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Pronunciation of a surname

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  • Elaine Summerhill
    Hello all... I m looking through the records of Stupava, Malacky, Slovakia and I have come across a surname, Magyar.  I am wondering, how would that name be
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 5, 2011
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      Hello all...

      I'm looking through the records of Stupava, Malacky, Slovakia and I have come across a surname, Magyar.  I am wondering, how would that name be enunciated?  Would it be MAG'-yar?  MAI'-yar?  MY' ar?

      I'm curious because I do not know the spelling of my grandfather's original surname, which is pronounced either MY' yar or MAL' ar.  We went by Miller for so long and none of his offspring are either alive or available.

      Thanks.

      Elaine Summerhill
      Edgewood, NM

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Janet Kozlay
      Magyar is the Hungarian word for Hungarian, referring both to its people and its language. The gy is a Hungarian letter which is pronounced like [dj], the
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 5, 2011
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        Magyar is the Hungarian word for Hungarian, referring both to its people and
        its language. The "gy" is a Hungarian letter which is pronounced like [dj],
        the sound you hear in the French word adieu. Most English-speaking people
        tend to pronounce it MAG-yar, which of course is not quite correct.



        Janet



        From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Elaine Summerhill
        Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 8:54 AM
        To: slovak roots
        Subject: [S-R] Pronunciation of a surname





        Hello all...

        I'm looking through the records of Stupava, Malacky, Slovakia and I have
        come across a surname, Magyar. I am wondering, how would that name be
        enunciated? Would it be MAG'-yar? MAI'-yar? MY' ar?

        I'm curious because I do not know the spelling of my grandfather's original
        surname, which is pronounced either MY' yar or MAL' ar. We went by Miller
        for so long and none of his offspring are either alive or available.

        Thanks.

        Elaine Summerhill
        Edgewood, NM

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • nhasior@aol.com
        Janet, So there is actually no G sound at all in the word Magyar. Ma diu ar? Would that be close? Reen [Non-text portions of this message have been
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 5, 2011
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          Janet,
          So there is actually no "G" sound at all in the word Magyar. Ma diu ar?
          Would that be close?
          Reen

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Janet Kozlay
          Yes, the G is not pronounced as such. But it has only two syllables-mahd-jar comes closest. Janet From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 5, 2011
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            Yes, the G is not pronounced as such. But it has only two syllables-mahd-jar
            comes closest.



            Janet



            From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of nhasior@...
            Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:21 AM
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [S-R] Pronunciation of a surname





            Janet,
            So there is actually no "G" sound at all in the word Magyar. Ma diu ar?
            Would that be close?
            Reen

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ladislav Rosival
            One help from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hu-magyar_nyelv.ogg it is the pronounciation for 2 words magyar neylv = hungarian language. In
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 5, 2011
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              One help from wikipedia:

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hu-magyar_nyelv.ogg

              it is the pronounciation for 2 words "magyar neylv" = hungarian language.

              In hungarian is also "a" pronounced a little bit differently from slavic languages, or german.

              Ladislav

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Elaine Summerhill
              To: slovak roots
              Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 2:54 PM
              Subject: [S-R] Pronunciation of a surname



              Hello all...

              I'm looking through the records of Stupava, Malacky, Slovakia and I have come across a surname, Magyar. I am wondering, how would that name be enunciated? Would it be MAG'-yar? MAI'-yar? MY' ar?

              I'm curious because I do not know the spelling of my grandfather's original surname, which is pronounced either MY' yar or MAL' ar. We went by Miller for so long and none of his offspring are either alive or available.

              Thanks.

              Elaine Summerhill
              Edgewood, NM

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Elaine Summerhill
              It sure looks like a surname to me but it also looks like I misspelled it. The name should have been written, MAGYER.
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 5, 2011
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                It sure looks like a surname to me but it also looks like I misspelled it. The name should have been written, MAGYER.

                https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/show#uri=https%3A//api.familysearch.org/records/pal%3A/MM9.3.1/TH-1-14323-22376-41%3Fcc%3D1554443%26wc%3D10599568%c2%a0 (page 500, 31 Oct entry, just above November heading).


