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RE: [S-R] Mulberry Bush-Names

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  • Janet Kozlay
    The use of junior and senior in Latin records can be to distinguish different branches of a family. I have seen this in noble families from old Turocz
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 15, 2010
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      The use of junior and senior in Latin records can be to distinguish
      different branches of a family. I have seen this in noble families from old
      Turocz (Turiec), namely Kossuth and Ruttkay. The Ruttkay family also used
      prenames to differentiate branches. What makes it really hard is that none
      of these distinguishing designations are used consistently in the records,
      so you can never be absolutely sure what branch you are looking at unless
      the designation is specified. Both of these families were very old and very
      large.



      In the Hungarian records, "Ifj" In front of the name stands for "ifjabb" and
      is used just as we use "Jr." "Idosebb" is corresponding word for "senior."



      Janet



      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Julie Michutka
      Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 11:34 AM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [S-R] Mulberry Bush-Names






      On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:42 PM, Michael Mojher wrote:

      > The one thing I have found missing is our equivalent to Junior /
      > Jr. in
      > any records. I wondered if there was possibly something like that
      > used in a
      > conversation as a means to tell the father from the son or the
      > daughter from
      > the mother of the same given name. If any of our Slovak members can
      > answer
      > this question it would be appreciated.

      I have occasionally seen in Slovak parish records, in the ones written
      in Latin anyway, the designation "junior." I don't know that it would
      be used in everyday conversation to distinguish father from son; I'm
      not knowledgeable about that. (Seems to me I've seen similar use for
      mother/daughter of same name, in Slovak records, but I don't remember
      exactly how it was handled.)

      In colonial American records, "junior" can be used to designate the
      younger of two men of the same name in the same area, not necessarily
      son of a man of the same name. I don't know if this applies to
      European records, but I offer it as a reminder that we have to think
      about the contemporary use of terms, rather than our current use of
      terms.

      Just my two.... ok, no longer koruny, are we really going with the
      euro designations??

      Julie Michutka
      jmm@... <mailto:jmm%40pathbridge.net>





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Janet Kozlay
      I once ran across a village with what I thought was an interesting naming pattern. Looking at early records, I noted the usual common name of Maria in the
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 15, 2010
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        I once ran across a village with what I thought was an interesting naming
        pattern. Looking at early records, I noted the usual common name of Maria in
        the baptismal records. After a while I noted that no one was named Maria any
        more, but there were many named Marianna. Then Mariannas disappeared and
        Marias reappeared. Was this just a change in fashion and popularity? In
        looking further, it became clear that both names were used for the same
        person. Her baptismal record might call her Marianna while her marriage
        record said Maria.



        I have just located an explanation. In a Polish website it was noted that if
        a family wanted to baptize a daughter with the name "Maria," the priest
        would write "Marianna" in the church record because "Maria" was to be
        reserved only for the Virgin Mary. So to her family she was Maria, but
        officially she was Marianna. Evidently only one priest in the (Slovak)
        village I was looking at subscribed to this custom.



        Janet





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • lkocik@comcast.net
        John Great observation. Got me thinking; I have an illegitimate Amelia in my lineage. Only instance of that name anywhere in my line. Maybe it was felt the
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 15, 2010
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          John
          Great observation.
          Got me thinking;
          I have an illegitimate "Amelia" in my lineage. Only instance of that name anywhere in my line. Maybe it was felt the baby was an "outsider" and the mother didn't want to offend the family by using the usual and traditional family given names.This was in the mid 1800's when family values were tied to perception and keeping a certain status within your village. I noticed too, a lot of the illegetimate births in the LDS records of my ancestral villiage were given names that didn't fit the usual naming patterns. Maybe illegitimate children were more acceptable as long as they were designated as such, or as you say..."marked for life".
          I too was illigitimate and my first name is nowhere else in my lineage but my six siblings carry traditional family names.
          Thanks for your insight John.
          Larry Kocik----- Original Message -----
          From: John <johnqadam@...>
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 11:28:05 -0000 (UTC)
          Subject: [S-R] Re: Mulberry Bush-Names













          >>> All that said, my question about "Maria and Anna" is this. Why? Why name people & animals the same name over and over? <<<



          The short answer is "tradition".



          My observation is that on occasion a totally unique given name appears and when I glance at the relevent column in the church records, the child is almost always illegitimate -- and marked forever.








          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • lkocik@comcast.net
          Julie Your first paragraph is a truism for me also. Have you actually seen the name Polycarp ? In medicine the prefix poly is latin for many and carp could
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 15, 2010
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            Julie
            Your first paragraph is a truism for me also.
            Have you actually seen the name "Polycarp"?
            In medicine the prefix poly is latin for "many' and carp could be a less than desirable fish or maybe refers to the Carpathian area. I don't know if you were just being clever tying Polycarp to illigetimate births, but I was trying to be.
            Thank you.
            Larry Kocik----- Original Message -----
            From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 15:45:06 -0000 (UTC)
            Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Mulberry Bush-Names













            I've noticed that the names that are popular (ie names besides Maria


            and Anna, that occur with noticable frequency) will change over time


            within a village; I'll suddenly start seeing a bunch of Susannas, a


            few decades later they disappear but Barbaras pop up. I've also


            searched the same somewhat narrow time frame across several villages,


            and found that different villages/towns have different popular names.



            And yep, certain names often get attached to illegitimate children!


            Sometimes it's noticeably weird names like Polycarp, but sometimes


            it's a common (to us) name that only seems to be used for illegitimate


            kids.



            As for Maria and Anna getting used over and over, I wonder how many


            nicknames there are for each of these? Maris~a, Mas~a, Marka, .....


            Marinka? Maris~ka? Maris~inka? (ok, I definitely made up that last


            one)



            Julie Michutka
            jmm@...



            On Aug 15, 2010, at 7:28 AM, John wrote:



            >>>> All that said, my question about "Maria and Anna" is this. Why?


            >>>> Why name people & animals the same name over and over? <<<


            >


            > The short answer is "tradition".


            >


            > My observation is that on occasion a totally unique given name


            > appears and when I glance at the relevent column in the church


            > records, the child is almost always illegitimate -- and marked


            > forever.







