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Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check

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  • lisan533
    Hi, I think I found the entry for my 2G-Grandparents, but I would like other eyes to take a look:
    Message 1 of 24 , Sep 2, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi,
      I think I found the entry for my 2G-Grandparents, but I would like other eyes to take a look:

      https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11575-164613-79?cc=1554443&wc=10600180

      #19--May 23, 1892
      Hvosztaly, Istvan
      (Pigra)Petro, Anna

      Please tell me what you see for the rest of the entry.
      Thank you for your help!
      Lisa
    • Michael Mojher
      What I saw. Line 1 Hvosztaly, Istvan – Domonkos, Burda – Oz. H. Mezo 57 Line 2 Anna fia kozs Line 3 (Pigza) Anna, Antal – Matisz Maria – repeat sign
      Message 2 of 24 , Sep 2, 2011
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        What I saw.
        Line 1
        Hvosztaly, Istvan – Domonkos, Burda – Oz. H. Mezo 57
        Line 2
        Anna fia kozs
        Line 3
        (Pigza) Anna, Antal – Matisz Maria – repeat sign 164
        Line 4
        Petro under Pigza – leanya kozs

        The original record page has been scratched out and this one created. It will take someone who reads Hungarian that can tell you exactly what it is. By the information written down I would think a marriage record, Hazasultak Anyakonyve is usually the heading for a marriage record.

        Fia translates to his or her son. This seems to be Anna’s son.

        Leanya translates to daughter. Seems to be Maria Matisz’s daughter

        It will require a hunt to find out what the full name of the village is. Oz. H. Mezo.

        Domonkos translates to Dominican. Got none for Burda

        (Pigza)”Petro” Anna, Antal is confusing because there seems to be three possible surnames.

        From: lisan533
        Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 10:29 AM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [S-R] Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check


        Hi,
        I think I found the entry for my 2G-Grandparents, but I would like other eyes to take a look:

        https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11575-164613-79?cc=1554443&wc=10600180

        #19--May 23, 1892
        Hvosztaly, Istvan
        (Pigra)Petro, Anna

        Please tell me what you see for the rest of the entry.
        Thank you for your help!
        Lisa





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Judy Hogel
        Lisa, It has been a while since I looked at the church records in Hungarian, but I ll give it a try for you. I dont have the markings above the letters, but
        Message 3 of 24 , Sep 2, 2011
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          Lisa, It has been a while since I looked at the church records in Hungarian, but I'll give it a try for you. I dont have the markings above the letters, but you can figure that out. 19 is the sequential entry number, not the dateMarriage date is May 23, 1892 Hvosztaly Istvan , son of Domonkos and Anna Burda(Pigza) Petro Anna daughter of Antal and Maria Matisz, not sure of what the kozr means Cz. H. Mezo (Cz. H. Mezoientis) this is the village name abreviated57 and 154 are the house numbers, not sure of what the hsz but maybe abreviation for haz=house notlen=single man, hajadon=single unmarried girl rkath=Roman Catholic the dates ate their respective birthdates, approximately 23 and 24, you can figure them out exactly with the dates sponsors: Krivjanszk, Jozseef, Petrik, Tamas, again kozr? Name of clergy: ugyanaz=same, Hamorszky, Andras bans of marriage: I think the symbol is like a ditto, top entry translates to _______ ________ none impediment (I guess no objection), I'm no sure about the first two words comments: blank The records are so nicely written, you are lucky. Hope this helps some. Judy
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          From: horsegirrl@...
          Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 17:29:37 +0000
          Subject: [S-R] Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check




























          Hi,

          I think I found the entry for my 2G-Grandparents, but I would like other eyes to take a look:



          https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11575-164613-79?cc=1554443&wc=10600180



          #19--May 23, 1892

          Hvosztaly, Istvan

          (Pigra)Petro, Anna



          Please tell me what you see for the rest of the entry.

          Thank you for your help!

          Lisa


















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Judy
          ... 19 is the sequential entry number, not the date Marriage date is May 23, 1892 Hvosztaly Istvan , son of Domonkos and Anna Burda (Pigza)Petro Anna daughter
          Message 4 of 24 , Sep 2, 2011
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            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Judy Hogel <hogelj@...> wrote:
            >
            > Sorry for the jammed text, see if this is better.


            > Lisa, It has been a while since I looked at the church records in Hungarian, but I'll give it a try for you. I dont have the markings above the letters, but you can figure that out.

            19 is the sequential entry number, not the date
            Marriage date is May 23, 1892

            Hvosztaly Istvan , son of Domonkos and Anna Burda
            (Pigza)Petro Anna daughter of Antal and Maria Matisz, not sure of what the kozr means

            Cz. H. Mezo (Cz. H. Mezoientis) this is the village name abreviated

            57 and 154 are the house numbers, not sure of what the hsz but maybe abreviation for haz=house

            notlen=single man, hajadon=single unmarried girl

            rkath=Roman Catholic

            the dates are their respective birthdates, approximately 23 and 24, you can figure them out exactly with the dates

            sponsors: Krivjanszk, Jozseef, Petrik, Tamas, again kozr?

            Name of clergy: ugyanaz=same, Hamorszky, Andras

            bans of marriage: I think the symbol is like a ditto, top entry translates to _______ ________ none impediment (I guess no objection),I'm not sure about the first two words

            comments: blank

            The records are so nicely written, you are lucky.
            Hope this helps some.

