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Re: [S-R] MICHALOVE/MICHALOVCE

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  • Michael Mojher
    Martha, I m back from my trip. I took a look again at the online records for Michalovce, 1874 Marriages, Roman Catholic and Greek Catholic. I found no marriage
    Message 1 of 16 , Oct 29, 2010
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      Martha,
      I'm back from my trip.
      I took a look again at the online records for Michalovce, 1874 Marriages, Roman Catholic and Greek Catholic. I found no marriage of Mihaly Andrasov and Julianna Pinovarnyik. I have no idea where Juraj found that record. Since he and I have a "history" my request for more information has not been answered. He might reply to you. Tell him that you spotted the record and would like to know where and which religion the record was in.
      Not being able to find the record makes for a frustrating search.
      Michael


      From: discombobd
      Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 6:06 AM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [S-R] MICHALOVE/MICHALOVCE



      Michalovce is a town and also a region (okres) in eastern Slovakia.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michalovce

      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "martha.andras" <mandras@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hi Michael,
      >
      > Thanks for checking. If you find out anything more, please let me know.
      >
      > Martha
      >
      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Martha,
      > > I have never heard of a "county: Michalove" in Hungary. And have not been able to locate such.
      > > I wrote Juraj and asked him to clarify this county question.
      > > I looked at the marriage records for Michalovce in 1874, Greek and Roman Catholic, I did not spot your Mihaly and Julianna.
      > >
      > >
      > > From: martha.andras
      > > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 10:59 AM
      > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: Re: [S-R] MICHALOVE/MICHALOVCE
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi Michael,
      > >
      > > The listing is on Juraj Cisarik's website under "Marriage Records 1865-1895". They are listed alphabetically but I copied the listing I'm interested in to make it easier for you.
      > >
      > > 1874 Andrasov Mihaly groom 30 y.old widower Pinovarnyik Julianna bride 20 y.old single county: Michalove
      > >
      > > Hopefully, you can steer me in the right direction for searching!
      > >
      > > Thank you!
      > >
      > > Martha
      > >
      > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > 1468 Michalovce MI/KI zemplín./uzhorod. 1925 pricl. o. Stránany [uzhorod.]; 1960 pricl. o. Mocarany [zemplín.], Topolany [zemplín.], Vrbovec [uzhorod.].
      > > > 1773 Nagy-Mihály, Mihalowcze, 1786 Nagy-S[ent]-Mihály, Mihalowce, Nagy-Mihály, 1808 Nagy-Mihály, Groß-Michl, Michalany, Michalowce, 1863-1913 Nagymihály, 1920 Michalovce, 1927- Michalovce
      > > >
      > > > There was no listing for a Michalove for a town. It is a surname.
      > > >
      > > > Michalovce is in the Greek Catholic online records at the FHL.
      > > >
      > > > Where on Juraj Cisarik's sight did you see this marriage?
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > From: martha.andras
      > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 11:26 PM
      > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Subject: [S-R] MICHALOVE/MICHALOVCE
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Hi! I found a marriage listed on Juraj Cisarik's site and its possibly a family member back in 1874. The town where the marriage took place is MICHALOVE. The family was Greek Catholic. While looking at the Family Search Pilot, I see a town named MICHALOVCE. Before I begin searching I need to know if these are two names of the same town? If not, can someone tell me which records would hold the marriages in MICHALOVE? Thanks so much!
      > > >
      > > > Martha
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Martha Andras
      Hi Michael Welcome back & I hope you had a wonderful trip! I too have been slowly going through the records for Michalovce and so far haven t found anything.
      Message 2 of 16 , Oct 31, 2010
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        Hi Michael

        Welcome back & I hope you had a wonderful trip!

        I too have been slowly going through the records for Michalovce and so far
        haven't found anything. Thank you for looking again. Its been several
        months since I asked Juraj. I think the information is vague on purpose so
        you can hire him to do the search. Maybe I will contact him again. If I
        have any luck I'll be sure to let you know.

        Something very interesting - here in the united states Mihaly & Julia used
        the names Andrasov, Andrazsov, Andrasko and Andras! My husband is the 3rd
        generation to use Andras. Just goes to prove we should never stop
        searching!