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • William F Brna
            Polycarp is actually a Greek name, though I do not know the derivation, though I suspect it had nothing to do with a fish. I seem to recall a St.
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 15, 2010
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              "Polycarp" is actually a Greek name, though I do not know the
              derivation, though I suspect it had nothing to do with a fish. I seem to
              recall a St. Polycarpus, but I know nothing further about him.

              One of my cousin's daughters is named Marianna. I told her that I had a
              daughter named, Marian. She asked if her name was Marianna, but I told
              her it was Marian (basically the same but pronounced and spelled
              differently).

              Bill Brna

              On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 21:19:24 +0000 (UTC) lkocik@... writes:

              Julie
              Your first paragraph is a truism for me also.
              Have you actually seen the name "Polycarp"?
              In medicine the prefix poly is latin for "many' and carp could be a less
              than desirable fish or maybe refers to the Carpathian area. I don't know
              if you were just being clever tying Polycarp to illigetimate births, but
              I was trying to be.
              Thank you.
              Larry Kocik----- Original Message -----
              From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 15:45:06 -0000 (UTC)
              Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Mulberry Bush-Names

              I've noticed that the names that are popular (ie names besides Maria

              and Anna, that occur with noticable frequency) will change over time

              within a village; I'll suddenly start seeing a bunch of Susannas, a

              few decades later they disappear but Barbaras pop up. I've also

              searched the same somewhat narrow time frame across several villages,

              and found that different villages/towns have different popular names.

              And yep, certain names often get attached to illegitimate children!

              Sometimes it's noticeably weird names like Polycarp, but sometimes

              it's a common (to us) name that only seems to be used for illegitimate

              kids.

              As for Maria and Anna getting used over and over, I wonder how many

              nicknames there are for each of these? Maris~a, Mas~a, Marka, .....

              Marinka? Maris~ka? Maris~inka? (ok, I definitely made up that last

              one)

              Julie Michutka
              jmm@...

              On Aug 15, 2010, at 7:28 AM, John wrote:

              >>>> All that said, my question about "Maria and Anna" is this. Why?

              >>>> Why name people & animals the same name over and over? <<<

              >

              > The short answer is "tradition".

              >

              > My observation is that on occasion a totally unique given name

              > appears and when I glance at the relevent column in the church

              > records, the child is almost always illegitimate -- and marked

              > forever.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            • lkocik@comcast.net
              I m starting to become overbearing in the number of replies but this thread is extremely interesting. William; Do you know if in the following generations your
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 15, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                I'm starting to become overbearing in the number of replies but this thread is extremely interesting.
                William; Do you know if in the following generations your Ferenc~ik surname had different suffixes to designate one family of Jans from another. Maybe Frenc~ak or Frencova or even going to a derivitive of Francis?
                Thank you
                Larry Kocik

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: William F Brna <wfbrna@...>
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 17:18:26 -0000 (UTC)
                Subject: Re: [S-R] Mulberry Bush-Names

                It isn't only first names. My maternal grandfather's name was Jan
                Ferenc~ik. At the same time, in the same village, there were three other
                Jan Ferenc~iks.

                Willliam F. Brna

                On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 11:39:08 -0500 "Nancy Hayes"
                writes:

                I've also wondered why with all of the different first names in the
                world,
                why some nationalities and families would name their kids with the same
                first names; totally confusing for family history researchers.

                When I was researching my mom's Italian side of the family, I discovered
                that mom had been named after her grandmother, Emilia; through further
                research, I discovered that there were seven different Emilia's!

                Nancy

                From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
                On
                Behalf Of Diana Boggs
                Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 9:53 PM
                To: slovak-roots@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [S-R] Mulberry Bush-Names

                I am currently researching to write a history book about the Hungarian
                (smooth) Vizsla (National Dog of Hungary). Slovakia plays an unusual role
                in
                breed history. According to Count Bela Hadik the Magyars stopped over in
                the
                Carpathian mountains to form the breed before arriving on the Hungarian
                plains (romantic story, likely not accurate enough). It is a fact that
                breed
                pedigree credibility existed because of Slovakia after WWII & the initial
                sweep of the Russians killing 80percent of horse and dog breeding stock.
                The
                Slovakian registry (SPKP) was able to retain their 5-generation
                pedigrees,
                unlike the Hungarian Orzsagos Kennel Club whose records were forever
                lost.
                What seems to be also true is in "Magyar lore irony rides a mighty tall
                horse. Despite the pedigree credibility the Slovakian bloodlines
                contained
                the blood of two breeds as Slovakia is the birth of the Wirehaired
                Vizsla(Slovakian only) as well as the rebirth of the smooth Vizsla at the
                same time. Two breeds for the price of one. (wink)

                Like you, I am here to trace people (those who bred Vizslas), & also
                understand better the peoples of Slovakia, Czech Republic & Hungary.
                Unlike
                you, I also trace their dogs. Talk about a comprehensive headache.
                However,
                I can't tell you how many times I have thoroughly enjoyed the relating of
                your stories no matter the last or first name. I thank you for the
                stories
                of your past. I just wish the other European listservs were as good as
                this
                one. I find out the most intriguing things about all of central Europe
                from
                you guys going round and round the mulberry bush whether it be about
                names
                or whatever....

                The biggest problem in tracing the dogs is how central Europeans did
                their
                names & those Roman Numerals. From 1920-1945 there were at least XXX
                Ficko's
                with the registry adding roman numerals as they went. Due to inaccurate
                record-keeping & translation issues, meant it didn't matter what Ficko
                you
                were researching, your information was no better than its source, a
                source
                among sources they had no way to verify, made more difficult because of
                the
                little knowledge of local customs.The Hungarians and surrounding areas
                did
                this (same name, different dog, different numerals, multiple countries) a
                lot. It happens often that all of the Ficko's 1920-1945 in Yugoslavia,
                Romania, Czechoslovakian, Hungary, Austria could have XXX Ficko's apiece
                and
                none of those dogs being the same Ficko as somewhere else. In the central
                region of Europe it is possible that there could be a fifty to a hundred
                different dogs named Ficko at any given time. grrrrrrr

                When I see the name Ficko, as a researcher, I almost fall from my pc
                chair.
                That is IMpossible to research but you certainly do learn a lot more
                trying
                to do so. NOW you guys tell me that Slovakian (other ethnics are likely
                to
                do similar things) like families should have an Anna AND a Maria?
                ARGHHHHHHHH !!!