            Judy
            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            > From: horsegirrl@...
            > Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 17:29:37 +0000
            > Subject: [S-R] Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check
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            > Hi,
            >
            > I think I found the entry for my 2G-Grandparents, but I would like other eyes to take a look:
            >
            >
            >
            > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11575-164613-79?cc=1554443&wc=10600180
            >
            >
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            > #19--May 23, 1892
            >
            > Hvosztaly, Istvan
            >
            > (Pigra)Petro, Anna
            >
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            >
            > Please tell me what you see for the rest of the entry.
            >
            > Thank you for your help!
            >
            > Lisa
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          • Judy
            This may be the village Cz. H. Mezo: From the Family Search Place Search: Dlhé nad Cirochou, Slovakia, formerly Cziroka-Hosszumezõ, Zemplén, Hungary.
            Message 5 of 24 , Sep 2, 2011
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              This may be the village Cz. H. Mezo:
              From the Family Search Place Search:

              Dlhé nad Cirochou, Slovakia, formerly Cziroka-Hosszumezõ, Zemplén, Hungary.



              --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Judy" <hogelj@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
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              >
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              >
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              >
              > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Judy Hogel <hogelj@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Sorry for the jammed text, see if this is better.
              >
              >
              > > Lisa, It has been a while since I looked at the church records in Hungarian, but I'll give it a try for you. I dont have the markings above the letters, but you can figure that out.
              >
              > 19 is the sequential entry number, not the date
              > Marriage date is May 23, 1892
              >
              > Hvosztaly Istvan , son of Domonkos and Anna Burda
              > (Pigza)Petro Anna daughter of Antal and Maria Matisz, not sure of what the kozr means
              >
              > Cz. H. Mezo (Cz. H. Mezoientis) this is the village name abreviated
              >
              > 57 and 154 are the house numbers, not sure of what the hsz but maybe abreviation for haz=house
              >
              > notlen=single man, hajadon=single unmarried girl
              >
              > rkath=Roman Catholic
              >
              > the dates are their respective birthdates, approximately 23 and 24, you can figure them out exactly with the dates
              >
              > sponsors: Krivjanszk, Jozseef, Petrik, Tamas, again kozr?
              >
              > Name of clergy: ugyanaz=same, Hamorszky, Andras
              >
              > bans of marriage: I think the symbol is like a ditto, top entry translates to _______ ________ none impediment (I guess no objection),I'm not sure about the first two words
              >
              > comments: blank
              >
              > The records are so nicely written, you are lucky.
              > Hope this helps some.
              >
              > Judy
              > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              > > From: horsegirrl@
              > > Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 17:29:37 +0000
              > > Subject: [S-R] Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check
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              > > Hi,
              > >
              > > I think I found the entry for my 2G-Grandparents, but I would like other eyes to take a look:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11575-164613-79?cc=1554443&wc=10600180
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > #19--May 23, 1892
              > >
              > > Hvosztaly, Istvan
              > >
              > > (Pigra)Petro, Anna
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Please tell me what you see for the rest of the entry.
              > >
              > > Thank you for your help!
              > >
              > > Lisa
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            • Frank R Plichta
              I agree. This is my maternal family home. “TOMAS”. Frank _____ From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Judy
              Message 6 of 24 , Sep 2, 2011
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                I agree. This is my maternal family home. “TOMAS”.

                Frank

                _____

                From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of Judy
                Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 4:13 PM
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [S-R] village name







                This may be the village Cz. H. Mezo:
                From the Family Search Place Search:

                Dlhé nad Cirochou, Slovakia, formerly Cziroka-Hosszumezõ, Zemplén, Hungary.

                --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                , "Judy" <hogelj@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> , Judy Hogel <hogelj@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Sorry for the jammed text, see if this is better.
                >
                >
                > > Lisa, It has been a while since I looked at the church records in
                Hungarian, but I'll give it a try for you. I dont have the markings above
                the letters, but you can figure that out.
                >
                > 19 is the sequential entry number, not the date
                > Marriage date is May 23, 1892
                >
                > Hvosztaly Istvan , son of Domonkos and Anna Burda
                > (Pigza)Petro Anna daughter of Antal and Maria Matisz, not sure of what the
                kozr means
                >
                > Cz. H. Mezo (Cz. H. Mezoientis) this is the village name abreviated
                >
                > 57 and 154 are the house numbers, not sure of what the hsz but maybe
                abreviation for haz=house
                >
                > notlen=single man, hajadon=single unmarried girl
                >
                > rkath=Roman Catholic
                >
                > the dates are their respective birthdates, approximately 23 and 24, you
                can figure them out exactly with the dates
                >
                > sponsors: Krivjanszk, Jozseef, Petrik, Tamas, again kozr?
                >
                > Name of clergy: ugyanaz=same, Hamorszky, Andras
                >
                > bans of marriage: I think the symbol is like a ditto, top entry translates
                to _______ ________ none impediment (I guess no objection),I'm not sure
                about the first two words
                >
                > comments: blank
                >
                > The records are so nicely written, you are lucky.
                > Hope this helps some.
                >
                > Judy
                > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>

                > > From: horsegirrl@
                > > Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 17:29:37 +0000
                > > Subject: [S-R] Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check
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                > > Hi,
                > >
                > > I think I found the entry for my 2G-Grandparents, but I would like other
                eyes to take a look:
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11575-164613-79?cc=1554443
                <https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11575-164613-79?cc=1554443
                &wc=10600180> &wc=10600180
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > #19--May 23, 1892
                > >
                > > Hvosztaly, Istvan
                > >
                > > (Pigra)Petro, Anna
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Please tell me what you see for the rest of the entry.
                > >
                > > Thank you for your help!
                > >
                > > Lisa
                > >
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                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                >





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ladislav Rosival
                Just some addition the abbrevitation h.sz. means ház szám = house number bans of mariage: 3-szor kihirdetvék = (banns) 3-times announced I am not able
                Message 7 of 24 , Sep 2, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Just some addition

                  the abbrevitation h.sz. means "ház szám" = house number

                  bans of mariage: "3-szor kihirdetvék" = (banns) 3-times announced

                  I am not able to find out what the "közv" (or közr.) stands for - it is the description of the status of the person, i am quiete sure it means peasant - most of the people have this abrevitations.

