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[S-R] Re: Help with a town name

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  • Ron
    You are getting closer, and it is a fasinatingly complex story, but ... is not right; the split took place between 600 & 1000 AD & the Greek Catholic /
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 5, 2010
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      You are getting closer, and it is a fasinatingly complex story, but
      >>a church that had it's origins in the eastern part of the Roman Empire, but refused to join the Eastern Orthodox Church after the East-West Schism.<<
      is not right; the split took place between 600 & 1000 AD & the Greek Catholic / Byzantine / Uniate Church was founded about 1560. All approximate dates, and I would say the founding was political because the Austrian emperor was more Catholic than the Pope and he didn't like his Orthodox subjects praying for the health of the Orthodox Russian Tsar. But then read on, the disputes carried over into America and into further politics in the 1880's, 1910's, and around 1930...


      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "pstupak" <stupak@...> wrote:
      >
      > And a few hours later I have learned more about the Greek Catholic Church that practices the Byzantine rite, in lieu of the Latin rite, but remains part of the Holy See and considered in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church. So for those who may uncover a Greek Catholic background in your own family this does not mean your family is Greek -- rather it means that the family worshiped in a church that had it's origins in the eastern part of the Roman Empire, but refused to join the Eastern Orthodox Church after the East-West Schism. Fascinating stuff.
      >
      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "pstupak" <stupak@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Good eye Samuel! I saw the R__ before the Catholic under Mathias Sztupak and assumed he was Roman Catholic. But no, if I looked at everything there it clearly reads: "Gr. rit. Cath." or Greek ritual Catholic.
      > >
      > > This is an incredible find. My grandfather and great grandfather had a falling out before my father or uncles/aunts were born. So what we knew of the family came from the little we knew through my grandfather ("they came from Czechoslovakia"), and we assumed they were all Roman Catholic as my grandfather had entered the seminary, left to marry my grandmother, and all the kids were raised strict Roman Catholic. To learn that the Stupaks are in fact at least 1/16th Greek and the strong Roman Catholic comes from our great great grandmother is certainly an incredible revelation.
      > >
      > > Thanks to everyone for their help on this. As is so often the case, one answer has led to ten questions.
      > >
      > > -Phil
      > >
      > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Samuel Ontko <smontko@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I believe the marriage record indicates that he was Greek Catholic so
      > > > the Porac church records should be your next adventure. I have looked at
      > > > those before.
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Janet Kozlay
      I have noted in passing that several of you are misspelling the name of Csepanfalu, which may cause you some unwarranted difficulty. Cs is a Hungarian
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 5, 2010
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        I have noted in passing that several of you are misspelling the name of
        Csepanfalu, which may cause you some unwarranted difficulty. "Cs" is a
        Hungarian letter, pronounced "ch."



        Janet





        From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of CurtB
        Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 2:11 PM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [S-R] Re: Help with a town name





        Note that it is not Sontagsgrun, But Sontagsgrund, more than likely a German
        name for the town or area.

        Curt B.

        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
        , "pstupak" <stupak@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thanks Samuel! The Porac location almost provides more questions than
        > answers. I see that around this time Porac was over 92% Greek Catholic,
        which either means my gg grandfather was one of a few non-Greeks or I have a
        lot more exploring to do.
        >
        > Sonntagsgrun, based on my limited German, means Sunday Green, but it seems
        odd to me that both Mathias and Maria would have that listed below their
        town name. Does anyone have thoughts on this?
        >
        > Also, I think the Markusfalu/Cespanfalu listing is for the entry
        immediately above Maria's. Maria's is the fourth up from the bottom with the
        age of 27 listed two columns to the right of her town name. Her town entry
        may also be Cespanfalu, but the first two characters look different from the
        Cespanfalu listed above her entry. Maybe the priest's hand was a little
        shakier that Monday morning :)
        >
        > Again, I appreciate all the help in teasing out as much information as
        possible from this register!
        >
        > -Phil
        >
        > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> , Samuel Ontko <smontko@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Markusovce - Markusfalu
        > > Stefanovce - Cespanfalu
        > > Porac - Poracs
        > >
        > > Hercs_
        > >
        > > Sonntagsgrun?
        > >
        > >
        > > On 6/3/2010 10:38 PM, pstupak wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Earlier today I my records finally arrived at my local LDS family
        > > > research center, and I was able to look at my g g grandparents'
        marriage
        > > > record. Quite exciting!
        > > >
        > > > Unfortunately, I am having a slight problem reading the town names for
        > > > each of them given the cursive and old-style lettering. I have
        uploaded
        > > > two files to the group site under Maria Czvengross nee Hercos, and I
        > > > would be greatly indebted if anyone would take a look and offer their
        > > > best guess as to the town name for both Mathias Sztupak and Maria
        > > > Czvengross nee Hercos (they are the 10th entry from June 8, 1885).
        Also
        > > > if anyone can make out the spelling of Maria's maiden name, that would
        > > > be greatly helpful -- we thought it was Hzreko, but that doesn't quite
        > > > jive with what is written.
        > > >
        > > > Many thanks!
        > > >
        > > > -Phil Stupak
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • pstupak
        I ve been doing quite a bit of research into the Byzantine Catholic Church and here is my basic understanding: Christianity was first brought to the Slavic
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 5, 2010
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          I've been doing quite a bit of research into the Byzantine Catholic Church and here is my basic understanding:


          Christianity was first brought to the Slavic people by two Greek brothers, Saints Cyril and Methodius, in the 9th Century. The brothers were from Thessaloniki, which was an important trade city in the Roman Empire, and part of the Eastern Roman Empire after the death of Emperor Theodosius I in 395. Therefore the Christianity administered by the Saints used the Greek rites common in the Eastern Roman Empire (later the Byzantine Empire), but a version that still held the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) as being superior to all other Bishops.

          Roughly two-hundred years later the Orthodox and Roman churches would split in 1054 during the Great Schism after the Pope refused to recognize the Bishop of Constantinople his equal in the same manner as the Emperors of the Eastern and Western Roman Empires were equals. The Slavic churches, despite practicing the Greek rites, remained loyal to the Pope and became known as Greek Catholic Churches.

          Through various papal edicts, the parishioners of the Greek Catholic Church (including the Slovak Greek Catholic Church) are deemed to be part of the Holy See and in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church despite practicing the Byzantine (or Greek) rites in lieu of the Latin rites. In theory this means that a Greek Catholic can receive communion in a Roman Catholic church, priests attend Roman Catholic seminaries, Latin rite priests are forbidden from attempting to convert Byzantine rite parishioners, and the different practices in the Greek Catholic community are recognized as legitimate by the Pope under the sui iuris doctrine. In reality this has been less successful at times, particularly in Slovakia, where the Latin rites have often been pressed on the Slovak Greek Catholic Churches. Today there is something of a resurgence of the Slovak Greek Catholic Church through strong backing by Pope Benedict.

          The principle differences between the two rites is that under the Byzantine rite parish priests can marry, leavened bread is used for the Eucharist, and the Niece Creed states that the Holy Spirit flows from the Father -- not the Father and Son. The act of parish priests marrying was discouraged in American Greek Catholic Churches, but it remains common in Slovakia.


          Again, I am just now researching this and I am probably missing many details.

          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <amiak27@...> wrote:
          >
          > You are getting closer, and it is a fasinatingly complex story, but
          > >>a church that had it's origins in the eastern part of the Roman Empire, but refused to join the Eastern Orthodox Church after the East-West Schism.<<
          > is not right; the split took place between 600 & 1000 AD & the Greek Catholic / Byzantine / Uniate Church was founded about 1560. All approximate dates, and I would say the founding was political because the Austrian emperor was more Catholic than the Pope and he didn't like his Orthodox subjects praying for the health of the Orthodox Russian Tsar. But then read on, the disputes carried over into America and into further politics in the 1880's, 1910's, and around 1930...
          >
          >
          > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "pstupak" <stupak@> wrote:
          > >
          > > And a few hours later I have learned more about the Greek Catholic Church that practices the Byzantine rite, in lieu of the Latin rite, but remains part of the Holy See and considered in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church. So for those who may uncover a Greek Catholic background in your own family this does not mean your family is Greek -- rather it means that the family worshiped in a church that had it's origins in the eastern part of the Roman Empire, but refused to join the Eastern Orthodox Church after the East-West Schism. Fascinating stuff.
          > >
          > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "pstupak" <stupak@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Good eye Samuel! I saw the R__ before the Catholic under Mathias Sztupak and assumed he was Roman Catholic. But no, if I looked at everything there it clearly reads: "Gr. rit. Cath." or Greek ritual Catholic.
          > > >
          > > > This is an incredible find. My grandfather and great grandfather had a falling out before my father or uncles/aunts were born. So what we knew of the family came from the little we knew through my grandfather ("they came from Czechoslovakia"), and we assumed they were all Roman Catholic as my grandfather had entered the seminary, left to marry my grandmother, and all the kids were raised strict Roman Catholic. To learn that the Stupaks are in fact at least 1/16th Greek and the strong Roman Catholic comes from our great great grandmother is certainly an incredible revelation.
          > > >
          > > > Thanks to everyone for their help on this. As is so often the case, one answer has led to ten questions.
          > > >
          > > > -Phil
          > > >
          > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Samuel Ontko <smontko@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > I believe the marriage record indicates that he was Greek Catholic so
          > > > > the Porac church records should be your next adventure. I have looked at
          > > > > those before.
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • pstupak
          Right, I think I solved some of my confusion regarding this. My g g grandmother was likely from Csepanfalu. They were married in Markušovce, which was
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 5, 2010
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            Right, I think I solved some of my confusion regarding this. My g g grandmother was likely from Csepanfalu. They were married in Markušovce, which was called Markus-Csepanfalu in Hungarian.