                I wonder how many central European people Anna's there have been?

                All that said, my question about "Maria and Anna" is this. Why? Why name
                people & animals the same name over and over? At least dogs get Roman
                Numerals behind their names.dlb

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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              • William F Brna
                Polycarp was a Saint and Bishop of Smyrna, He was martyred. He lived from about 69 to 155. Also, poli is Greek not Latin. Bill Brna On Sun, 15 Aug 2010
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 15, 2010
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                  Polycarp was a Saint and Bishop of Smyrna, He was martyred. He lived
                  from about 69 to 155. Also, "poli" is Greek not Latin.

                  Bill Brna

                  On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 21:19:24 +0000 (UTC) lkocik@... writes:

                  Julie
                  Your first paragraph is a truism for me also.
                  Have you actually seen the name "Polycarp"?
                  In medicine the prefix poly is latin for "many' and carp could be a less
                  than desirable fish or maybe refers to the Carpathian area. I don't know
                  if you were just being clever tying Polycarp to illigetimate births, but
                  I was trying to be.
                  Thank you.
                  Larry Kocik----- Original Message -----
                  From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 15:45:06 -0000 (UTC)
                  Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Mulberry Bush-Names

                  I've noticed that the names that are popular (ie names besides Maria

                  and Anna, that occur with noticable frequency) will change over time

                  within a village; I'll suddenly start seeing a bunch of Susannas, a

                  few decades later they disappear but Barbaras pop up. I've also

                  searched the same somewhat narrow time frame across several villages,

                  and found that different villages/towns have different popular names.

                  And yep, certain names often get attached to illegitimate children!

                  Sometimes it's noticeably weird names like Polycarp, but sometimes

                  it's a common (to us) name that only seems to be used for illegitimate

                  kids.

                  As for Maria and Anna getting used over and over, I wonder how many

                  nicknames there are for each of these? Maris~a, Mas~a, Marka, .....

                  Marinka? Maris~ka? Maris~inka? (ok, I definitely made up that last

                  one)

                  Julie Michutka
                  jmm@...

                  On Aug 15, 2010, at 7:28 AM, John wrote:

                  >>>> All that said, my question about "Maria and Anna" is this. Why?

                  >>>> Why name people & animals the same name over and over? <<<

                  >

                  > The short answer is "tradition".

                  >

                  > My observation is that on occasion a totally unique given name

                  > appears and when I glance at the relevent column in the church

                  > records, the child is almost always illegitimate -- and marked

                  > forever.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                • William F Brna
                  Yes, I am aware of the aliases that were used for the different Jan Ferenc~iks. My grandfather s alias was Kornos . The other three Jan Ferenc~iks were
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 15, 2010
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                    Yes, I am aware of the aliases that were used for the different Jan
                    Ferenc~iks. My grandfather's alias was "Kornos". The other three Jan
                    Ferenc~iks were "Gresso", "Matilak" and "Kachut". I have not pursued the
                    derivations of the aliases, because, after all, I was only interested in
                    my maternal grandfather. My mother's baptismal record shows his name as
                    "Jan Ferenc~ik" and her oldest sister's baptismal record shows his name
                    as Jan Ferenc~ik Kornos". I may be going to Slovakia in December and I
                    will explore the source of the names.

                    Bill Brna

                    On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 21:39:26 +0000 (UTC) lkocik@... writes:

                    I'm starting to become overbearing in the number of replies but this
                    thread is extremely interesting.
                    William; Do you know if in the following generations your Ferenc~ik
                    surname had different suffixes to designate one family of Jans from
                    another. Maybe Frenc~ak or Frencova or even going to a derivitive of
                    Francis?
                    Thank you
                    Larry Kocik

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: William F Brna <wfbrna@...>
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 17:18:26 -0000 (UTC)
                    Subject: Re: [S-R] Mulberry Bush-Names

                    It isn't only first names. My maternal grandfather's name was Jan
                    Ferenc~ik. At the same time, in the same village, there were three other
                    Jan Ferenc~iks.

                    Willliam F. Brna

                    On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 11:39:08 -0500 "Nancy Hayes"
                    writes:

                    I've also wondered why with all of the different first names in the
                    world,
                    why some nationalities and families would name their kids with the same
                    first names; totally confusing for family history researchers.

                    When I was researching my mom's Italian side of the family, I discovered
                    that mom had been named after her grandmother, Emilia; through further
                    research, I discovered that there were seven different Emilia's!

                    Nancy

                    From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
                    On
                    Behalf Of Diana Boggs
                    Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 9:53 PM
                    To: slovak-roots@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [S-R] Mulberry Bush-Names

                    I am currently researching to write a history book about the Hungarian
                    (smooth) Vizsla (National Dog of Hungary). Slovakia plays an unusual role
                    in
                    breed history. According to Count Bela Hadik the Magyars stopped over in
                    the
                    Carpathian mountains to form the breed before arriving on the Hungarian
                    plains (romantic story, likely not accurate enough). It is a fact that
                    breed
                    pedigree credibility existed because of Slovakia after WWII & the initial
                    sweep of the Russians killing 80percent of horse and dog breeding stock.
                    The
                    Slovakian registry (SPKP) was able to retain their 5-generation
                    pedigrees,
                    unlike the Hungarian Orzsagos Kennel Club whose records were forever
                    lost.
                    What seems to be also true is in "Magyar lore irony rides a mighty tall
                    horse. Despite the pedigree credibility the Slovakian bloodlines
                    contained
                    the blood of two breeds as Slovakia is the birth of the Wirehaired
                    Vizsla(Slovakian only) as well as the rebirth of the smooth Vizsla at the
                    same time. Two breeds for the price of one. (wink)

                    Like you, I am here to trace people (those who bred Vizslas), & also
                    understand better the peoples of Slovakia, Czech Republic & Hungary.
                    Unlike
                    you, I also trace their dogs. Talk about a comprehensive headache.
                    However,
                    I can't tell you how many times I have thoroughly enjoyed the relating of
                    your stories no matter the last or first name. I thank you for the
                    stories
                    of your past. I just wish the other European listservs were as good as
                    this
                    one. I find out the most intriguing things about all of central Europe
                    from
                    you guys going round and round the mulberry bush whether it be about
                    names
                    or whatever....

