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Re: [S-R] Re: Entering Surnames on FTM

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  • lkocik@comcast.net
    Ron  Your reply certainly did raise more questions and thank you for that...  There s been a lot of great replies but your analogy of blacks in America to
    Message 1 of 41 , Jan 3, 2011
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      Ron

       Your reply certainly did raise more questions and thank you for that...

       There's been a lot of great replies but your analogy of blacks in America to Slovaks in the Hungarian Kingdom, is perfectly simply. Bill's explanation of ethnicity/nationalism helped me understand also.

       On a lighter note....along with my ancestors listing origins as Hungarian, Austrian, Moravian, and Slovak, I noticed on some early censuses in New York they listed their origin as "Slovakland". Maybe "Slovakland" is a good non-commital way to cover all of them. That's just an attempt at humor.

       Thank you again Ron, Bill, and Michael for your insightful replies....I intend to go back and ponder them all.

      Larry Kocik

      a.k.a. Kocich----- Original Message -----
      From: "Ron" <amiak27@...>
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, January 3, 2011 3:37:50 PM
      Subject: [S-R] Re: Entering Surnames on FTM

      I am not a Michael but will offer another voice, and I expect most of what I say will be similar to other responses. However, I had one set of grandparents who came and stayed in the US and another set who came, saved enough to buy a farm in the Old Country (Hungary, today Slovakia) and returned. Their return was on the very eve of WW I, so I have to believe that even as an ethnic Rusyn citizen of Hungary, he was a patriotic citizen. Living conditions in America might have had something to do with the decision, though some brothers and sisters stayed in the USA, and a strike at the Auburn Rope works around 1913 with several strikers murdered might have helped determine his decision.

      If you can accept that blacks in the US have served honorably in the US armed services throughout our history, through the darkest days of discrimination, then you should be able to accept that our Slovak and Rusyn ancestors were able to do the same.  In part, perhaps, because they knew no better life, as someone growing up in remote Appalachia today might know no "better" life that most of us enjoy with electricity and indoor plumbing.  

      In the written histories Slovakia was never a separate principality or distinct region of Hungary. Hungary was organized in Counties without regard to ethnicity of residents.  In fact, the concept of nations based on ethnic affiliation is a rather new concept that developed only in the last few hundred years. Literacy in Europe came rather late, say in the last 400 years, and was facilitated by translations of the Protestant Revolution and translation of the bible
      into local languages. Until then the paintings and stained glass windows and statues were not for idolatry, but for telling the stories of saints and Christianity.  Today many depend on the word only, a bit meager source. Lutheran Slovaks adapted the existing Czech bible, while Catholics and Anton Bernolák started to codify a distinct Slovak language in the late 1700's (associate it with our revolution). It was not until the next century (1840's?) that Ľudovít Štúr developed what was finally adapted as standard Slovak.  

      It was about that time that Hungarians became very aware of their minority status within Hungary, and started their various programs to Magyarize other ethnic groups.  Since most of what we read and most of our grandparent's memories come out of this period, it seems that Magyarization programs existed forever.  

      I have noticed a vast improvement in the quality and balance of histories written in Hungary since the fall of communism.  Earlier histories are quite ... romanticized to say the least.  Old histories will sometimes even have references to "so-called Slovaks", to give one indication.

      An ethnic identity for Slovaks and for Rusyns was developed over many decades of efforts by the intellectuals in our midst. The common people often seemed to be happy saying "I am, and that is all that matters (not the name Slovak or Rusyn)."  Even the terms we use today have undergone great changes and fashion, and at times hot debate that continues today. Personally I was not really sure what old "Slavish" meant until I downloaded "Slovak (Slavish) Self-Taught" by S. Moravek (1917) from Google Books.  

      Well, that is a partial answer. Does it raise more questions than it answers?  Welcome to the club!