                  My last observation - the parents of Istvan and Anna were living at the time of mariage - when not they would be marked as "bold.(ogult)" - like in line 20.

                  Ladislav


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Judy
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 10:04 PM
                  Subject: Re: [S-R] Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check





                  --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Judy Hogel <hogelj@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Sorry for the jammed text, see if this is better.

                  > Lisa, It has been a while since I looked at the church records in Hungarian, but I'll give it a try for you. I dont have the markings above the letters, but you can figure that out.

                  19 is the sequential entry number, not the date
                  Marriage date is May 23, 1892

                  Hvosztaly Istvan , son of Domonkos and Anna Burda
                  (Pigza)Petro Anna daughter of Antal and Maria Matisz, not sure of what the kozr means

                  Cz. H. Mezo (Cz. H. Mezoientis) this is the village name abreviated

                  57 and 154 are the house numbers, not sure of what the hsz but maybe abreviation for haz=house

                  notlen=single man, hajadon=single unmarried girl

                  rkath=Roman Catholic

                  the dates are their respective birthdates, approximately 23 and 24, you can figure them out exactly with the dates

                  sponsors: Krivjanszk, Jozseef, Petrik, Tamas, again kozr?

                  Name of clergy: ugyanaz=same, Hamorszky, Andras

                  bans of marriage: I think the symbol is like a ditto, top entry translates to _______ ________ none impediment (I guess no objection),I'm not sure about the first two words

                  comments: blank

                  The records are so nicely written, you are lucky.
                  Hope this helps some.

                  Judy
                  > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  > From: horsegirrl@...
                  > Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 17:29:37 +0000
                  > Subject: [S-R] Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check
                  >
                  >
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                  > Hi,
                  >
                  > I think I found the entry for my 2G-Grandparents, but I would like other eyes to take a look:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11575-164613-79?cc=1554443&wc=10600180
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > #19--May 23, 1892
                  >
                  > Hvosztaly, Istvan
                  >
                  > (Pigra)Petro, Anna
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Please tell me what you see for the rest of the entry.
                  >
                  > Thank you for your help!
                  >
                  > Lisa
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Judy
                  Re: kozr/kozv If you scan back through the film until the handwriting changes, sometimes you can get a different scribe s way of writing the word. Back on
                  Message 8 of 24 , Sep 2, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Re: kozr/kozv


                    If you scan back through the film until the handwriting changes, sometimes you can get a different scribe's way of writing the word. Back on page 68 of your film, it looks like the word is written as "kozrenduek", again witout the marks above. Even with that though, I cannot tell you the meaning. Page 67 uses the original preprinted headers. In the 5th column I believe the header says something on the order of "regular civil status" and the word "kozrenduek" is listed most of the time under that heading. In 99% of the ones I've seen, the word used means "commoner, farmer, peasant" or something like that. Maybe someone more familiar with the Hungarian vocabulary has a translation for "kozrenduek",

                    Judy



                    --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Ladislav Rosival" <lacoros@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Just some addition
                    >
                    > the abbrevitation h.sz. means "ház szám" = house number
                    >
                    > bans of mariage: "3-szor kihirdetvék" = (banns) 3-times announced
                    >
                    > I am not able to find out what the "közv" (or közr.) stands for - it is the description of the status of the person, i am quiete sure it means peasant - most of the people have this abrevitations.
                    >
                    > My last observation - the parents of Istvan and Anna were living at the time of mariage - when not they would be marked as "bold.(ogult)" - like in line 20.
                    >
                    > Ladislav
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Judy
                    > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 10:04 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [S-R] Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Judy Hogel <hogelj@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Sorry for the jammed text, see if this is better.
                    >
                    > > Lisa, It has been a while since I looked at the church records in Hungarian, but I'll give it a try for you. I dont have the markings above the letters, but you can figure that out.
                    >
                    > 19 is the sequential entry number, not the date
                    > Marriage date is May 23, 1892
                    >
                    > Hvosztaly Istvan , son of Domonkos and Anna Burda
                    > (Pigza)Petro Anna daughter of Antal and Maria Matisz, not sure of what the kozr means
                    >
                    > Cz. H. Mezo (Cz. H. Mezoientis) this is the village name abreviated
                    >
                    > 57 and 154 are the house numbers, not sure of what the hsz but maybe abreviation for haz=house
                    >
                    > notlen=single man, hajadon=single unmarried girl
                    >
                    > rkath=Roman Catholic
                    >
                    > the dates are their respective birthdates, approximately 23 and 24, you can figure them out exactly with the dates
                    >
                    > sponsors: Krivjanszk, Jozseef, Petrik, Tamas, again kozr?
                    >
                    > Name of clergy: ugyanaz=same, Hamorszky, Andras
                    >
                    > bans of marriage: I think the symbol is like a ditto, top entry translates to _______ ________ none impediment (I guess no objection),I'm not sure about the first two words
                    >
                    > comments: blank
                    >
                    > The records are so nicely written, you are lucky.
                    > Hope this helps some.
                    >
                    > Judy
                    > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    > > From: horsegirrl@
                    > > Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 17:29:37 +0000
                    > > Subject: [S-R] Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
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                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hi,
                    > >
                    > > I think I found the entry for my 2G-Grandparents, but I would like other eyes to take a look:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11575-164613-79?cc=1554443&wc=10600180
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > #19--May 23, 1892
                    > >
                    > > Hvosztaly, Istvan
                    > >
                    > > (Pigra)Petro, Anna
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Please tell me what you see for the rest of the entry.
                    > >
                    > > Thank you for your help!
                    > >
                    > > Lisa
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
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                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • lisan533
                    Thank you so much for all of your help and expertise. Any idea how to cite this record?
                    Message 9 of 24 , Sep 4, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Thank you so much for all of your help and expertise. Any idea how to cite this record?
                    • Judy
                      The genealogy software program that I use (Legacy) has an automatic source citation generator in which you answer questions about the source you are using and
                      Message 10 of 24 , Sep 4, 2011
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                        The genealogy software program that I use (Legacy) has an automatic source citation generator in which you answer questions about the source you are using and the program generates the citation for you. I just use what my program generates because that is the easiest way for me to do it. Example of my citation:

                        (Edelény, Borsod, Hungary), Marriage Register for the year 1870, section 257/3, page 23, marriage of Mihaly _____ and Maria _____ (1870), FHL microfilm 623,338. Family History Library, Salt Lake City, Utah.

                        Here are some other possibilities:

                        Elizabeth Shown Mills in her book Evidence Explained, Citing History Sources from Artifacts to Cyberspace, page 365, gives this example of a citation for a FHL microfilm:

                        Tomter Anex, (Romedal Parish, Hedmark Country, Norway), Ministerial records, 1861-1869. FHL Microfilm 124,386, item 4. Family History Library. Salt Lake City, Utah.

                        Pro genealogists on-line doesn't show a FHL microfilm citation for foreign church records that I can see, but they do show this citation for a FHL microfilm:

                        State of Maine, Division of Vital Statistics Index to Vital Records, 1908-1922, Morrowski - Mullen (Salt Lake City: Microfilmed by the Genealogical Society of Utah, 1954), Family History Library Microfilm 010163.

                        Judy





                        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "lisan533" <horsegirrl@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Thank you so much for all of your help and expertise. Any idea how to cite this record?
                        >
                      • htcstech
                        A very interesting entry! It reads: Groom: Hvosztaly Istvan (Notlen meaning Unmarried) Family lives in House or Lot 57 Father of the Groom: Hvosztaly Domonkos
                        Message 11 of 24 , Sep 5, 2011
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                          A very interesting entry!

                          It reads:
                          Groom: Hvosztaly Istvan (Notlen meaning Unmarried) Family lives in House or
                          Lot 57
                          Father of the Groom: Hvosztaly Domonkos
                          Mother of Groom: Burda Anna (Burda being her family name)
                          Bride: (Pigza) Petro Anna (Hajadon meaning 'Maid' meaning virgin meaning
                          unmarried with no illegitimate children beforehand). Family lives in House
                          or Lot 164
                          Father of Bride: Petro (Pigza) Antal
                          Mother of Bride: Matisz Maria

                          "Kozr" should be the employment of the groom (and bride), but I've got no
                          idea what it means. Maybe mining?

                          Now compare the entry just above of the 11th.
                          A Burda Anna was the mother of another child with a different surname.
                          Either Burda Anna remarried, or there were 2 Burda Anna's (Possible if there
                          were a few lines in the family- That would make both Burda Annas' cousins or
                          an aunt).

                          The (Pigza)-Petro surname is also interesting.
                          I would most certainly look from 9 months ahead in the baptism records (if
                          available) and see if they (Groom and Bride) have children. You should be
                          able to check her surname.

                          Find any other Pigza surnames in the past or future for confirmation.

                          Check marriage records for the marriage of Burda Anna.

                          Check the death records of Szolomes Martin and Hvosztaly Domonkos. Trace
                          both families. You may have half brothers/sisters in this line.

                          Peter


                          On 5 September 2011 03:22, Judy <hogelj@...> wrote:

                          > **
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > The genealogy software program that I use (Legacy) has an automatic source
                          > citation generator in which you answer questions about the source you are
                          > using and the program generates the citation for you. I just use what my
                          > program generates because that is the easiest way for me to do it. Example
                          > of my citation:
                          >
                          > (Edel�ny, Borsod, Hungary), Marriage Register for the year 1870, section
                          > 257/3, page 23, marriage of Mihaly _____ and Maria _____ (1870), FHL
                          > microfilm 623,338. Family History Library, Salt Lake City, Utah.
                          >
                          > Here are some other possibilities:
                          >
                          > Elizabeth Shown Mills in her book Evidence Explained, Citing History
                          > Sources from Artifacts to Cyberspace, page 365, gives this example of a
                          > citation for a FHL microfilm:
                          >
                          > Tomter Anex, (Romedal Parish, Hedmark Country, Norway), Ministerial
                          > records, 1861-1869. FHL Microfilm 124,386, item 4. Family History Library.
                          > Salt Lake City, Utah.
                          >
                          > Pro genealogists on-line doesn't show a FHL microfilm citation for foreign
                          > church records that I can see, but they do show this citation for a FHL
                          > microfilm:
                          >
                          > State of Maine, Division of Vital Statistics Index to Vital Records,
                          > 1908-1922, Morrowski - Mullen (Salt Lake City: Microfilmed by the
                          > Genealogical Society of Utah, 1954), Family History Library Microfilm
                          > 010163.
                          >
                          > Judy
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "lisan533" <horsegirrl@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Thank you so much for all of your help and expertise. Any idea how to
                          > cite this record?
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • lisan533
                          The (Pigza)-Petro surname is also interesting. Any idea why there is this variation in surname? She was listed in this way for every listing I could find
                          Message 12 of 24 , Sep 12, 2011
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                            "The (Pigza)-Petro surname is also interesting."