                    The biggest problem in tracing the dogs is how central Europeans did
                    their
                    names & those Roman Numerals. From 1920-1945 there were at least XXX
                    Ficko's
                    with the registry adding roman numerals as they went. Due to inaccurate
                    record-keeping & translation issues, meant it didn't matter what Ficko
                    you
                    were researching, your information was no better than its source, a
                    source
                    among sources they had no way to verify, made more difficult because of
                    the
                    little knowledge of local customs.The Hungarians and surrounding areas
                    did
                    this (same name, different dog, different numerals, multiple countries) a
                    lot. It happens often that all of the Ficko's 1920-1945 in Yugoslavia,
                    Romania, Czechoslovakian, Hungary, Austria could have XXX Ficko's apiece
                    and
                    none of those dogs being the same Ficko as somewhere else. In the central
                    region of Europe it is possible that there could be a fifty to a hundred
                    different dogs named Ficko at any given time. grrrrrrr

                    When I see the name Ficko, as a researcher, I almost fall from my pc
                    chair.
                    That is IMpossible to research but you certainly do learn a lot more
                    trying
                    to do so. NOW you guys tell me that Slovakian (other ethnics are likely
                    to
                    do similar things) like families should have an Anna AND a Maria?
                    ARGHHHHHHHH !!!

                    I wonder how many central European people Anna's there have been?

                    All that said, my question about "Maria and Anna" is this. Why? Why name
                    people & animals the same name over and over? At least dogs get Roman
                    Numerals behind their names.dlb

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    __________________________________________________________
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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                  • Julie Michutka
                    ... Others have pointed out that this is Greek; I just want to give you a hint for the future: if you think it s Latin but it has a y, th, ph, or k in it, it
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 15, 2010
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                      On Aug 15, 2010, at 5:19 PM, lkocik@... wrote:
                      >
                      > In medicine the prefix poly is latin for "many'

                      Others have pointed out that this is Greek; I just want to give you a
                      hint for the future: if you think it's Latin but it has a y, th, ph,
                      or k in it, it came from Greek. May have later been adopted by Latin
                      (eg kalends), but it came from Greek.

                      Julie Michutka
                      jmm@...
                    • Joe Armata
                      From what I ve read, Polycarp is from Greek, meaning fruitful (many fruits). Joe
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 15, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        From what I've read, Polycarp is from Greek, meaning fruitful (many
                        fruits).

                        Joe
                      • Michael Mojher
                        Bill, The aliases you have found are very much like my Do names . What is discovered is each of these alias names was given to a branch of the family. This
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 15, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Bill,
                          The aliases you have found are very much like my "Do names". What is
                          discovered is each of these alias names was given to a branch of the family.
                          This made for an easy genealogy of the family when I met people in Slovakia.
                          I could as what there "Do" was and by the answer know exactly what branch of
                          the family they belonged to.
                          I hope that your experience is similar. It does make it possible to know
                          your family so much easier.
                          From my experience these names also appear in official records. Not
                          being aware of them we think they are another surname, which they are not.

                          --------------------------------------------------
                          From: "William F Brna" <wfbrna@...>
                          Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 2:59 PM
                          To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
                          Subject: Re: [S-R] Mulberry Bush-Names

                          > Yes, I am aware of the aliases that were used for the different Jan
                          > Ferenc~iks. My grandfather's alias was "Kornos". The other three Jan
                          > Ferenc~iks were "Gresso", "Matilak" and "Kachut". I have not pursued the
                          > derivations of the aliases, because, after all, I was only interested in
                          > my maternal grandfather. My mother's baptismal record shows his name as
                          > "Jan Ferenc~ik" and her oldest sister's baptismal record shows his name
                          > as Jan Ferenc~ik Kornos". I may be going to Slovakia in December and I
                          > will explore the source of the names.
                          >
                          > Bill Brna
                          >
                          > On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 21:39:26 +0000 (UTC) lkocik@... writes:
                          >
                          > I'm starting to become overbearing in the number of replies but this
                          > thread is extremely interesting.
                          > William; Do you know if in the following generations your Ferenc~ik
                          > surname had different suffixes to designate one family of Jans from
                          > another. Maybe Frenc~ak or Frencova or even going to a derivitive of
                          > Francis?
                          > Thank you
                          > Larry Kocik
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: William F Brna <wfbrna@...>
                          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 17:18:26 -0000 (UTC)
                          > Subject: Re: [S-R] Mulberry Bush-Names
                          >
                          > It isn't only first names. My maternal grandfather's name was Jan
                          > Ferenc~ik. At the same time, in the same village, there were three other
                          > Jan Ferenc~iks.
                          >
                          > Willliam F. Brna
                          >
                          > On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 11:39:08 -0500 "Nancy Hayes"
                          > writes:
                          >
                          > I've also wondered why with all of the different first names in the
                          > world,
                          > why some nationalities and families would name their kids with the same
                          > first names; totally confusing for family history researchers.
                          >
                          > When I was researching my mom's Italian side of the family, I discovered
                          > that mom had been named after her grandmother, Emilia; through further
                          > research, I discovered that there were seven different Emilia's!
                          >
                          > Nancy
                          >
                          > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
                          > On
                          > Behalf Of Diana Boggs
                          > Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 9:53 PM
                          > To: slovak-roots@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [S-R] Mulberry Bush-Names
                          >
                          > I am currently researching to write a history book about the Hungarian
                          > (smooth) Vizsla (National Dog of Hungary). Slovakia plays an unusual role
                          > in
                          > breed history. According to Count Bela Hadik the Magyars stopped over in
                          > the
                          > Carpathian mountains to form the breed before arriving on the Hungarian
                          > plains (romantic story, likely not accurate enough). It is a fact that
                          > breed
                          > pedigree credibility existed because of Slovakia after WWII & the initial
                          > sweep of the Russians killing 80percent of horse and dog breeding stock.
                          > The
                          > Slovakian registry (SPKP) was able to retain their 5-generation
                          > pedigrees,
                          > unlike the Hungarian Orzsagos Kennel Club whose records were forever
                          > lost.
                          > What seems to be also true is in "Magyar lore irony rides a mighty tall
                          > horse. Despite the pedigree credibility the Slovakian bloodlines
                          > contained
                          > the blood of two breeds as Slovakia is the birth of the Wirehaired
                          > Vizsla(Slovakian only) as well as the rebirth of the smooth Vizsla at the
                          > same time. Two breeds for the price of one. (wink)
                          >
                          > Like you, I am here to trace people (those who bred Vizslas), & also
                          > understand better the peoples of Slovakia, Czech Republic & Hungary.
                          > Unlike
                          > you, I also trace their dogs. Talk about a comprehensive headache.
                          > However,
                          > I can't tell you how many times I have thoroughly enjoyed the relating of
                          > your stories no matter the last or first name. I thank you for the
                          > stories
                          > of your past. I just wish the other European listservs were as good as
                          > this
                          > one. I find out the most intriguing things about all of central Europe
                          > from
                          > you guys going round and round the mulberry bush whether it be about
                          > names
                          > or whatever....
                          >
                          > The biggest problem in tracing the dogs is how central Europeans did
                          > their
                          > names & those Roman Numerals. From 1920-1945 there were at least XXX
                          > Ficko's
                          > with the registry adding roman numerals as they went. Due to inaccurate
                          > record-keeping & translation issues, meant it didn't matter what Ficko
                          > you
                          > were researching, your information was no better than its source, a
                          > source
                          > among sources they had no way to verify, made more difficult because of
                          > the
                          > little knowledge of local customs.The Hungarians and surrounding areas
                          > did
                          > this (same name, different dog, different numerals, multiple countries) a
                          > lot. It happens often that all of the Ficko's 1920-1945 in Yugoslavia,
                          > Romania, Czechoslovakian, Hungary, Austria could have XXX Ficko's apiece
                          > and
                          > none of those dogs being the same Ficko as somewhere else. In the central
                          > region of Europe it is possible that there could be a fifty to a hundred
                          > different dogs named Ficko at any given time. grrrrrrr
                          >
                          > When I see the name Ficko, as a researcher, I almost fall from my pc
                          > chair.
                          > That is IMpossible to research but you certainly do learn a lot more
                          > trying
                          > to do so. NOW you guys tell me that Slovakian (other ethnics are likely
                          > to
                          > do similar things) like families should have an Anna AND a Maria?
                          > ARGHHHHHHHH !!!
                          >
                          > I wonder how many central European people Anna's there have been?
                          >
                          > All that said, my question about "Maria and Anna" is this. Why? Why name
                          > people & animals the same name over and over? At least dogs get Roman
                          > Numerals behind their names.dlb
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > __________________________________________________________
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                          >
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                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                          > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                          > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                          > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                          > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Michael Mojher
                          Bill, In Slovakia I found that Marian is a male form of the name. From: William F Brna Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 2:34 PM To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 15, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Bill,
                            In Slovakia I found that Marian is a male form of the name.


