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RE: [S-R] Borders 1787

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  • Bill Tarkulich
    The Kingdom of Hungary was extant from 904 to 1848. Zemplen (Zemplin) was a huge county, which extended far into the Magyar-speaking region of the kingdom,
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 8, 2011
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      The Kingdom of Hungary was extant from 904 to 1848. Zemplen (Zemplin) was a huge county, which extended far into the Magyar-speaking region of the kingdom, well south of today's Hungary-Slovakia boundary. For the most part, the northernmost border remained nearly unchanged for nearly 1000 years.


      It was not until 1804, at the conclusion of the Napoleonic wars that the empire of Austria was formed. Counties (zupy) were formed about 1031 for administrative and eclesiastical purposes. At this point,the male population was obliged to carry arms. Recall that the social and political construct at the time was feudalism. The county nobles (almost entirely Magyar) virtually ran the state.

      It was after the Treaty of Trianon in 1920 that small norther sections of contemporary Slovakia were ceded to the then-new Poland.

      Zemplen was an administrative unit of Great Moravia in the 800s. Zemplén is named after its castle. The name is derived from the Slovak word zem or the Slavic zemlja, meaning earth, soil, ground or country.

      Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borsod-Aba%C3%BAj-Zempl%C3%A9n_County

      Bill

      -----Original Message-----
      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Milan Olle
      Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 4:49 PM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787

      Zemplen Sounds like a Slovak word or would it actually be Rusyn? I am suprised
      that Slavic names were given to regions in the Hungarian Empire that date way
      back. Is this a simple adoption of existing names? How long was the Zemplen
      region called Zemplen? If you translate Zemplen in to english would it be earth
      gas or ground gas or am I way off?

      Milan




      ________________________________
      From: Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...>
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 3:19:30 PM
      Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787


      I looked at a 1910 Zemplen County map and the border was further north than
      today’s


      From: spoppclark
      Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 11:58 AM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [S-R] Borders 1787

      I was working with Google Earth and an historical map of 1787 European
      countries. The 1787 overlay showed the far northeastern corner of today's
      Slovakia in the Kingdom of Galicia. This area was part of the Austro-Hungarian
      Empire in the 19th c (Zemplen County) and I'd assumed (dangerous) it was in
      Zemplen County before that.


      Anyone know if the map overlay is simply inaccurate? Or did the border change in
      the late 18th/early 19th c. ?

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      ------------------------------------

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    • Ron
      Thanks for identifying the source of your quotation, Bill. ... would appear to be quite untrue, but oft repeated. A reading of history often identifies the
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 8, 2011
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        Thanks for identifying the source of your quotation, Bill.

        >>For the most part, the northernmost border remained nearly unchanged for nearly 1000 years.

        would appear to be quite untrue, but oft repeated. A reading of history often identifies the northern border REGIONS as unoccupied or wilderness. When occupation of the region is identified, it is often to speak of disputes with church authority seated in Poland (Krakow?) as opposed to church authority residing in Hungary (Nitra?). This is a strong indication of unsettled borders not yet firmly controlled by one side or the other, and maneuvering by both sides to line up allies in the church to back up their claims.

        There are also references in Hungarian history to settling in the Danubian Plain and expanding slowly to the limits of what became the borders, sometime between 1200 and 1400. There is supposed to be a protocol negotiated between Hungary and Poland defining the border as along the crest of the Carpathian Mountains, which again was unresolved for an extended time, and when resolved, resulted in the Poprad drainage (admittedly on the north side of the mountains, the only Slovak river draining north into the Baltic Sea).

        As usual with out ancestral land, it appears there is no simple, in this case one sentence, answer.

        Ron
        PS I capitalized the first reference REGIONS to emphasize the region of the border as opposed to the border proper.

        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Tarkulich" <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
        >
        > The Kingdom of Hungary was extant from 904 to 1848. Zemplen (Zemplin) was a huge county, which extended far into the Magyar-speaking region of the kingdom, well south of today's Hungary-Slovakia boundary. For the most part, the northernmost border remained nearly unchanged for nearly 1000 years.
        >
        >
        > It was not until 1804, at the conclusion of the Napoleonic wars that the empire of Austria was formed. Counties (zupy) were formed about 1031 for administrative and eclesiastical purposes. At this point,the male population was obliged to carry arms. Recall that the social and political construct at the time was feudalism. The county nobles (almost entirely Magyar) virtually ran the state.
        >
        > It was after the Treaty of Trianon in 1920 that small norther sections of contemporary Slovakia were ceded to the then-new Poland.
        >
        > Zemplen was an administrative unit of Great Moravia in the 800s. Zemplén is named after its castle. The name is derived from the Slovak word zem or the Slavic zemlja, meaning earth, soil, ground or country.
        >
        > Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borsod-Aba%C3%BAj-Zempl%C3%A9n_County
        >
        > Bill
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Milan Olle
        > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 4:49 PM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787
        >
        > Zemplen Sounds like a Slovak word or would it actually be Rusyn? I am suprised
        > that Slavic names were given to regions in the Hungarian Empire that date way
        > back. Is this a simple adoption of existing names? How long was the Zemplen
        > region called Zemplen? If you translate Zemplen in to english would it be earth
        > gas or ground gas or am I way off?
        >
        > Milan
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...>
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 3:19:30 PM
        > Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787
        >
        >
        > I looked at a 1910 Zemplen County map and the border was further north than
        > today’s
        >
        >
        > From: spoppclark
        > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 11:58 AM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [S-R] Borders 1787
        >
        > I was working with Google Earth and an historical map of 1787 European
        > countries. The 1787 overlay showed the far northeastern corner of today's
        > Slovakia in the Kingdom of Galicia. This area was part of the Austro-Hungarian
        > Empire in the 19th c (Zemplen County) and I'd assumed (dangerous) it was in
        > Zemplen County before that.
        >
        >
        > Anyone know if the map overlay is simply inaccurate? Or did the border change in
        > the late 18th/early 19th c. ?
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
        >
      • Ron
        Spopp, I Googled maps of Hungarian Border 1787 and found many, with many conflicts in dates and many inconsistencies in the regions shown. Can you better
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 8, 2011
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          Spopp,

          I Googled maps of Hungarian Border 1787 and found many, with many conflicts in dates and many inconsistencies in the regions shown.

          Can you better identify what part of the border you are referring to?

          If nothing else, please describe the differences you observe as compared to the 1910 Zemplin map at
          http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/zemplen.jpg

          which is one of a series of maps often referred to on this forum. Then we will better know what you are talking about.

          Ron

          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "spoppclark" <spoppclark@...> wrote:
          >
          > I was working with Google Earth and an historical map of 1787 European countries. The 1787 overlay showed the far northeastern corner of today's Slovakia in the Kingdom of Galicia. This area was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in the 19th c (Zemplen County) and I'd assumed (dangerous) it was in Zemplen County before that.
          >
          > Anyone know if the map overlay is simply inaccurate? Or did the border change in the late 18th/early 19th c. ?
          >
        • helene cincebeaux
          Thanks Bill - interesting! One question where is or was Zemplin Castle? helene ________________________________ From: Bill Tarkulich
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 8, 2011
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            Thanks Bill - interesting! One question where is or was Zemplin Castle?

            helene




            ________________________________
            From: Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...>
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 9:10:23 PM
            Subject: RE: [S-R] Borders 1787

             
            The Kingdom of Hungary was extant from 904 to 1848. Zemplen (Zemplin) was a huge
            county, which extended far into the Magyar-speaking region of the kingdom, well
            south of today's Hungary-Slovakia boundary. For the most part, the northernmost
            border remained nearly unchanged for nearly 1000 years.


            It was not until 1804, at the conclusion of the Napoleonic wars that the empire
            of Austria was formed. Counties (zupy) were formed about 1031 for administrative
            and eclesiastical purposes. At this point,the male population was obliged to
            carry arms. Recall that the social and political construct at the time was
            feudalism. The county nobles (almost entirely Magyar) virtually ran the state.