        Have a good night!

        Martha

        -------Original Message-------

        From: Michael Mojher
        Date: 10/29/2010 5:31:51 PM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [S-R] MICHALOVE/MICHALOVCE


        Martha,
        I'm back from my trip.
        I took a look again at the online records for Michalovce, 1874 Marriages,
        Roman Catholic and Greek Catholic. I found no marriage of Mihaly Andrasov
        and Julianna Pinovarnyik. I have no idea where Juraj found that record.
        Since he and I have a "history" my request for more information has not been
        answered. He might reply to you. Tell him that you spotted the record and
        would like to know where and which religion the record was in.
        Not being able to find the record makes for a frustrating search.
        Michael

        From: discombobd
        Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 6:06 AM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [S-R] MICHALOVE/MICHALOVCE

        Michalovce is a town and also a region (okres) in eastern Slovakia.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michalovce

        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "martha.andras" <mandras@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hi Michael,
        >
        > Thanks for checking. If you find out anything more, please let me know.
        >
        > Martha
        >
        > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Martha,
        > > I have never heard of a "county: Michalove" in Hungary. And have not
        been able to locate such.
        > > I wrote Juraj and asked him to clarify this county question.
        > > I looked at the marriage records for Michalovce in 1874, Greek and Roman
        Catholic, I did not spot your Mihaly and Julianna.
        > >
        > >
        > > From: martha.andras
        > > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 10:59 AM
        > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: Re: [S-R] MICHALOVE/MICHALOVCE
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi Michael,
        > >
        > > The listing is on Juraj Cisarik's website under "Marriage Records
        1865-1895". They are listed alphabetically but I copied the listing I'm
        interested in to make it easier for you.
        > >
        > > 1874 Andrasov Mihaly groom 30 y.old widower Pinovarnyik Julianna bride
        20 y.old single county: Michalove
        > >
        > > Hopefully, you can steer me in the right direction for searching!
        > >
        > > Thank you!
        > >
        > > Martha
        > >
        > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > 1468 Michalovce MI/KI zemplín./uzhorod. 1925 pricl. o. Stránany
        [uzhorod.]; 1960 pricl. o. Mocarany [zemplín.], Topolany [zemplín.], Vrbovec
        [uzhorod.].
        > > > 1773 Nagy-Mihály, Mihalowcze, 1786 Nagy-S[ent]-Mihály, Mihalowce,
        Nagy-Mihály, 1808 Nagy-Mihály, Groß-Michl, Michalany, Michalowce, 1863-1913
        Nagymihály, 1920 Michalovce, 1927- Michalovce
        > > >
        > > > There was no listing for a Michalove for a town. It is a surname.
        > > >
        > > > Michalovce is in the Greek Catholic online records at the FHL.
        > > >
        > > > Where on Juraj Cisarik's sight did you see this marriage?
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > From: martha.andras
        > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 11:26 PM
        > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Subject: [S-R] MICHALOVE/MICHALOVCE
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Hi! I found a marriage listed on Juraj Cisarik's site and its possibly
        a family member back in 1874. The town where the marriage took place is
        MICHALOVE. The family was Greek Catholic. While looking at the Family Search
        Pilot, I see a town named MICHALOVCE. Before I begin searching I need to
        know if these are two names of the same town? If not, can someone tell me
        which records would hold the marriages in MICHALOVE? Thanks so much!
        > > >
        > > > Martha
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Michael Mojher
        Martha, It was a wonderful trip. Seeing territory in a new season gives one a chance to enjoy a new view and beauty. You are correct that Juraj is in business
        Message 3 of 16 , Oct 31, 2010
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          Martha,
          It was a wonderful trip. Seeing territory in a new season gives one a chance to enjoy a new view and beauty.
          You are correct that Juraj is in business and wants to generate such. Nothing wrong with that, per se. We live in a capitalist system and so do they now. Which means we have to be careful that the services offered are worth the cost. In the end what is it worth to break a "log jam" in a genealogy search? For some of us who are in the second decade of searching such vital information is almost worth anything. That is the part of the "game" of genealogy. What are you willing to pay for that vital piece of information that breaks your search wide open?
          For Juraj to post 18,000 marriages is no different from other people who do online "phishing" to get your personal information. He hopes that he get hits and then when people want to know about the posting he will only give it to them if they pay for it. If he was honest he would say that for $XX I will give you the information about this posting. By not listing a set cost he can then try to get people to pay as much as possible for the information. It may be in accordance with capitalism, but is it ethical according to the rules of the genealogy society he says he is a member of.
          You have come across a not so uncommon situation where the the family surname goes through a transformation to an Americanized form. You are lucky that you know those early generation spellings. Usually by the third generation of a surname be settled on in form the previous ones can be forgotten.
          It seem like the search never ends. Which is possible if you care to try and follow every branch of the family that you encounter. I suppose there are those that is the ultimate achievement. But for some of us the search is one that is relevant to our lives. And it is our call on how many generations we want to go back. Eventually, there is just the limit of the records. They do not got back to Adam and Eve. Each society has a point where surnames started to be used. At what point was that for the Slovaks? I have not learned that yet. The Christian church began with the building of the first church in Nitra in 800. When did the Church begin keeping records? Even with knowing those dates does not mean that it is relevant to most of us. Because most of us are of peasant roots. And they were not worthy of record keeping until much later. So we have to appreciate finding the records that do exist of our families.