                            From: William F Brna
                            Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 2:34 PM
                            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Mulberry Bush-Names



                            "Polycarp" is actually a Greek name, though I do not know the
                            derivation, though I suspect it had nothing to do with a fish. I seem to
                            recall a St. Polycarpus, but I know nothing further about him.

                            One of my cousin's daughters is named Marianna. I told her that I had a
                            daughter named, Marian. She asked if her name was Marianna, but I told
                            her it was Marian (basically the same but pronounced and spelled
                            differently).

                            Bill Brna

                            On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 21:19:24 +0000 (UTC) lkocik@... writes:

                            Julie
                            Your first paragraph is a truism for me also.
                            Have you actually seen the name "Polycarp"?
                            In medicine the prefix poly is latin for "many' and carp could be a less
                            than desirable fish or maybe refers to the Carpathian area. I don't know
                            if you were just being clever tying Polycarp to illigetimate births, but
                            I was trying to be.
                            Thank you.
                            Larry Kocik----- Original Message -----
                            From: Julie Michutka <jmm@...>
                            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 15:45:06 -0000 (UTC)
                            Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Mulberry Bush-Names

                            I've noticed that the names that are popular (ie names besides Maria

                            and Anna, that occur with noticable frequency) will change over time

                            within a village; I'll suddenly start seeing a bunch of Susannas, a

                            few decades later they disappear but Barbaras pop up. I've also

                            searched the same somewhat narrow time frame across several villages,

                            and found that different villages/towns have different popular names.

                            And yep, certain names often get attached to illegitimate children!

                            Sometimes it's noticeably weird names like Polycarp, but sometimes

                            it's a common (to us) name that only seems to be used for illegitimate

                            kids.

                            As for Maria and Anna getting used over and over, I wonder how many

                            nicknames there are for each of these? Maris~a, Mas~a, Marka, .....

                            Marinka? Maris~ka? Maris~inka? (ok, I definitely made up that last

                            one)

                            Julie Michutka
                            jmm@...

                            On Aug 15, 2010, at 7:28 AM, John wrote:

                            >>>> All that said, my question about "Maria and Anna" is this. Why?

                            >>>> Why name people & animals the same name over and over? <<<

                            >

                            > The short answer is "tradition".

                            >

                            > My observation is that on occasion a totally unique given name

                            > appears and when I glance at the relevent column in the church

                            > records, the child is almost always illegitimate -- and marked

                            > forever.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                          • Elaine
                            I ve seen ifjabb and idosebb many times in the records I m looking at for Kostolany. Sr. and Jr., as father and son, fit the context for them as far as I could
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 15, 2010
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                              I've seen ifjabb and idosebb many times in the records I'm looking at
                              for Kostolany. Sr. and Jr., as father and son, fit the context for
                              them as far as I could tell. Recently I've been looking at 1869 census
                              films for a series of towns a little to the west of Presov, in Fernye/
                              Jarovnice. I saw the terms used there, where there were multiple
                              families with the same surname in the same house or nearby houses
                              (presumably brothers, by their ages.) In this case, ifjabb was used as
                              "the elder" to distinguish cousins or uncles/nephews with the same
                              given names.

