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RE: [S-R] Accuracy of names in records - Gudasz

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  • Janet Kozlay
    I m not an expert, but I would pronounce it GOO-doss. Janet ... From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Evelyn
    Message 1 of 103 , Aug 30, 2010
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      I'm not an expert, but I would pronounce it GOO-doss.

      Janet


      -----Original Message-----
      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Evelyn Marsh
      Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 10:22 AM
      To: slovak-roots@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [S-R] Accuracy of names in records


      Janet - or anyone,
      Out of curiosity - what would be the pronunciation of a family name "
      Gudasz" - thanks,
      Evelyn

      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      From: kozlay@...
      Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 08:01:53 -0700
      Subject: RE: [S-R] Accuracy of names in records




























      "Seeing both SZ and CS in the same word (Szemanics) is a

      little puzzling, but I'm no linguist."



      Presuming that this is a Hungarian spelling, it would be pronounced

      SEM-an-ich. Both sz and cs are considered separate letters, pronounced like

      s and ch, respectively.



      Rather more confusing is the Hungarian cz, pronounced ts, because this is

      now an obsolete letter which has been replaced with the simple c, still

      pronounced ts. However, you still see it retained in names.



      Often people confuse the Hungarian sz with zs, which is yet another separate

      letter and is pronounced like the s in pleasure. I see this frequently in

      the spelling for the name Susanna which in Hungarian is correctly spelled

      Zsuzsanna, and pronounced zhuzhanna-not szuszanna, pronounced susanna. Think

      ZsaZsa Gabor, who uses a nickname for Zsuzsanna.



      Despite all this, the scribes (priests) did not always follow the rules. So

      you may find a name spelled with Cs or Cz, even though that implies a

      difference in pronunciation that probably did not exist. See, for example,

      Czabinye and Csebinye (now Cabiny SK).



      I hope I haven't further confused the issue.



      Janet



      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On

      Behalf Of Bill Tarkulich

      Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 4:09 AM

      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com

      Subject: RE: [S-R] Accuracy of names in records



      Hi Debbie,



      I will add a little to what has already been said. My position is that

      there is no one "correct" spelling for any surname. There is a spelling that

      is appropriate for the time and place in which it is used. Our region is a

      bit more knurly than most because it has undergone rule by many different

      empires, back and forth.



      Aside from the obvious errors introduced by scribes due to poor penmanship

      and misunderstanding:

      - Governments mandated that churches be their record-keepers until 1895.

      - The government mandates the language to be used in the records

      - Each language has it's own spelling rules and unique characters.

      - Languages may be reformed or "modernized" at a period in time, such as how

      Magyar was reformed by the Hungarians.

      - Churches, when left to their own designs, have sometimes elected to use

      Latin and Church Slavonic in which to record events.

      - Especially in the USA immigrants often purposely changed the spelling to

      that of English so as to make their name pronounceable as it was originally

      spoken back home. This was very often done by illiterate folks, but also by

      the literate.



      The correct strategy in record-keeping is to record the name EXACTLY AS

      RECORDED. Going back and "standardizing" on some presumptuously "correct"

      name is quite dangerous, as it makes your records nearly useless to those

      who want to pick up your research and go forward with it.



      With regard to not knowing what you are looking at, did you print out a copy

      of John Jasso's headers? Once you understand the column headers, it is

      fairly easy to decipher the writings - dates are dates, names are names.

      The occasional remarks in the columns are often the occupation and religion,

      which oft times are repeated again and again. John also provides a brief

      reference on most oft used words.

      http://www.bmi.net/~latin/



      Diacriticals - Ah, the angst - because of STOOPID COMPUTERS, it is not easy

      for those of us typing in English to render the correct characters on our

      keyboards and records. It can be done, I do it, but it gets garbled in the

      email, web and many times you want to share it with others. So we often

      leave it out.