      Ron

      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, lkocik@... wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > Michael
      >
      >  During the centuries that Slovakia was ruled by the Hungarian Kingdom
      > did  the people consider themselves Slovak? Did the world recognize Slovakia as a country, but under the rule of Hungary?
      >
      >  I ask because it seems almost disrespectful to refer to my ancestors as Hungarian when the ones I remember despied their Hungarian oppressors and had an intense pride in having a Slovak lineage.  I do realize the answer can't be based on emotion or what people considered themselves .
      >
      >  What I need to ask also  is; is there any validity in entering Slovakia when transscribing the older records?  From: "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@...>
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, January 3, 2011 11:15:58 AM
      > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Entering Surnames on FTM
      >
      > Nancy,
      >     During the period of written records the land of present day Slovakia was ruled by the Hungary for the 900’s until 1867. Then it was Austro-Hungary until 1918. That when it became Czechoslovakia. Finally, 1993 it became Slovakia. For your records anything before 1867 should be list as Hungary. From 1867 to 1918 Austro-Hungarian, 1918 to 1993 Czechoslovakia and 1993 on as Slovakia. You can footnote somewhere that the village is now in Slovakia. But I would not put Slovakia in a the place unless it is after 1993.
      >
      > From: Nancy Gibbs
      > Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 5:23 AM
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Entering Surnames on FTM
      >
      >   
      > I was advised to record the information as to where I found it so future
      > researchers could go to the place where I found it. So I have put Slovakia on
      > all my findings. Please, somebody correct me if I am wrong; this is the feeling
      > I am getting from all the responses.
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: haluska <mailto:ddhalusker%40yahoo.com>
      > To: mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Fri, December 31, 2010 10:30:27 PM
      > Subject: [S-R] Re: Entering Surnames on FTM
      >
      > I am with Michael.Enter it as found. Stay with the place name of the time. I
      > have Births in Austria-Hungary,Marriages in Czechoslovakia and Deaths in The
      > Slovak Republic entered into my Database for example.
      >
      > --- In mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com, "hyperlexiadaddy" <cowboyhat@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi
      > > I'm listing US birth certificate names like this:
      > >
      > > John Reginald SMITH
      > >
      > > (how do I get the capital A with the accent mark on
      > > the Slovak visual keyboard?)
      > >
      > > I'm going to be adding folks born
      > > in Slovakia, Czechoslovakia, Austria-Hungary,
      > > and Galicia.
      > >
      > > Shall I enter the Slovak
      > > or Hungarian spelling of the surname?
      > >
      > > Shall I list the birth country as it was at time of
      > > birth?
      > >
      > > Thanks
      > > Dave
      > >
      >
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    • John
      When I was looking at Google Earth, I observed an enclave at the southeast edge of town -- but somewhat separate. Google Earth does not provide a good image. I
      Message 41 of 41 , Jan 6, 2011
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        When I was looking at Google Earth, I observed an enclave at the southeast edge of town -- but somewhat separate. Google Earth does not provide a good image. I wonder if this might be the Kishegy area. It's just a thought.