                              Elaine P

                              Sent from my iPhone

                              On Aug 15, 2010, at 3:25 PM, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@...> wrote:

                              > The use of junior and senior in Latin records can be to distinguish
                              > different branches of a family. I have seen this in noble families
                              > from old
                              > Turocz (Turiec), namely Kossuth and Ruttkay. The Ruttkay family also
                              > used
                              > prenames to differentiate branches. What makes it really hard is
                              > that none
                              > of these distinguishing designations are used consistently in the
                              > records,
                              > so you can never be absolutely sure what branch you are looking at
                              > unless
                              > the designation is specified. Both of these families were very old
                              > and very
                              > large.
                              >
                              > In the Hungarian records, "Ifj" In front of the name stands for
                              > "ifjabb" and
                              > is used just as we use "Jr." "Idosebb" is corresponding word for
                              > "senior."
                              >
                              > Janet
                              >
                              > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-
                              > ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                              > Behalf Of Julie Michutka
                              > Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 11:34 AM
                              > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [S-R] Mulberry Bush-Names
                              >
                              > On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:42 PM, Michael Mojher wrote:
                              >
                              > > The one thing I have found missing is our equivalent to Junior /
                              > > Jr. in
                              > > any records. I wondered if there was possibly something like that
                              > > used in a
                              > > conversation as a means to tell the father from the son or the
                              > > daughter from
                              > > the mother of the same given name. If any of our Slovak members can
                              > > answer
                              > > this question it would be appreciated.
                              >
                              > I have occasionally seen in Slovak parish records, in the ones written
                              > in Latin anyway, the designation "junior." I don't know that it would
                              > be used in everyday conversation to distinguish father from son; I'm
                              > not knowledgeable about that. (Seems to me I've seen similar use for
                              > mother/daughter of same name, in Slovak records, but I don't remember
                              > exactly how it was handled.)
                              >
                              > In colonial American records, "junior" can be used to designate the
                              > younger of two men of the same name in the same area, not necessarily
                              > son of a man of the same name. I don't know if this applies to
                              > European records, but I offer it as a reminder that we have to think
                              > about the contemporary use of terms, rather than our current use of
                              > terms.
                              >
                              > Just my two.... ok, no longer koruny, are we really going with the
                              > euro designations??
                              >
                              > Julie Michutka
                              > jmm@... <mailto:jmm%40pathbridge.net>
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Elaine
                              Michael, I ve seen you mention Do names before, and I wonder if you could give us some info about that term. I haven t seen it used before. Is it the word
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 15, 2010
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                                Michael,

                                I've seen you mention "Do" names before, and I wonder if you could
                                give us some info about that term. I haven't seen it used before. Is
                                it the word "Do" or does it stand for "Ditto" or something else?

                                Thanks,

                                Elaine

                                Sent from my iPhone

                                On Aug 15, 2010, at 7:06 PM, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@...>
                                wrote:

                                > Bill,
                                > The aliases you have found are very much like my "Do names".
                                > What is
                                > discovered is each of these alias names was given to a branch of the
                                > family.
                                > This made for an easy genealogy of the family when I met people in
                                > Slovakia.
                                > I could as what there "Do" was and by the answer know exactly what
                                > branch of
                                > the family they belonged to.
                                > I hope that your experience is similar. It does make it possible
                                > to know
                                > your family so much easier.
                                > From my experience these names also appear in official records. Not
                                > being aware of them we think they are another surname, which they
                                > are not.
                                >
                                > --------------------------------------------------
                                > From: "William F Brna" <wfbrna@...>
                                > Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 2:59 PM
                                > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Subject: Re: [S-R] Mulberry Bush-Names
                                >
                                >> Yes, I am aware of the aliases that were used for the different Jan
                                >> Ferenc~iks. My grandfather's alias was "Kornos". The other three
                                >> Jan
                                >> Ferenc~iks were "Gresso", "Matilak" and "Kachut". I have not
                                >> pursued the
                                >> derivations of the aliases, because, after all, I was only
                                >> interested in
                                >> my maternal grandfather. My mother's baptismal record shows his
                                >> name as
                                >> "Jan Ferenc~ik" and her oldest sister's baptismal record shows his
                                >> name
                                >> as Jan Ferenc~ik Kornos". I may be going to Slovakia in December
                                >> and I
                                >> will explore the source of the names.
                                >>
                                >> Bill Brna
                                >>
                                >> On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 21:39:26 +0000 (UTC) lkocik@... writes:
                                >>
                                >> I'm starting to become overbearing in the number of replies but this
                                >> thread is extremely interesting.
                                >> William; Do you know if in the following generations your Ferenc~ik
                                >> surname had different suffixes to designate one family of Jans from
                                >> another. Maybe Frenc~ak or Frencova or even going to a derivitive of
                                >> Francis?
                                >> Thank you
                                >> Larry Kocik
                                >>
                                >> ----- Original Message -----
                              • tomfgurka
                                MARION (with an O ) is a boy s name. MARIAN (with an A), is a girl s name. (at least in English) Tom _____ From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 15, 2010
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                                  MARION (with an O ) is a boy's name. MARIAN (with an A), is a girl's
                                  name.

                                  (at least in English)

                                  Tom



                                  _____

                                  From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  Behalf Of Michael Mojher
                                  Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 7:09 PM
                                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Mulberry Bush-Names





                                  Bill,
                                  In Slovakia I found that Marian is a male form of the name.

                                  From: William F Brna
                                  Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 2:34 PM
                                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Mulberry Bush-Names

                                  "Polycarp" is actually a Greek name, though I do not know the
                                  derivation, though I suspect it had nothing to do with a fish. I seem to
                                  recall a St. Polycarpus, but I know nothing further about him.

                                  One of my cousin's daughters is named Marianna. I told her that I had a
                                  daughter named, Marian. She asked if her name was Marianna, but I told
                                  her it was Marian (basically the same but pronounced and spelled
                                  differently).

                                  Bill Brna

                                  On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 21:19:24 +0000 (UTC) lkocik@...
                                  <mailto:lkocik%40comcast.net> writes:

                                  Julie
                                  Your first paragraph is a truism for me also.
                                  Have you actually seen the name "Polycarp"?
                                  In medicine the prefix poly is latin for "many' and carp could be a less
                                  than desirable fish or maybe refers to the Carpathian area. I don't know
                                  if you were just being clever tying Polycarp to illigetimate births, but
                                  I was trying to be.
                                  Thank you.
                                  Larry Kocik----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Julie Michutka <jmm@... <mailto:jmm%40pathbridge.net> >
                                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 15:45:06 -0000 (UTC)
                                  Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Mulberry Bush-Names

                                  I've noticed that the names that are popular (ie names besides Maria

                                  and Anna, that occur with noticable frequency) will change over time

                                  within a village; I'll suddenly start seeing a bunch of Susannas, a

                                  few decades later they disappear but Barbaras pop up. I've also

                                  searched the same somewhat narrow time frame across several villages,

                                  and found that different villages/towns have different popular names.