                Elaine







                >________________________________
                >
                >
                >Magyar is the Hungarian word for Hungarian, referring both to its people and
                >its language. The "gy" is a Hungarian letter which is pronounced like [dj],
                >the sound you hear in the French word adieu. Most English-speaking people
                >tend to pronounce it MAG-yar, which of course is not quite correct.
                >
                >
                >
                >Janet
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • CurtB
                Elaine, Quite a different story. This one may be a bit more difficult. Remember that the writer is writing in the Hungarian alphabet and trying to express how
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 5, 2011
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                  Elaine,
                  Quite a different story. This one may be a bit more difficult. Remember that the writer is writing in the Hungarian alphabet and trying to express how the locals pronounce their name. So the name is probably just like Mayer in "Oscar Mayer". Spelled Majer in Slovak, but Mayer in German. Though, in strict Hungarian of the time it would be more like Mazher. With a very light touch in the zh part.

                  Strange they didn't end up Mayer or Meyer in the U.S.,instead of Miller.

                  Curt B.

                  --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Elaine Summerhill <jato791@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > It sure looks like a surname to me but it also looks like I misspelled it. The name should have been written, MAGYER.
                  >
                  > https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/show#uri=https%3A//api.familysearch.org/records/pal%3A/MM9.3.1/TH-1-14323-22376-41%3Fcc%3D1554443%26wc%3D10599568%c3%af%c2%bf%c2%bd (page 500, 31 Oct entry, just above November heading).
                  >
                  >
                  > Elaine
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > >________________________________
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >Magyar is the Hungarian word for Hungarian, referring both to its people and
                  > >its language. The "gy" is a Hungarian letter which is pronounced like [dj],
                  > >the sound you hear in the French word adieu. Most English-speaking people
                  > >tend to pronounce it MAG-yar, which of course is not quite correct.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >Janet
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Ladislav Rosival
                  The slovak transcription of this name would be Mader - in 1995 there were 166 persons in Slovakia with this surname. Mostly in Stupava (50), Bratislava, ...
                  Message 8 of 12 , Aug 5, 2011
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                    The slovak transcription of this name would be Mader - in 1995 there were 166 persons in Slovakia with this surname. Mostly in Stupava (50), Bratislava, ...

                    http://slovniky.korpus.sk/?w=MAder&s=exact&c=ef97&lang=en&d=priezviska&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

                    The way to a Mayer or Majer is quite far - in spoken form - and they sound to german.


                    Ladislav


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: CurtB
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 9:33 PM
                    Subject: Re: [S-R] Pronunciation of a surname



                    Elaine,
                    Quite a different story. This one may be a bit more difficult. Remember that the writer is writing in the Hungarian alphabet and trying to express how the locals pronounce their name. So the name is probably just like Mayer in "Oscar Mayer". Spelled Majer in Slovak, but Mayer in German. Though, in strict Hungarian of the time it would be more like Mazher. With a very light touch in the zh part.

                    Strange they didn't end up Mayer or Meyer in the U.S.,instead of Miller.

                    Curt B.

                    --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Elaine Summerhill <jato791@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > It sure looks like a surname to me but it also looks like I misspelled it. The name should have been written, MAGYER.
                    >
                    > https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/show#uri=https%3A//api.familysearch.org/records/pal%3A/MM9.3.1/TH-1-14323-22376-41%3Fcc%3D1554443%26wc%3D10599568%c3%af%c2%bf%c2%bd (page 500, 31 Oct entry, just above November heading).
                    >
                    >
                    > Elaine
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > >________________________________
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >Magyar is the Hungarian word for Hungarian, referring both to its people and
                    > >its language. The "gy" is a Hungarian letter which is pronounced like [dj],
                    > >the sound you hear in the French word adieu. Most English-speaking people
                    > >tend to pronounce it MAG-yar, which of course is not quite correct.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >Janet
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Elaine Summerhill
                    On my father s baptisimal certificate, it says Malyar.  However, I cannot find any record of my grandfather, his father, at all.  I know that he came from
                    Message 9 of 12 , Aug 5, 2011
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                      On my father's baptisimal certificate, it says Malyar.  However, I cannot find any record of my grandfather, his father, at all.  I know that he came from Nagy Csongova (Borzhav'ske) and married my grandmother, who is Rusyn and lived just down the road in Veliki Komyatu. Grandmom told me that we're Rusyn and her church missile is written in Rusyn (at least, that's what it says on the cover).