        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Nancy Gibbs <bohnenstiehl1952@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thanks for the information. It sure can get confusing but I am grateful for the
        > help this group has given me. On to making my records accurate.
        > Nancy
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: CurtB <curt67boc@...>
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Thu, January 6, 2011 12:20:57 AM
        > Subject: [S-R] Re: Entering Surnames on FTM
        >
        >
        > Nancy,
        > Thanks for posting the reference. Both Harsag and Kishegy were outlying parts
        > of northeast Petrovany. Kishegy more likely just a large farm. They never had
        > independent village existence and today are just included in Petrovany. The
        > priest is being meticulous in observing all the local distinctions at the time.
        >
        > As to relationship to Mocarmany someone suggested, the section of the register
        > referred to was the marriage register. So married couples each require the
        > place of habitiation. Two people from Mocarmany married individuals from
        > Kishegy. But so did people from Petrovany.
        >
        > Mocarmany has survived as a place today south of Petrovany but just barely.
        > Petrovany runs right into Mocarmany.
        >
        > So, when it comes to entering something into your records, since the register
        > says Kishegy, I suppose that is what to use, but would require the note which
        > says a non-village designation, now part of Petrovany.
        >
        > Best,
        > Curt B.
        >
        > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Nancy Gibbs <bohnenstiehl1952@> wrote:
        > >
        > > The birth record I referred to is found at Slovakia Place Names, Petrovany,
        > > Roman Catholic, #831, page 10, number 19 Janos, parents Sztraka, Gabor and
        > > Varga, Maria. Thanks for the help.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ________________________________
        > > From: CurtB <curt67boc@>
        > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Wed, January 5, 2011 2:18:19 PM
        > > Subject: [S-R] Re: Entering Surnames on FTM
        > >
        > >
        > > Nancy,
        > > I am familiar with the Petrovany records. Petrovany church also served the
        > > villages of Harsag and Mocsarmany, but not Kishegy which is a long ways away in
        > >
        > > Hungary. However in some Petrovany records the pastor will record the place of
        > >
        > > birth of a parent! not born in Petrovany, Harsag or Mocsarmany. That may be
        > > the case in your instance.
        > >
        > >
        > > Since the Petrovany records are online, why don't you post an exact reference
        > >so
        > >
        > > we can take a look at the record.
        > >
        > > Curt B.
        > >
        > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Nancy Gibbs <bohnenstiehl1952@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I understand now about the place names of the countries. Now I have a
        > >question
        > >
        > > >
        > > > about the village. i.e. I found a birth record in the Petrovany records but
        > >
        > > > the location & house number listed is Kishegy (sp?). Do I list Petrovany or
        >
        > > > Kishegy? I sure have a lot of corrections to do--thanks--at least I now know
        > >
        > > > it'll be accurate.
        > > > Nancy
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ________________________________
        > > > From: Michael Mojher <mgmojher@>
        > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Sent: Mon, January 3, 2011 12:15:58 PM
        > > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Entering Surnames on FTM
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Nancy,
        > > > During the period of written records the land of present day Slovakia was
        > >ruled
        > >
        > > >
        > > > by the Hungary for the 900’s until 1867. Then it was Austro-Hungary
        > >until
        > >
        > > >1918.
        > > >
        > > > That when it became Czechoslovakia. Finally, 1993 it became Slovakia. For
        > >your
        > >
        > >
        > > > records anything before 1867 should be list as Hungary. From 1867 to 1918
        > > > Austro-Hungarian, 1918 to 1993 Czechoslovakia and 1993 on as Slovakia. You
        > >can
        > >
        > >
        > > > footnote somewhere that the village is now in Slovakia. But I would not put
        > > > Slovakia in a the place unless it is after 1993.
        > > >
        > > > From: Nancy Gibbs
        > > > Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 5:23 AM
        > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Entering Surnames on FTM
        > > >
        > > > I was advised to record the information as to where I found it so future
        > > > researchers could go to the place where I found it. So I have put Slovakia on
        > >
        > > > all my findings. Please, somebody correct me if I am wrong; this is the
        > >feeling
        > >
        > > >
        > > > I am getting from all the responses.
        > > >
        > > > ________________________________
        > > > From: haluska <mailto:ddhalusker%40yahoo.com>
        > > > To: mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com
        > > > Sent: Fri, December 31, 2010 10:30:27 PM
        > > > Subject: [S-R] Re: Entering Surnames on FTM
        > > >
        > > > I am with Michael.Enter it as found. Stay with the place name of the time. I
        >
        > > > have Births in Austria-Hungary,Marriages in Czechoslovakia and Deaths in The
        >
        > > > Slovak Republic entered into my Database for example.
        > > >
        > > > --- In mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com, "hyperlexiadaddy" <cowboyhat@>
        >
        > > > wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Hi
        > > > > I'm listing US birth certificate names like this:
        > > > >
        > > > > John Reginald SMITH
        > > > >
        > > > > (how do I get the capital A with the accent mark on
        > > > > the Slovak visual keyboard?)
        > > > >
        > > > > I'm going to be adding folks born
        > > > > in Slovakia, Czechoslovakia, Austria-Hungary,
        > > > > and Galicia.
        > > > >
        > > > > Shall I enter the Slovak
        > > > > or Hungarian spelling of the surname?
        > > > >
        > > > > Shall I list the birth country as it was at time of
        > > > > birth?
        > > > >
        > > > > Thanks
        > > > > Dave
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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