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Re: [S-R] Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check

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  • Judy
    Re: kozr/kozv If you scan back through the film until the handwriting changes, sometimes you can get a different scribe s way of writing the word. Back on
    Message 1 of 24 , Sep 2, 2011
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      Re: kozr/kozv


      If you scan back through the film until the handwriting changes, sometimes you can get a different scribe's way of writing the word. Back on page 68 of your film, it looks like the word is written as "kozrenduek", again witout the marks above. Even with that though, I cannot tell you the meaning. Page 67 uses the original preprinted headers. In the 5th column I believe the header says something on the order of "regular civil status" and the word "kozrenduek" is listed most of the time under that heading. In 99% of the ones I've seen, the word used means "commoner, farmer, peasant" or something like that. Maybe someone more familiar with the Hungarian vocabulary has a translation for "kozrenduek",

      Judy



      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Ladislav Rosival" <lacoros@...> wrote:
      >
      > Just some addition
      >
      > the abbrevitation h.sz. means "ház szám" = house number
      >
      > bans of mariage: "3-szor kihirdetvék" = (banns) 3-times announced
      >
      > I am not able to find out what the "közv" (or közr.) stands for - it is the description of the status of the person, i am quiete sure it means peasant - most of the people have this abrevitations.
      >
      > My last observation - the parents of Istvan and Anna were living at the time of mariage - when not they would be marked as "bold.(ogult)" - like in line 20.
      >
      > Ladislav
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Judy
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 10:04 PM
      > Subject: Re: [S-R] Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Judy Hogel <hogelj@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Sorry for the jammed text, see if this is better.
      >
      > > Lisa, It has been a while since I looked at the church records in Hungarian, but I'll give it a try for you. I dont have the markings above the letters, but you can figure that out.
      >
      > 19 is the sequential entry number, not the date
      > Marriage date is May 23, 1892
      >
      > Hvosztaly Istvan , son of Domonkos and Anna Burda
      > (Pigza)Petro Anna daughter of Antal and Maria Matisz, not sure of what the kozr means
      >
      > Cz. H. Mezo (Cz. H. Mezoientis) this is the village name abreviated
      >
      > 57 and 154 are the house numbers, not sure of what the hsz but maybe abreviation for haz=house
      >
      > notlen=single man, hajadon=single unmarried girl
      >
      > rkath=Roman Catholic
      >
      > the dates are their respective birthdates, approximately 23 and 24, you can figure them out exactly with the dates
      >
      > sponsors: Krivjanszk, Jozseef, Petrik, Tamas, again kozr?
      >
      > Name of clergy: ugyanaz=same, Hamorszky, Andras
      >
      > bans of marriage: I think the symbol is like a ditto, top entry translates to _______ ________ none impediment (I guess no objection),I'm not sure about the first two words
      >
      > comments: blank
      >
      > The records are so nicely written, you are lucky.
      > Hope this helps some.
      >
      > Judy
      > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > From: horsegirrl@
      > > Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 17:29:37 +0000
      > > Subject: [S-R] Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check
      > >
      > >
      > >
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      > >
      > > Hi,
      > >
      > > I think I found the entry for my 2G-Grandparents, but I would like other eyes to take a look:
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11575-164613-79?cc=1554443&wc=10600180
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > #19--May 23, 1892
      > >
      > > Hvosztaly, Istvan
      > >
      > > (Pigra)Petro, Anna
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Please tell me what you see for the rest of the entry.
      > >
      > > Thank you for your help!
      > >
      > > Lisa
      > >
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      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • lisan533
      Thank you so much for all of your help and expertise. Any idea how to cite this record?
      Message 2 of 24 , Sep 4, 2011
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        Thank you so much for all of your help and expertise. Any idea how to cite this record?
      • Judy
        The genealogy software program that I use (Legacy) has an automatic source citation generator in which you answer questions about the source you are using and
        Message 3 of 24 , Sep 4, 2011
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          The genealogy software program that I use (Legacy) has an automatic source citation generator in which you answer questions about the source you are using and the program generates the citation for you. I just use what my program generates because that is the easiest way for me to do it. Example of my citation:

          (Edelény, Borsod, Hungary), Marriage Register for the year 1870, section 257/3, page 23, marriage of Mihaly _____ and Maria _____ (1870), FHL microfilm 623,338. Family History Library, Salt Lake City, Utah.