                      I'm not really looking for my paternal grandparents in Stupava. I just saw the name and was curious.  In Stupava, I'm researching the surname Slezak as Andreas Slezak is my 3rd great grandfather.

                      BTW, I stumbled across a site called "My Heritage".  It is another site for building family trees.  In poking around on it, I found some cousins and family information for my grandfather Struhar's brothers, cousins, etc.  I've been sorta corresponding with a cousin, who speaks only Slovak.  I speak very, very little Slovak but found a pretty good (I hope) online translator. She seems to understand what I'm trying to say.  Either than or she is just too polite to say otherwise.  I told her of my dream to travel to Zohor and she told me that I would be welcomed.  That trip is too far off in the distance, but it really made me feel warm & fuzzy inside.  :-)

                      If you haven't heard of My Heritage, you may want to check it out.  You never know.

                      Elaine in NM



                      >________________________________
                      >From: Ladislav Rosival <lacoros@...>
                      >To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      >Sent: Friday, August 5, 2011 2:29 PM
                      >Subject: Re: [S-R] Pronunciation of a surname
                      >
                      >The slovak transcription of this name would be Mader - in 1995 there were 166 persons in Slovakia with this surname. Mostly in Stupava (50), Bratislava, ...
                      >
                      >http://slovniky.korpus.sk/?w=MAder&s=exact&c=ef97&lang=en&d=priezviska&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
                      >
                      >The way to a Mayer or Majer is quite far - in spoken form - and they sound to german.
                      >
                      >
                      >Ladislav
                      >
                      >
                      >  ----- Original Message -----
                      >  From: CurtB
                      >  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      >  Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 9:33 PM
                      >  Subject: Re: [S-R] Pronunciation of a surname
                      >
                      >
                      >   
                      >  Elaine,
                      >  Quite a different story. This one may be a bit more difficult. Remember that the writer is writing in the Hungarian alphabet and trying to express how the locals pronounce their name. So the name is probably just like Mayer in "Oscar Mayer". Spelled Majer in Slovak, but Mayer in German. Though, in strict Hungarian of the time it would be more like Mazher. With a very light touch in the zh part.
                      >
                      >  Strange they didn't end up Mayer or Meyer in the U.S.,instead of Miller.
                      >
                      >  Curt B.
                      >
                      >  --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Elaine Summerhill <jato791@...> wrote:
                      >  >
                      >  > It sure looks like a surname to me but it also looks like I misspelled it. The name should have been written, MAGYER.
                      >  >
                      >  > https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/show#uri=https%3A//api.familysearch.org/records/pal%3A/MM9.3.1/TH-1-14323-22376-41%3Fcc%3D1554443%26wc%3D10599568%c3%af%c2%bf%c2%bd (page 500, 31 Oct entry, just above November heading).
                      >  >
                      >  >
                      >  > Elaine
                      >  >
                      >  >
                      >  >
                      >  >
                      >  >
                      >  >
                      >  >
                      >  > >________________________________
                      >  > >
                      >  > >
                      >  > >Magyar is the Hungarian word for Hungarian, referring both to its people and
                      >  > >its language. The "gy" is a Hungarian letter which is pronounced like [dj],
                      >  > >the sound you hear in the French word adieu. Most English-speaking people
                      >  > >tend to pronounce it MAG-yar, which of course is not quite correct.
                      >  > >
                      >  > >
                      >  > >
                      >  > >Janet
                      >  > >
                      >  > >
                      >  > >
                      >  >
                      >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >  >
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      >
                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >------------------------------------
                      >
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                      >
                      >To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • CurtB
                      Ladislav, Yes, Majer is German in origin as many Germans settled in Slovakia throughout history, but a common name in Slovakia. See all the Majer and Majerova
                      Message 10 of 12 , Aug 5, 2011
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                        Ladislav,
                        Yes, Majer is German in origin as many Germans settled in Slovakia throughout history, but a common name in Slovakia. See all the Majer and Majerova in the census and phone records.

