have substituted the original
      > > > > information
      > > > > > for the current one of that moment?
      > > > > >
      > > > > > We all have questions of this type and anything to help clear
      > > it
      > > up
      > > > > would be
      > > > > > greatly appreciated.
      > > > > > Ray
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Some interesting points since the gazetteer of Hungary is dated
      > > 1882.
      > > > > There also seems to be a bit of confusion on correct locations ?
      > > > >
      > > > > Austria was not part of Germany.
      > > > > Czech-Bohemia (including Moravia 1849-1918) was a kingdom
      > > > > (10th century-1918) and part of the ? �sterreichisch-ungarische
      > > > > Monarchie (G)
      > > > > In English, Austro-Hungarian Monarchy.
      > > > > German and Czech languages were used.
      > > > > It was an Austrian Kr? �neland.
      > > > > M? �hren => Maehren => Marin => Moravia.
      > > > > M? �hren was an Austrian Crownland located East of B? �hmen
      > > (Bohemia).
      > > > > Its capital was Br? �nn (G) Brno.
      > > > > M? �hren (G) had been a separate crownland until 1849 when it
      > > became a
      > > > > part of B? �hmen (G) Bohemia together with ?
      > > �sterreichisch-Schleisen
      > > (G)
      > > > > (Austrian-Silesia).
      > > > >
      > > > > The Austrian Habsburgs, accustomed to being imperial, had assumed
      > > the
      > > > > title of Emperor of Austria in 1804. Later, the "dual-monarchy"
      > > was
      > > > > established, with the Habsburgs as Emperors of Austria and Kings
      > > of
      > > > > Hungary, the combined realm being known as "Austria-Hungary".
      > > > >
      > > > > Bobrov (Sv) Bobrow (P) Bobr? � (H) is located 142 miles NE of
      > > Bratislava
      > > > > near N? �mestovo (Sv) Nameszt? � (H) at the current Polish
      > > border.
      > > > >
      > > > > Before WWI, Slovakia was part of Upper-Hungary (Felvid? �k) and
      > > > > part of Austro-Hungarian Monarchy (1867-1918) and earlier the
      > > > > Austrian Empire.
      > > > >
      > > > > 1885-1918
      > > > >
      > > > > Osztr? �k-Magyar Monarchia (H)
      > > > > ? �sterreichisch-ungarische Monarchie (G)
      > > > > or in English, Austro-Hungarian Monarchy.
      > > > > A'rava Megye (county)
      > > > > Nameszt? � j? �r? �s (district)
      > > > > => Bobr? � (village)
      > > > >
      > > > > Tvaroz^n? � (Sv) Dur? �nd (H) is located 166 miles ENE of
      > > Bratislava
      > > and
      > > > > just east of Poprad .
      > > > >
      > > > > (There is another Tvaroz^n? � (Sv) located 125 miles ENE of
      > > Bratislava
      > > > > and 7 miles ENE of Ruz^omberok (Sv) Rosenberg (G) and 21 miles
      > > from
      > > > > Bobrov ?
      > > > > This latter Tvaroz^n? � is located at another settlement called
      > > > > Bobrovn? �k located on edge of another big lake)
      > > > >
      > > > > 1884-1918
      > > > >
      > > > > Osztr? �k-Magyar Monarchia (H)
      > > > > ? �sterreichisch-ungarische Monarchie (G)
      > > > > Szepes Megye (county)
      > > > > T? �tra j? �r? �s (district)
      > > > > => Dur? �nd (large village)
      > > > >
      > > > > In 1920, a newly-formed country of Czechoslovakia (1920-1938) was
      > > > > created from the Austrian Crownlands (Bohemia, Moravia and
      > > > > Austrian-Silesia) and a portion of Upper-Hungary (Slovakia and
      > > > > Karpatho-Ukraine).
      > > > >
      > > > > (Until this time there was no country called "Czechoslovakia")
      > > > >
      > > > > After WW 2, from 1945 - 1992 this again was the state of
      > > > > Czechoslovakia.
      > > > > After 1948, the Czechoslovakia Socialist Republic (CSR)
      > > > > In 1993 the CSR was dissolved into the Czech Republic and Republic
      > > > > of Slovakia.
      > > > >
      > > > > v
      > > > > Frank Kurcina
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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