          From: Martha Andras
          Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 5:00 PM
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [S-R] MICHALOVE/MICHALOVCE



          Hi Michael

          Welcome back & I hope you had a wonderful trip!

          I too have been slowly going through the records for Michalovce and so far
          haven't found anything. Thank you for looking again. Its been several
          months since I asked Juraj. I think the information is vague on purpose so
          you can hire him to do the search. Maybe I will contact him again. If I
          have any luck I'll be sure to let you know.

          Something very interesting - here in the united states Mihaly & Julia used
          the names Andrasov, Andrazsov, Andrasko and Andras! My husband is the 3rd
          generation to use Andras. Just goes to prove we should never stop
          searching!

          Have a good night!

          Martha

          -------Original Message-------

          From: Michael Mojher
          Date: 10/29/2010 5:31:51 PM
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [S-R] MICHALOVE/MICHALOVCE


          Martha,
          I'm back from my trip.
          I took a look again at the online records for Michalovce, 1874 Marriages,
          Roman Catholic and Greek Catholic. I found no marriage of Mihaly Andrasov
          and Julianna Pinovarnyik. I have no idea where Juraj found that record.
          Since he and I have a "history" my request for more information has not been
          answered. He might reply to you. Tell him that you spotted the record and
          would like to know where and which religion the record was in.
          Not being able to find the record makes for a frustrating search.
          Michael

          From: discombobd
          Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 6:06 AM
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [S-R] MICHALOVE/MICHALOVCE

          Michalovce is a town and also a region (okres) in eastern Slovakia.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michalovce