                                  And yep, certain names often get attached to illegitimate children!

                                  Sometimes it's noticeably weird names like Polycarp, but sometimes

                                  it's a common (to us) name that only seems to be used for illegitimate

                                  kids.

                                  As for Maria and Anna getting used over and over, I wonder how many

                                  nicknames there are for each of these? Maris~a, Mas~a, Marka, .....

                                  Marinka? Maris~ka? Maris~inka? (ok, I definitely made up that last

                                  one)

                                  Julie Michutka
                                  jmm@... <mailto:jmm%40pathbridge.net>

                                  On Aug 15, 2010, at 7:28 AM, John wrote:

                                  >>>> All that said, my question about "Maria and Anna" is this. Why?

                                  >>>> Why name people & animals the same name over and over? <<<

                                  >

                                  > The short answer is "tradition".

                                  >

                                  > My observation is that on occasion a totally unique given name

                                  > appears and when I glance at the relevent column in the church

                                  > records, the child is almost always illegitimate -- and marked

                                  > forever.

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                  __________________________________________________________
                                  Penny Stock Jumping 2000%
                                  Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today!
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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Michael Mojher
                                  Elaine, A couple of trips back to Slovakia I was at the City Hall in Plavnica. Plavnica is the home of my paternal grandmother. A mile and half away is Hromos,
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 15, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Elaine,
                                    A couple of trips back to Slovakia I was at the City Hall in Plavnica. Plavnica is the home of my paternal grandmother. A mile and half away is Hromos, the ancestral village of my paternal side of the family. Hromos is a village that is part of the Plavnica Roman Catholic parish.
                                    I was at the Plavnica City Hall trying to find some information about my respective families. Mary, the record registrar, asked me, "Do you know their Do?" That is how I heard the word "Do". My translator said do meant "of". So it made sense that these "Do" names referred to branches of the family. And that is what I was told.
                                    This made for an easy identification of different branches of the family. I could ask some one, "What is your "Do"?" And their answer would tell me what branch of the family they belonged to.
                                    That is the "Do" story.


                                    From: Elaine
                                    Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 5:46 PM
                                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [S-R] Mulberry Bush-Names



                                    Michael,

                                    I've seen you mention "Do" names before, and I wonder if you could
                                    give us some info about that term. I haven't seen it used before. Is
                                    it the word "Do" or does it stand for "Ditto" or something else?

                                    Thanks,

                                    Elaine

                                    Sent from my iPhone

                                    On Aug 15, 2010, at 7:06 PM, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@...>
                                    wrote:

                                    > Bill,
                                    > The aliases you have found are very much like my "Do names".
                                    > What is
                                    > discovered is each of these alias names was given to a branch of the
                                    > family.
                                    > This made for an easy genealogy of the family when I met people in
                                    > Slovakia.
                                    > I could as what there "Do" was and by the answer know exactly what
                                    > branch of
                                    > the family they belonged to.
                                    > I hope that your experience is similar. It does make it possible
                                    > to know
                                    > your family so much easier.
                                    > From my experience these names also appear in official records. Not
                                    > being aware of them we think they are another surname, which they
                                    > are not.
                                    >
                                    > --------------------------------------------------
                                    > From: "William F Brna" <wfbrna@...>
                                    > Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 2:59 PM
                                    > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Subject: Re: [S-R] Mulberry Bush-Names
                                    >
                                    >> Yes, I am aware of the aliases that were used for the different Jan
                                    >> Ferenc~iks. My grandfather's alias was "Kornos". The other three
                                    >> Jan
                                    >> Ferenc~iks were "Gresso", "Matilak" and "Kachut". I have not
                                    >> pursued the
                                    >> derivations of the aliases, because, after all, I was only
                                    >> interested in
                                    >> my maternal grandfather. My mother's baptismal record shows his
                                    >> name as
                                    >> "Jan Ferenc~ik" and her oldest sister's baptismal record shows his
                                    >> name
                                    >> as Jan Ferenc~ik Kornos". I may be going to Slovakia in December
                                    >> and I
                                    >> will explore the source of the names.
                                    >>
                                    >> Bill Brna
                                    >>
                                    >> On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 21:39:26 +0000 (UTC) lkocik@... writes:
                                    >>
                                    >> I'm starting to become overbearing in the number of replies but this
                                    >> thread is extremely interesting.
                                    >> William; Do you know if in the following generations your Ferenc~ik
                                    >> surname had different suffixes to designate one family of Jans from
                                    >> another. Maybe Frenc~ak or Frencova or even going to a derivitive of
                                    >> Francis?
                                    >> Thank you
                                    >> Larry Kocik
                                    >>
                                    >> ----- Original Message -----




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Michael Mojher
                                    Tom, My first translator and friend, Marian, very much a boy from Kosice would tell you what holds in English does not hold in Slovak. From: tomfgurka Sent:
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 15, 2010
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                                      Tom,
                                      My first translator and friend, Marian, very much a boy from Kosice would tell you what holds in English does not hold in Slovak.


                                      From: tomfgurka
                                      Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 6:52 PM
                                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: RE: [S-R] Re: Mulberry Bush-Names



                                      MARION (with an O ) is a boy's name. MARIAN (with an A), is a girl's
                                      name.

                                      (at least in English)

                                      Tom

                                      _____

                                      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                                      Behalf Of Michael Mojher
                                      Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 7:09 PM
                                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Mulberry Bush-Names

                                      Bill,
                                      In Slovakia I found that Marian is a male form of the name.

                                      From: William F Brna
                                      Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 2:34 PM
                                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Mulberry Bush-Names

                                      "Polycarp" is actually a Greek name, though I do not know the
                                      derivation, though I suspect it had nothing to do with a fish. I seem to
                                      recall a St. Polycarpus, but I know nothing further about him.

                                      One of my cousin's daughters is named Marianna. I told her that I had a
                                      daughter named, Marian. She asked if her name was Marianna, but I told
                                      her it was Marian (basically the same but pronounced and spelled
                                      differently).