                            Any idea why there is this variation in surname? She was listed in this way for every listing I could find for her. There continued to be Pigza surnames throughout.

                            Lisa
                          • htcstech
                            Hello Lisa, It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried. Peter ...
                            Message 13 of 24 , Sep 12, 2011
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                              Hello Lisa,

                              It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                              father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.

                              Peter

                              On 13 September 2011 08:39, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:

                              > **
                              >
                              >
                              > "The (Pigza)-Petro surname is also interesting."
                              >
                              > Any idea why there is this variation in surname? She was listed in this way
                              > for every listing I could find for her. There continued to be Pigza surnames
                              > throughout.
                              >
                              > Lisa
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • lisan533
                              Thank you! Lisa
                              Message 14 of 24 , Sep 19, 2011
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                                Thank you!

                                Lisa

                                --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello Lisa,
                                >
                                > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                                > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                                >
                                > Peter
                                >
                                > On 13 September 2011 08:39, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > > **
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > "The (Pigza)-Petro surname is also interesting."
                                > >
                                > > Any idea why there is this variation in surname? She was listed in this way
                                > > for every listing I could find for her. There continued to be Pigza surnames
                                > > throughout.
                                > >
                                > > Lisa
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • lisan533
                                ... Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father s baptismal entry: Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                                Message 15 of 24 , Sep 20, 2011
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                                  > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                                  > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                                  >
                                  > Peter
                                  >

                                  Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:

                                  Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.

                                  https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&wc=10600137
                                • htcstech
                                  Where found, every entry I ve seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded. Obviously not in this case, and I can t think of a reason, certainly in 1848, where a
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Sep 20, 2011
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                                    Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
                                    Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
                                    1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
                                    For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
                                    birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!

                                    So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was he
                                    called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?


                                    Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
                                    Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
                                    she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.

                                    What a delicious problem!

                                    Well, if it was my family tree, I would:

                                    1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from then
                                    on.
                                    2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same book
                                    - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
                                    3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years between
                                    1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was married
                                    AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the line
                                    *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
                                    It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could have
                                    been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
                                    important.

                                    Please keep me informed.

                                    I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
                                    other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the same
                                    name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from 2
                                    fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.

                                    I reckon you've got it easy!

                                    Peter

                                    On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:

                                    > **
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                                    > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                                    > >
                                    > > Peter
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
                                    >
                                    > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&wc=10600137
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Michael Mojher
                                    Peter, I don t know if it relevant to this case. In the past there was a discussion where a family line died of because there were no sons. Since the family
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Sep 20, 2011
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                                      Peter,
                                      I don't know if it relevant to this case. In the past there was a
                                      discussion where a family line died of because there were no sons. Since the
                                      family owned land they had a son-in-law take on the family name to continue
                                      it. It seems the Slovaks were creative in the use of surnames

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: htcstech
                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 9:25 AM
                                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check

                                      Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
                                      Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
                                      1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
                                      For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
                                      birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!

                                      So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was he
                                      called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?


                                      Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
                                      Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
                                      she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.

                                      What a delicious problem!

                                      Well, if it was my family tree, I would:

                                      1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from then
                                      on.
                                      2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same book
                                      - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
                                      3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years between
                                      1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was married
                                      AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the line
                                      *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
                                      It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could have
                                      been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
                                      important.

                                      Please keep me informed.

                                      I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
                                      other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the same
                                      name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from 2
                                      fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.

                                      I reckon you've got it easy!

                                      Peter

                                      On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:

                                      > **
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                                      > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                                      > >
                                      > > Peter
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
                                      >
                                      > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&wc=10600137
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                      ------------------------------------

                                      PLEASE STAY ON-TOPIC (GENEALOGY). OFF-TOPIC ITEMS WILL BE BLOCKED.

                                      To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                                    • htcstech
                                      An excellent point! Probably the case or something very similar. I also found one of my ancestors, a widow, looking after at least 3 children whose parents
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Sep 20, 2011
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                                        An excellent point! Probably the case or something very similar. I also
                                        found one of my ancestors, a widow, looking after at least 3 children whose
                                        parents died in the village. The children were very young and died within a
                                        few years, never getting old enough to marry. They were entered in the death
                                        record by their father's last name. However in this case, the priest made it
                                        obvious that they were fostered.

                                        Just for the record, 1848 was the year the revolution started. Pigza could
                                        have died as a result?

                                        Peter

                                        BTW: The longer I do this, the prouder I become of my Slovak heritage and
                                        the Slovak people in general. I can see now why my father was so calm and
                                        hardly ever angry.
                                        Our Rus cousins, as well as the Magyars and Germans, had a terrible time in
                                        Vojvodina, Serbia. The Slovak-Magyar mix in the north was much more peaceful
                                        and civilized than what happened in the south with the Serbian communists.

                                        On 21 September 2011 02:55, Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:

                                        > Peter,
                                        > I don't know if it relevant to this case. In the past there was a
                                        > discussion where a family line died of because there were no sons. Since
                                        > the
                                        > family owned land they had a son-in-law take on the family name to continue
                                        > it. It seems the Slovaks were creative in the use of surnames
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: htcstech
                                        > Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 9:25 AM
                                        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check
                                        >
                                        > Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
                                        > Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
                                        > 1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
                                        > For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
                                        > birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!
                                        >
                                        > So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was
                                        > he
                                        > called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
                                        > Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
                                        > she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.
                                        >
                                        > What a delicious problem!
                                        >
                                        > Well, if it was my family tree, I would:
                                        >
                                        > 1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from
                                        > then
                                        > on.
                                        > 2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same book
                                        > - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
                                        > 3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years between
                                        > 1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was married
                                        > AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the
                                        > line
                                        > *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
                                        > It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could have
                                        > been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
                                        > important.
                                        >
                                        > Please keep me informed.
                                        >
                                        > I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
                                        > other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the same
                                        > name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from 2
                                        > fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.
                                        >
                                        > I reckon you've got it easy!
                                        >
                                        > Peter
                                        >
                                        > On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > **
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                                        > > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Peter
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
                                        > >
                                        > > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&wc=10600137
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > PLEASE STAY ON-TOPIC (GENEALOGY). OFF-TOPIC ITEMS WILL BE BLOCKED.
                                        >
                                        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
                                        >
                                        > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                                        > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                                        > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > PLEASE STAY ON-TOPIC (GENEALOGY). OFF-TOPIC ITEMS WILL BE BLOCKED.
                                        >
                                        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
                                        >
                                        > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                                        > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                                        > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • lisan533
                                        Just to double check, in this particular record is the father s name above or below the mother s? He was known as Antonius Pigza in subsequent records, but
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Sep 21, 2011
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                                          Just to double check, in this particular record is the father's name above or below the mother's? He was known as Antonius Pigza in subsequent records, but his children went by Petro(Pigza), that's why I asked about the position of the father's name, I assumed that Antonius' father was Gregorius Petrov, in which case the change would kind of make sense.
                                          Thanks!
                                          Lisa

                                          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
                                          > Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
                                          > 1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
                                          > For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
                                          > birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!
                                          >
                                          > So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was he
                                          > called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
                                          > Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
                                          > she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.
                                          >
                                          > What a delicious problem!
                                          >
                                          > Well, if it was my family tree, I would:
                                          >
                                          > 1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from then
                                          > on.
                                          > 2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same book
                                          > - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
                                          > 3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years between
                                          > 1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was married
                                          > AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the line
                                          > *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
                                          > It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could have
                                          > been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
                                          > important.
                                          >
                                          > Please keep me informed.
                                          >
                                          > I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
                                          > other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the same
                                          > name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from 2
                                          > fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.
                                          >
                                          > I reckon you've got it easy!
                                          >
                                          > Peter
                                          >
                                          > On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > **
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                                          > > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Peter
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
                                          > >
                                          > > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&wc=10600137
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                        • lacoros@gmail.com
                                          When was a child illegitimate? My idea was clear - when a child was born less then 7-8 months after marriage or more then 9-10 months after death of the
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Sep 21, 2011
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                                            When was a child illegitimate? My idea was clear - when a child was born less then 7-8 months after marriage or more then 9-10 months after death of the father.

                                            My great surprise was finding a legitimate child 2 months before the wedding. After this a legitimate child born two months after wedding was not so surprising. Both children born about 1840. Also after seeing entries where after 10-20 years was a child re-legitimized and a father was added, i assume that in some time illegitimate child would mean "father unknown" or "father didn't give his consent to be written as the father".

                                            Whats you opinion about this?


                                            Ladislav
                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: htcstech <htcstech@...>
                                            Sender: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                            Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:25:47
                                            To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Reply-To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check

                                            Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
                                            Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
                                            1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
                                            For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
                                            birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!

                                            So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was he
                                            called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?


                                            Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
                                            Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
                                            she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.

                                            What a delicious problem!

                                            Well, if it was my family tree, I would:

                                            1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from then
                                            on.
                                            2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same book
                                            - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
                                            3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years between
                                            1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was married
                                            AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the line
                                            *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
                                            It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could have
                                            been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
                                            important.

                                            Please keep me informed.

                                            I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
                                            other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the same
                                            name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from 2
                                            fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.

                                            I reckon you've got it easy!

                                            Peter

                                            On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:

                                            > **
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                                            > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                                            > >
                                            > > Peter
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
                                            >
                                            > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&wc=10600137
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                            ------------------------------------

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                                          • Frank R Plichta
                                            Ladislav, I would look at the marital status of the parents at the time the child was born rather than when the child was conceived. If the couple was
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Sep 21, 2011
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Ladislav,



                                              I would look at the marital status of the parents at the time the child was
                                              born rather than when the child was conceived. If the couple was 1)married
                                              and then 2) the child was born, it doesn't matter when the father died, even
                                              if the father died before the child was born.



                                              Either the child was legitimate or not. The only criteria that I see is
                                              that the couple was married before the birth.



                                              Enjoy,

                                              Frank



                                              _____

                                              From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                                              Behalf Of lacoros@...
                                              Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 10:47 AM
                                              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [S-R] Re: illegitimate children






                                              When was a child illegitimate? My idea was clear - when a child was born
                                              less then 7-8 months after marriage or more then 9-10 months after death of
                                              the father.

                                              My great surprise was finding a legitimate child 2 months before the
                                              wedding. After this a legitimate child born two months after wedding was not
                                              so surprising. Both children born about 1840. Also after seeing entries
                                              where after 10-20 years was a child re-legitimized and a father was added, i
                                              assume that in some time illegitimate child would mean "father unknown" or
                                              "father didn't give his consent to be written as the father".

                                              Whats you opinion about this?


                                              Ladislav
                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: htcstech <htcstech@... <mailto:htcstech%40gmail.com> >
                                              Sender: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>

                                              Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:25:47
                                              To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> >
                                              Reply-To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                              <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                              Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check

                                              Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
                                              Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
                                              1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
                                              For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
                                              birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!

                                              So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was he
                                              called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?


                                              Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
                                              Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
                                              she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.

                                              What a delicious problem!

                                              Well, if it was my family tree, I would:

                                              1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from then
                                              on.
                                              2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same book
                                              - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
                                              3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years between
                                              1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was married
                                              AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the line
                                              *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
                                              It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could have
                                              been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
                                              important.