          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "martha.andras" <mandras@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi Michael,
          >
          > Thanks for checking. If you find out anything more, please let me know.
          >
          > Martha
          >
          > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Martha,
          > > I have never heard of a "county: Michalove" in Hungary. And have not
          been able to locate such.
          > > I wrote Juraj and asked him to clarify this county question.
          > > I looked at the marriage records for Michalovce in 1874, Greek and Roman
          Catholic, I did not spot your Mihaly and Julianna.
          > >
          > >
          > > From: martha.andras
          > > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 10:59 AM
          > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: Re: [S-R] MICHALOVE/MICHALOVCE
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Hi Michael,
          > >
          > > The listing is on Juraj Cisarik's website under "Marriage Records
          1865-1895". They are listed alphabetically but I copied the listing I'm
          interested in to make it easier for you.
          > >
          > > 1874 Andrasov Mihaly groom 30 y.old widower Pinovarnyik Julianna bride
          20 y.old single county: Michalove
          > >
          > > Hopefully, you can steer me in the right direction for searching!
          > >
          > > Thank you!
          > >
          > > Martha
          > >
          > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > 1468 Michalovce MI/KI zemplín./uzhorod. 1925 pricl. o. Stránany
          [uzhorod.]; 1960 pricl. o. Mocarany [zemplín.], Topolany [zemplín.], Vrbovec
          [uzhorod.].
          > > > 1773 Nagy-Mihály, Mihalowcze, 1786 Nagy-S[ent]-Mihály, Mihalowce,
          Nagy-Mihály, 1808 Nagy-Mihály, Groß-Michl, Michalany, Michalowce, 1863-1913
          Nagymihály, 1920 Michalovce, 1927- Michalovce
          > > >
          > > > There was no listing for a Michalove for a town. It is a surname.
          > > >
          > > > Michalovce is in the Greek Catholic online records at the FHL.
          > > >
          > > > Where on Juraj Cisarik's sight did you see this marriage?
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > From: martha.andras
          > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 11:26 PM
          > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          > > > Subject: [S-R] MICHALOVE/MICHALOVCE
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Hi! I found a marriage listed on Juraj Cisarik's site and its possibly
          a family member back in 1874. The town where the marriage took place is
          MICHALOVE. The family was Greek Catholic. While looking at the Family Search
          Pilot, I see a town named MICHALOVCE. Before I begin searching I need to
          know if these are two names of the same town? If not, can someone tell me
          which records would hold the marriages in MICHALOVE? Thanks so much!
          > > >
          > > > Martha
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ron
          Assigning surnames is another topic, and when that started for nobility and for peasants varied from region to region, so a general statement is risky. Church
          Message 4 of 16 , Oct 31, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Assigning surnames is another topic, and when that started for nobility and for peasants varied from region to region, so a general statement is risky. Church records are a bit better, as they started in response to government decrees... and there are again variations in when they started for the different faiths and different regions.

            "it has been ordered to keep the register of baptised persons since 1515 by the Church congress in Veszprém, but there were necessary two more synods (1564 and 1611) in Trnava to extend the keeping of registers according to the appointment of the Trident council."
            and
            "1781, the Catholic church was required to keep the records for all other faiths in the empire,"

            With all of the conflicting information out there, I will leave it to you to find and confirm the information relevant in your area of interest. At least a large part of the Mihalovce records are on line at LDS, so you can see how far back those go...

            Ron

            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@...> wrote:
            >
            Eventually, there is just the limit of the records. They do not got back to Adam and Eve. Each society has a point where surnames started to be used. At what point was that for the Slovaks? I have not learned that yet. The Christian church began with the building of the first church in Nitra in 800. When did the Church begin keeping records?
          • Michael Mojher
            Ron, Thanks for the information on record keeping. For my own education can you send me the sources you quoted from? A relative of wife did a family genealogy
            Message 5 of 16 , Nov 1, 2010
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              Ron,
              Thanks for the information on record keeping.
              For my own education can you send me the sources you quoted from?
              A relative of wife did a family genealogy that was very extensive and self-published as a book. Her family was from the British Isles. He claims to have followed the family surname back to 1066, when he says surnames began to be used.
              Michael


              From: Ron
              Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 7:48 PM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [S-R] MICHALOVE/MICHALOVCE



              Assigning surnames is another topic, and when that started for nobility and for peasants varied from region to region, so a general statement is risky. Church records are a bit better, as they started in response to government decrees... and there are again variations in when they started for the different faiths and different regions.

              "it has been ordered to keep the register of baptised persons since 1515 by the Church congress in Veszprém, but there were necessary two more synods (1564 and 1611) in Trnava to extend the keeping of registers according to the appointment of the Trident council."
              and
              "1781, the Catholic church was required to keep the records for all other faiths in the empire,"

              With all of the conflicting information out there, I will leave it to you to find and confirm the information relevant in your area of interest. At least a large part of the Mihalovce records are on line at LDS, so you can see how far back those go...

              Ron

              --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@...> wrote:
              >
              Eventually, there is just the limit of the records. They do not got back to Adam and Eve. Each society has a point where surnames started to be used. At what point was that for the Slovaks? I have not learned that yet. The Christian church began with the building of the first church in Nitra in 800. When did the Church begin keeping records?