            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@...> wrote:
            >
            > I have noted in passing that several of you are misspelling the name of
            > Csepanfalu, which may cause you some unwarranted difficulty. "Cs" is a
            > Hungarian letter, pronounced "ch."
            >
            >
            >
            > Janet
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf Of CurtB
            > Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 2:11 PM
            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [S-R] Re: Help with a town name
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Note that it is not Sontagsgrun, But Sontagsgrund, more than likely a German
            > name for the town or area.
            >
            > Curt B.
            >
            > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
            > , "pstupak" <stupak@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Thanks Samuel! The Porac location almost provides more questions than
            > > answers. I see that around this time Porac was over 92% Greek Catholic,
            > which either means my gg grandfather was one of a few non-Greeks or I have a
            > lot more exploring to do.
            > >
            > > Sonntagsgrun, based on my limited German, means Sunday Green, but it seems
            > odd to me that both Mathias and Maria would have that listed below their
            > town name. Does anyone have thoughts on this?
            > >
            > > Also, I think the Markusfalu/Cespanfalu listing is for the entry
            > immediately above Maria's. Maria's is the fourth up from the bottom with the
            > age of 27 listed two columns to the right of her town name. Her town entry
            > may also be Cespanfalu, but the first two characters look different from the
            > Cespanfalu listed above her entry. Maybe the priest's hand was a little
            > shakier that Monday morning :)
            > >
            > > Again, I appreciate all the help in teasing out as much information as
            > possible from this register!
            > >
            > > -Phil
            > >
            > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> , Samuel Ontko <smontko@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Markusovce - Markusfalu
            > > > Stefanovce - Cespanfalu
            > > > Porac - Poracs
            > > >
            > > > Hercs_
            > > >
            > > > Sonntagsgrun?
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > On 6/3/2010 10:38 PM, pstupak wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Earlier today I my records finally arrived at my local LDS family
            > > > > research center, and I was able to look at my g g grandparents'
            > marriage
            > > > > record. Quite exciting!
            > > > >
            > > > > Unfortunately, I am having a slight problem reading the town names for
            > > > > each of them given the cursive and old-style lettering. I have
            > uploaded
            > > > > two files to the group site under Maria Czvengross nee Hercos, and I
            > > > > would be greatly indebted if anyone would take a look and offer their
            > > > > best guess as to the town name for both Mathias Sztupak and Maria
            > > > > Czvengross nee Hercos (they are the 10th entry from June 8, 1885).
            > Also
            > > > > if anyone can make out the spelling of Maria's maiden name, that would
            > > > > be greatly helpful -- we thought it was Hzreko, but that doesn't quite
            > > > > jive with what is written.
            > > > >
            > > > > Many thanks!
            > > > >
            > > > > -Phil Stupak
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Paul M. Paulochik
            Close but no banana. It was about 700 years after Cyril & Methodius that the term Byzantine Catholic Church started being used. As mentioned in a previous
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 5, 2010
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              Close but no banana. It was about 700 years after Cyril & Methodius that the
              term "Byzantine Catholic Church" started being used. As mentioned in a
              previous e-mail (sorry, don't know by who), it was a political decision by
              certain Orthodox churches in the Austrian Empire (run by the Hapsburgs) to
              transfer their loyalty from the Patriarchs of the Orthodox rites to the
              Pope. Besides the pressure from the Austrian emperor, there was the matter
              of the Patriarch in Moscow being used by the Tsars as an excuse for
              meddling, and it was becoming difficult for the local bishops to keep
              international politics out of the local churches. Lots of politics involved,
              and it took decades or centuries to reach the point, but for a quick
              overview, do a search on the Union of Brest (1595-96) - Wikipedia has a
              short-and-to-the point version, and there are many other articles out there
              that give all sorts of details. Problem is, most of them assume you already
              know what they're talking about - a style historians use that frustrates the
              hell out of me.


