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question about old alphabet

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  • stevemartonak
    I m looking through the online records for Lipany/Hethars and one of the surnames that appears is Lesko/Lessko, except in the 1857 confirmations where I see
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 26 6:21 AM
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      I'm looking through the online records for Lipany/Hethars and one of the surnames that appears is Lesko/Lessko, except in the 1857 confirmations where I see several instances of "Lepko". The "p" in no way resembles the loopy double 's' of old English/American but rather looks exactly like the "p" in "Stephanus" and "Josephus". Am I never the less probably looking at a double 's'?
    • CurtB
      Steve, Just give us the citation so we can look at the item ourselves. Can t answer your question without looking at it. Curt B.
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 26 11:20 AM
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        Steve,
        Just give us the citation so we can look at the item ourselves. Can't answer your question without looking at it.

        Curt B.

        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "stevemartonak" <stevemartonak@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'm looking through the online records for Lipany/Hethars and one of the surnames that appears is Lesko/Lessko, except in the 1857 confirmations where I see several instances of "Lepko". The "p" in no way resembles the loopy double 's' of old English/American but rather looks exactly like the "p" in "Stephanus" and "Josephus". Am I never the less probably looking at a double 's'?
        >
      • stevemartonak
        The name in question is found several times on images 77, 78, and 79 of the Lipany (Hethars) record Inv. #. 563, 1842-1888 but the real question is not about
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 26 2:01 PM
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          The name in question is found several times on images 77, 78, and 79
          of the Lipany (Hethars) record Inv. #. 563, 1842-1888 but the real question is not about this specific name but simply was a ligature for double ess in use at that time and place?

          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" <curt67boc@...> wrote:
          >
          > Steve,
          > Just give us the citation so we can look at the item ourselves. Can't answer your question without looking at it.
          >
          > Curt B.
          >
          > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "stevemartonak" <stevemartonak@> wrote:
          > >
          > > I'm looking through the online records for Lipany/Hethars and one of the surnames that appears is Lesko/Lessko, except in the 1857 confirmations where I see several instances of "Lepko". The "p" in no way resembles the loopy double 's' of old English/American but rather looks exactly like the "p" in "Stephanus" and "Josephus". Am I never the less probably looking at a double 's'?
          > >
          >
        • Michael Mojher
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/ is where you can post any photograph of the document. Be particular about the “Subject”. From: stevemartonak
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 26 2:12 PM
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            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/ is where you can post any photograph of the document. Be particular about the “Subject”.

            From: stevemartonak
            Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 6:21 AM
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [S-R] question about old alphabet


            I'm looking through the online records for Lipany/Hethars and one of the surnames that appears is Lesko/Lessko, except in the 1857 confirmations where I see several instances of "Lepko". The "p" in no way resembles the loopy double 's' of old English/American but rather looks exactly like the "p" in "Stephanus" and "Josephus". Am I never the less probably looking at a double 's'?





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • n8de@thepoint.net
            Old script will sometimes look like: ps ... for the double-s . Capital J,P,S,R might all look alike, also. Best luck Don Havlicek
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 26 2:34 PM
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              Old script will sometimes look like: ps ... for the 'double-s'.

              Capital J,P,S,R might all look alike, also.

              Best luck
              Don Havlicek


              Quoting stevemartonak <stevemartonak@...>:

              > I'm looking through the online records for Lipany/Hethars and one of
              > the surnames that appears is Lesko/Lessko, except in the 1857
              > confirmations where I see several instances of "Lepko". The "p" in
              > no way resembles the loopy double 's' of old English/American but
              > rather looks exactly like the "p" in "Stephanus" and "Josephus". Am
              > I never the less probably looking at a double 's'?
              >
              >
            • nilo3rak
              Here s source/site that you may want to view: http://genealogy.about.com/od/paleography/qt/old_script.htm Author, Kimberly Powell states The old style S often
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 26 7:34 PM
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                Here's source/site that you may want to view:
                http://genealogy.about.com/od/paleography/qt/old_script.htm
                Author, Kimberly Powell states
                "The old style S often appeared as f or p, especially when followed by a second s. This is apparent in commonly mis-transcribed words such as Jefse and Jepe for Jesse."