            It was after the Treaty of Trianon in 1920 that small norther sections of
            contemporary Slovakia were ceded to the then-new Poland.

            Zemplen was an administrative unit of Great Moravia in the 800s. Zemplén is
            named after its castle. The name is derived from the Slovak word zem or the
            Slavic zemlja, meaning earth, soil, ground or country.

            Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borsod-Aba%C3%BAj-Zempl%C3%A9n_County

            Bill

            -----Original Message-----
            From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of Milan Olle
            Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 4:49 PM
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787

            Zemplen Sounds like a Slovak word or would it actually be Rusyn? I am suprised
            that Slavic names were given to regions in the Hungarian Empire that date way
            back. Is this a simple adoption of existing names? How long was the Zemplen
            region called Zemplen? If you translate Zemplen in to english would it be earth
            gas or ground gas or am I way off?

            Milan

            ________________________________
            From: Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...>
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 3:19:30 PM
            Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787

            I looked at a 1910 Zemplen County map and the border was further north than
            today’s

            From: spoppclark
            Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 11:58 AM
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [S-R] Borders 1787

            I was working with Google Earth and an historical map of 1787 European
            countries. The 1787 overlay showed the far northeastern corner of today's
            Slovakia in the Kingdom of Galicia. This area was part of the Austro-Hungarian
            Empire in the 19th c (Zemplen County) and I'd assumed (dangerous) it was in
            Zemplen County before that.

            Anyone know if the map overlay is simply inaccurate? Or did the border change in

            the late 18th/early 19th c. ?

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            ------------------------------------

            To visit your group on the web, go to:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/

            To unsubscribe from this group, go to
            http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
            SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • CurtB
            Helene, It was an old earthen castle. Not a late stone one. Archaelogical remains in the village of Zemplin (how appropriate). Curt B.
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 8, 2011
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              Helene,
              It was an old earthen castle. Not a late stone one. Archaelogical remains in the village of Zemplin (how appropriate).
              Curt B.

              --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, helene cincebeaux <helenezx@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks Bill - interesting! One question where is or was Zemplin Castle?
              >
              > helene
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...>
              > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 9:10:23 PM
              > Subject: RE: [S-R] Borders 1787
              >
              >  
              > The Kingdom of Hungary was extant from 904 to 1848. Zemplen (Zemplin) was a huge
              > county, which extended far into the Magyar-speaking region of the kingdom, well
              > south of today's Hungary-Slovakia boundary. For the most part, the northernmost
              > border remained nearly unchanged for nearly 1000 years.
              >
              >
              > It was not until 1804, at the conclusion of the Napoleonic wars that the empire
              > of Austria was formed. Counties (zupy) were formed about 1031 for administrative
              > and eclesiastical purposes. At this point,the male population was obliged to
              > carry arms. Recall that the social and political construct at the time was
              > feudalism. The county nobles (almost entirely Magyar) virtually ran the state.
              >
              > It was after the Treaty of Trianon in 1920 that small norther sections of
              > contemporary Slovakia were ceded to the then-new Poland.
              >
              > Zemplen was an administrative unit of Great Moravia in the 800s. Zemplén is
              > named after its castle. The name is derived from the Slovak word zem or the
              > Slavic zemlja, meaning earth, soil, ground or country.
              >
              > Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borsod-Aba%C3%BAj-Zempl%C3%A9n_County
              >
              > Bill
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf Of Milan Olle
              > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 4:49 PM
              > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787
              >
              > Zemplen Sounds like a Slovak word or would it actually be Rusyn? I am suprised
              > that Slavic names were given to regions in the Hungarian Empire that date way
              > back. Is this a simple adoption of existing names? How long was the Zemplen
              > region called Zemplen? If you translate Zemplen in to english would it be earth
              > gas or ground gas or am I way off?
              >
              > Milan
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...>
              > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 3:19:30 PM
              > Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787
              >
              > I looked at a 1910 Zemplen County map and the border was further north than
              > today’s
              >
              > From: spoppclark
              > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 11:58 AM
              > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [S-R] Borders 1787
              >
              > I was working with Google Earth and an historical map of 1787 European
              > countries. The 1787 overlay showed the far northeastern corner of today's
              > Slovakia in the Kingdom of Galicia. This area was part of the Austro-Hungarian
              > Empire in the 19th c (Zemplen County) and I'd assumed (dangerous) it was in
              > Zemplen County before that.
              >
              > Anyone know if the map overlay is simply inaccurate? Or did the border change in
              >
              > the late 18th/early 19th c. ?
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
              > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
              > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • helene cincebeaux
              Hi Curt - i take it that it was in the village of Zemplin at the curve of the Bodrog River - one of the villages i haven t been to and want to explore - one of
              Message 6 of 26 , Feb 8, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Curt - i take it that it was in the village of Zemplin at the curve of the
                Bodrog River - one of the villages i haven't been to and want to explore - one
                of these days.

                i love the Tokaj villages just below and the wine caves.

                helene




                ________________________________
                From: CurtB <curt67boc@...>
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 10:55:59 PM
                Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787

                 
                Helene,
                It was an old earthen castle. Not a late stone one. Archaelogical remains in the
                village of Zemplin (how appropriate).
                Curt B.

                --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, helene cincebeaux <helenezx@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thanks Bill - interesting! One question where is or was Zemplin Castle?
                >
                > helene
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...>
                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 9:10:23 PM
                > Subject: RE: [S-R] Borders 1787
                >
                >  
                > The Kingdom of Hungary was extant from 904 to 1848. Zemplen (Zemplin) was a
                >huge
                >
                > county, which extended far into the Magyar-speaking region of the kingdom, well
                >
                > south of today's Hungary-Slovakia boundary. For the most part, the northernmost
                >
                > border remained nearly unchanged for nearly 1000 years.
                >
                >
                > It was not until 1804, at the conclusion of the Napoleonic wars that the empire
                >
                > of Austria was formed. Counties (zupy) were formed about 1031 for
                >administrative
                >
                > and eclesiastical purposes. At this point,the male population was obliged to
                > carry arms. Recall that the social and political construct at the time was
                > feudalism. The county nobles (almost entirely Magyar) virtually ran the state.
                >
                > It was after the Treaty of Trianon in 1920 that small norther sections of
                > contemporary Slovakia were ceded to the then-new Poland.
                >
                > Zemplen was an administrative unit of Great Moravia in the 800s. Zemplén is
                > named after its castle. The name is derived from the Slovak word zem or the
                > Slavic zemlja, meaning earth, soil, ground or country.
                >
                > Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borsod-Aba%C3%BAj-Zempl%C3%A9n_County
                >
                > Bill
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                > Behalf Of Milan Olle
                > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 4:49 PM
                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787
                >
                > Zemplen Sounds like a Slovak word or would it actually be Rusyn? I am suprised

                > that Slavic names were given to regions in the Hungarian Empire that date way
                > back. Is this a simple adoption of existing names? How long was the Zemplen
                > region called Zemplen? If you translate Zemplen in to english would it be earth
                >
                > gas or ground gas or am I way off?
                >
                > Milan
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...>
                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 3:19:30 PM
                > Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787
                >
                > I looked at a 1910 Zemplen County map and the border was further north than
                > today’s
                >
                > From: spoppclark
                > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 11:58 AM
                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [S-R] Borders 1787
                >
                > I was working with Google Earth and an historical map of 1787 European
                > countries. The 1787 overlay showed the far northeastern corner of today's
                > Slovakia in the Kingdom of Galicia. This area was part of the Austro-Hungarian

                > Empire in the 19th c (Zemplen County) and I'd assumed (dangerous) it was in
                > Zemplen County before that.
                >
                > Anyone know if the map overlay is simply inaccurate? Or did the border change
                >in
                >
                >
                > the late 18th/early 19th c. ?
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Vladimir Linder
                Zemplin castle was located in the valley of river Bodroga in SECOV district about 5 miles from NOVE MESTO POD SIATROM above village Zemplin used to be huge.
                Message 7 of 26 , Feb 8, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Zemplin castle was located in the valley of river
                  Bodroga in SECOV district about 5 miles from NOVE
                  MESTO POD SIATROM above village Zemplin used to be huge.