              -----Original Message-----
              From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of pstupak
              Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 2:59 PM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [S-R] Re: Help with a town name

              I've been doing quite a bit of research into the Byzantine Catholic Church
              and here is my basic understanding:


              Christianity was first brought to the Slavic people by two Greek brothers,
              Saints Cyril and Methodius, in the 9th Century. The brothers were from
              Thessaloniki, which was an important trade city in the Roman Empire, and
              part of the Eastern Roman Empire after the death of Emperor Theodosius I in
              395. Therefore the Christianity administered by the Saints used the Greek
              rites common in the Eastern Roman Empire (later the Byzantine Empire), but a
              version that still held the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) as being superior to
              all other Bishops.

              Roughly two-hundred years later the Orthodox and Roman churches would split
              in 1054 during the Great Schism after the Pope refused to recognize the
              Bishop of Constantinople his equal in the same manner as the Emperors of the
              Eastern and Western Roman Empires were equals. The Slavic churches, despite
              practicing the Greek rites, remained loyal to the Pope and became known as
              Greek Catholic Churches.

              Through various papal edicts, the parishioners of the Greek Catholic Church
              (including the Slovak Greek Catholic Church) are deemed to be part of the
              Holy See and in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church despite
              practicing the Byzantine (or Greek) rites in lieu of the Latin rites. In
              theory this means that a Greek Catholic can receive communion in a Roman
              Catholic church, priests attend Roman Catholic seminaries, Latin rite
              priests are forbidden from attempting to convert Byzantine rite
              parishioners, and the different practices in the Greek Catholic community
              are recognized as legitimate by the Pope under the sui iuris doctrine. In
              reality this has been less successful at times, particularly in Slovakia,
              where the Latin rites have often been pressed on the Slovak Greek Catholic
              Churches. Today there is something of a resurgence of the Slovak Greek
              Catholic Church through strong backing by Pope Benedict.

              The principle differences between the two rites is that under the Byzantine
              rite parish priests can marry, leavened bread is used for the Eucharist, and
              the Niece Creed states that the Holy Spirit flows from the Father -- not the
              Father and Son. The act of parish priests marrying was discouraged in
              American Greek Catholic Churches, but it remains common in Slovakia.


              Again, I am just now researching this and I am probably missing many
              details.

              --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <amiak27@...> wrote:
              >
              > You are getting closer, and it is a fasinatingly complex story, but
              > >>a church that had it's origins in the eastern part of the Roman Empire,
              but refused to join the Eastern Orthodox Church after the East-West
              Schism.<<
              > is not right; the split took place between 600 & 1000 AD & the Greek
              Catholic / Byzantine / Uniate Church was founded about 1560. All
              approximate dates, and I would say the founding was political because the
              Austrian emperor was more Catholic than the Pope and he didn't like his
              Orthodox subjects praying for the health of the Orthodox Russian Tsar. But
              then read on, the disputes carried over into America and into further
              politics in the 1880's, 1910's, and around 1930...
              >
              >
              > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "pstupak" <stupak@> wrote:
              > >
              > > And a few hours later I have learned more about the Greek Catholic
              Church that practices the Byzantine rite, in lieu of the Latin rite, but
              remains part of the Holy See and considered in full communion with the Roman
              Catholic Church. So for those who may uncover a Greek Catholic background
              in your own family this does not mean your family is Greek -- rather it
              means that the family worshiped in a church that had it's origins in the
              eastern part of the Roman Empire, but refused to join the Eastern Orthodox
              Church after the East-West Schism. Fascinating stuff.
              > >
              > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "pstupak" <stupak@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Good eye Samuel! I saw the R__ before the Catholic under Mathias
              Sztupak and assumed he was Roman Catholic. But no, if I looked at
              everything there it clearly reads: "Gr. rit. Cath." or Greek ritual
              Catholic.
              > > >
              > > > This is an incredible find. My grandfather and great grandfather had
              a falling out before my father or uncles/aunts were born. So what we knew
              of the family came from the little we knew through my grandfather ("they
              came from Czechoslovakia"), and we assumed they were all Roman Catholic as
              my grandfather had entered the seminary, left to marry my grandmother, and
              all the kids were raised strict Roman Catholic. To learn that the Stupaks
              are in fact at least 1/16th Greek and the strong Roman Catholic comes from
              our great great grandmother is certainly an incredible revelation.
              > > >
              > > > Thanks to everyone for their help on this. As is so often the case,
              one answer has led to ten questions.
              > > >
              > > > -Phil
              > > >
              > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Samuel Ontko <smontko@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > I believe the marriage record indicates that he was Greek Catholic
              so
              > > > > the Porac church records should be your next adventure. I have
              looked at
              > > > > those before.
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >




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