      Does a diacritical matter? Absolutely. Take a simple example of my

      surname. I spell it TARKULICH in the USA, but in Slovak, it is spelled

      TARKULIC' , where C' is my feeble attempt to render a diacritical above the

      C. The ending of my name is pronounced "ICH" in both language. You can see

      if I left off the "H" in English, you would not pronounce it correctly if I

      had omitted the diacritical. And because most government documents cannot

      handle these characters well, well are left with, well, garbage. My name is

      also variously rendered as TARKULICZ in Magyar and TARKULICS in Church

      Slavonic.



      To understand your spelling of your name, Szemanics, we need to know the

      time and place. That will help you identify which language it was being

      rendered in. I'm going to make an assumption that it was during the time of

      Hungarian rule. SZ is often the Magyar (Hungarian) rendering. "CZ" is also

      a Magyar language construct. Seeing both SZ and CS in the same word is a

      little puzzling, but I'm no linguist.



      I hope this helps.



      Regards,



      Bill



      -----Original Message-----

      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>

      [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>

      ] On

      Behalf Of deeellessbee

      Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 10:42 PM

      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>

      Subject: [S-R] Accuracy of names in records



      I always read all the posts here because I am still learning about

      researching overseas, and I can learn from everyone else's questions.

      Something that Michael wrote in a recent thread caught my eye, and I have a

      question.



      When Elaine was asking about the possibilities of dimunitive endings on

      surnames, Michael wrote that we should know the hometown of our ancestors,

      "Because it is in those records you will find the way the name should be

      spelled."



      I have been doing a lot of research on another of my lines, here in the

      states. The name is Kelley - which is documented as being spelled in the

      records 14 different ways! I have even seen records where the name is

      spelled one way at the top of the document, and then signed another way

      (i.e. Kelly at the top, signature says Kelley). One branch of the family

      spelled it one way, another a second way, a third yet another (even among

      brothers). And as far as many records, it was not the person but another

      person (census taker, draft registrar, etc.) writing the info, so who knows

      how the name was really supposed to be spelled?



      So, my question is, in the records from overseas, how much can we really

      trust that the name we see is really "the real way" the name is spelled?

      English was a very fluid language, with things being spelled as they were

      heard; was Slovak or Hungarian the same way? I guess in some ways it doesn't

      matter, as long as you are sure you have found the right person, (at least,

      that's what I've found in my stateside research so far.) Does it make that

      much of a difference in these church records from overseas? And how do the

      diacritical marks play into this question?



      As an aside, I ordered some church records from Slovakia and have taken a

      quick look at them. I am, frankly, overwhelmed - I don't know Slovak,

      Hungarian, or Latin, and can't tell what I'm looking at, really! But, in

      the records for the town my family came from, the closest name I can find is

      Szemanics, (I was told by family that the original spelling of the name was

      Semanic). Could this be my family? Although I wonder why there is only one

      person by this name in all those years....



      Anyway, thoughts on the reliability of spellings of names in these records?



      Thanks!

      Debbie



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    • Janet Kozlay
      Yes, I have checked out Turciansky Michal (Szent-Mihaly). That’s where a few of my entries came from. I also have checked the nobility lists for Turocz—not
      Message 103 of 103 , Sep 10, 2010
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        Yes, I have checked out Turciansky Michal (Szent-Mihaly). That’s where a few of my entries came from.



        I also have checked the nobility lists for Turocz—not there.



        The only nobility information I have found is the ennoblement of a Kozla family in 1633, published in Torna megye in 1643 (Kempelen). But of course there is no proof that this is the same family. Since there is no village location given for “Torna” it would be a lot of work to examine all of the villages, though I suppose it could be done. Even then, could they be identified as being related to anyone in Turocz at a later time? It is the same problem with relating those from Turocz with those from Nograd.



