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[S-R] Re: Illeg

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  • Deb
    LOL...yes, happens today but the stigma is less!
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 10, 2011
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      LOL...yes, happens today but the stigma is less!


      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, William <wfbrna@...> wrote:
      >
      > On 1/10/2011 9:40 AM, Deb wrote:
      > >
      > > So interesting...it's like you were reading my mind. I, too, have been
      > > going through the films online and have been very surprised at the
      > > number of illegitimate children born. Only rarely is the father noted.
      > >
      > > Was the family "shamed"??? Anyone know how these illeitimate births
      > > were viewed...seemed to be quite a few in the 1850-1890 timeframe
      > > where I've been focusing my search.
      > >
      > > Insights anyone?
      > >
      > > Deb
      > >
      > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>, "tom geiss" <tomfgurka@>
      > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > One of the stange quirks about genealogy is that, whenever an
      > > illegitimate child is born, the name of the father is never mentioned.
      > > > I saw, in viewing films, that my great-grandmother had two children
      > > before she ever got married. She was listed at the same house number
      > > where my grandma and her siblings were born
      > > > She was called "servilis" which , I presume meant that she was a
      > > housemaid? Finally she got married.
      > > > Tom
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > What makes you think that this is not happening today? Not only in
      > Slovakia but also in other countries, such as the US, for example.
      > Besides, when you get down to it, there are no illegitimate babies but,
      > more properly, illegitimate parents.
      >
      > Bill Brna
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • CurtB
      It is not so much the numbers of illeg children born from 1850 to 1890 in Slovak territory, but the percentage of such births viewed as illeg compared to the
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 10, 2011
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        It is not so much the numbers of illeg children born from 1850 to 1890 in Slovak territory, but the percentage of such births viewed as illeg compared to the total number of births. has anyone made such a count for a particular village? I'm starting to do it among many other statistics for two villages. One in Saris another in Zemplin.Not done yet, but it does not seem to exceeed 6 percent, maybe some less. Even among these, a fair number were legitimized later when the parents married. This is likely typical of rural areas of Europe, with urban areas likely a higher rate. Will seek out more historical statistics.
        This does not, of course, take into account the larger likely number of pregnancies before marriage then which resulted in a hasty marriage that was planned anyway or even unanticipated.

        The U.S. commerce department has just released last year's statistics through the statistical abstract of the U.S. In the U.S. the percent of births with parents unmarried compared to total births is 41 percent. That is not a mistype -- 41 percent. Termination of pregnancies was also very uncommon in the 19th century, but accepted today, which makes the statistics even significantly higher today by comparison.

        Curt B.

        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Deb" <dremetta@...> wrote:
        >
        > LOL...yes, happens today but the stigma is less!
        >
        >
        > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, William <wfbrna@> wrote:
        > >
        > > On 1/10/2011 9:40 AM, Deb wrote:
        > > >
        > > > So interesting...it's like you were reading my mind. I, too, have been
        > > > going through the films online and have been very surprised at the
        > > > number of illegitimate children born. Only rarely is the father noted.
        > > >
        > > > Was the family "shamed"??? Anyone know how these illeitimate births
        > > > were viewed...seemed to be quite a few in the 1850-1890 timeframe
        > > > where I've been focusing my search.
        > > >
        > > > Insights anyone?
        > > >
        > > > Deb
        > > >
        > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > > > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>, "tom geiss" <tomfgurka@>
        > > > wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > One of the stange quirks about genealogy is that, whenever an
        > > > illegitimate child is born, the name of the father is never mentioned.
        > > > > I saw, in viewing films, that my great-grandmother had two children
        > > > before she ever got married. She was listed at the same house number
        > > > where my grandma and her siblings were born
        > > > > She was called "servilis" which , I presume meant that she was a
        > > > housemaid? Finally she got married.
        > > > > Tom
        > > > >
        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > What makes you think that this is not happening today? Not only in
        > > Slovakia but also in other countries, such as the US, for example.
        > > Besides, when you get down to it, there are no illegitimate babies but,
        > > more properly, illegitimate parents.
        > >
        > > Bill Brna
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
      • Bill Tarkulich
        Ding ding ding! We have a winner. I ve seen that a lot. Lots of girls were pregnant at the altar in rural, small villages especially in the east. Often
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 10, 2011
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          Ding ding ding! We have a winner. I've seen that a lot. Lots of girls were pregnant at the altar in rural, small villages especially in the east. Often they got married when they were pregnant. You can often figure this out by looking at birth and marriage records. You'll find the child was born less than nine months after the wedding.