          Here are some other possibilities:

          Elizabeth Shown Mills in her book Evidence Explained, Citing History Sources from Artifacts to Cyberspace, page 365, gives this example of a citation for a FHL microfilm:

          Tomter Anex, (Romedal Parish, Hedmark Country, Norway), Ministerial records, 1861-1869. FHL Microfilm 124,386, item 4. Family History Library. Salt Lake City, Utah.

          Pro genealogists on-line doesn't show a FHL microfilm citation for foreign church records that I can see, but they do show this citation for a FHL microfilm:

          State of Maine, Division of Vital Statistics Index to Vital Records, 1908-1922, Morrowski - Mullen (Salt Lake City: Microfilmed by the Genealogical Society of Utah, 1954), Family History Library Microfilm 010163.

          Judy





          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "lisan533" <horsegirrl@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thank you so much for all of your help and expertise. Any idea how to cite this record?
          >
        • htcstech
          A very interesting entry! It reads: Groom: Hvosztaly Istvan (Notlen meaning Unmarried) Family lives in House or Lot 57 Father of the Groom: Hvosztaly Domonkos
          Message 4 of 24 , Sep 5, 2011
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            A very interesting entry!

            It reads:
            Groom: Hvosztaly Istvan (Notlen meaning Unmarried) Family lives in House or
            Lot 57
            Father of the Groom: Hvosztaly Domonkos
            Mother of Groom: Burda Anna (Burda being her family name)
            Bride: (Pigza) Petro Anna (Hajadon meaning 'Maid' meaning virgin meaning
            unmarried with no illegitimate children beforehand). Family lives in House
            or Lot 164
            Father of Bride: Petro (Pigza) Antal
            Mother of Bride: Matisz Maria

            "Kozr" should be the employment of the groom (and bride), but I've got no
            idea what it means. Maybe mining?

            Now compare the entry just above of the 11th.
            A Burda Anna was the mother of another child with a different surname.
            Either Burda Anna remarried, or there were 2 Burda Anna's (Possible if there
            were a few lines in the family- That would make both Burda Annas' cousins or
            an aunt).

            The (Pigza)-Petro surname is also interesting.
            I would most certainly look from 9 months ahead in the baptism records (if
            available) and see if they (Groom and Bride) have children. You should be
            able to check her surname.

            Find any other Pigza surnames in the past or future for confirmation.

            Check marriage records for the marriage of Burda Anna.

            Check the death records of Szolomes Martin and Hvosztaly Domonkos. Trace
            both families. You may have half brothers/sisters in this line.

            Peter


            On 5 September 2011 03:22, Judy <hogelj@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > The genealogy software program that I use (Legacy) has an automatic source
            > citation generator in which you answer questions about the source you are
            > using and the program generates the citation for you. I just use what my
            > program generates because that is the easiest way for me to do it. Example
            > of my citation:
            >
            > (Edel�ny, Borsod, Hungary), Marriage Register for the year 1870, section
            > 257/3, page 23, marriage of Mihaly _____ and Maria _____ (1870), FHL
            > microfilm 623,338. Family History Library, Salt Lake City, Utah.
            >
            > Here are some other possibilities:
            >
            > Elizabeth Shown Mills in her book Evidence Explained, Citing History
            > Sources from Artifacts to Cyberspace, page 365, gives this example of a
            > citation for a FHL microfilm:
            >
            > Tomter Anex, (Romedal Parish, Hedmark Country, Norway), Ministerial
            > records, 1861-1869. FHL Microfilm 124,386, item 4. Family History Library.
            > Salt Lake City, Utah.
            >
            > Pro genealogists on-line doesn't show a FHL microfilm citation for foreign
            > church records that I can see, but they do show this citation for a FHL
            > microfilm:
            >
            > State of Maine, Division of Vital Statistics Index to Vital Records,
            > 1908-1922, Morrowski - Mullen (Salt Lake City: Microfilmed by the
            > Genealogical Society of Utah, 1954), Family History Library Microfilm
            > 010163.
            >
            > Judy
            >
            >
            > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "lisan533" <horsegirrl@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Thank you so much for all of your help and expertise. Any idea how to
            > cite this record?
            > >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • lisan533
            The (Pigza)-Petro surname is also interesting. Any idea why there is this variation in surname? She was listed in this way for every listing I could find
            Message 5 of 24 , Sep 12, 2011
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              "The (Pigza)-Petro surname is also interesting."