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Bill Tarkulich
              If anyone cares to pursue a PhD, I am certain there is enough work here for at least 100 Thesis documents. :) Bill ... -- Bill
              Message 6 of 16 , Nov 1, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                If anyone cares to pursue a PhD, I am certain there is enough work here
                for at least 100 Thesis documents. :)

                Bill



                On Sun, October 31, 2010 10:48 pm, Ron wrote:
                > Assigning surnames is another topic, and when that started for nobility
                > and for peasants varied from region to region, so a general statement is
                > risky. Church records are a bit better, as they started in response to
                > government decrees... and there are again variations in when they started
                > for the different faiths and different regions.
                >
                > "it has been ordered to keep the register of baptised persons since 1515
                > by the Church congress in Veszprém, but there were necessary two more
                > synods (1564 and 1611) in Trnava to extend the keeping of registers
                > according to the appointment of the Trident council."
                > and
                > "1781, the Catholic church was required to keep the records for all other
                > faiths in the empire,"
                >
                > With all of the conflicting information out there, I will leave it to you
                > to find and confirm the information relevant in your area of interest. At
                > least a large part of the Mihalovce records are on line at LDS, so you can
                > see how far back those go...
                >
                > Ron
                >
                > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@...>
                > wrote:
                >>
                > Eventually, there is just the limit of the records. They do not got back
                > to Adam and Eve. Each society has a point where surnames started to be
                > used. At what point was that for the Slovaks? I have not learned that
                > yet. The Christian church began with the building of the first church in
                > Nitra in 800. When did the Church begin keeping records?
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >


                --
                Bill
              • Ron
                Michael, I deliberately skipped giving the citations, as I remembered the event - the A-H state calling for records to be kept by the church under Maria
                Message 7 of 16 , Nov 1, 2010
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                  Michael,

                  I deliberately skipped giving the citations, as I remembered the event - the A-H state calling for records to be kept by the church under Maria Theresa and her son Joseph who reigned (both as king of Hungary. she was not a queen) around the time of our American Revolution. It is interesting that the call for record keeping started long before, as stated in the one quotation.

                  This wasn't intended to be a definitive posting, but one leading to an answer. I don't have time at the moment to research and compose a definitive answer I feel confident in.

                  If you do a google search on the topic you should come up with the same (or similar) references and draw your own conclusions. Sorry to dissapoint!

                  Ron

                  --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Ron,
                  > Thanks for the information on record keeping.
                  > For my own education can you send me the sources you quoted from?
                  > A relative of wife did a family genealogy that was very extensive and self-published as a book. Her family was from the British Isles. He claims to have followed the family surname back to 1066, when he says surnames began to be used.
                  > Michael
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Ron
                  > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 7:48 PM
                  > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [S-R] MICHALOVE/MICHALOVCE
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Assigning surnames is another topic, and when that started for nobility and for peasants varied from region to region, so a general statement is risky. Church records are a bit better, as they started in response to government decrees... and there are again variations in when they started for the different faiths and different regions.
                  >
                  > "it has been ordered to keep the register of baptised persons since 1515 by the Church congress in Veszprém, but there were necessary two more synods (1564 and 1611) in Trnava to extend the keeping of registers according to the appointment of the Trident council."
                  > and
                  > "1781, the Catholic church was required to keep the records for all other faiths in the empire,"
                  >
                  > With all of the conflicting information out there, I will leave it to you to find and confirm the information relevant in your area of interest. At least a large part of the Mihalovce records are on line at LDS, so you can see how far back those go...
                  >
                  > Ron
                  >
                  > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > Eventually, there is just the limit of the records. They do not got back to Adam and Eve. Each society has a point where surnames started to be used. At what point was that for the Slovaks? I have not learned that yet. The Christian church began with the building of the first church in Nitra in 800. When did the Church begin keeping records?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Michael Mojher
                  Ron, Any clue to an answer is appreciated. Thanks for those. From: Ron Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 12:04 PM To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com Subject: [S-R]
                  Message 8 of 16 , Nov 1, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Ron,
                    Any clue to an answer is appreciated. Thanks for those.

                    From: Ron
                    Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 12:04 PM
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [S-R] Start of church records /MICHALOVCE



                    Michael,

                    I deliberately skipped giving the citations, as I remembered the event - the A-H state calling for records to be kept by the church under Maria Theresa and her son Joseph who reigned (both as king of Hungary. she was not a queen) around the time of our American Revolution. It is interesting that the call for record keeping started long before, as stated in the one quotation.