                  Source: Slovenske Hrady by Ludovit Janota
                  originally published 1935 and re-published 1996


                  Vladi

                  At 07:25 PM 2/8/2011, you wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >Thanks Bill - interesting! One question where is or was Zemplin Castle?
                  >
                  >helene
                  >
                  >________________________________
                  >From: Bill Tarkulich
                  ><<mailto:bill.tarkulich%40iabsi.com>bill.tarkulich@...>
                  >To: <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  >Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 9:10:23 PM
                  >Subject: RE: [S-R] Borders 1787
                  >

                  >The Kingdom of Hungary was extant from 904 to
                  >1848. Zemplen (Zemplin) was a huge
                  >county, which extended far into the
                  >Magyar-speaking region of the kingdom, well
                  >south of today's Hungary-Slovakia boundary. For
                  >the most part, the northernmost
                  >border remained nearly unchanged for nearly 1000 years.
                  >
                  >It was not until 1804, at the conclusion of the
                  >Napoleonic wars that the empire
                  >of Austria was formed. Counties (zupy) were
                  >formed about 1031 for administrative
                  >and eclesiastical purposes. At this point,the male population was obliged to
                  >carry arms. Recall that the social and political construct at the time was
                  >feudalism. The county nobles (almost entirely Magyar) virtually ran the state.
                  >
                  >It was after the Treaty of Trianon in 1920 that small norther sections of
                  >contemporary Slovakia were ceded to the then-new Poland.
                  >
                  >Zemplen was an administrative unit of Great Moravia in the 800s. Zemplén is
                  >named after its castle. The name is derived from the Slovak word zem or the
                  >Slavic zemlja, meaning earth, soil, ground or country.
                  >
                  >Source:
                  ><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borsod-Aba%C3%BAj-Zempl%C3%A9n_County>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borsod-Aba%C3%BAj-Zempl%C3%A9n_County
                  >
                  >Bill
                  >
                  >-----Original Message-----
                  >From:
                  ><mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  >[mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                  >Behalf Of Milan Olle
                  >Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 4:49 PM
                  >To: <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787
                  >
                  >Zemplen Sounds like a Slovak word or would it
                  >actually be Rusyn? I am suprised
                  >that Slavic names were given to regions in the Hungarian Empire that date way
                  >back. Is this a simple adoption of existing names? How long was the Zemplen
                  >region called Zemplen? If you translate Zemplen
                  >in to english would it be earth
                  >gas or ground gas or am I way off?
                  >
                  >Milan
                  >
                  >________________________________
                  >From: Michael Mojher <<mailto:mgmojher%40comcast.net>mgmojher@...>
                  >To: <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  >Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 3:19:30 PM
                  >Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787
                  >
                  >I looked at a 1910 Zemplen County map and the border was further north than
                  >today’s
                  >
                  >From: spoppclark
                  >Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 11:58 AM
                  >To: <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: [S-R] Borders 1787
                  >
                  >I was working with Google Earth and an historical map of 1787 European
                  >countries. The 1787 overlay showed the far northeastern corner of today's
                  >Slovakia in the Kingdom of Galicia. This area
                  >was part of the Austro-Hungarian
                  >Empire in the 19th c (Zemplen County) and I'd assumed (dangerous) it was in
                  >Zemplen County before that.
                  >
                  >Anyone know if the map overlay is simply
                  >inaccurate? Or did the border change in
                  >
                  >the late 18th/early 19th c. ?
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >------------------------------------
                  >
                  >To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  ><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
                  >
                  >To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                  ><http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS>http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS
                  >-or- send blank email to
                  ><mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo>SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
                  >Groups Links
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                • spoppclark
                  Ron - Using the map you refer to, the border illustrated in the 1787 map would run just north of Hummene NW to SE. All of sections numbered 10, 4 & 9 and much
                  Message 8 of 26 , Feb 8, 2011
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                    Ron - Using the map you refer to, the border illustrated in the 1787 map would run just north of Hummene NW to SE. All of sections numbered 10, 4 & 9 and much of section 3 would fall in Galicia.

                    Susan

                    --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <amiak27@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Spopp,
                    >
                    > I Googled maps of Hungarian Border 1787 and found many, with many conflicts in dates and many inconsistencies in the regions shown.
                    >
                    > Can you better identify what part of the border you are referring to?
                    >
                    > If nothing else, please describe the differences you observe as compared to the 1910 Zemplin map at
                    > http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/zemplen.jpg
                    >
                    > which is one of a series of maps often referred to on this forum. Then we will better know what you are talking about.
                    >
                    > Ron
                    >
                    > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "spoppclark" <spoppclark@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I was working with Google Earth and an historical map of 1787 European countries. The 1787 overlay showed the far northeastern corner of today's Slovakia in the Kingdom of Galicia. This area was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in the 19th c (Zemplen County) and I'd assumed (dangerous) it was in Zemplen County before that.
                    > >
                    > > Anyone know if the map overlay is simply inaccurate? Or did the border change in the late 18th/early 19th c. ?
                    > >
                    >
                  • Ron
                    Thanks for the specifics, Susan! I have nothing much concrete to add at the moment, but (to me) in is interesting that the map/date is right before the first
                    Message 9 of 26 , Feb 9, 2011
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                      Thanks for the specifics, Susan!

                      I have nothing much concrete to add at the moment, but (to me) in is interesting that the map/date is right before the first Partition of Poland in 1792; and that the border region in question is about the same as I was referring to in my earlier posting on ecclesiastical borders (around the Kezmarok area, I believe), though that dispute is from a few hundred years earlier. I have seen another map where Bartfa / Bardejov was also shown in Galicia...

                      Don't you love a good mystery?

                      Ron

                      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "spoppclark" <spoppclark@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Ron - Using the map you refer to, the border illustrated in the 1787 map would run just north of Hummene NW to SE. All of sections numbered 10, 4 & 9 and much of section 3 would fall in Galicia.
                      >
                      > Susan
                      >
                      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <amiak27@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Spopp,
                      > >
                      > > I Googled maps of Hungarian Border 1787 and found many, with many conflicts in dates and many inconsistencies in the regions shown.
                      > >
                      > > Can you better identify what part of the border you are referring to?
                      > >
                      > > If nothing else, please describe the differences you observe as compared to the 1910 Zemplin map at
                      > > http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/zemplen.jpg
                      > >
                      > > which is one of a series of maps often referred to on this forum. Then we will better know what you are talking about.
                      > >
                      > > Ron
                      > >
                      > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "spoppclark" <spoppclark@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I was working with Google Earth and an historical map of 1787 European countries. The 1787 overlay showed the far northeastern corner of today's Slovakia in the Kingdom of Galicia. This area was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in the 19th c (Zemplen County) and I'd assumed (dangerous) it was in Zemplen County before that.
                      > > >
                      > > > Anyone know if the map overlay is simply inaccurate? Or did the border change in the late 18th/early 19th c. ?
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • CurtB
                      Yes Helene, that s the one. I drove there with my cousin a while back. Curt B.
                      Message 10 of 26 , Feb 9, 2011
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                        Yes Helene, that's the one. I drove there with my cousin a while back.

                        Curt B.

