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Re: [S-R] Re: Emigration of Young Women

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  • Bill Tarkulich
    Hello All, One must take care to put the events into the proper historical context when discussing matters such as this. When providing evidence of travel,
    Message 1 of 48 , Oct 5, 2010
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      Hello All,

      One must take care to put the events into the proper historical context
      when discussing matters such as this.

      When providing evidence of travel, make sure you include the years of
      travel, the place of origin and destination and other pertinent matters.
      Rules and customs changed over time.

      The Official rule in Hungary was that you had to be age 16 to emigrate alone.
      Of course some people lied about their age and often there was no written
      documentation to prove or disprove this.

      In my family's case, from the late 1800s until 1918, children under age of
      16 always traveled with a companion, be it a sibling, parent, aunt/uncle,
      friend or other villager.

      Women over the age of 16 occasionally traveled alone, but I think it was a
      matter of self-confidence and family opinion. More often than not, women,
      married or not traveled with a companion. Steerage was not a pleasant
      place, even if you did feel safe. Specifically in my village, 2,3 or 4
      travelers often came together.

      I saw many single women travel to the US. I then saw most of them marry
      someone either from their village or a neighboring village in the early
      1900s. In the 1920s and later, they began to marry outside the village.
      Whether this was "arranged" back in the village or not, we probably will
      never know.

      My grandmother was in the US for two years before she married my GF,who
      was from a neighboring village. Arranged? Sent for? Who knows. The
      villages of Nova Sedlica and Zboj were very tight-knit, and most of the
      the immigrants initially settled near to each other in Scranton. Within 5
      years, many had moved on.

      You should also think about why these people left. Frankly, they were
      often forced to leave because the family garden and the work situation was
      unsustainable - not enough food or work for that many people.
      Read this little piece I wrote for more background.
      http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/why_emigrate.htm

      Regards,
      Bill

      >
      > --- On Mon, 10/4/10, Bratgirl54@... <Bratgirl54@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: Bratgirl54@... <Bratgirl54@...>
      > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Emigration of Young Women
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:53 PM
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      >
      >
      > My mother came over from Stara Tura with an aide only at the age of 7.
      > Her parents and sister were already here, but the family would not let
      > them
      > take my mother since she was not even one year old yet.
      >
      >
      > In a message dated 10/4/2010 11:45:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      > janammann@... writes:
      >
      > Hello................
      >
      > This is a very interesting subject which, hopefully, the group can expand
      > on. I myself have found children who traveled alone from the USA back to
      > Hungary for a visit.
      >
      > And I believe that young woman who perhaps had no parents or who just
      > wanted to start a new life came over after they found a position with a
      > family
      > who had already emigrated. Many young women were maids and cooks in these
      > homes.
      >
      > I evidently missed the beginning of this subject but will try and catch
      > up. Perhaps other listers can elaborate on any kind of information they
      > may
      > have concerning this practice.
      >
      > Jan
      >
      > --- On Sun, 10/3/10, John <_johnqadam@..._
      > (mailto:johnqadam@...) > wrote:
      >
      > From: John <_johnqadam@..._ (mailto:johnqadam@...) >
      > Subject: [S-R] Re: Emigration of Young Women
      > To: _SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
      > Date: Sunday, October 3, 2010, 12:14 PM
      >
      >>>> Most of the information on single women of a young age emigrating to
      > America has been "hearsay". We now have three real young women of 15
      > coming
      > here alone. So we know it was done, but what were the rules and
      > regulations? <<<
      >
      > Furthermore, I have an instance of a 15 year old male (illegitimate)
      > headed for PA. Apparently his mother left the child to be raised by
      > others. It
      > is said that she died but no death record found. That trail is cold.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
      > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
      > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      --
      Bill
    • Julie Michutka
      Thank you, Carolyn! Julie Michutka jmm@pathbridge.net
      Message 48 of 48 , Feb 21, 2011
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        Thank you, Carolyn!

        Julie Michutka
        jmm@...