                    This wasn't intended to be a definitive posting, but one leading to an answer. I don't have time at the moment to research and compose a definitive answer I feel confident in.

                    If you do a google search on the topic you should come up with the same (or similar) references and draw your own conclusions. Sorry to dissapoint!

                    Ron

                    --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Ron,
                    > Thanks for the information on record keeping.
                    > For my own education can you send me the sources you quoted from?
                    > A relative of wife did a family genealogy that was very extensive and self-published as a book. Her family was from the British Isles. He claims to have followed the family surname back to 1066, when he says surnames began to be used.
                    > Michael
                    >
                    >
                    > From: Ron
                    > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 7:48 PM
                    > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [S-R] MICHALOVE/MICHALOVCE
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Assigning surnames is another topic, and when that started for nobility and for peasants varied from region to region, so a general statement is risky. Church records are a bit better, as they started in response to government decrees... and there are again variations in when they started for the different faiths and different regions.
                    >
                    > "it has been ordered to keep the register of baptised persons since 1515 by the Church congress in Veszprém, but there were necessary two more synods (1564 and 1611) in Trnava to extend the keeping of registers according to the appointment of the Trident council."
                    > and
                    > "1781, the Catholic church was required to keep the records for all other faiths in the empire,"
                    >
                    > With all of the conflicting information out there, I will leave it to you to find and confirm the information relevant in your area of interest. At least a large part of the Mihalovce records are on line at LDS, so you can see how far back those go...
                    >
                    > Ron
                    >
                    > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > Eventually, there is just the limit of the records. They do not got back to Adam and Eve. Each society has a point where surnames started to be used. At what point was that for the Slovaks? I have not learned that yet. The Christian church began with the building of the first church in Nitra in 800. When did the Church begin keeping records?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Bill Tarkulich
                    Peter is a well respected researcher in Slovakia http://www.centroconsult.sk/genealogy/sarmany.html Bill ... -- Bill
                    Message 9 of 16 , Nov 1, 2010
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                      Peter is a well respected researcher in Slovakia
                      http://www.centroconsult.sk/genealogy/sarmany.html
                      Bill

                      On Mon, November 1, 2010 4:19 pm, Michael Mojher wrote:
                      >
                      > Ron,
                      > Any clue to an answer is appreciated. Thanks for those.
                      >
                      > From: Ron
                      > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 12:04 PM
                      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [S-R] Start of church records /MICHALOVCE
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Michael,
                      >
                      > I deliberately skipped giving the citations, as I remembered the event -
                      > the A-H state calling for records to be kept by the church under Maria
                      > Theresa and her son Joseph who reigned (both as king of Hungary. she was
                      > not a queen) around the time of our American Revolution. It is interesting
                      > that the call for record keeping started long before, as stated in the one
                      > quotation.
                      >
                      > This wasn't intended to be a definitive posting, but one leading to an
                      > answer. I don't have time at the moment to research and compose a
                      > definitive answer I feel confident in.
                      >
                      > If you do a google search on the topic you should come up with the same
                      > (or similar) references and draw your own conclusions. Sorry to
                      > dissapoint!
                      >
                      > Ron
                      >
                      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@...>
                      > wrote:
                      >>
                      >> Ron,
                      >> Thanks for the information on record keeping.
                      >> For my own education can you send me the sources you quoted from?
                      >> A relative of wife did a family genealogy that was very extensive and
                      >> self-published as a book. Her family was from the British Isles. He
                      >> claims to have followed the family surname back to 1066, when he says
                      >> surnames began to be used.
                      >> Michael
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> From: Ron
                      >> Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 7:48 PM
                      >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      >> Subject: Re: [S-R] MICHALOVE/MICHALOVCE
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Assigning surnames is another topic, and when that started for nobility
                      >> and for peasants varied from region to region, so a general statement is
                      >> risky. Church records are a bit better, as they started in response to
                      >> government decrees... and there are again variations in when they
                      >> started for the different faiths and different regions.
                      >>
                      >> "it has been ordered to keep the register of baptised persons since 1515
                      >> by the Church congress in Veszprém, but there were necessary two more
                      >> synods (1564 and 1611) in Trnava to extend the keeping of registers
                      >> according to the appointment of the Trident council."
                      >> and
                      >> "1781, the Catholic church was required to keep the records for all
                      >> other faiths in the empire,"
                      >>
                      >> With all of the conflicting information out there, I will leave it to
                      >> you to find and confirm the information relevant in your area of
                      >> interest. At least a large part of the Mihalovce records are on line at
                      >> LDS, so you can see how far back those go...
                      >>
                      >> Ron
                      >>
                      >> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@> wrote:
                      >> >
                      >> Eventually, there is just the limit of the records. They do not got back
                      >> to Adam and Eve. Each society has a point where surnames started to be
                      >> used. At what point was that for the Slovaks? I have not learned that
                      >> yet. The Christian church began with the building of the first church in
                      >> Nitra in 800. When did the Church begin keeping records?
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                      > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                      > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      --
                      Bill
                    • Ron
                      OK, given the history file on my browser, I can confirm the reference Bill proposed is one I used = http://www.centroconsult.sk/genealogy/sarmany.html with my
                      Message 10 of 16 , Nov 1, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        OK, given the history file on my browser, I can confirm the reference Bill proposed is one I used =
                        http://www.centroconsult.sk/genealogy/sarmany.html
                        with my quotation starting about line 8.