                        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, helene cincebeaux <helenezx@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Curt - i take it that it was in the village of Zemplin at the curve of the
                        > Bodrog River - one of the villages i haven't been to and want to explore - one
                        > of these days.
                        >
                        > i love the Tokaj villages just below and the wine caves.
                        >
                        > helene
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: CurtB <curt67boc@...>
                        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 10:55:59 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787
                        >
                        >  
                        > Helene,
                        > It was an old earthen castle. Not a late stone one. Archaelogical remains in the
                        > village of Zemplin (how appropriate).
                        > Curt B.
                        >
                        > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, helene cincebeaux <helenezx@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Thanks Bill - interesting! One question where is or was Zemplin Castle?
                        > >
                        > > helene
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ________________________________
                        > > From: Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@>
                        > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 9:10:23 PM
                        > > Subject: RE: [S-R] Borders 1787
                        > >
                        > >  
                        > > The Kingdom of Hungary was extant from 904 to 1848. Zemplen (Zemplin) was a
                        > >huge
                        > >
                        > > county, which extended far into the Magyar-speaking region of the kingdom, well
                        > >
                        > > south of today's Hungary-Slovakia boundary. For the most part, the northernmost
                        > >
                        > > border remained nearly unchanged for nearly 1000 years.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > It was not until 1804, at the conclusion of the Napoleonic wars that the empire
                        > >
                        > > of Austria was formed. Counties (zupy) were formed about 1031 for
                        > >administrative
                        > >
                        > > and eclesiastical purposes. At this point,the male population was obliged to
                        > > carry arms. Recall that the social and political construct at the time was
                        > > feudalism. The county nobles (almost entirely Magyar) virtually ran the state.
                        > >
                        > > It was after the Treaty of Trianon in 1920 that small norther sections of
                        > > contemporary Slovakia were ceded to the then-new Poland.
                        > >
                        > > Zemplen was an administrative unit of Great Moravia in the 800s. Zemplén is
                        > > named after its castle. The name is derived from the Slovak word zem or the
                        > > Slavic zemlja, meaning earth, soil, ground or country.
                        > >
                        > > Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borsod-Aba%C3%BAj-Zempl%C3%A9n_County
                        > >
                        > > Bill
                        > >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                        > > Behalf Of Milan Olle
                        > > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 4:49 PM
                        > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787
                        > >
                        > > Zemplen Sounds like a Slovak word or would it actually be Rusyn? I am suprised
                        >
                        > > that Slavic names were given to regions in the Hungarian Empire that date way
                        > > back. Is this a simple adoption of existing names? How long was the Zemplen
                        > > region called Zemplen? If you translate Zemplen in to english would it be earth
                        > >
                        > > gas or ground gas or am I way off?
                        > >
                        > > Milan
                        > >
                        > > ________________________________
                        > > From: Michael Mojher <mgmojher@>
                        > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 3:19:30 PM
                        > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787
                        > >
                        > > I looked at a 1910 Zemplen County map and the border was further north than
                        > > today’s
                        > >
                        > > From: spoppclark
                        > > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 11:58 AM
                        > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Subject: [S-R] Borders 1787
                        > >
                        > > I was working with Google Earth and an historical map of 1787 European
                        > > countries. The 1787 overlay showed the far northeastern corner of today's
                        > > Slovakia in the Kingdom of Galicia. This area was part of the Austro-Hungarian
                        >
                        > > Empire in the 19th c (Zemplen County) and I'd assumed (dangerous) it was in
                        > > Zemplen County before that.
                        > >
                        > > Anyone know if the map overlay is simply inaccurate? Or did the border change
                        > >in
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > the late 18th/early 19th c. ?
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
                        > >
                        > > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                        > > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                        > > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • nilo3rak
                        Just Google Zemplen County History and go to Wikipedia s site. There is a link to Zemplen castle on this page. It was, first, a Celtic hill-fort, then
                        Message 11 of 26 , Feb 9, 2011
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                          Just Google "Zemplen County History" and go to Wikipedia's site. There is a link to "Zemplen castle" on this page.

                          It was, first, a Celtic hill-fort, then Slavic (Greater Moravian Empire), then Magyar,
                          and now there are two churches on the site. Fascinating stuff, and a lot of history!

                          Carolyn



                          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" <curt67boc@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Helene,
                          > It was an old earthen castle. Not a late stone one. Archaelogical remains in the village of Zemplin (how appropriate).
                          > Curt B.
                          >
                          > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, helene cincebeaux <helenezx@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Thanks Bill - interesting! One question where is or was Zemplin Castle?
                          > >
                          > > helene
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ________________________________
                          > > From: Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@>
                          > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 9:10:23 PM
                          > > Subject: RE: [S-R] Borders 1787
                          > >
                          > >  
                          > > The Kingdom of Hungary was extant from 904 to 1848. Zemplen (Zemplin) was a huge
                          > > county, which extended far into the Magyar-speaking region of the kingdom, well
                          > > south of today's Hungary-Slovakia boundary. For the most part, the northernmost
                          > > border remained nearly unchanged for nearly 1000 years.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > It was not until 1804, at the conclusion of the Napoleonic wars that the empire
                          > > of Austria was formed. Counties (zupy) were formed about 1031 for administrative
                          > > and eclesiastical purposes. At this point,the male population was obliged to
                          > > carry arms. Recall that the social and political construct at the time was
                          > > feudalism. The county nobles (almost entirely Magyar) virtually ran the state.
                          > >
                          > > It was after the Treaty of Trianon in 1920 that small norther sections of
                          > > contemporary Slovakia were ceded to the then-new Poland.
                          > >
                          > > Zemplen was an administrative unit of Great Moravia in the 800s. Zemplén is
                          > > named after its castle. The name is derived from the Slovak word zem or the
                          > > Slavic zemlja, meaning earth, soil, ground or country.
                          > >
                          > > Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borsod-Aba%C3%BAj-Zempl%C3%A9n_County
                          > >
                          > > Bill
                          > >
                          > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                          > > Behalf Of Milan Olle
                          > > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 4:49 PM
                          > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787
                          > >
                          > > Zemplen Sounds like a Slovak word or would it actually be Rusyn? I am suprised
                          > > that Slavic names were given to regions in the Hungarian Empire that date way
                          > > back. Is this a simple adoption of existing names? How long was the Zemplen
                          > > region called Zemplen? If you translate Zemplen in to english would it be earth
                          > > gas or ground gas or am I way off?
                          > >
                          > > Milan
                          > >
                          > > ________________________________
                          > > From: Michael Mojher <mgmojher@>
                          > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 3:19:30 PM
                          > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787
                          > >
                          > > I looked at a 1910 Zemplen County map and the border was further north than
                          > > today’s
                          > >
                          > > From: spoppclark
                          > > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 11:58 AM
                          > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Subject: [S-R] Borders 1787
                          > >
                          > > I was working with Google Earth and an historical map of 1787 European
                          > > countries. The 1787 overlay showed the far northeastern corner of today's
                          > > Slovakia in the Kingdom of Galicia. This area was part of the Austro-Hungarian
                          > > Empire in the 19th c (Zemplen County) and I'd assumed (dangerous) it was in
                          > > Zemplen County before that.
                          > >
                          > > Anyone know if the map overlay is simply inaccurate? Or did the border change in
                          > >
                          > > the late 18th/early 19th c. ?
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
                          > >
                          > > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                          > > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                          > > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          >
                        • helene cincebeaux
                          Thanks to all for the good info on Zemplin Castle - i can t wait to read this - never dreamed the Great Moravian Empire extended so far - Go Moravians! They
                          Message 12 of 26 , Feb 9, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Thanks to all for the good info on Zemplin Castle - i can't wait to read this -
                            never dreamed the Great Moravian Empire extended so far - Go Moravians! They are
                            certainly the lost people of history although they had the earliest form of
                            organized government in Europe and then there were the Moravians who were of the
                            Moravian Brethren, a religious group with connections to Comenius, they traveled
                            the world as missionaries - a fascinating story!

                            helene


                            ________________________________
                            From: nilo3rak <eirrac25@...>
                            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wed, February 9, 2011 3:32:34 PM
                            Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787

                             
                            Just Google "Zemplen County History" and go to Wikipedia's site. There is a link
                            to "Zemplen castle" on this page.