                                              Please keep me informed.

                                              I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
                                              other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the same
                                              name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from 2
                                              fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.

                                              I reckon you've got it easy!

                                              Peter

                                              On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...
                                              <mailto:horsegirrl%40hotmail.com> > wrote:

                                              > **
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                                              > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                                              > >
                                              > > Peter
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
                                              >
                                              > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443
                                              <https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&
                                              wc=10600137> &wc=10600137
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                              ------------------------------------

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                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Elaine
                                              Frank, This is not about illegitimate children, but I have always enjoyed your tag line looking for Plichtas all over the world (I paraphrase). I was in
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Sep 21, 2011
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Frank,

                                                This is not about illegitimate children, but I have always enjoyed your tag line "looking for Plichtas all over the world" (I paraphrase). I was in Kostolany nad Hornádom recently and saw an old record that contained a Plichta. Have you found some relatives there?

                                                Elaine

                                                Sent from my iPhone

                                                On Sep 21, 2011, at 5:06 PM, "Frank R Plichta" <frank.r.plichta@...> wrote:

                                                > Ladislav,
                                                >
                                                > I would look at the marital status of the parents at the time the child was
                                                > born rather than when the child was conceived. If the couple was 1)married
                                                > and then 2) the child was born, it doesn't matter when the father died, even
                                                > if the father died before the child was born.
                                                >
                                                > Either the child was legitimate or not. The only criteria that I see is
                                                > that the couple was married before the birth.
                                                >
                                                > Enjoy,
                                                >
                                                > Frank
                                                >
                                                > _____
                                                >
                                                > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                > Behalf Of lacoros@...
                                                > Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 10:47 AM
                                                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Subject: [S-R] Re: illegitimate children
                                                >
                                                > When was a child illegitimate? My idea was clear - when a child was born
                                                > less then 7-8 months after marriage or more then 9-10 months after death of
                                                > the father.
                                                >
                                                > My great surprise was finding a legitimate child 2 months before the
                                                > wedding. After this a legitimate child born two months after wedding was not
                                                > so surprising. Both children born about 1840. Also after seeing entries
                                                > where after 10-20 years was a child re-legitimized and a father was added, i
                                                > assume that in some time illegitimate child would mean "father unknown" or
                                                > "father didn't give his consent to be written as the father".
                                                >
                                                > Whats you opinion about this?
                                                >
                                                > Ladislav
                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                > From: htcstech <htcstech@... <mailto:htcstech%40gmail.com> >
                                                > Sender: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                >
                                                > Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:25:47
                                                > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> >
                                                > Reply-To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                                > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check
                                                >
                                                > Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
                                                > Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
                                                > 1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
                                                > For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
                                                > birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!
                                                >
                                                > So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was he
                                                > called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?
                                                >
                                                > Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
                                                > Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
                                                > she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.
                                                >
                                                > What a delicious problem!
                                                >
                                                > Well, if it was my family tree, I would:
                                                >
                                                > 1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from then
                                                > on.
                                                > 2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same book
                                                > - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
                                                > 3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years between
                                                > 1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was married
                                                > AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the line
                                                > *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
                                                > It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could have
                                                > been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
                                                > important.
                                                >
                                                > Please keep me informed.
                                                >
                                                > I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
                                                > other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the same
                                                > name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from 2
                                                > fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.
                                                >
                                                > I reckon you've got it easy!
                                                >
                                                > Peter
                                                >
                                                > On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...
                                                > <mailto:horsegirrl%40hotmail.com> > wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > **
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                                                > > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Peter
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
                                                > >
                                                > > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443
                                                > <https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&
                                                > wc=10600137> &wc=10600137
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                                > ------------------------------------
                                                >
                                                > PLEASE STAY ON-TOPIC (GENEALOGY). OFF-TOPIC ITEMS WILL BE BLOCKED.
                                                >
                                                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
                                                >
                                                > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                                                > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                                                > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo
                                                > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo> ! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                                >


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • htcstech
                                                Lisa! You are right! It is Petrov and not Badnar. I m used to record entries where the name of the child is on the same line as the name of the father, with
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Sep 21, 2011
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Lisa!
                                                  You are right! It is Petrov and not Badnar.
                                                  I'm used to record entries where the name of the child is on the same line
                                                  as the name of the father, with the mother below. Just so happens that in
                                                  this case, the child was on the same line as the mother, with the father
                                                  above. I should have picked it up though.
                                                  Nice catch!

                                                  Peter

                                                  On 21 September 2011 23:47, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:

                                                  > **
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Just to double check, in this particular record is the father's name above
                                                  > or below the mother's? He was known as Antonius Pigza in subsequent records,
                                                  > but his children went by Petro(Pigza), that's why I asked about the position
                                                  > of the father's name, I assumed that Antonius' father was Gregorius Petrov,
                                                  > in which case the change would kind of make sense.
                                                  > Thanks!
                                                  >
                                                  > Lisa
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
                                                  > > Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
                                                  > > 1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
                                                  > > For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
                                                  > > birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!
                                                  > >
                                                  > > So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was
                                                  > he
                                                  > > called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
                                                  > > Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
                                                  > > she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > What a delicious problem!
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Well, if it was my family tree, I would:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > 1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from
                                                  > then
                                                  > > on.
                                                  > > 2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same
                                                  > book
                                                  > > - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
                                                  > > 3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years
                                                  > between
                                                  > > 1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was
                                                  > married
                                                  > > AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the
                                                  > line
                                                  > > *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
                                                  > > It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could
                                                  > have
                                                  > > been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
                                                  > > important.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Please keep me informed.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
                                                  > > other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the
                                                  > same
                                                  > > name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from
                                                  > 2
                                                  > > fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I reckon you've got it easy!
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Peter
                                                  > >
                                                  > > On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > **
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                                                  > > > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Peter
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&wc=10600137
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • htcstech
                                                  Re: Illegitimate child out of wedlock. I have an example in my line where a marriage has taken place and the father died a month before the birth of his
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Sep 21, 2011
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Re: Illegitimate child out of wedlock.