          Marriages were usually done for economic reasons - you could not survive without the arrangement and were usually kicked out of the homestead at a young age.

          Some stories and research about "life long ago":

          http://www.saed.kent.edu/~lucak/topica/Grisak.pdf

          http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/traditions.htm

          http://www.iabsi.com/gen/under/index.htm



          Bill


          -----Original Message-----
          From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of helene cincebeaux
          Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 10:10 AM
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Illeg


          ...also back then it seemed like in so many cases young people didn't marry until
          the woman was pregnant.


          these were my observations from experiences traveling there.

          helene
        • Elaine
          I have been reviewing microfilms for the former Polyanocz, Korotnok and Harakoy. I came across a situation that is a different take on the situation of
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 10, 2011
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            I have been reviewing microfilms for the former Polyanocz, Korotnok and Harakoy. I came across a situation that is a different "take" on the situation of illegitimate children.

            In Korotnok (now Korytné), from 1855 through 1864, a woman named Maria Banyás lived in Korotnok No. 1. She bore six illegitimate children, with no father listed. (I have not ordered the 1869 census to discover a listing--yet!) She was listed as inquilinus.

            Each time, one of the godparents was a Jablonovszky (sometimes male, sometimes female) and almost always, the other was a Novak.

            Any speculation on these circumstances?

            Elaine


            Sent from my iPhone

            On Jan 10, 2011, at 10:39 AM, "nilo3rak" <piekielnik@...> wrote:

            > Helen,
            > "Free mother" that has a nice ring to it, much better than the illegitimate label. However, that was the legal and church appellation.
            >
            > It's the same old stuff - tomorrow I may die - deny me nothing. Then the women are left to fend for themselves.
            > Carolyn
            >
            > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, helene cincebeaux <helenezx@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Deb - i was told that when the young men were taken into military service for
            > > 2 years at age 18 - the year before that they were denied nothing. They got new
            > > clothes and partied.
            > >
            > > They couldn't go to service married so that's why so many marriages were alter
            > > legitimatized - God help the poor girl whose boyfriend never came back or who
            > > found another.
            > >
            > > i recall in the 70s when i learned a good friend's mother was a "free mother" -
            > > in other words she had the child but never married - it seemed to be OK.
            > >
            > > also back then it seemed like in so many cases young people didn't marry until
            > > the woman was pregnant.
            > >
            > >
            > > Â Â these were my observations from experiences traveling there.
            > >
            > > helene
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ________________________________
            > > From: Deb <dremetta@...>
            > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 9:40:46 AM
            > > Subject: [S-R] Re: Illeg
            > >
            > > Â
            > > So interesting...it's like you were reading my mind. I, too, have been going
            > > through the films online and have been very surprised at the number of
            > > illegitimate children born. Only rarely is the father noted.
            > >
            > > Was the family "shamed"??? Anyone know how these illeitimate births were
            > > viewed...seemed to be quite a few in the 1850-1890 timeframe where I've been
            > > focusing my search.
            > >
            > > Insights anyone?
            > >
            > > Deb
            > >
            > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "tom geiss" <tomfgurka@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > One of the stange quirks about genealogy is that, whenever an illegitimate
            > > >child is born, the name of the father is never mentioned.
            > > > I saw, in viewing films, that my great-grandmother had two children before she
            > > >ever got married. She was listed at the same house number where my grandma and
            > > >her siblings were born
            > > > She was called "servilis" which , I presume meant that she was a housemaid?
            > > >Finally she got married.
            > > > Tom
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • CurtB
            Elaine, While not with great frequency, this is found in many different church registers. It usually means that some man or woman has settled in, but not
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 10, 2011
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              Elaine,
              While not with great frequency, this is found in many different church registers. It usually means that some man or woman has settled in, but not actually married. What we would call common law marriage. It does not seem to have upset the community, so neighbors and friends serve as baptismal sponsors.

              Curt B.