                            It was, first, a Celtic hill-fort, then Slavic (Greater Moravian Empire), then
                            Magyar,

                            and now there are two churches on the site. Fascinating stuff, and a lot of
                            history!

                            Carolyn

                            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "CurtB" <curt67boc@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Helene,
                            > It was an old earthen castle. Not a late stone one. Archaelogical remains in
                            >the village of Zemplin (how appropriate).
                            > Curt B.
                            >
                            > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, helene cincebeaux <helenezx@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Thanks Bill - interesting! One question where is or was Zemplin Castle?
                            > >
                            > > helene
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ________________________________
                            > > From: Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@>
                            > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 9:10:23 PM
                            > > Subject: RE: [S-R] Borders 1787
                            > >
                            > >  
                            > > The Kingdom of Hungary was extant from 904 to 1848. Zemplen (Zemplin) was a
                            >huge
                            >
                            > > county, which extended far into the Magyar-speaking region of the kingdom,
                            >well
                            >
                            > > south of today's Hungary-Slovakia boundary. For the most part, the
                            >northernmost
                            >
                            > > border remained nearly unchanged for nearly 1000 years.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > It was not until 1804, at the conclusion of the Napoleonic wars that the
                            >empire
                            >
                            > > of Austria was formed. Counties (zupy) were formed about 1031 for
                            >administrative
                            >
                            > > and eclesiastical purposes. At this point,the male population was obliged to

                            > > carry arms. Recall that the social and political construct at the time was
                            > > feudalism. The county nobles (almost entirely Magyar) virtually ran the
                            >state.
                            > >
                            > > It was after the Treaty of Trianon in 1920 that small norther sections of
                            > > contemporary Slovakia were ceded to the then-new Poland.
                            > >
                            > > Zemplen was an administrative unit of Great Moravia in the 800s. Zemplén is

                            > > named after its castle. The name is derived from the Slovak word zem or the
                            > > Slavic zemlja, meaning earth, soil, ground or country.
                            > >
                            > > Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borsod-Aba%C3%BAj-Zempl%C3%A9n_County
                            > >
                            > > Bill
                            > >
                            > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                            > > Behalf Of Milan Olle
                            > > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 4:49 PM
                            > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787
                            > >
                            > > Zemplen Sounds like a Slovak word or would it actually be Rusyn? I am
                            >suprised
                            >
                            > > that Slavic names were given to regions in the Hungarian Empire that date way
                            >
                            > > back. Is this a simple adoption of existing names? How long was the Zemplen
                            > > region called Zemplen? If you translate Zemplen in to english would it be
                            >earth
                            >
                            > > gas or ground gas or am I way off?
                            > >
                            > > Milan
                            > >
                            > > ________________________________
                            > > From: Michael Mojher <mgmojher@>
                            > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 3:19:30 PM
                            > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787
                            > >
                            > > I looked at a 1910 Zemplen County map and the border was further north than
                            > > today’s
                            > >
                            > > From: spoppclark
                            > > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 11:58 AM
                            > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Subject: [S-R] Borders 1787
                            > >
                            > > I was working with Google Earth and an historical map of 1787 European
                            > > countries. The 1787 overlay showed the far northeastern corner of today's
                            > > Slovakia in the Kingdom of Galicia. This area was part of the
                            >Austro-Hungarian
                            >
                            > > Empire in the 19th c (Zemplen County) and I'd assumed (dangerous) it was in
                            > > Zemplen County before that.
                            > >
                            > > Anyone know if the map overlay is simply inaccurate? Or did the border change
                            >in
                            >
                            > >
                            > > the late 18th/early 19th c. ?
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            > > ------------------------------------
                            > >
                            > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
                            > >
                            > > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                            > > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                            > > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >







                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Julie Michutka
                            ... Mark Rabideau just posted over on the APG Members list a link to a set of 14 maps that he s placed on his website, of central Europe over the centuries.
                            Message 13 of 26 , Feb 10, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On Feb 8, 2011, at 2:58 PM, spoppclark wrote:

                              > I was working with Google Earth and an historical map of 1787
                              > European countries. The 1787 overlay showed the far northeastern
                              > corner of today's Slovakia in the Kingdom of Galicia. This area was
                              > part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in the 19th c (Zemplen County)
                              > and I'd assumed (dangerous) it was in Zemplen County before that.

                              Mark Rabideau just posted over on the APG Members list a link to a set
                              of 14 maps that he's placed on his website, of "central" Europe over
                              the centuries. See http://www.many-roads.com/2009/12/02/central-europe-baltic-region/
                              Altho' he calls it central Europe, it includes Poland (which I
                              think is actually eastern Europe) and for the most part does not
                              include details of the area of Slovakia (then part of Hungary) which
                              is central, not Eastern Europe. But the maps look useful for us Slovak
                              researchers anyway. And since it covers Poland, that includes the
                              area mentioned above.

                              Hope this site will be of some help.

                              Julie Michutka
                              jmm@...
                            • spoppclark
                              Mysteries abound in my research, Ron. Once or twice a breakthrough would be nice! However, since my ultimate goal in identifying the borders is to suggest
                              Message 14 of 26 , Feb 10, 2011
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                                Mysteries abound in my research, Ron. Once or twice a breakthrough would be nice! However, since my ultimate goal in identifying the borders is to suggest where records might have been held, one of the maps (Central Europe - 1786) Julie mentioned in her reply below does show the Kingdom of Galicia with the notation "To Austria 1772" suggesting that where ever the border was in those mountains, the ultimate authority was still the Austrian Empire.

                                'Tis a puzzle!

                                Susan

                                --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <amiak27@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Thanks for the specifics, Susan!
                                >
                                > I have nothing much concrete to add at the moment, but (to me) in is interesting that the map/date is right before the first Partition of Poland in 1792; and that the border region in question is about the same as I was referring to in my earlier posting on ecclesiastical borders (around the Kezmarok area, I believe), though that dispute is from a few hundred years earlier. I have seen another map where Bartfa / Bardejov was also shown in Galicia...
                                >
                                > Don't you love a good mystery?
                                >
                                > Ron
                                >
                                > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "spoppclark" <spoppclark@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Ron - Using the map you refer to, the border illustrated in the 1787 map would run just north of Hummene NW to SE. All of sections numbered 10, 4 & 9 and much of section 3 would fall in Galicia.
                                > >
                                > > Susan
                                > >
                                > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <amiak27@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Spopp,
                                > > >
                                > > > I Googled maps of Hungarian Border 1787 and found many, with many conflicts in dates and many inconsistencies in the regions shown.
                                > > >
                                > > > Can you better identify what part of the border you are referring to?
                                > > >
                                > > > If nothing else, please describe the differences you observe as compared to the 1910 Zemplin map at
                                > > > http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/zemplen.jpg
                                > > >
                                > > > which is one of a series of maps often referred to on this forum. Then we will better know what you are talking about.
                                > > >
                                > > > Ron
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "spoppclark" <spoppclark@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I was working with Google Earth and an historical map of 1787 European countries. The 1787 overlay showed the far northeastern corner of today's Slovakia in the Kingdom of Galicia. This area was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in the 19th c (Zemplen County) and I'd assumed (dangerous) it was in Zemplen County before that.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Anyone know if the map overlay is simply inaccurate? Or did the border change in the late 18th/early 19th c. ?
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • spoppclark
                                Thank you, Julie! The maps do add some information to the mix making it clear the Kingdom of Galicia was under Austrian control. Now to determine when the the
                                Message 15 of 26 , Feb 10, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Thank you, Julie! The maps do add some information to the mix making it clear the Kingdom of Galicia was under Austrian control. Now to determine when the the Zemplen border changed...