              Any idea why there is this variation in surname? She was listed in this way for every listing I could find for her. There continued to be Pigza surnames throughout.

              Lisa
            • htcstech
              Hello Lisa, It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried. Peter ...
              Message 6 of 24 , Sep 12, 2011
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                Hello Lisa,

                It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.

                Peter

                On 13 September 2011 08:39, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:

                > **
                >
                >
                > "The (Pigza)-Petro surname is also interesting."
                >
                > Any idea why there is this variation in surname? She was listed in this way
                > for every listing I could find for her. There continued to be Pigza surnames
                > throughout.
                >
                > Lisa
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • lisan533
                Thank you! Lisa
                Message 7 of 24 , Sep 19, 2011
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                  Thank you!

                  Lisa

                  --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Lisa,
                  >
                  > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                  > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                  >
                  > Peter
                  >
                  > On 13 September 2011 08:39, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > **
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > "The (Pigza)-Petro surname is also interesting."
                  > >
                  > > Any idea why there is this variation in surname? She was listed in this way
                  > > for every listing I could find for her. There continued to be Pigza surnames
                  > > throughout.
                  > >
                  > > Lisa
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • lisan533
                  ... Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father s baptismal entry: Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                  Message 8 of 24 , Sep 20, 2011
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                    > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                    > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                    >
                    > Peter
                    >

                    Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:

                    Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.

                    https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&wc=10600137
                  • htcstech
                    Where found, every entry I ve seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded. Obviously not in this case, and I can t think of a reason, certainly in 1848, where a
                    Message 9 of 24 , Sep 20, 2011
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                      Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
                      Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
                      1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
                      For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
                      birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!

                      So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was he
                      called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?


                      Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
                      Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
                      she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.

                      What a delicious problem!

                      Well, if it was my family tree, I would:

                      1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from then
                      on.
                      2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same book
                      - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
                      3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years between
                      1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was married
                      AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the line
                      *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
                      It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could have
                      been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
                      important.

                      Please keep me informed.

                      I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
                      other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the same
                      name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from 2
                      fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.

                      I reckon you've got it easy!

                      Peter

                      On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:

                      > **
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                      > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                      > >
                      > > Peter
                      > >
                      >
                      > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
                      >
                      > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                      >
                      >
                      > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&wc=10600137
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Michael Mojher
                      Peter, I don t know if it relevant to this case. In the past there was a discussion where a family line died of because there were no sons. Since the family
                      Message 10 of 24 , Sep 20, 2011
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                        Peter,
                        I don't know if it relevant to this case. In the past there was a
                        discussion where a family line died of because there were no sons. Since the
                        family owned land they had a son-in-law take on the family name to continue
                        it. It seems the Slovaks were creative in the use of surnames

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: htcstech
                        Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 9:25 AM
                        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check

                        Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
                        Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
                        1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
                        For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
                        birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!

                        So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was he
                        called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?


                        Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
                        Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
                        she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.

                        What a delicious problem!

                        Well, if it was my family tree, I would:

                        1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from then
                        on.
                        2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same book
                        - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
                        3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years between
                        1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was married
                        AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the line
                        *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
                        It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could have
                        been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
                        important.

                        Please keep me informed.

                        I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
                        other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the same
                        name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from 2
                        fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.

                        I reckon you've got it easy!

                        Peter

                        On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                        > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                        > >
                        > > Peter
                        > >
                        >
                        > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
                        >
                        > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                        >
                        >
                        > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&wc=10600137
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                        ------------------------------------

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                      • htcstech
                        An excellent point! Probably the case or something very similar. I also found one of my ancestors, a widow, looking after at least 3 children whose parents
                        Message 11 of 24 , Sep 20, 2011
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                          An excellent point! Probably the case or something very similar. I also
                          found one of my ancestors, a widow, looking after at least 3 children whose
                          parents died in the village. The children were very young and died within a
                          few years, never getting old enough to marry. They were entered in the death
                          record by their father's last name. However in this case, the priest made it
                          obvious that they were fostered.