        The family was Lutheran, which is why I pretty much focused on Ivancina. However, last week I took a look at all of the records from churches in the county, of which there are 11 Lutheran and 23 Roman Catholic. The records for only two of the Lutheran churches extend prior to 1780 (death of Maria Teresia). These are Neczpal (to 1690) and Ivancina/Ivankafalu (to 1715). Neczpal was in the northern district (Turoczszentmarton) and only Ivankafalu was in the southern (Stubnyafurdo/Mosocz-Zniovaralja). However, of the 18 Roman Catholic churches whose records date back to the 1600s or early 1700s, eight of them are in the southern district: Felso-Stubnya (from 1737), Haj (from 1674), Kis-Szoczocz (from 1690), Mosocz (from 1733), Szent-Gyorgy (from 1672), Szent-Mihaly (from 1690), Szkleno (from 1737), Tot-Prona (from 1730) and Znio-Varalja (from 1653). This is at least a workable number, and I’ve already looked at Szent-Mihaly.



        Good reasons for examining Roman Catholic records are twofold: One, they may in fact have been Roman Catholic at an earlier time. Two, I have seen at least one case where although the films are purportedly Roman Catholic, 90% of the early entries were for German Lutherans.



        Although this thread may have shed little light on my initial questions, I thank you who have responded for encouraging me to give yet another look to this area, to organize what material I have, and to suggest another avenue of research.



        Janet







        From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Margo Smith
        Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 7:58 PM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [S-R] Variations of -ik





        The churches were required to keep the vital records until 1895. Parishes kept
        records a little differently from each other. Turciansky Michal records are
        hard to read. Checking them is worth the investment of $12. I'd do it. Let me
        know when you find them. If you think they might have been Lutheran (this area
        of the valley was religiously mixed), then you have more of a challenge.

        ________________________________
        From: Elaine <epowell@... <mailto:epowell%40earthlink.net> >
        To: "SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> " <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> >
        Sent: Thu, September 9, 2010 9:29:11 PM
        Subject: Re: [S-R] Variations of -ik


        That's amazing, Margo!

        Is it possible that the early Turocz records would include some for my
        Holub family, prior to the start of the Kostolany records? I don't
        know the history of the churches, or the requirements regarding
        recordkeeping. If you think it would be worthwhile for me to look,
        I'll order the films you listed.

        Thanks!

        Elaine

        Sent from my iPhone

        On Sep 9, 2010, at 9:13 PM, Margo Smith <margolane61@... <mailto:margolane61%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