                                  Susan

                                  --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Julie Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On Feb 8, 2011, at 2:58 PM, spoppclark wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > I was working with Google Earth and an historical map of 1787
                                  > > European countries. The 1787 overlay showed the far northeastern
                                  > > corner of today's Slovakia in the Kingdom of Galicia. This area was
                                  > > part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in the 19th c (Zemplen County)
                                  > > and I'd assumed (dangerous) it was in Zemplen County before that.
                                  >
                                  > Mark Rabideau just posted over on the APG Members list a link to a set
                                  > of 14 maps that he's placed on his website, of "central" Europe over
                                  > the centuries. See http://www.many-roads.com/2009/12/02/central-europe-baltic-region/
                                  > Altho' he calls it central Europe, it includes Poland (which I
                                  > think is actually eastern Europe) and for the most part does not
                                  > include details of the area of Slovakia (then part of Hungary) which
                                  > is central, not Eastern Europe. But the maps look useful for us Slovak
                                  > researchers anyway. And since it covers Poland, that includes the
                                  > area mentioned above.
                                  >
                                  > Hope this site will be of some help.
                                  >
                                  > Julie Michutka
                                  > jmm@...
                                  >
                                • Julie Michutka
                                  ... The Library of Congress will also supply maps if you have a specific request; I had the contact info from Helen Fedor on the Slovak World list, at some
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Feb 10, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    On Feb 10, 2011, at 9:33 AM, spoppclark wrote:

                                    > Thank you, Julie! The maps do add some information to the mix making
                                    > it clear the Kingdom of Galicia was under Austrian control. Now to
                                    > determine when the the Zemplen border changed...

                                    The Library of Congress will also supply maps if you have a specific
                                    request; I had the contact info from Helen Fedor on the Slovak World
                                    list, at some point. I actually had a class assignment in Boston
                                    University's Certificate in Genealogical Research program that dealt
                                    with a family from a village in that area. I was determined to figure
                                    out whether the village had been in the area where the border had
                                    wavered back and forth. The instructor liked the maps so much that he
                                    asked if he could keep them, as the family in the assignment was his
                                    own.

                                    Julie Michutka
                                    jmm@...
                                  • helene cincebeaux
                                    Hi Julie - Thanks for a really neat site - what super maps The one i am especially enjoying is of our corner of the world but the only thing i can identify is
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Feb 10, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi Julie - Thanks for a really neat site - what super maps

                                      The one i am especially enjoying is of our corner of the world but the only
                                      thing i can identify is the Danube River, this is the map titled Germanic -
                                      Roman Kingdoms 486.

                                      Love the name for the Carpathians - "Luna Silva" - so odd to see what i thought
                                      i knew so well so totally different as to city and place names.

                                      Really appreciate having this connection - thanks!

                                      helene




                                      ________________________________
                                      From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
                                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thu, February 10, 2011 8:20:31 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787

                                       

                                      On Feb 8, 2011, at 2:58 PM, spoppclark wrote:

                                      > I was working with Google Earth and an historical map of 1787
                                      > European countries. The 1787 overlay showed the far northeastern
                                      > corner of today's Slovakia in the Kingdom of Galicia. This area was
                                      > part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in the 19th c (Zemplen County)
                                      > and I'd assumed (dangerous) it was in Zemplen County before that.

                                      Mark Rabideau just posted over on the APG Members list a link to a set
                                      of 14 maps that he's placed on his website, of "central" Europe over
                                      the centuries. See
                                      http://www.many-roads.com/2009/12/02/central-europe-baltic-region/

                                      Altho' he calls it central Europe, it includes Poland (which I
                                      think is actually eastern Europe) and for the most part does not
                                      include details of the area of Slovakia (then part of Hungary) which
                                      is central, not Eastern Europe. But the maps look useful for us Slovak
                                      researchers anyway. And since it covers Poland, that includes the
                                      area mentioned above.

                                      Hope this site will be of some help.

                                      Julie Michutka
                                      jmm@...






                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • david1law@aol.com
                                      Dear Julie: Thank you very much for sharing! It is an awesome site for old maps. Helene, words Luna Silva is Latin words, with luna meaning moon and
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Feb 10, 2011
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Dear Julie:

                                        Thank you very much for sharing! It is an awesome site for old maps.
                                        Helene, words "Luna Silva" is Latin words, with "luna" meaning "moon" and
                                        "silva" meaning "forest." In Latin grammar, adjective usually follow the nouns
                                        that they modify. So the name would translate as the "Forest Moon"
                                        mountains, and most likely reflected the fact that the mountains rose above the
                                        forest and could be seen from the moonlight (particular if they were snow
                                        covered at the time).

                                        Best regards,

                                        David


                                        In a message dated 2/10/2011 11:18:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                        helenezx@... writes:




                                        Hi Julie - Thanks for a really neat site - what super maps

                                        The one i am especially enjoying is of our corner of the world but the
                                        only
                                        thing i can identify is the Danube River, this is the map titled Germanic
                                        -
                                        Roman Kingdoms 486.

                                        Love the name for the Carpathians - "Luna Silva" - so odd to see what i
                                        thought
                                        i knew so well so totally different as to city and place names.

                                        Really appreciate having this connection - thanks!

                                        helene

                                        ________________________________
                                        From: Julie Michutka <_jmm@..._ (mailto:jmm@...) >
                                        To: _SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
                                        Sent: Thu, February 10, 2011 8:20:31 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787



                                        On Feb 8, 2011, at 2:58 PM, spoppclark wrote:

                                        > I was working with Google Earth and an historical map of 1787
                                        > European countries. The 1787 overlay showed the far northeastern
                                        > corner of today's Slovakia in the Kingdom of Galicia. This area was
                                        > part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in the 19th c (Zemplen County)
                                        > and I'd assumed (dangerous) it was in Zemplen County before that.

                                        Mark Rabideau just posted over on the APG Members list a link to a set
                                        of 14 maps that he's placed on his website, of "central" Europe over
                                        the centuries. See
                                        _http://www.many-roads.com/2009/12/02/central-europe-baltic-region/_
                                        (http://www.many-roads.com/2009/12/02/central-europe-baltic-region/)

                                        Altho' he calls it central Europe, it includes Poland (which I
                                        think is actually eastern Europe) and for the most part does not
                                        include details of the area of Slovakia (then part of Hungary) which
                                        is central, not Eastern Europe. But the maps look useful for us Slovak
                                        researchers anyway. And since it covers Poland, that includes the
                                        area mentioned above.

                                        Hope this site will be of some help.

                                        Julie Michutka
                                        _jmm@..._ (mailto:jmm@...)

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Michael Mojher
                                        Borders, what borders? One has to remember that unlike todays very strict borders those of a hundred years ago were not as rigid. If you get a detailed map in
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Feb 10, 2011
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Borders, what borders? One has to remember that unlike todays very strict borders those of a hundred years ago were not as rigid. If you get a detailed map in border areas you can see that there are footpaths that cross the borders. Some of these paths go back hundreds of years. The major roads are what interested the Crown because it was at these crossings that tariffs were collected on trade. I read that 1/80th of the value was the tax on things coming into Hungary in the 1800’s.
                                          On the map of dialects in Slovakia one finds that they were not affected by borders. In my home village of Hromos the dialect was Goral. This dialect was spoken on the Polish side of the Carpathian Mountains also. I think this is a clear example of how borders did not have the same meaning then as today. People that were economically and socially united created their own world.
                                          For the Slovaks the borders have been fairly stable over the nearly 1000 year rule of Hungary. When Hungary joined the Austro-Hungarian Empire this was the first of a major border changes. With the defeat of the Austro-Hungarian Empire came the creation of Czechoslovakia. This brought about major changes to the Slovak border as reparations were made by giving up land. The last border change came with Slovakia becoming an independent country. Per se the borders of Hungary were fairly stable.
                                          There was an example of a border change in the area of my ancestral village, Hromos, near Stara Lubovna. In the 1700’s the Hungarian king took out a loan from the Polish king. As collateral the Polish king took control over 17 village in Hungary. All in my “neck of the woods”. That control lasted for 150 years. That “occupation” had its affect. My uncle taught my wife a phrase in Slovak. When we went to Slovakia our cousins there said it sounded more like Polish than Slovak.
                                          In the end, one should not use todays standards to measure how things were done in the past.