                          Just for the record, 1848 was the year the revolution started. Pigza could
                          have died as a result?

                          Peter

                          BTW: The longer I do this, the prouder I become of my Slovak heritage and
                          the Slovak people in general. I can see now why my father was so calm and
                          hardly ever angry.
                          Our Rus cousins, as well as the Magyars and Germans, had a terrible time in
                          Vojvodina, Serbia. The Slovak-Magyar mix in the north was much more peaceful
                          and civilized than what happened in the south with the Serbian communists.

                          On 21 September 2011 02:55, Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:

                          > Peter,
                          > I don't know if it relevant to this case. In the past there was a
                          > discussion where a family line died of because there were no sons. Since
                          > the
                          > family owned land they had a son-in-law take on the family name to continue
                          > it. It seems the Slovaks were creative in the use of surnames
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: htcstech
                          > Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 9:25 AM
                          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check
                          >
                          > Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
                          > Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
                          > 1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
                          > For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
                          > birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!
                          >
                          > So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was
                          > he
                          > called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?
                          >
                          >
                          > Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
                          > Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
                          > she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.
                          >
                          > What a delicious problem!
                          >
                          > Well, if it was my family tree, I would:
                          >
                          > 1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from
                          > then
                          > on.
                          > 2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same book
                          > - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
                          > 3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years between
                          > 1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was married
                          > AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the
                          > line
                          > *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
                          > It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could have
                          > been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
                          > important.
                          >
                          > Please keep me informed.
                          >
                          > I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
                          > other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the same
                          > name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from 2
                          > fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.
                          >
                          > I reckon you've got it easy!
                          >
                          > Peter
                          >
                          > On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > **
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                          > > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                          > > >
                          > > > Peter
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
                          > >
                          > > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&wc=10600137
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          >
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                          >
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                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
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                          >
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                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • lisan533
                          Just to double check, in this particular record is the father s name above or below the mother s? He was known as Antonius Pigza in subsequent records, but
                          Message 12 of 24 , Sep 21, 2011
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                            Just to double check, in this particular record is the father's name above or below the mother's? He was known as Antonius Pigza in subsequent records, but his children went by Petro(Pigza), that's why I asked about the position of the father's name, I assumed that Antonius' father was Gregorius Petrov, in which case the change would kind of make sense.
                            Thanks!
                            Lisa

                            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
                            > Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
                            > 1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
                            > For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
                            > birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!
                            >
                            > So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was he
                            > called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?
                            >
                            >
                            > Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
                            > Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
                            > she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.
                            >
                            > What a delicious problem!
                            >
                            > Well, if it was my family tree, I would:
                            >
                            > 1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from then
                            > on.
                            > 2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same book
                            > - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
                            > 3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years between
                            > 1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was married
                            > AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the line
                            > *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
                            > It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could have
                            > been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
                            > important.
                            >
                            > Please keep me informed.
                            >
                            > I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
                            > other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the same
                            > name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from 2
                            > fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.
                            >
                            > I reckon you've got it easy!
                            >
                            > Peter
                            >
                            > On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > **
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                            > > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                            > > >
                            > > > Peter
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
                            > >
                            > > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&wc=10600137
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • lacoros@gmail.com
                            When was a child illegitimate? My idea was clear - when a child was born less then 7-8 months after marriage or more then 9-10 months after death of the
                            Message 13 of 24 , Sep 21, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              When was a child illegitimate? My idea was clear - when a child was born less then 7-8 months after marriage or more then 9-10 months after death of the father.

                              My great surprise was finding a legitimate child 2 months before the wedding. After this a legitimate child born two months after wedding was not so surprising. Both children born about 1840. Also after seeing entries where after 10-20 years was a child re-legitimized and a father was added, i assume that in some time illegitimate child would mean "father unknown" or "father didn't give his consent to be written as the father".

                              Whats you opinion about this?


                              Ladislav
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: htcstech <htcstech@...>
                              Sender: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:25:47
                              To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
                              Reply-To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check

                              Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
                              Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
                              1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
                              For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
                              birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!

                              So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was he
                              called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?