        > Yes, Elaine, Turocz records go back farther. The Roman Catholic
        > records for the
        > parish of Turciansky Michal (in which Kisfalu is located) go back to
        > 1690.
        > Reels 2062261 and 2062262. Kisfalu was a small village.
        >
        > Margo
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: Elaine <epowell@... <mailto:epowell%40earthlink.net> >
        > To: "SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> " <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> >
        > Sent: Mon, September 6, 2010 10:25:38 AM
        > Subject: Re: [S-R] Variations of -ik
        >
        >
        > Janet, thanks so much for posting your information, what an amazing
        > record of family history! And Margo, in addition to the research
        > pertinent to Janet's family, you caught my interest when you noted
        > that one member married in Kisfalu. That's the ancestral home of my
        > Holub family. I recently finished reviewing the 2 rolls of microfilm
        > for the RC records of Kisfalu and surrounding towns. However, the
        > earliest record was 1784. Was the information below in a note, or do
        > the Turocz records go back farther, like the ones Janet cited?
        > "Uhrik -- 1747 married in Kisfalu (by Turcianske Teplice)"
        >
        > Elaine
        >
        > Sent from my iPhone
        >
        > On Sep 6, 2010, at 7:53 AM, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@... <mailto:kozlay%40verizon.net> > wrote:
        >
        > > Margo,
        > >
        > > Thank you for attempting to address my question. Yes, I was “sugge
        > st
        > > ing” that “ege is an obsolete version of ik.”
        > >
        > > I have an unusual situation, as follows:
        > >
        > > Early 19th century manuscripts inherited by our family state that
        > > the family moved from Nagy Csepcseny in Turocz to the Hungarian
        > > Plain during the reign of Maria Teresia (died 1780). These were
        > > written by Jenő Kozlay, my husband’s great-grandfather, born abo
        > ut
        > > 1826 (cannot locate his baptismal record). He was well educated and
        > > articulate, and we know without any doubt that he was known by at le
        > > ast three names before he emigrated: János Kozik, János Kecskés,
        > > and Jenő Kozlay. His father, a butcher, was very wealthy. Both his
        > f
        > > ather and grandfather married into another butcher family (Massány
        > i)
        > > in Nograd megye. After the move south from Turócz, the family vario
        > > usly used the names Kozlay and Kozik (and Kecskés, but that’s not
        > > a problem) and have been found in the church records as such. Which
        > > name was used seemed to be associated at least sometimes with where
        > > they lived at the time (Nograd, Heves, Jasz-Nagykun-Szolnok), but so
        > > metimes a single individual was found under both names in the same v
        > > illage.
        > >
        > > The situation is further complicated by the fact that the writer of
        > > the manuscripts stated that he descended from an “old noble
        > > family” and that the property that had been owned by his family in
        > N
        > > agy Csepcseny was “still” called Kozlayo Csaska (in 1844). At t
        > he
        > > same time, we know that after the move, at least, the family were bu
        > > tchers, which seems unlikely for a noble family.
        > >
        > > It was his grandfather, Samuel, who came south from Nagy Csepcseny.
        > > The records suggest that he was not married because he later married
        > > in Nograd. It is possible that Samuel did not come alone—with a br
        > ot
        > > her, perhaps?
        > >
        > > All of the records indicate that this was a very small family. Our
        > > ancestor from the early 19th century described himself as the only
        > > son of an only son. There are few entries in the Turócz church rec
        > or
        > > ds that could be associated with this family.
        > >
        > > Most of the Nagy Csepcseny records were in Ivancina; a few in Szent-
        > > Mihaly. The few entries that I have found that are possibly related
        > > are for the most part only witnesses rather than births or
        > > marriages. They can pretty much be divided into two groups: those
        > > that appear to be “Kozlay,” and these are almost always
        > > identified as noble, and those that appear to be Kozlik and which do
        > > not appear to be noble. (There are also many entries for Kozol in t
        > > hese records, which I have dismissed, as that family seems to be muc
        > > h too large.) Sometime back I asked Vladimir Bohinc if we could be c
        > > ertain that Kozlik and Kozik were the same. He said that Koz and Koz
        > > l referred to male and female goats, “but whether it mattered to t
        > he
        > > m, who knows?”
        > >
        > > They are as follows:
        > >
        > > From the 1715 Census for Turocz:
        > >
        > > Nicolaus Kozik, , Inquilinus, Neczpal
        > >
        > > Georgius Kozal, Colonus, Ivankafalu (Ivancina)
        > >
        > > From the Church Records:
        > >
        > > 1724 Death of noble Anna Draskovszky, wife of Johannis Kozler
        > >
        > > (This “er” suffix is extremely odd. Uncertain if related.)
        > >
        > > 1725 D.N. Kozlaj
        > >
        > > 1729 D. Joh. Kozlaj
        > >
        > > 1732 Joh. Kozlik
        > >
        > > 1736 Joh. Kozlik
        > >
        > > 1736 Catharina Kozlik (daughter of Johannis)
        > >
        > > 1741 Anna Kozljk, marries Georgius Murin
        > >
