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RE: [S-R] Was taking the mothers last name common in 1800? Richwald & Szinye

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  • Bill Tarkulich
    ... You need to be ***absolutely certain*** there were not two Maria K s in the same village. It happened so often that people had nicknames or alias to
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 25, 2010
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      > My husbands grandfather was Istvan Karabinyos b-1871 so states his baptism
      > record and his father was Andreas Karabinyos.
      >
      > I have seen the baptism record Andreas Karabinos Kovaly b-1832 and his
      > father was listed as Andreas Karabinos Kovaly.
      >
      > I have just now seen the birth record of the father Andreas Kovaly b 1807
      > his father was Joannis Kovaly and mother was Maria Karabinyos.

      > Strange how the name went back to Karabinyos. Perhaps I should look for a
      > remarriage to a Karabinos.

      You need to be ***absolutely certain*** there were not two Maria K's in
      the same village. It happened so often that people had "nicknames" or
      "alias" to keep them apart. Be VERY VERY careful.


      Lipovce is the present day name for SZINYE

      Bill
    • John/Cathy Cherry
      Thank you for the warning. I will keep looking to make sure who we are related to. Cathy To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com From: bill.tarkulich@iabsi.com Date:
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 25, 2010
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        Thank you for the warning. I will keep looking to make sure who we are related to.



        Cathy





        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        From: bill.tarkulich@...
        Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 18:32:08 -0500
        Subject: RE: [S-R] Was taking the mothers last name common in 1800? Richwald & Szinye







        > My husbands grandfather was Istvan Karabinyos b-1871 so states his baptism
        > record and his father was Andreas Karabinyos.
        >
        > I have seen the baptism record Andreas Karabinos Kovaly b-1832 and his
        > father was listed as Andreas Karabinos Kovaly.
        >
        > I have just now seen the birth record of the father Andreas Kovaly b 1807
        > his father was Joannis Kovaly and mother was Maria Karabinyos.

        > Strange how the name went back to Karabinyos. Perhaps I should look for a
        > remarriage to a Karabinos.

        You need to be ***absolutely certain*** there were not two Maria K's in
        the same village. It happened so often that people had "nicknames" or
        "alias" to keep them apart. Be VERY VERY careful.

        Lipovce is the present day name for SZINYE

        Bill






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • david1law@aol.com
        Dear Kathy: Bill is right on track. It has been my experience that the use of the compound name -- i.e. the use of an alias -- is to be able to
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 25, 2010
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          Dear Kathy:

          Bill is right on track. It has been my experience that the use of the
          compound name -- i.e. the use of an alias -- is to be able to differentiate
          between individuals with the same name in the same village or nearby
          villages, and to distinguish between members of the same family clan. I have found
          that an alias sometimes traces back to a mother maiden's name or a
          paternal grandmother's maiden name. I can speak from personal experience that it
          is exceeding important to be careful in your research because in my own
          experience, a cousin who was doing research linked our family to the wrong
          individual, and it was only after I did a cluster genealogy search (all
          individuals with the same surname) in the parish did I discover the truth. I do
          highly recommend the cluster genealogy approach because it can be helpful
          to not only confirm any prior results, but it also adds a lot of depth to
          the overall family history (i.e. number of children in each family, cousins,
          etc.). It takes more time, but it is definitely worth it, and it may lead
          to some very interesting discoveries.

          Best regards,

          David


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John/Cathy Cherry
          Hi David, Thank you for your imput. I will do a cluster genealogy. I want to make sure that we are connecting to the right person. Cathy To:
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 25, 2010
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            Hi David,



            Thank you for your imput. I will do a cluster genealogy. I want to make sure that we are connecting to the right person.