                              Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
                              Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
                              she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.

                              What a delicious problem!

                              Well, if it was my family tree, I would:

                              1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from then
                              on.
                              2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same book
                              - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
                              3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years between
                              1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was married
                              AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the line
                              *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
                              It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could have
                              been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
                              important.

                              Please keep me informed.

                              I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
                              other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the same
                              name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from 2
                              fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.

                              I reckon you've got it easy!

                              Peter

                              On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:

                              > **
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                              > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                              > >
                              > > Peter
                              > >
                              >
                              > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
                              >
                              > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                              >
                              >
                              > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&wc=10600137
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                              ------------------------------------

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                            • Frank R Plichta
                              Ladislav, I would look at the marital status of the parents at the time the child was born rather than when the child was conceived. If the couple was
                              Message 14 of 24 , Sep 21, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Ladislav,



                                I would look at the marital status of the parents at the time the child was
                                born rather than when the child was conceived. If the couple was 1)married
                                and then 2) the child was born, it doesn't matter when the father died, even
                                if the father died before the child was born.



                                Either the child was legitimate or not. The only criteria that I see is
                                that the couple was married before the birth.



                                Enjoy,

                                Frank



                                _____

                                From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                                Behalf Of lacoros@...
                                Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 10:47 AM
                                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [S-R] Re: illegitimate children






                                When was a child illegitimate? My idea was clear - when a child was born
                                less then 7-8 months after marriage or more then 9-10 months after death of
                                the father.

                                My great surprise was finding a legitimate child 2 months before the
                                wedding. After this a legitimate child born two months after wedding was not
                                so surprising. Both children born about 1840. Also after seeing entries
                                where after 10-20 years was a child re-legitimized and a father was added, i
                                assume that in some time illegitimate child would mean "father unknown" or
                                "father didn't give his consent to be written as the father".

                                Whats you opinion about this?


                                Ladislav
                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: htcstech <htcstech@... <mailto:htcstech%40gmail.com> >
                                Sender: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>

                                Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:25:47
                                To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> >
                                Reply-To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check

                                Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
                                Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
                                1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
                                For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
                                birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!

                                So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was he
                                called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?


                                Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
                                Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
                                she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.

                                What a delicious problem!

                                Well, if it was my family tree, I would:

                                1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from then
                                on.
                                2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same book
                                - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
                                3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years between
                                1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was married
                                AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the line
                                *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
                                It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could have
                                been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
                                important.

                                Please keep me informed.

                                I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
                                other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the same
                                name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from 2
                                fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.

                                I reckon you've got it easy!

                                Peter

                                On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...
                                <mailto:horsegirrl%40hotmail.com> > wrote:

                                > **
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                                > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                                > >
                                > > Peter
                                > >
                                >
                                > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
                                >
                                > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                                >
                                >
                                > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443
                                <https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&
                                wc=10600137> &wc=10600137
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                ------------------------------------

                                PLEASE STAY ON-TOPIC (GENEALOGY). OFF-TOPIC ITEMS WILL BE BLOCKED.

                                To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                                <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo> ! Groups Links








                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Elaine
                                Frank, This is not about illegitimate children, but I have always enjoyed your tag line looking for Plichtas all over the world (I paraphrase). I was in
                                Message 15 of 24 , Sep 21, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Frank,

                                  This is not about illegitimate children, but I have always enjoyed your tag line "looking for Plichtas all over the world" (I paraphrase). I was in Kostolany nad Hornádom recently and saw an old record that contained a Plichta. Have you found some relatives there?

                                  Elaine

                                  Sent from my iPhone

                                  On Sep 21, 2011, at 5:06 PM, "Frank R Plichta" <frank.r.plichta@...> wrote:

                                  > Ladislav,
                                  >
                                  > I would look at the marital status of the parents at the time the child was
                                  > born rather than when the child was conceived. If the couple was 1)married
                                  > and then 2) the child was born, it doesn't matter when the father died, even
                                  > if the father died before the child was born.
                                  >
                                  > Either the child was legitimate or not. The only criteria that I see is
                                  > that the couple was married before the birth.
                                  >
                                  > Enjoy,
                                  >
                                  > Frank
                                  >
                                  > _____
                                  >
                                  > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  > Behalf Of lacoros@...
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 10:47 AM
                                  > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [S-R] Re: illegitimate children
                                  >
                                  > When was a child illegitimate? My idea was clear - when a child was born
                                  > less then 7-8 months after marriage or more then 9-10 months after death of
                                  > the father.
                                  >
                                  > My great surprise was finding a legitimate child 2 months before the
                                  > wedding. After this a legitimate child born two months after wedding was not
                                  > so surprising. Both children born about 1840. Also after seeing entries
                                  > where after 10-20 years was a child re-legitimized and a father was added, i
                                  > assume that in some time illegitimate child would mean "father unknown" or
                                  > "father didn't give his consent to be written as the father".
                                  >
                                  > Whats you opinion about this?
                                  >
                                  > Ladislav
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: htcstech <htcstech@... <mailto:htcstech%40gmail.com> >
                                  > Sender: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  >
                                  > Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:25:47
                                  > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> >
                                  > Reply-To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                  > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check
                                  >
                                  > Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
                                  > Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
                                  > 1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
                                  > For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
                                  > birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!
                                  >
                                  > So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was he
                                  > called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?
                                  >
                                  > Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
                                  > Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
                                  > she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.
                                  >
                                  > What a delicious problem!
                                  >
                                  > Well, if it was my family tree, I would:
                                  >
                                  > 1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from then
                                  > on.
                                  > 2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same book
                                  > - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
                                  > 3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years between
                                  > 1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was married
                                  > AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the line
                                  > *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
                                  > It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could have
                                  > been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
                                  > important.
                                  >
                                  > Please keep me informed.
                                  >
                                  > I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
                                  > other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the same
                                  > name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from 2
                                  > fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.
                                  >
                                  > I reckon you've got it easy!
                                  >
                                  > Peter
                                  >
                                  > On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...
                                  > <mailto:horsegirrl%40hotmail.com> > wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > **
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                                  > > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Peter
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
                                  > >
                                  > > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443
                                  > <https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&
                                  > wc=10600137> &wc=10600137
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > PLEASE STAY ON-TOPIC (GENEALOGY). OFF-TOPIC ITEMS WILL BE BLOCKED.
                                  >
                                  > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
                                  >
                                  > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                                  > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                                  > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo
                                  > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo> ! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • htcstech
                                  Lisa! You are right! It is Petrov and not Badnar. I m used to record entries where the name of the child is on the same line as the name of the father, with
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Sep 21, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Lisa!
                                    You are right! It is Petrov and not Badnar.
                                    I'm used to record entries where the name of the child is on the same line
                                    as the name of the father, with the mother below. Just so happens that in
                                    this case, the child was on the same line as the mother, with the father
                                    above. I should have picked it up though.
                                    Nice catch!

                                    Peter

                                    On 21 September 2011 23:47, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:

                                    > **
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Just to double check, in this particular record is the father's name above
                                    > or below the mother's? He was known as Antonius Pigza in subsequent records,
                                    > but his children went by Petro(Pigza), that's why I asked about the position
                                    > of the father's name, I assumed that Antonius' father was Gregorius Petrov,
                                    > in which case the change would kind of make sense.
                                    > Thanks!
                                    >
                                    > Lisa
                                    >
                                    > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
                                    > > Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
                                    > > 1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
                                    > > For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
                                    > > birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!
                                    > >
                                    > > So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was
                                    > he
                                    > > called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
                                    > > Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
                                    > > she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.
                                    > >
                                    > > What a delicious problem!
                                    > >
                                    > > Well, if it was my family tree, I would:
                                    > >
                                    > > 1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from
                                    > then
                                    > > on.
                                    > > 2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same
                                    > book
                                    > > - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
                                    > > 3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years
                                    > between
                                    > > 1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was
                                    > married
                                    > > AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the
                                    > line
                                    > > *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
                                    > > It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could
                                    > have
                                    > > been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
                                    > > important.
                                    > >
                                    > > Please keep me informed.
                                    > >
                                    > > I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
                                    > > other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the
                                    > same
                                    > > name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from
                                    > 2
                                    > > fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.
                                    > >
                                    > > I reckon you've got it easy!
                                    > >
                                    > > Peter
                                    > >
                                    > > On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > > **
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                                    > > > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Peter
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&wc=10600137
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • htcstech
                                    Re: Illegitimate child out of wedlock. I have an example in my line where a marriage has taken place and the father died a month before the birth of his
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Sep 21, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Re: Illegitimate child out of wedlock.