              --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Elaine <epowell@...> wrote:
              >
              > I have been reviewing microfilms for the former Polyanocz, Korotnok and Harakoy. I came across a situation that is a different "take" on the situation of illegitimate children.
              >
              > In Korotnok (now Korytné), from 1855 through 1864, a woman named Maria Banyás lived in Korotnok No. 1. She bore six illegitimate children, with no father listed. (I have not ordered the 1869 census to discover a listing--yet!) She was listed as inquilinus.
              >
              > Each time, one of the godparents was a Jablonovszky (sometimes male, sometimes female) and almost always, the other was a Novak.
              >
              > Any speculation on these circumstances?
              >
              > Elaine
              >
              >
              > Sent from my iPhone
              >
              > On Jan 10, 2011, at 10:39 AM, "nilo3rak" <piekielnik@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Helen,
              > > "Free mother" that has a nice ring to it, much better than the illegitimate label. However, that was the legal and church appellation.
              > >
              > > It's the same old stuff - tomorrow I may die - deny me nothing. Then the women are left to fend for themselves.
              > > Carolyn
              > >
              > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, helene cincebeaux <helenezx@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hi Deb - i was told that when the young men were taken into military service for
              > > > 2 years at age 18 - the year before that they were denied nothing. They got new
              > > > clothes and partied.
              > > >
              > > > They couldn't go to service married so that's why so many marriages were alter
              > > > legitimatized - God help the poor girl whose boyfriend never came back or who
              > > > found another.
              > > >
              > > > i recall in the 70s when i learned a good friend's mother was a "free mother" -
              > > > in other words she had the child but never married - it seemed to be OK.
              > > >
              > > > also back then it seemed like in so many cases young people didn't marry until
              > > > the woman was pregnant.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Â Â these were my observations from experiences traveling there.
              > > >
              > > > helene
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ________________________________
              > > > From: Deb <dremetta@>
              > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 9:40:46 AM
              > > > Subject: [S-R] Re: Illeg
              > > >
              > > > Â
              > > > So interesting...it's like you were reading my mind. I, too, have been going
              > > > through the films online and have been very surprised at the number of
              > > > illegitimate children born. Only rarely is the father noted.
              > > >
              > > > Was the family "shamed"??? Anyone know how these illeitimate births were
              > > > viewed...seemed to be quite a few in the 1850-1890 timeframe where I've been
              > > > focusing my search.
              > > >
              > > > Insights anyone?
              > > >
              > > > Deb
              > > >
              > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "tom geiss" <tomfgurka@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > One of the stange quirks about genealogy is that, whenever an illegitimate
              > > > >child is born, the name of the father is never mentioned.
              > > > > I saw, in viewing films, that my great-grandmother had two children before she
              > > > >ever got married. She was listed at the same house number where my grandma and
              > > > >her siblings were born
              > > > > She was called "servilis" which , I presume meant that she was a housemaid?
              > > > >Finally she got married.
              > > > > Tom
              > > > >
              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Elaine
              Thanks, Curt. And here I was imagining that Maria had captured the heart of a noble man whose noble wife could not have children....! I ve seen too many
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 10, 2011
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                Thanks, Curt. And here I was imagining that Maria had captured the heart of a noble man whose noble wife could not have children....! I've seen too many movies!

                Elaine

                Sent from my iPhone

                On Jan 10, 2011, at 9:27 PM, "CurtB" <curt67boc@...> wrote:

                > Elaine,
                > While not with great frequency, this is found in many different church registers. It usually means that some man or woman has settled in, but not actually married. What we would call common law marriage. It does not seem to have upset the community, so neighbors and friends serve as baptismal sponsors.
                >
                > Curt B.
                >
                > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Elaine <epowell@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > I have been reviewing microfilms for the former Polyanocz, Korotnok and Harakoy. I came across a situation that is a different "take" on the situation of illegitimate children.
                > >
                > > In Korotnok (now Korytné), from 1855 through 1864, a woman named Maria Banyás lived in Korotnok No. 1. She bore six illegitimate children, with no father listed. (I have not ordered the 1869 census to discover a listing--yet!) She was listed as inquilinus.
                > >
                > > Each time, one of the godparents was a Jablonovszky (sometimes male, sometimes female) and almost always, the other was a Novak.
                > >
                > > Any speculation on these circumstances?
                > >
                > > Elaine
                > >
                > >
                > > Sent from my iPhone
                > >
                > > On Jan 10, 2011, at 10:39 AM, "nilo3rak" <piekielnik@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > > Helen,
                > > > "Free mother" that has a nice ring to it, much better than the illegitimate label. However, that was the legal and church appellation.
                > > >
                > > > It's the same old stuff - tomorrow I may die - deny me nothing. Then the women are left to fend for themselves.
                > > > Carolyn
                > > >
                > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, helene cincebeaux <helenezx@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Hi Deb - i was told that when the young men were taken into military service for
                > > > > 2 years at age 18 - the year before that they were denied nothing. They got new
                > > > > clothes and partied.
                > > > >
                > > > > They couldn't go to service married so that's why so many marriages were alter
                > > > > legitimatized - God help the poor girl whose boyfriend never came back or who
                > > > > found another.
                > > > >
                > > > > i recall in the 70s when i learned a good friend's mother was a "free mother" -
                > > > > in other words she had the child but never married - it seemed to be OK.
                > > > >
                > > > > also back then it seemed like in so many cases young people didn't marry until
                > > > > the woman was pregnant.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Â Â these were my observations from experiences traveling there.
                > > > >
                > > > > helene
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > ________________________________
                > > > > From: Deb <dremetta@>
                > > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 9:40:46 AM
                > > > > Subject: [S-R] Re: Illeg
                > > > >
                > > > > Â
                > > > > So interesting...it's like you were reading my mind. I, too, have been going
                > > > > through the films online and have been very surprised at the number of
                > > > > illegitimate children born. Only rarely is the father noted.
                > > > >
                > > > > Was the family "shamed"??? Anyone know how these illeitimate births were
                > > > > viewed...seemed to be quite a few in the 1850-1890 timeframe where I've been
                > > > > focusing my search.
                > > > >
                > > > > Insights anyone?
                > > > >
                > > > > Deb
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "tom geiss" <tomfgurka@> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > One of the stange quirks about genealogy is that, whenever an illegitimate
                > > > > >child is born, the name of the father is never mentioned.
                > > > > > I saw, in viewing films, that my great-grandmother had two children before she
                > > > > >ever got married. She was listed at the same house number where my grandma and
                > > > > >her siblings were born
                > > > > > She was called "servilis" which , I presume meant that she was a housemaid?
                > > > > >Finally she got married.
                > > > > > Tom
                > > > > >
                > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • helene cincebeaux
                hi Deb - So many people told me that their immigrant ancestors are gone and there is no one to ask questions about life long ago - a major reason why i wrote
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 11, 2011
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                  hi Deb - So many people told me that their immigrant ancestors are gone and
                  there is no one to ask questions about life long ago - a major reason why i
                  wrote the book.
                  it follows the seasons of the year with all the special celebrations and events
                  from Lenten celebration to hog killing and Christmas and includes life events
                  like birth/baptism, marriage and death. Spent many years going from village to
                  village and asking questions - didn't know i was going to write a book - but it
                  was so fascinating and people loved telling us. It's a time that has gone by but
                  i am so glad i was there to record it. Slovakia is such a special place as there
                  still are a few chances and places to see and experience life a lot like it was
                  long ago. So many artists agreed to using their wonderful depictions of
                  life back then - helps to bring it all to life. And i wanted color illustrations
                  and joy on every page - just like Slovakia!My book honors all those beautiful
                  people who opened their hearts and their homes to my mother and me for 40
                  years beginning in 1969. Let me know how you like it... helene


                  ________________________________
                  From: Deb <dremetta@...>
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 12:37:19 PM
                  Subject: [S-R] Re: Illeg

                   
                  Wow, Helene, guess that would answer it! Yes, God help the girl!

                  BTW, I just ordered "Slovakia! Traditions Old & New". I'm hoping that can help
                  with understanding what life was like for my ancestors. Anyone in my family who
                  could have told stories of the "old country" is long gone!