        On Feb 21, 2011, at 2:05 PM, nilo3rak wrote:

        > Julie Michutka asked for my reference. I thought others may want
        > this information, especially those with a propensity for legal
        > research.
        >
        > Reference: EMIGRATION AND IMMIGRATION: LEGISLATION AND TREATIES
        > Author: International Labour Office
        > Publisher: Geneva, 1922
        >
        > Available online through the Internet Archive, digitizer/
        > contributor: University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign
        > http://www.archive.org/stream/emigrationimmigr00inte/emigrationimmigr00inte_djvu.txt
        >
        > This work is over 400 pages and deals only with measures, laws,
        > regulations and treaties, of 76 countries adopted before January
        > 1922. These countries are Albania, Algeria, Argentina, Australia,
        > Austria, Belgium, the
        > Bermudas, Bolivia, Brazil, Bulgaria, Canada, Chile, China, Colombia,
        > the Belgian Congo, Corea, Costa Rica, Cuba, Curacao, Czechoslovakia,
        > Denmark, Ecuador, Esthonia, Finland, France, Germany, Great Britain
        > and Ireland, Greece, Guatemaia, British Guiana, Dutch Guiana, Haiti,
        > Honduras, Hungary, India, Netherlands Indies, Italy, Japan, Latvia,
        > Liberia, Lichtenstein, Lithuania, Luxemburg, the Republic of San
        > Marino, Morocco, Mexico, the Principality of Monaco, Mozambique,
        > Netherlands, Newfound-land, New Zealand, Norway, Palestine, Panama,
        > Paraguay, Persia, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Rhodesia. Roumania,
        > Russia, Salvador, Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, Siam,
        > Spain, South Africa, Sweden, Switzerland, Tanganyika, Tunis, Turkey,
        > United States, Uruguay, Venezuela, Zanzibar.
        >
        > Happy reading!
        > Carolyn
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "nilo3rak" <eirrac25@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> In Hungary, two legislative acts prior to WWI address the
        >> emigration of young women and children in general:
        >> Order of 1869 concerning the emigration of women and girls and
        >> Emigration Act of 18 February 1909.
        >>
        >> (7) According to the Hungarian Act (1909), minors who
        >> are under parental authority may emigrate without their father
        >> only if they have authority in writing, stamped with the
        >> official visa. Those who are under the care of a guardian must
        >> have the formal permission of their guardian and of the
        >> guardians' authorities. In either case they are not allowed to
        >> emigrate unless it can be shown that their support is provided
        >> for at the place to which they are going.
        >>
        >> — 18 —
        >> Women who are not yet of age and boys less than 16 years
        >> of age may emigrate without their parents only if it can be
        >> shown, apart from the conditions mentioned above, that they
        >> are travelling to their destination with an adult person abso-
        >> lutely worthy of confidence.
        >>
        >> (3) In Hungary, in addition to the general provisions of
        >> the Emigration Act of 1909, the instruction issued to all muni-
        >> cipalities by the Minister of the Interior in 1869 requires them
        >> to prevent" the journey of young girls or women to the East
        >> for immoral purposes.
        >>
        >> After WWI:
        >> (5) According to the Czechoslovak Bill, minors not tra-
        >> velling with their parents must be provided with the autho-
        >> risation of the official Council of Guardians. This provision does
        >> not apply to minors over 18 years of age going to a European
        >> country. The Council of Guardians may, however, prohibit
        >> the journey if it considers that the effects would be detrimental
        >> to the morality or health of the person concerned. Women under
        >> age and boys of less than 16 years of age may further emigrate
        >> without their parents if accompanied to their final destination
        >> by adults of over 24 years of age who are fully reliable.
        >>
        >> (4) By Hungarian law, emigration is forbidden to parents
        >> who leave children less than 16 years of age behind them with-
        >> out having made arrangements for their welfare in the future,
        >> and also to persons who have not made arrangements for
        >> dependents incapable of working.
        >>
        >> In addition there were several international conventions and
        >> agreements prohibiting white slavery and prostitution. They are
        >> too numerous to mention here. (Note that this problem exists
        >> today. No amount of legislation or international agreements have
        >> wiped it out. Immoral, illegal, but highly profitable much like
        >> the drug trade.)
        >>
        >> Carolyn
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@>
        >> wrote:
        >>>
        >>> Bill,
        >>> It looks like this subject needs some research. Most of the
        >>> information
        >>> on single women of a young age emigrating to America has been
        >>> "hearsay". We
        >>> now have three real young women of 15 coming here alone. So we
        >>> know it was
        >>> done, but what were the rules and regulations?
        >>>
        >>> --------------------------------------------------
        >>> From: "William F Brna" <wfbrna@>
        >>> Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 5:16 AM
        >>> To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
        >>> Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Castle near Hromos
        >>>
        >>>> Michael,
        >>>>
        >>>> My mother was 15 when she landed in Baltimore on December 23, 1906.
        >>>> There is no indication that she was traveling with anyone,
        >>>> though she
        >>>> did have a sponsor (her aunt) in Cleveland.
        >>>>
        >>>> Bill Brna
        >>>>
        >>>> On Sat, 2 Oct 2010 19:58:05 -0700 "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@>
        >>>> writes:
        >>>>
        >>>> Laurie,
        >>>> In 1902/3 I would doubt that "Kata" at 15 came alone. There was a
        >>>> rule
        >>>> about young women being 19 or older being allowed in. But then my
        >>>> Mother
        >>>> says her mother was 15 and came in during the same years. A
        >>>> genealogist
        >>>> in Slovakia said that a legal paper showing a girl to be 19 was
        >>>> reused
        >>>> many times. One the girl got to America she would mail it home for
        >>>> someone else to use. Since I don't know the name on that document.
        >>>> Because of that it will be impossible to find my grandmother's
        >>>> entry into
        >>>> the USA. Look at the original Ships Manifest and see if someone
        >>>> from the
        >>>> same place was listed by Kata. That could have been the person
        >>>> that got
        >>>> her into the USA.
        >>>> Also during this period the shipping companies had agents all over
        >>>> Europe. One of their duties was to guide the passengers to the
        >>>> port they
        >>>> were leaving from. They offered many helpful services. They were
        >>>> virtually handed over to the agent who passed them on to the next
        >>>> agent.
        >>>> So getting to the port was not a problem.
        >>>> The problem would have been raising enough money for the trip.
        >>>> With that
        >>>> nine month lapse between leaving Hromos and arriving John
        >>>> presumes she
        >>>> must have worked to raise the funds during those nine months. My
        >>>> grandmother gave her earnings to her god-mother. When there was
        >>>> enough
        >>>> god-mother arrived with the money and grandmother left the next
        >>>> day.
        >>>>
        >>>> From: lmkennyjr
        >>>> Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 5:29 PM
        >>>> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        >>>> Subject: [S-R] Re: Castle near Hromos
        >>>>
        >>>> John, I'm new to this. I don't under stand your comment...
        >>>> <One can only wonder how she paid for the transit. That might
        >>>> explain the
        >>>> length of time that passed.>
        >>>>
        >>>> Is that because of her age (15) and travelling alone?
        >>>>
        >>>> Laurie
        >>>>
        >>>> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johnqadam@> wrote:
        >>>>>
        >>>>>>>> John wondered about the info in the last column. It is Exr.
        >>>>>>>> 1902
        >>>> IX/16 Am or Immigrated 1902 September 16 to America. . . . She
        >>>> came in
        >>>> under the name Kata Hanzelka. Arrived May 6 1903. Age 15. So it
        >>>> took her
        >>>> 9 months from the time she left Plavec to get to America. She was
        >>>> headed
        >>>> to Bridgeport (I call it little Hromos because so many immigrants
        >>>> settled
        >>>> there) to join her Uncle Pal Hanzelko at 688 Pembrook (I believe
        >>>> that is
        >>>> correct). <<<
        >>>>>
        >>>>> Good work on the EI reference. I checked EI but could not pin
        >>>>> down the
        >>>> connection. >
        >>>>
        >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
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        >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> ------------------------------------
        >>>>
        >>>> To visit your group on the web, go to:
        >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
        >>>>
        >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
        >>>> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank
        >>>> email to
        >>>> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@! Groups Links
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
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