                                          From: david1law@...
                                          Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 9:54 AM
                                          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787


                                          Dear Julie:

                                          Thank you very much for sharing! It is an awesome site for old maps.
                                          Helene, words "Luna Silva" is Latin words, with "luna" meaning "moon" and
                                          "silva" meaning "forest." In Latin grammar, adjective usually follow the nouns
                                          that they modify. So the name would translate as the "Forest Moon"
                                          mountains, and most likely reflected the fact that the mountains rose above the
                                          forest and could be seen from the moonlight (particular if they were snow
                                          covered at the time).

                                          Best regards,

                                          David


                                          In a message dated 2/10/2011 11:18:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                          mailto:helenezx%40yahoo.com writes:

                                          Hi Julie - Thanks for a really neat site - what super maps

                                          The one i am especially enjoying is of our corner of the world but the
                                          only
                                          thing i can identify is the Danube River, this is the map titled Germanic
                                          -
                                          Roman Kingdoms 486.

                                          Love the name for the Carpathians - "Luna Silva" - so odd to see what i
                                          thought
                                          i knew so well so totally different as to city and place names.

                                          Really appreciate having this connection - thanks!

                                          helene

                                          ________________________________
                                          From: Julie Michutka <mailto:_jmm%40pathbridge.net_ (mailto:mailto:jmm%40pathbridge.net) >
                                          To: mailto:_SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com)
                                          Sent: Thu, February 10, 2011 8:20:31 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787

                                          On Feb 8, 2011, at 2:58 PM, spoppclark wrote:

                                          > I was working with Google Earth and an historical map of 1787
                                          > European countries. The 1787 overlay showed the far northeastern
                                          > corner of today's Slovakia in the Kingdom of Galicia. This area was
                                          > part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in the 19th c (Zemplen County)
                                          > and I'd assumed (dangerous) it was in Zemplen County before that.

                                          Mark Rabideau just posted over on the APG Members list a link to a set
                                          of 14 maps that he's placed on his website, of "central" Europe over
                                          the centuries. See
                                          _http://www.many-roads.com/2009/12/02/central-europe-baltic-region/_
                                          (http://www.many-roads.com/2009/12/02/central-europe-baltic-region/)

                                          Altho' he calls it central Europe, it includes Poland (which I
                                          think is actually eastern Europe) and for the most part does not
                                          include details of the area of Slovakia (then part of Hungary) which
                                          is central, not Eastern Europe. But the maps look useful for us Slovak
                                          researchers anyway. And since it covers Poland, that includes the
                                          area mentioned above.

                                          Hope this site will be of some help.

                                          Julie Michutka
                                          mailto:_jmm%40pathbridge.net_ (mailto:mailto:jmm%40pathbridge.net)

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Elaine
                                          Michael, thanks for this thought-provoking perspective. Could you remind us how to find the dialect map that you mention below? I remember it coming up before,
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Feb 10, 2011
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Michael, thanks for this thought-provoking perspective.

                                            Could you remind us how to find the dialect map that you mention below? I remember it coming up before, but I didn't know all my ancestral villages then!

                                            Thanks,

                                            Elaine

                                            Sent from my iPhone

                                            On Feb 10, 2011, at 1:11 PM, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@...> wrote:

                                            > Borders, what borders? One has to remember that unlike todays very strict borders those of a hundred years ago were not as rigid. If you get a detailed map in border areas you can see that there are footpaths that cross the borders. Some of these paths go back hundreds of years. The major roads are what interested the Crown because it was at these crossings that tariffs were collected on trade. I read that 1/80th of the value was the tax on things coming into Hungary in the 1800’s.
                                            > On the map of dialects in Slovakia one finds that they were not affected by borders. In my home village of Hromos the dialect was Goral. This dialect was spoken on the Polish side of the Carpathian Mountains also. I think this is a clear example of how borders did not have the same meaning then as today. People that were economically and socially united created their own world.
                                            > For the Slovaks the borders have been fairly stable over the nearly 1000 year rule of Hungary. When Hungary joined the Austro-Hungarian Empire this was the first of a major border changes. With the defeat of the Austro-Hungarian Empire came the creation of Czechoslovakia. This brought about major changes to the Slovak border as reparations were made by giving up land. The last border change came with Slovakia becoming an independent country. Per se the borders of Hungary were fairly stable.
                                            > There was an example of a border change in the area of my ancestral village, Hromos, near Stara Lubovna. In the 1700’s the Hungarian king took out a loan from the Polish king. As collateral the Polish king took control over 17 village in Hungary. All in my “neck of the woods”. That control lasted for 150 years. That “occupation” had its affect. My uncle taught my wife a phrase in Slovak. When we went to Slovakia our cousins there said it sounded more like Polish than Slovak.
                                            > In the end, one should not use todays standards to measure how things were done in the past.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > From: david1law@...
                                            > Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 9:54 AM
                                            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787
                                            >
                                            > Dear Julie:
                                            >
                                            > Thank you very much for sharing! It is an awesome site for old maps.
                                            > Helene, words "Luna Silva" is Latin words, with "luna" meaning "moon" and
                                            > "silva" meaning "forest." In Latin grammar, adjective usually follow the nouns
                                            > that they modify. So the name would translate as the "Forest Moon"
                                            > mountains, and most likely reflected the fact that the mountains rose above the
                                            > forest and could be seen from the moonlight (particular if they were snow
                                            > covered at the time).
                                            >
                                            > Best regards,
                                            >
                                            > David
                                            >
                                            > In a message dated 2/10/2011 11:18:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                            > mailto:helenezx%40yahoo.com writes:
                                            >
                                            > Hi Julie - Thanks for a really neat site - what super maps
                                            >
                                            > The one i am especially enjoying is of our corner of the world but the
                                            > only
                                            > thing i can identify is the Danube River, this is the map titled Germanic
                                            > -
                                            > Roman Kingdoms 486.
                                            >
                                            > Love the name for the Carpathians - "Luna Silva" - so odd to see what i
                                            > thought
                                            > i knew so well so totally different as to city and place names.
                                            >
                                            > Really appreciate having this connection - thanks!
                                            >
                                            > helene
                                            >
                                            > ________________________________
                                            > From: Julie Michutka <mailto:_jmm%40pathbridge.net_ (mailto:mailto:jmm%40pathbridge.net) >
                                            > To: mailto:_SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com)
                                            > Sent: Thu, February 10, 2011 8:20:31 AM
                                            > Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787
                                            >
                                            > On Feb 8, 2011, at 2:58 PM, spoppclark wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > I was working with Google Earth and an historical map of 1787
                                            > > European countries. The 1787 overlay showed the far northeastern
                                            > > corner of today's Slovakia in the Kingdom of Galicia. This area was
                                            > > part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in the 19th c (Zemplen County)
                                            > > and I'd assumed (dangerous) it was in Zemplen County before that.
                                            >
                                            > Mark Rabideau just posted over on the APG Members list a link to a set
                                            > of 14 maps that he's placed on his website, of "central" Europe over
                                            > the centuries. See
                                            > _http://www.many-roads.com/2009/12/02/central-europe-baltic-region/_
                                            > (http://www.many-roads.com/2009/12/02/central-europe-baltic-region/)
                                            >
                                            > Altho' he calls it central Europe, it includes Poland (which I
                                            > think is actually eastern Europe) and for the most part does not
                                            > include details of the area of Slovakia (then part of Hungary) which
                                            > is central, not Eastern Europe. But the maps look useful for us Slovak
                                            > researchers anyway. And since it covers Poland, that includes the
                                            > area mentioned above.
                                            >
                                            > Hope this site will be of some help.
                                            >
                                            > Julie Michutka
                                            > mailto:_jmm%40pathbridge.net_ (mailto:mailto:jmm%40pathbridge.net)
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Michael Mojher
                                            http://www.pitt.edu/~armata/dialects.htm From: Elaine Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 5:09 PM To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Feb 10, 2011
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              http://www.pitt.edu/~armata/dialects.htm

                                              From: Elaine
                                              Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 5:09 PM
                                              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787


                                              Michael, thanks for this thought-provoking perspective.