                  Thanks for the insight!
                  Deb

                  --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, helene cincebeaux <helenezx@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Deb - i was told that when the young men were taken into military service
                  >for
                  >
                  > 2 years at age 18 - the year before that they were denied nothing. They got new
                  >
                  > clothes and partied.
                  >
                  > They couldn't go to service married so that's why so many marriages were alter

                  > legitimatized - God help the poor girl whose boyfriend never came back or who
                  > found another.
                  >
                  > i recall in the 70s when i learned a good friend's mother was a "free
                  >mother" -
                  >
                  > in other words she had the child but never married - it seemed to be OK.
                  >
                  > also back then it seemed like in so many cases young people didn't marry until

                  > the woman was pregnant.
                  >
                  >
                  >   these were my observations from experiences traveling there.
                  >
                  > helene
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Deb <dremetta@...>
                  > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 9:40:46 AM
                  > Subject: [S-R] Re: Illeg
                  >
                  >  
                  > So interesting...it's like you were reading my mind. I, too, have been going
                  > through the films online and have been very surprised at the number of
                  > illegitimate children born. Only rarely is the father noted.
                  >
                  > Was the family "shamed"??? Anyone know how these illeitimate births were
                  > viewed...seemed to be quite a few in the 1850-1890 timeframe where I've been
                  > focusing my search.
                  >
                  > Insights anyone?
                  >
                  > Deb
                  >
                  > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "tom geiss" <tomfgurka@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > One of the stange quirks about genealogy is that, whenever an illegitimate
                  > >child is born, the name of the father is never mentioned.
                  > > I saw, in viewing films, that my great-grandmother had two children before
                  >she
                  >
                  > >ever got married. She was listed at the same house number where my grandma and
                  >
                  > >her siblings were born
                  > > She was called "servilis" which , I presume meant that she was a housemaid?
                  > >Finally she got married.
                  > > Tom
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jim Gura
                  Helene, What book did you publish. We still do the traditions during Christmas & Easter that I grew up with. I would love to obtain one. We still make the
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 11, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Helene,
                    What book did you publish. We still do the traditions during Christmas & Easter that I grew up with. I would love to obtain one. We still make the Kolache's, Harotka (Eggs, Sugar & Milk), Paska (an Easter Bread) etc. I have a book called "The Slovak Americans".
                    Were you aware that a Father Jozef Murgas was the first to invent wireless telegraphy? He transmitted the first wireless
                    signals between Wilkes-Barre & Scranton, PA in 1905 & between Wilkes-Barre & Brooklyn, NY. Marconi used some of his findings and claimed to have invented wireless telegraphy. In 1920 Murgas sued Marconi for patent violations. After long drawn-out proceedings Murgas won his case.

                    Jim

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: helene cincebeaux
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 8:50 AM
                    Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Slovak Traditions Book



                    hi Deb - So many people told me that their immigrant ancestors are gone and
                    there is no one to ask questions about life long ago - a major reason why i
                    wrote the book.
                    it follows the seasons of the year with all the special celebrations and events
                    from Lenten celebration to hog killing and Christmas and includes life events
                    like birth/baptism, marriage and death. Spent many years going from village to
                    village and asking questions - didn't know i was going to write a book - but it
                    was so fascinating and people loved telling us. It's a time that has gone by but
                    i am so glad i was there to record it. Slovakia is such a special place as there
                    still are a few chances and places to see and experience life a lot like it was
                    long ago. So many artists agreed to using their wonderful depictions of
                    life back then - helps to bring it all to life. And i wanted color illustrations
                    and joy on every page - just like Slovakia!My book honors all those beautiful
                    people who opened their hearts and their homes to my mother and me for 40
                    years beginning in 1969. Let me know how you like it... helene

                    ________________________________
                    From: Deb <dremetta@...>
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 12:37:19 PM
                    Subject: [S-R] Re: Illeg


                    Wow, Helene, guess that would answer it! Yes, God help the girl!

                    BTW, I just ordered "Slovakia! Traditions Old & New". I'm hoping that can help
                    with understanding what life was like for my ancestors. Anyone in my family who
                    could have told stories of the "old country" is long gone!