                                      I have an example in my line where a marriage has taken place and the father
                                      died a month before the birth of his daughter. The priest marked her as
                                      illegitimate. She became legitimised when the mother remarried.

                                      I have picked up an error - a duplicate entry a few days apart, so I presume
                                      that the records I'm looking at aren't 100% reliable :(

                                      Peter

                                      On 22 September 2011 04:12, Elaine <epowell@...> wrote:

                                      > **
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Frank,
                                      >
                                      > This is not about illegitimate children, but I have always enjoyed your tag
                                      > line "looking for Plichtas all over the world" (I paraphrase). I was in
                                      > Kostolany nad Horn�dom recently and saw an old record that contained a
                                      > Plichta. Have you found some relatives there?
                                      >
                                      > Elaine
                                      >
                                      > Sent from my iPhone
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On Sep 21, 2011, at 5:06 PM, "Frank R Plichta" <
                                      > frank.r.plichta@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Ladislav,
                                      > >
                                      > > I would look at the marital status of the parents at the time the child
                                      > was
                                      > > born rather than when the child was conceived. If the couple was
                                      > 1)married
                                      > > and then 2) the child was born, it doesn't matter when the father died,
                                      > even
                                      > > if the father died before the child was born.
                                      > >
                                      > > Either the child was legitimate or not. The only criteria that I see is
                                      > > that the couple was married before the birth.
                                      > >
                                      > > Enjoy,
                                      > >
                                      > > Frank
                                      > >
                                      > > _____
                                      > >
                                      > > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
                                      > On
                                      > > Behalf Of lacoros@...
                                      > > Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 10:47 AM
                                      > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Subject: [S-R] Re: illegitimate children
                                      > >
                                      > > When was a child illegitimate? My idea was clear - when a child was born
                                      > > less then 7-8 months after marriage or more then 9-10 months after death
                                      > of
                                      > > the father.
                                      > >
                                      > > My great surprise was finding a legitimate child 2 months before the
                                      > > wedding. After this a legitimate child born two months after wedding was
                                      > not
                                      > > so surprising. Both children born about 1840. Also after seeing entries
                                      > > where after 10-20 years was a child re-legitimized and a father was
                                      > added, i
                                      > > assume that in some time illegitimate child would mean "father unknown"
                                      > or
                                      > > "father didn't give his consent to be written as the father".
                                      > >
                                      > > Whats you opinion about this?
                                      > >
                                      > > Ladislav
                                      > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > From: htcstech <htcstech@... <mailto:htcstech%40gmail.com> >
                                      > > Sender: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:
                                      > SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > >
                                      > > Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:25:47
                                      > > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > >
                                      > > Reply-To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check
                                      > >
                                      > > Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
                                      > > Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
                                      > > 1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
                                      > > For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
                                      > > birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!
                                      > >
                                      > > So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was
                                      > he
                                      > > called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?
                                      > >
                                      > > Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
                                      > > Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
                                      > > she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.
                                      > >
                                      > > What a delicious problem!
                                      > >
                                      > > Well, if it was my family tree, I would:
                                      > >
                                      > > 1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from
                                      > then
                                      > > on.
                                      > > 2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same
                                      > book
                                      > > - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
                                      > > 3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years
                                      > between
                                      > > 1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was
                                      > married
                                      > > AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the
                                      > line
                                      > > *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
                                      > > It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could
                                      > have
                                      > > been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
                                      > > important.
                                      > >
                                      > > Please keep me informed.
                                      > >
                                      > > I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
                                      > > other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the
                                      > same
                                      > > name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from
                                      > 2
                                      > > fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.
                                      > >
                                      > > I reckon you've got it easy!
                                      > >
                                      > > Peter
                                      > >
                                      > > On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...
                                      > > <mailto:horsegirrl%40hotmail.com> > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > > **
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                                      > > > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Peter
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443
                                      > > <
                                      > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&
                                      > > wc=10600137> &wc=10600137
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
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