        > > 1742 Samu Kozik marries Catharina B? This might be Kovik.
        > >
        > > 1744 Kozlai
        > >
        > > 1745-9 Michael Kozljk
        > >
        > > 1747 Prov. Joh. Kozlik, died age 52
        > >
        > > 1752 Birth of Joannes Providi Michaelis Kozlik filius
        > >
        > > 1753 Joh. Kozljk (father of Maria, who marries Georg Schluch)
        > >
        > > (There are several entries for Barbara Schluch , noble. She married
        > > into noble Erdegh family.)
        > >
        > > 1756 Anna Kozlech, daughter of Joannes, died age 2
        > >
        > > 1768 Georgio Koslege or Kozlege (Found only in Szent-Mihaly/
        > > Turciansky Michal)
        > >
        > > 1772 Georgy Koslege or Kozlege
        > >
        > > 1792 Providus Joannes Kozik, died age 47, butcher from Lovinobana.
        > >
        > > This entry in the Ivancina records is the only one that spells the
        > > name without the “l.” Lovinobana is in Nograd. He died in the
        > > baths at Stubnyafurdo! I think we can presume, since he is listed in
        > > the Ivancina records, that he was visiting relatives when he died.
        > > If this is the Joannes born in 1752, his age is off by 7 years. Coul
        > > d he be a brother to Samuel?
        > >
        > > Obviously the paucity of the records from this period is a real
        > > problem. Since there is an almost complete lack of birth and
        > > marriage records for the family(ies), one might wonder if they could
        > > be with a different village. However, the few I have looked at don
        > ’t
        > > show anything.
        > >
        > > The fact that you found an instance of ege in Turciansky Michal, as
        > > have I, seems to me to support a theory that it may be a variant of
        > > ik but one that was specific to that village.
        > >
        > > There are several directions I could go:
        > >
        > > 1. Assume that there just isn’t anything more there; that records
        > in
        > > the 1700s were incomplete.
        > >
        > > 2. Look elsewhere in the area, though my previous attempts have not
        > > located anything.
        > >
        > > 3. Hire Vladimir Bohinc to look at other records, such as might be
        > > found in courts or real estate transactions. Probably would be very
        > > expensive.
        > >
        > > Not looking further means that I cannot verify that Jenő
        > > “descended from an old noble family” (Kozlay) or that his
        > > ancestors were Kozik/Kozliks. I would dearly love to find Samuel som
        > > ewhere in Turócz, but so far have been unsuccessful. The one Samu
        > Ko
        > > zik was married to a Catharina in 1742, but “our” Samuel Kozik/
        > > Kozlay married Zsuzsanna Massányi in Szirák, Nograd megye. The fam
        > il
        > > y seems to have settled at one point in Lovinobana, perhaps where th
        > > ey first settled, not far from Szirák. Unfortunately records for t
        > he
        > > late 1700s and early 1800s are gone—no one knows why. They might
        > ha
        > > ve answered some of these questions.
        > >
        > > All well, Margo, I don’t really expect you to solve my problems, b
        > ut
        > > it at least gave me the opportunity to put together in one spot all
        > > of the pieces I have.
        > >
        > > So if you’ve made it through this far, I thank you.
        > >
        > > Janet
        > >
        > > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:SLOVAK-
        > > ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Margo Smith
        > > Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 12:37 PM
        > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Variations of -ik
        > >
        > > Ahoj Janet
        > >
        > > Here is what I have from Turiec, with my earliest reference: (my
        > > email doesn't
        > > accept diacritics)
        > >
        > > Bizik -- Zaturcie in 1784
        > > Kovascik -- mid 1700s, married a fellow from Zaturcie; also 1780s
        > > Ondrasova
        > > [different families]
        > > Janosik -- 1750 married in Ondrasova
        > > Uhrik -- 1747 married in Kisfalu (by Turcianske Teplice)
        > > Ludik -- born 1774 in Turciansky Michal
        > > Yanik -- giving birth in 1705 in Polerieka
        > >
        > > Kovaseje (sometimes ege) -- 1728 married in Turciansky Michal (I
        > > don't know if
        > > she had any brothers or if her father had any brothers)
        > >
        > > Are you suggesting that ege is an obsolete version of ik and that
        > > ege evolved
        > > into ik in the same family? If so, I have no evidence of that.
        > >
        > > Margo
        > >
        > > ________________________________
        > > From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@... <mailto:kozlay%40verizon.net> <mailto:kozlay
        > %40verizon.net> >
        > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS
        > > %40yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Sun, August 29, 2010 2:58:13 PM
        > > Subject: [S-R] Variations of -ik
        > >
        > > Has anyone encountered variations of the –ik name suffix in old (1
        > 7t
        > > h & 18th
        > > centuries) records. I would be especially interested in suffixes
        > > similar to
        > > –egh or –ege. I have found such spellings in Turóocz/Turiec and
        > > suspect they
        > > are obsolete spelling variations but would love to see some
        > > confirmation.
        > >
        > > Janet
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >

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