                    Thanks for the insight!
                    Deb

                    --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, helene cincebeaux <helenezx@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Deb - i was told that when the young men were taken into military service
                    >for
                    >
                    > 2 years at age 18 - the year before that they were denied nothing. They got new
                    >
                    > clothes and partied.
                    >
                    > They couldn't go to service married so that's why so many marriages were alter

                    > legitimatized - God help the poor girl whose boyfriend never came back or who
                    > found another.
                    >
                    > i recall in the 70s when i learned a good friend's mother was a "free
                    >mother"Â -
                    >
                    > in other words she had the child but never married - it seemed to be OK.
                    >
                    > also back then it seemed like in so many cases young people didn't marry until

                    > the woman was pregnant.
                    >
                    >
                    > Â Â these were my observations from experiences traveling there.
                    >
                    > helene
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: Deb <dremetta@...>
                    > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 9:40:46 AM
                    > Subject: [S-R] Re: Illeg
                    >
                    > Â
                    > So interesting...it's like you were reading my mind. I, too, have been going
                    > through the films online and have been very surprised at the number of
                    > illegitimate children born. Only rarely is the father noted.
                    >
                    > Was the family "shamed"??? Anyone know how these illeitimate births were
                    > viewed...seemed to be quite a few in the 1850-1890 timeframe where I've been
                    > focusing my search.
                    >
                    > Insights anyone?
                    >
                    > Deb
                    >
                    > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "tom geiss" <tomfgurka@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > One of the stange quirks about genealogy is that, whenever an illegitimate
                    > >child is born, the name of the father is never mentioned.
                    > > I saw, in viewing films, that my great-grandmother had two children before
                    >she
                    >
                    > >ever got married. She was listed at the same house number where my grandma and
                    >
                    > >her siblings were born
                    > > She was called "servilis" which , I presume meant that she was a housemaid?
                    > >Finally she got married.
                    > > Tom
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • helene cincebeaux
                    hi Jim, How wonderful that you and your family keep the old traditions alive! My new book is called Slovakia: Traditions Old & New - 172 pages all in color
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 11, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      hi Jim,

                      How wonderful that you and your family keep the old traditions alive!

                      My new book is called "Slovakia: Traditions Old & New" - 172 pages all in color
                      with many photos, paintings and art works bringing those log-ago days to life -
                      e mail me direct at helenezx@... if you'd like more info. or check out
                      www.our-Slovakia.com and click on the upper left corner where it says SH&FSI.

                      My magazine "Slovakia" recently published an article about Rev. Jozef Murgas - i
                      couldn't believe what an amazing  Renaissance man he was - incredibly
                      multi-talented but then i have found Slovaks to generally be like that - able to
                      build their own home and paint pictures, or make music and repair Skodas.

                      helene




                      ________________________________
                      From: Jim Gura <jag8359@...>
                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 6:13:32 PM
                      Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Slovak Traditions Book

                       
                      Helene,
                      What book did you publish. We still do the traditions during Christmas & Easter
                      that I grew up with. I would love to obtain one. We still make the Kolache's,
                      Harotka (Eggs, Sugar & Milk), Paska (an Easter Bread) etc. I have a book called
                      "The Slovak Americans".

                      Were you aware that a Father Jozef Murgas was the first to invent wireless
                      telegraphy? He transmitted the first wireless

                      signals between Wilkes-Barre & Scranton, PA in 1905 & between Wilkes-Barre &
                      Brooklyn, NY. Marconi used some of his findings and claimed to have invented
                      wireless telegraphy. In 1920 Murgas sued Marconi for patent violations. After
                      long drawn-out proceedings Murgas won his case.

                      Jim

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: helene cincebeaux
                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 8:50 AM
                      Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Slovak Traditions Book

                      hi Deb - So many people told me that their immigrant ancestors are gone and
                      there is no one to ask questions about life long ago - a major reason why i
                      wrote the book.
                      it follows the seasons of the year with all the special celebrations and events
                      from Lenten celebration to hog killing and Christmas and includes life events
                      like birth/baptism, marriage and death. Spent many years going from village to
                      village and asking questions - didn't know i was going to write a book - but it
                      was so fascinating and people loved telling us. It's a time that has gone by but

                      i am so glad i was there to record it. Slovakia is such a special place as there

                      still are a few chances and places to see and experience life a lot like it was
                      long ago. So many artists agreed to using their wonderful depictions of
                      life back then - helps to bring it all to life. And i wanted color illustrations

                      and joy on every page - just like Slovakia!My book honors all those beautiful
                      people who opened their hearts and their homes to my mother and me for 40
                      years beginning in 1969. Let me know how you like it... helene

                      ________________________________
                      From: Deb <dremetta@...>
                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 12:37:19 PM
                      Subject: [S-R] Re: Illeg

                      Wow, Helene, guess that would answer it! Yes, God help the girl!