                                      Bill Brna

                                      On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 21:19:24 +0000 (UTC) lkocik@...
                                      <mailto:lkocik%40comcast.net> writes:

                                      Julie
                                      Your first paragraph is a truism for me also.
                                      Have you actually seen the name "Polycarp"?
                                      In medicine the prefix poly is latin for "many' and carp could be a less
                                      than desirable fish or maybe refers to the Carpathian area. I don't know
                                      if you were just being clever tying Polycarp to illigetimate births, but
                                      I was trying to be.
                                      Thank you.
                                      Larry Kocik----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Julie Michutka <jmm@... <mailto:jmm%40pathbridge.net> >
                                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 15:45:06 -0000 (UTC)
                                      Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Mulberry Bush-Names

                                      I've noticed that the names that are popular (ie names besides Maria

                                      and Anna, that occur with noticable frequency) will change over time

                                      within a village; I'll suddenly start seeing a bunch of Susannas, a

                                      few decades later they disappear but Barbaras pop up. I've also

                                      searched the same somewhat narrow time frame across several villages,

                                      and found that different villages/towns have different popular names.

                                      And yep, certain names often get attached to illegitimate children!

                                      Sometimes it's noticeably weird names like Polycarp, but sometimes

                                      it's a common (to us) name that only seems to be used for illegitimate

                                      kids.

                                      As for Maria and Anna getting used over and over, I wonder how many

                                      nicknames there are for each of these? Maris~a, Mas~a, Marka, .....

                                      Marinka? Maris~ka? Maris~inka? (ok, I definitely made up that last

                                      one)

                                      Julie Michutka
                                      jmm@... <mailto:jmm%40pathbridge.net>

                                      On Aug 15, 2010, at 7:28 AM, John wrote:

                                      >>>> All that said, my question about "Maria and Anna" is this. Why?

                                      >>>> Why name people & animals the same name over and over? <<<

                                      >

                                      > The short answer is "tradition".

                                      >

                                      > My observation is that on occasion a totally unique given name

                                      > appears and when I glance at the relevent column in the church

                                      > records, the child is almost always illegitimate -- and marked

                                      > forever.

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                                    • Elaine
                                      Thanks, Michael, I ve just learned my first word in Slovak! Elaine Sent from my iPhone On Aug 15, 2010, at 8:56 PM, Michael Mojher ...
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Aug 15, 2010
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                                        Thanks, Michael, I've just learned my first word in Slovak!

                                        Elaine

                                        Sent from my iPhone

                                        On Aug 15, 2010, at 8:56 PM, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@...>
                                        wrote:

                                        > Elaine,
                                        > A couple of trips back to Slovakia I was at the City Hall in
                                        > Plavnica. Plavnica is the home of my paternal grandmother. A mile
                                        > and half away is Hromos, the ancestral village of my paternal side
                                        > of the family. Hromos is a village that is part of the Plavnica
                                        > Roman Catholic parish.
                                        > I was at the Plavnica City Hall trying to find some information
                                        > about my respective families. Mary, the record registrar, asked me,
                                        > "Do you know their Do?" That is how I heard the word "Do". My
                                        > translator said do meant "of". So it made sense that these "Do"
                                        > names referred to branches of the family. And that is what I was told.
                                        > This made for an easy identification of different branches of the
                                        > family. I could ask some one, "What is your "Do"?" And their answer
                                        > would tell me what branch of the family they belonged to.
                                        > That is the "Do" story.
                                        >
                                        > From: Elaine
                                        > Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 5:46 PM
                                        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: Re: [S-R] Mulberry Bush-Names
                                        >
                                        > Michael,
                                        >
                                        > I've seen you mention "Do" names before, and I wonder if you could
                                        > give us some info about that term. I haven't seen it used before. Is
                                        > it the word "Do" or does it stand for "Ditto" or something else?
                                        >
                                        > Thanks,
                                        >
                                        > Elaine
                                        >
                                        > Sent from my iPhone
                                        >
                                        > On Aug 15, 2010, at 7:06 PM, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@...>
                                        > wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > Bill,
                                        > > The aliases you have found are very much like my "Do names".
                                        > > What is
                                        > > discovered is each of these alias names was given to a branch of the
                                        > > family.
                                        > > This made for an easy genealogy of the family when I met people in
                                        > > Slovakia.
                                        > > I could as what there "Do" was and by the answer know exactly what
                                        > > branch of
                                        > > the family they belonged to.
                                        > > I hope that your experience is similar. It does make it possible
                                        > > to know
                                        > > your family so much easier.
                                        > > From my experience these names also appear in official records. Not
                                        > > being aware of them we think they are another surname, which they
                                        > > are not.
                                        > >
                                        > > --------------------------------------------------
                                        > > From: "William F Brna" <wfbrna@...>
                                        > > Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 2:59 PM
                                        > > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Mulberry Bush-Names
                                        > >
                                        > >> Yes, I am aware of the aliases that were used for the different Jan
                                        > >> Ferenc~iks. My grandfather's alias was "Kornos". The other three
                                        > >> Jan
                                        > >> Ferenc~iks were "Gresso", "Matilak" and "Kachut". I have not
                                        > >> pursued the
                                        > >> derivations of the aliases, because, after all, I was only
                                        > >> interested in
                                        > >> my maternal grandfather. My mother's baptismal record shows his
                                        > >> name as
                                        > >> "Jan Ferenc~ik" and her oldest sister's baptismal record shows his
                                        > >> name
                                        > >> as Jan Ferenc~ik Kornos". I may be going to Slovakia in December
                                        > >> and I
                                        > >> will explore the source of the names.
                                        > >>
                                        > >> Bill Brna
                                        > >>
                                        > >> On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 21:39:26 +0000 (UTC) lkocik@... writes:
                                        > >>
                                        > >> I'm starting to become overbearing in the number of replies but
                                        > this
                                        > >> thread is extremely interesting.
                                        > >> William; Do you know if in the following generations your Ferenc~ik
                                        > >> surname had different suffixes to designate one family of Jans from
                                        > >> another. Maybe Frenc~ak or Frencova or even going to a derivitive
                                        > of
                                        > >> Francis?
                                        > >> Thank you
                                        > >> Larry Kocik
                                        > >>
                                        > >> ----- Original Message -----
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >


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