                        I know of two specific family occurences of the transition from Hungarian spelling of Magyer to current Majer in Slovakia.

                        Curt B.

                        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Ladislav Rosival" <lacoros@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > The slovak transcription of this name would be Mader - in 1995 there were 166 persons in Slovakia with this surname. Mostly in Stupava (50), Bratislava, ...
                        >
                        > http://slovniky.korpus.sk/?w=MAder&s=exact&c=ef97&lang=en&d=priezviska&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
                        >
                        > The way to a Mayer or Majer is quite far - in spoken form - and they sound to german.
                        >
                        >
                        > Ladislav
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: CurtB
                        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 9:33 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [S-R] Pronunciation of a surname
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Elaine,
                        > Quite a different story. This one may be a bit more difficult. Remember that the writer is writing in the Hungarian alphabet and trying to express how the locals pronounce their name. So the name is probably just like Mayer in "Oscar Mayer". Spelled Majer in Slovak, but Mayer in German. Though, in strict Hungarian of the time it would be more like Mazher. With a very light touch in the zh part.
                        >
                        > Strange they didn't end up Mayer or Meyer in the U.S.,instead of Miller.
                        >
                        > Curt B.
                        >
                        > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Elaine Summerhill <jato791@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > It sure looks like a surname to me but it also looks like I misspelled it. The name should have been written, MAGYER.
                        > >
                        > > https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/show#uri=https%3A//api.familysearch.org/records/pal%3A/MM9.3.1/TH-1-14323-22376-41%3Fcc%3D1554443%26wc%3D10599568%c3%af%c2%bf%c2%bd (page 500, 31 Oct entry, just above November heading).
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Elaine
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > >________________________________
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >Magyar is the Hungarian word for Hungarian, referring both to its people and
                        > > >its language. The "gy" is a Hungarian letter which is pronounced like [dj],
                        > > >the sound you hear in the French word adieu. Most English-speaking people
                        > > >tend to pronounce it MAG-yar, which of course is not quite correct.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >Janet
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • William
                        When I visited Jablonov in Spis to find where my GF was born I was taken to what remains of a Majer which is a group of one-story homes, all connected.
                        Message 11 of 12 , Aug 7, 2011
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                          When I visited Jablonov in Spis to find where my GF was born I was taken to what remains of a "Majer" which is a group of one-story homes, all connected. There were only a few left of where my GF was born. Most of them were torn down in the 1970's/80's because they were uninhabitable. I was given some photos taken in the early 80's on which someone had written "Majer" and that is how the local people referred to them.
                          Just another bit of trivia.
                          Bill