                      BTW, I just ordered "Slovakia! Traditions Old & New". I'm hoping that can help
                      with understanding what life was like for my ancestors. Anyone in my family who
                      could have told stories of the "old country" is long gone!

                      Thanks for the insight!
                      Deb

                      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, helene cincebeaux <helenezx@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Deb - i was told that when the young men were taken into military service
                      >for
                      >
                      > 2 years at age 18 - the year before that they were denied nothing. They got new
                      >
                      >
                      > clothes and partied.
                      >
                      > They couldn't go to service married so that's why so many marriages were alter


                      > legitimatized - God help the poor girl whose boyfriend never came back or who
                      > found another.
                      >
                      > i recall in the 70s when i learned a good friend's mother was a "free
                      >mother"Â -
                      >
                      > in other words she had the child but never married - it seemed to be OK.
                      >
                      > also back then it seemed like in so many cases young people didn't marry until


                      > the woman was pregnant.
                      >
                      >
                      > Â Â these were my observations from experiences traveling there.
                      >
                      > helene
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: Deb <dremetta@...>
                      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 9:40:46 AM
                      > Subject: [S-R] Re: Illeg
                      >
                      > Â
                      > So interesting...it's like you were reading my mind. I, too, have been going
                      > through the films online and have been very surprised at the number of
                      > illegitimate children born. Only rarely is the father noted.
                      >
                      > Was the family "shamed"??? Anyone know how these illeitimate births were
                      > viewed...seemed to be quite a few in the 1850-1890 timeframe where I've been
                      > focusing my search.
                      >
                      > Insights anyone?
                      >
                      > Deb
                      >
                      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "tom geiss" <tomfgurka@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > One of the stange quirks about genealogy is that, whenever an illegitimate
                      > >child is born, the name of the father is never mentioned.
                      > > I saw, in viewing films, that my great-grandmother had two children before
                      >she
                      >
                      > >ever got married. She was listed at the same house number where my grandma and
                      >
                      >
                      > >her siblings were born
                      > > She was called "servilis" which , I presume meant that she was a housemaid?
                      > >Finally she got married.
                      > > Tom
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Evelyn Marsh
                      Deb, My grandmother had 3 illegitimate children in Slovakia before coming to the US. From what I understand, the family were not too happy about it. They
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 12, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Deb,
                        My grandmother had 3 illegitimate children in Slovakia before coming to the US. From what I understand, the family were not too happy about it. They wanted her to leave - through my research, I discovered that child #3 was a girl and she died at 3 1/2 years in Jan. - grandmother left in Nov the same year with son #2 - son #1 came to US 4 years later. She went to her younger married sister in CT and proceeded to have 2 more illegitimate children - according to my mother, her mother-in-law did not want to be married - she did not want a husband telling her how to raise her children - but wanted children that she supported by herself by taking in roomers, babysitting and doing ironing etc. She raised as much food as she could and they went to work when they were young to help in the support. Makes for interesting conversations. Some of my family really are upset about this part of our heritage. I find all the discussions on this topic on this site very interesting.
                        Evelyn




                        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        From: dremetta@...
                        Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 17:34:17 +0000
                        Subject: [S-R] Re: Illeg






                        LOL...yes, happens today but the stigma is less!

                        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, William <wfbrna@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > On 1/10/2011 9:40 AM, Deb wrote:
                        > >
                        > > So interesting...it's like you were reading my mind. I, too, have been
                        > > going through the films online and have been very surprised at the
                        > > number of illegitimate children born. Only rarely is the father noted.
                        > >
                        > > Was the family "shamed"??? Anyone know how these illeitimate births
                        > > were viewed...seemed to be quite a few in the 1850-1890 timeframe
                        > > where I've been focusing my search.
                        > >
                        > > Insights anyone?
                        > >
                        > > Deb
                        > >
                        > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        > > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>, "tom geiss" <tomfgurka@>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > One of the stange quirks about genealogy is that, whenever an
                        > > illegitimate child is born, the name of the father is never mentioned.
                        > > > I saw, in viewing films, that my great-grandmother had two children
                        > > before she ever got married. She was listed at the same house number
                        > > where my grandma and her siblings were born
                        > > > She was called "servilis" which , I presume meant that she was a
                        > > housemaid? Finally she got married.
                        > > > Tom
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > What makes you think that this is not happening today? Not only in
                        > Slovakia but also in other countries, such as the US, for example.
                        > Besides, when you get down to it, there are no illegitimate babies but,
                        > more properly, illegitimate parents.
                        >
                        > Bill Brna
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • nilo3rak
                        A woman ahead of her time. More of our time, you think? Carolyn
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 12, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          A woman ahead of her time.