                                                    I have an example in my line where a marriage has taken place and the father
                                                    died a month before the birth of his daughter. The priest marked her as
                                                    illegitimate. She became legitimised when the mother remarried.

                                                    I have picked up an error - a duplicate entry a few days apart, so I presume
                                                    that the records I'm looking at aren't 100% reliable :(

                                                    Peter

                                                    On 22 September 2011 04:12, Elaine <epowell@...> wrote:

                                                    > **
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Frank,
                                                    >
                                                    > This is not about illegitimate children, but I have always enjoyed your tag
                                                    > line "looking for Plichtas all over the world" (I paraphrase). I was in
                                                    > Kostolany nad Horn�dom recently and saw an old record that contained a
                                                    > Plichta. Have you found some relatives there?
                                                    >
                                                    > Elaine
                                                    >
                                                    > Sent from my iPhone
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > On Sep 21, 2011, at 5:06 PM, "Frank R Plichta" <
                                                    > frank.r.plichta@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > Ladislav,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I would look at the marital status of the parents at the time the child
                                                    > was
                                                    > > born rather than when the child was conceived. If the couple was
                                                    > 1)married
                                                    > > and then 2) the child was born, it doesn't matter when the father died,
                                                    > even
                                                    > > if the father died before the child was born.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Either the child was legitimate or not. The only criteria that I see is
                                                    > > that the couple was married before the birth.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Enjoy,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Frank
                                                    > >
                                                    > > _____
                                                    > >
                                                    > > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
                                                    > On
                                                    > > Behalf Of lacoros@...
                                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 10:47 AM
                                                    > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > > Subject: [S-R] Re: illegitimate children
                                                    > >
                                                    > > When was a child illegitimate? My idea was clear - when a child was born
                                                    > > less then 7-8 months after marriage or more then 9-10 months after death
                                                    > of
                                                    > > the father.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > My great surprise was finding a legitimate child 2 months before the
                                                    > > wedding. After this a legitimate child born two months after wedding was
                                                    > not
                                                    > > so surprising. Both children born about 1840. Also after seeing entries
                                                    > > where after 10-20 years was a child re-legitimized and a father was
                                                    > added, i
                                                    > > assume that in some time illegitimate child would mean "father unknown"
                                                    > or
                                                    > > "father didn't give his consent to be written as the father".
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Whats you opinion about this?
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Ladislav
                                                    > > -----Original Message-----
                                                    > > From: htcstech <htcstech@... <mailto:htcstech%40gmail.com> >
                                                    > > Sender: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:
                                                    > SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:25:47
                                                    > > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Reply-To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Hvosztaly-Petro Family Search Double Check
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Where found, every entry I've seen, illegitimate is clearly recorded.
                                                    > > Obviously not in this case, and I can't think of a reason, certainly in
                                                    > > 1848, where a priest would not indicate it if it was so.
                                                    > > For example, illegitimate is even recorded if the father died before the
                                                    > > birth! The widow giving birth to an 'illegitimate' child out of wedlock!
                                                    > >
                                                    > > So Antonius carried his mother's name as well as his father's Badnar? Was
                                                    > he
                                                    > > called Antonius Badnar (Pigza) or Antonius Pigza?
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Even if Gregorius Badnar died soon after, Antonius should still be called
                                                    > > Badnar. However it is conceivable that Pigza was an important family, and
                                                    > > she was the last of them and so Antonius carried on with the name.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > What a delicious problem!
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Well, if it was my family tree, I would:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > 1. Find if Antonius had a brother/sister - Skip 10 months and look from
                                                    > then
                                                    > > on.
                                                    > > 2. Trace the mother PIGZA to her birth if her parents were in the same
                                                    > book
                                                    > > - maybe look to see if PIGZA was a noble name.
                                                    > > 3. Check for Gregorius Badnar's death record - look from the years
                                                    > between
                                                    > > 1848 and Antonius's marriage. If Gregorius died before Antonius was
                                                    > married
                                                    > > AND Theresia did not remarry, OR* there were no male Pigza to carry the
                                                    > line
                                                    > > *, then you can assume that Antonius carried the Pigza name!
                                                    > > It could be the beginnings of a double barrelled surname. Pigza could
                                                    > have
                                                    > > been a local hero or some other notable person. Whoever Pigza was, he was
                                                    > > important.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Please keep me informed.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I've gone batty working out a weird doppelganger, one who had twins, the
                                                    > > other seemingly had 2 wives both naming their respective children the
                                                    > same
                                                    > > name within a week of each other. That means 4 children from 3 wives from
                                                    > 2
                                                    > > fathers both named Martinus, all born within 7 days.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I reckon you've got it easy!
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Peter
                                                    > >
                                                    > > On 21 September 2011 01:30, lisan533 <horsegirrl@...
                                                    > > <mailto:horsegirrl%40hotmail.com> > wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > **
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > > It could be either an Alias or more likely her maiden name by another
                                                    > > > > father. I.E. a step-father who died and the mother remarried.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Peter
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Illegitmate perhaps? This is her father's baptismal entry:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Antonius,left side of page, 19 June.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443
                                                    > > <
                                                    > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11666-72108-92?cc=1554443&
                                                    > > wc=10600137> &wc=10600137
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    > >
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