                          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" <curt67boc@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Ladislav,
                          > Yes, Majer is German in origin as many Germans settled in Slovakia throughout history, but a common name in Slovakia. See all the Majer and Majerova in the census and phone records.
                          >
                          > I know of two specific family occurences of the transition from Hungarian spelling of Magyer to current Majer in Slovakia.
                          >
                          > Curt B.
                          >
                          > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Ladislav Rosival" <lacoros@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > The slovak transcription of this name would be Mader - in 1995 there were 166 persons in Slovakia with this surname. Mostly in Stupava (50), Bratislava, ...
                          > >
                          > > http://slovniky.korpus.sk/?w=MAder&s=exact&c=ef97&lang=en&d=priezviska&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
                          > >
                          > > The way to a Mayer or Majer is quite far - in spoken form - and they sound to german.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Ladislav
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: CurtB
                          > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 9:33 PM
                          > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Pronunciation of a surname
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Elaine,
                          > > Quite a different story. This one may be a bit more difficult. Remember that the writer is writing in the Hungarian alphabet and trying to express how the locals pronounce their name. So the name is probably just like Mayer in "Oscar Mayer". Spelled Majer in Slovak, but Mayer in German. Though, in strict Hungarian of the time it would be more like Mazher. With a very light touch in the zh part.
                          > >
                          > > Strange they didn't end up Mayer or Meyer in the U.S.,instead of Miller.
                          > >
                          > > Curt B.
                          > >
                          > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Elaine Summerhill <jato791@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > It sure looks like a surname to me but it also looks like I misspelled it. The name should have been written, MAGYER.
                          > > >
                          > > > https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/show#uri=https%3A//api.familysearch.org/records/pal%3A/MM9.3.1/TH-1-14323-22376-41%3Fcc%3D1554443%26wc%3D10599568%c3%af%c2%bf%c2%bd (page 500, 31 Oct entry, just above November heading).
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Elaine
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > >________________________________
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >Magyar is the Hungarian word for Hungarian, referring both to its people and
                          > > > >its language. The "gy" is a Hungarian letter which is pronounced like [dj],
                          > > > >the sound you hear in the French word adieu. Most English-speaking people
                          > > > >tend to pronounce it MAG-yar, which of course is not quite correct.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >Janet
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          >
                        • William
                          When I visited Jablonov in Spis to find where my GF was born I was taken to what remains of a Majer which is a group of one-story homes, all connected.
                          Message 12 of 12 , Aug 7, 2011
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                            When I visited Jablonov in Spis to find where my GF was born I was taken to what remains of a "Majer" which is a group of one-story homes, all connected. There were only a few left of where my GF was born. Most of them were torn down in the 1970's/80's because they were uninhabitable. I was given some photos taken in the early 80's on which someone had written "Majer" and that is how the local people referred to them.
                            Just another bit of trivia.
                            Bill

                            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" <curt67boc@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Ladislav,
                            > Yes, Majer is German in origin as many Germans settled in Slovakia throughout history, but a common name in Slovakia. See all the Majer and Majerova in the census and phone records.
                            >
                            > I know of two specific family occurences of the transition from Hungarian spelling of Magyer to current Majer in Slovakia.
                            >
                            > Curt B.
                            >
                            > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Ladislav Rosival" <lacoros@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > The slovak transcription of this name would be Mader - in 1995 there were 166 persons in Slovakia with this surname. Mostly in Stupava (50), Bratislava, ...
                            > >
                            > > http://slovniky.korpus.sk/?w=MAder&s=exact&c=ef97&lang=en&d=priezviska&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
                            > >
                            > > The way to a Mayer or Majer is quite far - in spoken form - and they sound to german.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Ladislav
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: CurtB
                            > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 9:33 PM
                            > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Pronunciation of a surname
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Elaine,
                            > > Quite a different story. This one may be a bit more difficult. Remember that the writer is writing in the Hungarian alphabet and trying to express how the locals pronounce their name. So the name is probably just like Mayer in "Oscar Mayer". Spelled Majer in Slovak, but Mayer in German. Though, in strict Hungarian of the time it would be more like Mazher. With a very light touch in the zh part.
                            > >
                            > > Strange they didn't end up Mayer or Meyer in the U.S.,instead of Miller.
                            > >
                            > > Curt B.
                            > >
                            > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Elaine Summerhill <jato791@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > It sure looks like a surname to me but it also looks like I misspelled it. The name should have been written, MAGYER.
                            > > >
                            > > > https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/show#uri=https%3A//api.familysearch.org/records/pal%3A/MM9.3.1/TH-1-14323-22376-41%3Fcc%3D1554443%26wc%3D10599568%c3%af%c2%bf%c2%bd (page 500, 31 Oct entry, just above November heading).
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                            > > > Elaine
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                            > > > >________________________________
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                            > > > >
                            > > > >Magyar is the Hungarian word for Hungarian, referring both to its people and
                            > > > >its language. The "gy" is a Hungarian letter which is pronounced like [dj],
                            > > > >the sound you hear in the French word adieu. Most English-speaking people
                            > > > >tend to pronounce it MAG-yar, which of course is not quite correct.
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                            > > > >Janet
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                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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