                          More of our time, you think?
                          Carolyn

                          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Evelyn Marsh <evelynmarsh@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Deb,
                          > My grandmother had 3 illegitimate children in Slovakia before coming to the US. From what I understand, the family were not too happy about it. They wanted her to leave - through my research, I discovered that child #3 was a girl and she died at 3 1/2 years in Jan. - grandmother left in Nov the same year with son #2 - son #1 came to US 4 years later. She went to her younger married sister in CT and proceeded to have 2 more illegitimate children - according to my mother, her mother-in-law did not want to be married - she did not want a husband telling her how to raise her children - but wanted children that she supported by herself by taking in roomers, babysitting and doing ironing etc. She raised as much food as she could and they went to work when they were young to help in the support. Makes for interesting conversations. Some of my family really are upset about this part of our heritage. I find all the discussions on this topic on this site very interesting.
                          > Evelyn
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          > From: dremetta@...
                          > Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 17:34:17 +0000
                          > Subject: [S-R] Re: Illeg
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > LOL...yes, happens today but the stigma is less!
                          >
                          > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, William <wfbrna@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > On 1/10/2011 9:40 AM, Deb wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > So interesting...it's like you were reading my mind. I, too, have been
                          > > > going through the films online and have been very surprised at the
                          > > > number of illegitimate children born. Only rarely is the father noted.
                          > > >
                          > > > Was the family "shamed"??? Anyone know how these illeitimate births
                          > > > were viewed...seemed to be quite a few in the 1850-1890 timeframe
                          > > > where I've been focusing my search.
                          > > >
                          > > > Insights anyone?
                          > > >
                          > > > Deb
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>, "tom geiss" <tomfgurka@>
                          > > > wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > One of the stange quirks about genealogy is that, whenever an
                          > > > illegitimate child is born, the name of the father is never mentioned.
                          > > > > I saw, in viewing films, that my great-grandmother had two children
                          > > > before she ever got married. She was listed at the same house number
                          > > > where my grandma and her siblings were born
                          > > > > She was called "servilis" which , I presume meant that she was a
                          > > > housemaid? Finally she got married.
                          > > > > Tom
                          > > > >
                          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > What makes you think that this is not happening today? Not only in
                          > > Slovakia but also in other countries, such as the US, for example.
                          > > Besides, when you get down to it, there are no illegitimate babies but,
                          > > more properly, illegitimate parents.
                          > >
                          > > Bill Brna
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • helene cincebeaux
                          hi - can someone tell me what regional archive the records for Trstena (ORAVA) are in?  in Banska Bystrica? helene ________________________________ [Non-text
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jan 12, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            hi - can someone tell me what regional archive the records for Trstena (ORAVA)
                            are in?  in Banska Bystrica?

                            helene




                            ________________________________




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Michael Mojher
                            State Regional Archives in Bytca 014 35 Bytca, kastiel Telephone: 00421 821 / 55 333 11 Fax: 00 421 821 / 553 36 22 Trstena 1853 – 1922 Orava County 1876 -
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jan 12, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              State Regional Archives in Bytca
                              014 35 Bytca, kastiel
                              Telephone: 00421 821 / 55 333 11
                              Fax: 00 421 821 / 553 36 22

                              Trstena 1853 – 1922
                              Orava County 1876 - 1919

                              From: helene cincebeaux
                              Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 6:17 PM
                              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [S-R] Trstena records in Banska Bystrica regional archive?


                              hi - can someone tell me what regional archive the records for Trstena (ORAVA)
                              are in? in Banska Bystrica?

                              helene

                              ________________________________

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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