                        What I want to read is one of Bill's collected references, a rather large (but worthwhile 2mb) pdf at
                        http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/Documents/heritage%20quest/hone_dec03%20AH%20BUFFET%20COURSE%202.pdf


                        Another reference that looked interesting but didn't get used this time was at
                        http://www.hungarianvillagefinder.com/cdrom/4steps.html

                        Hope this helps, or at least is interesting!

                        Ron

                        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Ron,
                        > Any clue to an answer is appreciated. Thanks for those.
                        >
                        > From: Ron
                        > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 12:04 PM
                        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [S-R] Start of church records /MICHALOVCE
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Michael,
                        >
                        > I deliberately skipped giving the citations, as I remembered the event - the A-H state calling for records to be kept by the church under Maria Theresa and her son Joseph who reigned (both as king of Hungary. she was not a queen) around the time of our American Revolution. It is interesting that the call for record keeping started long before, as stated in the one quotation.
                        >
                        > This wasn't intended to be a definitive posting, but one leading to an answer. I don't have time at the moment to research and compose a definitive answer I feel confident in.
                        >
                        > If you do a google search on the topic you should come up with the same (or similar) references and draw your own conclusions. Sorry to dissapoint!
                        >
                        > Ron
                        >
                        > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Ron,
                        > > Thanks for the information on record keeping.
                        > > For my own education can you send me the sources you quoted from?
                        > > A relative of wife did a family genealogy that was very extensive and self-published as a book. Her family was from the British Isles. He claims to have followed the family surname back to 1066, when he says surnames began to be used.
                        > > Michael
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > From: Ron
                        > > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 7:48 PM
                        > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Subject: Re: [S-R] MICHALOVE/MICHALOVCE
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Assigning surnames is another topic, and when that started for nobility and for peasants varied from region to region, so a general statement is risky. Church records are a bit better, as they started in response to government decrees... and there are again variations in when they started for the different faiths and different regions.
                        > >
                        > > "it has been ordered to keep the register of baptised persons since 1515 by the Church congress in Veszprém, but there were necessary two more synods (1564 and 1611) in Trnava to extend the keeping of registers according to the appointment of the Trident council."
                        > > and
                        > > "1781, the Catholic church was required to keep the records for all other faiths in the empire,"
                        > >
                        > > With all of the conflicting information out there, I will leave it to you to find and confirm the information relevant in your area of interest. At least a large part of the Mihalovce records are on line at LDS, so you can see how far back those go...
                        > >
                        > > Ron
                        > >
                        > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > Eventually, there is just the limit of the records. They do not got back to Adam and Eve. Each society has a point where surnames started to be used. At what point was that for the Slovaks? I have not learned that yet. The Christian church began with the building of the first church in Nitra in 800. When did the Church begin keeping records?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
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