                Another resource for 18th, 19th, and early 20th century letters is
                http://www.genealogia.fi/faq/faq031e.htm
                You'll see an "s" that looks like a "p."
                Carolyn



                --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, n8de@... wrote:
                >
                > Old script will sometimes look like: ps ... for the 'double-s'.
                >
                > Capital J,P,S,R might all look alike, also.
                >
                > Best luck
                > Don Havlicek
                >
                >
                > Quoting stevemartonak <stevemartonak@...>:
                >
                > > I'm looking through the online records for Lipany/Hethars and one of
                > > the surnames that appears is Lesko/Lessko, except in the 1857
                > > confirmations where I see several instances of "Lepko". The "p" in
                > > no way resembles the loopy double 's' of old English/American but
                > > rather looks exactly like the "p" in "Stephanus" and "Josephus". Am
                > > I never the less probably looking at a double 's'?
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Elaine Powell
                Steve, I have been reviewing RC church records for several towns in eastern Slovakia, and in one of the films, the person recording the names did use a form of
                Message 7 of 8 , Apr 26 8:28 PM
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                  Steve,

                  I have been reviewing RC church records for several towns in eastern
                  Slovakia, and in one of the films, the person recording the names did
                  use a form of the double s where the first letter had a large lower
                  loop. I can't say that it looked like the letter "p" to me, but it
                  was definitely a relatively unique character.

                  When you gave the information about the source, was it for a microfilm
                  roll that you're viewing at a Family History Center, or a reference to
                  one of the online records? It's helpful for the group to either know
                  the reference for online films, so they can go look directly, or to be
                  able to look at a photo of as much of the entire microfilm page as
                  possible so that the handwriting can be compared based on a larger
                  sample.

                  You mention that this stylization occurred in the 1857 confirmations--
                  is it also used in other records for marriage or death? That could be
                  helpful for you to review also.

                  Elaine P


                  On Apr 26, 2011, at 4:01 PM, stevemartonak wrote:

                  > The name in question is found several times on images 77, 78, and 79
                  > of the Lipany (Hethars) record Inv. #. 563, 1842-1888 but the real
                  > question is not about this specific name but simply was a ligature
                  > for double ess in use at that time and place?
                  >
                  > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" <curt67boc@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Steve,
                  > > Just give us the citation so we can look at the item ourselves.
                  > Can't answer your question without looking at it.
                  > >
                  > > Curt B.
                  > >
                  > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "stevemartonak"
                  > <stevemartonak@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I'm looking through the online records for Lipany/Hethars and
                  > one of the surnames that appears is Lesko/Lessko, except in the 1857
                  > confirmations where I see several instances of "Lepko". The "p" in
                  > no way resembles the loopy double 's' of old English/American but
                  > rather looks exactly like the "p" in "Stephanus" and "Josephus". Am
                  > I never the less probably looking at a double 's'?
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • CurtB
                  Steve, What you have found is a very common script usage, not just in the nineteenth century, but used in many languages from medieval latin to modern languges
                  Message 8 of 8 , Apr 26 8:41 PM
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                    Steve,
                    What you have found is a very common script usage, not just in the nineteenth century, but used in many languages from medieval latin to modern languges that use the Latin alphabet like German, Hungarian, Italian, etc. It is still common in formal European handwriting even today, though rarely in English. German has a special double s writing convention.

                    It is not a ligature. The writing convention is that an internal letter ess (not the beginning of a word) may be written in what seems to you to be a form of the letter f. It really isn't, but it is close, lacking a crossbar. It readily confuses English language readers. On the page 77 you cite look at the name Susana repeated many times as a chosen confirmation name. It may seem to be spelled Sufana, but that is what the internal s looks like. A double internal s, however is always written as fs, that is, the first s gets the flourish but the second one is always written traditionally. It may seem to look like a single letter p, but in natural flow of the script it is just fs.

                    Also on page 77, see the column heading for Nomen assumptum, that is, name assumed at confirmation. To someone unfamiliar with the internal s convention it may seem spelled apumptum, but he is just writing afsumptum, which is what the double internal s looks like.

                    Take it in stride, and you will get to read it with ease.

                    Curt B.

                    --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "stevemartonak" <stevemartonak@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > The name in question is found several times on images 77, 78, and 79
                    > of the Lipany (Hethars) record Inv. #. 563, 1842-1888 but the real question is not about this specific name but simply was a ligature for double ess in use at that time and place?
                    >
                    > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" <curt67boc@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Steve,
                    > > Just give us the citation so we can look at the item ourselves. Can't answer your question without looking at it.
                    > >
                    > > Curt B.
                    > >
                    > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "stevemartonak" <stevemartonak@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > I'm looking through the online records for Lipany/Hethars and one of the surnames that appears is Lesko/Lessko, except in the 1857 confirmations where I see several instances of "Lepko". The "p" in no way resembles the loopy double 's' of old English/American but rather looks exactly like the "p" in "Stephanus" and "Josephus". Am I never the less probably looking at a double 's'?
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
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