                                              Could you remind us how to find the dialect map that you mention below? I remember it coming up before, but I didn't know all my ancestral villages then!

                                              Thanks,

                                              Elaine

                                              Sent from my iPhone

                                              On Feb 10, 2011, at 1:11 PM, "Michael Mojher" <mailto:mgmojher%40comcast.net> wrote:

                                              > Borders, what borders? One has to remember that unlike todays very strict borders those of a hundred years ago were not as rigid. If you get a detailed map in border areas you can see that there are footpaths that cross the borders. Some of these paths go back hundreds of years. The major roads are what interested the Crown because it was at these crossings that tariffs were collected on trade. I read that 1/80th of the value was the tax on things coming into Hungary in the 1800’s.
                                              > On the map of dialects in Slovakia one finds that they were not affected by borders. In my home village of Hromos the dialect was Goral. This dialect was spoken on the Polish side of the Carpathian Mountains also. I think this is a clear example of how borders did not have the same meaning then as today. People that were economically and socially united created their own world.
                                              > For the Slovaks the borders have been fairly stable over the nearly 1000 year rule of Hungary. When Hungary joined the Austro-Hungarian Empire this was the first of a major border changes. With the defeat of the Austro-Hungarian Empire came the creation of Czechoslovakia. This brought about major changes to the Slovak border as reparations were made by giving up land. The last border change came with Slovakia becoming an independent country. Per se the borders of Hungary were fairly stable.
                                              > There was an example of a border change in the area of my ancestral village, Hromos, near Stara Lubovna. In the 1700’s the Hungarian king took out a loan from the Polish king. As collateral the Polish king took control over 17 village in Hungary. All in my “neck of the woods”. That control lasted for 150 years. That “occupation” had its affect. My uncle taught my wife a phrase in Slovak. When we went to Slovakia our cousins there said it sounded more like Polish than Slovak.
                                              > In the end, one should not use todays standards to measure how things were done in the past.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > From: mailto:david1law%40aol.com
                                              > Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 9:54 AM
                                              > To: mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com
                                              > Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787
                                              >
                                              > Dear Julie:
                                              >
                                              > Thank you very much for sharing! It is an awesome site for old maps.
                                              > Helene, words "Luna Silva" is Latin words, with "luna" meaning "moon" and
                                              > "silva" meaning "forest." In Latin grammar, adjective usually follow the nouns
                                              > that they modify. So the name would translate as the "Forest Moon"
                                              > mountains, and most likely reflected the fact that the mountains rose above the
                                              > forest and could be seen from the moonlight (particular if they were snow
                                              > covered at the time).
                                              >
                                              > Best regards,
                                              >
                                              > David
                                              >
                                              > In a message dated 2/10/2011 11:18:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                              > mailto:helenezx%40yahoo.com writes:
                                              >
                                              > Hi Julie - Thanks for a really neat site - what super maps
                                              >
                                              > The one i am especially enjoying is of our corner of the world but the
                                              > only
                                              > thing i can identify is the Danube River, this is the map titled Germanic
                                              > -
                                              > Roman Kingdoms 486.
                                              >
                                              > Love the name for the Carpathians - "Luna Silva" - so odd to see what i
                                              > thought
                                              > i knew so well so totally different as to city and place names.
                                              >
                                              > Really appreciate having this connection - thanks!
                                              >
                                              > helene
                                              >
                                              > ________________________________
                                              > From: Julie Michutka <mailto:_jmm%40pathbridge.net_ (mailto:mailto:jmm%40pathbridge.net) >
                                              > To: mailto:_SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com)
                                              > Sent: Thu, February 10, 2011 8:20:31 AM
                                              > Subject: Re: [S-R] Borders 1787
                                              >
                                              > On Feb 8, 2011, at 2:58 PM, spoppclark wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > I was working with Google Earth and an historical map of 1787
                                              > > European countries. The 1787 overlay showed the far northeastern
                                              > > corner of today's Slovakia in the Kingdom of Galicia. This area was
                                              > > part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in the 19th c (Zemplen County)
                                              > > and I'd assumed (dangerous) it was in Zemplen County before that.
                                              >
                                              > Mark Rabideau just posted over on the APG Members list a link to a set
                                              > of 14 maps that he's placed on his website, of "central" Europe over
                                              > the centuries. See
                                              > _http://www.many-roads.com/2009/12/02/central-europe-baltic-region/_
                                              > (http://www.many-roads.com/2009/12/02/central-europe-baltic-region/)
                                              >
                                              > Altho' he calls it central Europe, it includes Poland (which I
                                              > think is actually eastern Europe) and for the most part does not
                                              > include details of the area of Slovakia (then part of Hungary) which
                                              > is central, not Eastern Europe. But the maps look useful for us Slovak
                                              > researchers anyway. And since it covers Poland, that includes the
                                              > area mentioned above.
                                              >
                                              > Hope this site will be of some help.
                                              >
                                              > Julie Michutka
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                                            • Ron
                                              Michael, There are two or three comments I would like to add. 1. Three partitions of Poland took place: * The First Partition: August 5, 1772. * The Second
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Feb 11, 2011
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                                                Michael,

                                                There are two or three comments I would like to add.

                                                1. Three partitions of Poland took place:

                                                * The First Partition: August 5, 1772.
                                                * The Second Partition: January 23, 1793 (in which Austria did not participate).
                                                * The Third Partition: October 24, 1795. With this partition, the independent state of Poland ceased to exist.
                                                My earlier comment that the first partition was in 1782 was wrong.

                                                2. Hungary shared government with Austria since the Hapsburgs first were succeeded as kings of Hungary after king Louis II was killed in the battle of Munhacs, 1526. Southern Hungarian borders varied in the following centuries as the Ottomans held the south of Hungary and raided in the north (which was the incentive to strengthen Spis Castle and many others in central and Northern Hungary), but the northern borders were not in flux.

                                                Thus I must disagree with your statement "When Hungary joined the Austro-Hungarian Empire this was the first of a major border changes." The form of the government of Austria and Hungary changed over time, but they were united from 1526 to 1918, and governed with a fair degree of difference, internal tariffs and constant arguments over fairness between Hungarians and Austrians.

                                                3. You speak of Goral as if it were a single dialect. Given the many dialects of Rusyn, Slovak and German in the valleys of northern Slovakia, I suspect that is an over generalization. But then, I will leave that for linguists willing to split the fine points of difference. We should also keep in mind that Prof. Votruba's Slovak dialect map is a snapshot in time, and that as you pointed out, people were in flux along the border for centuries.

                                                Ron
                                              • Armata, Joseph R
                                                Yes, there are differences among the Goral dialects, but they re only minor differences. Joe
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Feb 11, 2011
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                                                  Yes, there are differences among the Goral dialects, but they're only minor differences.

                                                  Joe


                                                  > 3. You speak of Goral as if it were a single dialect. Given the many
                                                  > dialects of Rusyn, Slovak and German in the valleys of northern
                                                  > Slovakia, I suspect that is an over generalization. But then, I will
                                                  > leave that for linguists willing to split the fine points of
                                                  > difference. We should also keep in mind that Prof. Votruba's Slovak
                                                  > dialect map is a snapshot in time, and that as you pointed out, people
                                                  > were in flux along the border for centuries.
                                                  >
                                                  > Ron
                                                  >
                                                  >
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