            Cathy



            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            From: david1law@...
            Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:32:20 -0500
            Subject: Re: [S-R] Was taking the mothers last name common in 1800? Richwald & Szinye





            Dear Kathy:

            Bill is right on track. It has been my experience that the use of the
            compound name -- i.e. the use of an alias -- is to be able to differentiate
            between individuals with the same name in the same village or nearby
            villages, and to distinguish between members of the same family clan. I have found
            that an alias sometimes traces back to a mother maiden's name or a
            paternal grandmother's maiden name. I can speak from personal experience that it
            is exceeding important to be careful in your research because in my own
            experience, a cousin who was doing research linked our family to the wrong
            individual, and it was only after I did a cluster genealogy search (all
            individuals with the same surname) in the parish did I discover the truth. I do
            highly recommend the cluster genealogy approach because it can be helpful
            to not only confirm any prior results, but it also adds a lot of depth to
            the overall family history (i.e. number of children in each family, cousins,
            etc.). It takes more time, but it is definitely worth it, and it may lead
            to some very interesting discoveries.

            Best regards,

            David

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Elaine
            David, I haven t heard about cluster genealogy. What is the technique, and how is it done? Thanks for sharing this method! Elaine Sent from my iPhone ...
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 25, 2010
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              David, I haven't heard about cluster genealogy. What is the technique,
              and how is it done?

              Thanks for sharing this method!

              Elaine

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Jan 25, 2010, at 6:32 PM, david1law@... wrote:

              > Dear Kathy:
              >
              > Bill is right on track. It has been my experience that the use of the
              > compound name -- i.e. the use of an alias -- is to be able to
              > differentiate
              > between individuals with the same name in the same village or nearby
              > villages, and to distinguish between members of the same family
              > clan. I have found
              > that an alias sometimes traces back to a mother maiden's name or a
              > paternal grandmother's maiden name. I can speak from personal
              > experience that it
              > is exceeding important to be careful in your research because in my
              > own
              > experience, a cousin who was doing research linked our family to the
              > wrong
              > individual, and it was only after I did a cluster genealogy search
              > (all
              > individuals with the same surname) in the parish did I discover the
              > truth. I do
              > highly recommend the cluster genealogy approach because it can be
              > helpful
              > to not only confirm any prior results, but it also adds a lot of
              > depth to
              > the overall family history (i.e. number of children in each family,
              > cousins,
              > etc.). It takes more time, but it is definitely worth it, and it may
              > lead
              > to some very interesting discoveries.
              >
              > Best regards,
              >
              > David
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • david1law@aol.com
              Dear Elaine: Cluster genealogy refers to researching the whole family cluster instead of just hop-scotching around the records and looking for one s
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 25, 2010
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                Dear Elaine:

                Cluster genealogy refers to researching the whole family cluster instead
                of just hop-scotching around the records and looking for one's ancestors.
                Once you have truly located the village of origin for your ancestors, and
                found some records relating to your ancestors, cluster genealogy takes it
                another step further and researches those records for ALL of the persons with
                the same surname (and all possible spelling variants thereof). It is
                basically a methodical approach to researching the church records, basically
                going over the records page by page, and writing down all of the occurrences
                of the surname in your database, and then only later correlating the
                information. It is definitely more time intensive, but because the research is
                more thorough, there is less likely to be mistakes (usually caused by
                assumptions), and therefore the results are more certain, and it also results in
                learning more about your extended family. I started to research my
                extending BALOGA (BALOG, BALOGH, and other variants thereof) in the SIROKE parish
                in the SARIS highlands (west of PRESOV) when there was confusion as to the
                identity of my great, great, great grandfather. There were two MATHIAS
                BALOGA's who were both married to women named ANNA, and by thoroughly going over
                the records, I was able to find the correct one (with some help also from
                my friend John Adam who looked over some records from the Hungarian census)
                and we were able to eliminate the one ANNA and the other records helped to
                corroborate the information and everything seem to fall right into place.
                In the process, I also learned that my great, great grandfather JAN BALOGA
                had been married again after my great, great grandmother SUSANNA TOMASOV
                died and through his two marriages, he had 17 children (many of whom died at
                a young age, quite common in the 1800's). By studying all of the BALOG
                records in the parish, I was able to get a better picture of the family
                history overall. It does take a lot of time initially, but the information then
                afterwards seems to fall readily into place. For example, I often found
                that the godparents were often the same for my ancestors and their siblings.
                The reason why I really like the cluster genealogy approach is that it
                provides more information overall about the family cluster, and the details
                emerge and often provide corroboration of the information, especially when
                there are multiple branches of the family clan (which often happens when the
                family has lived in the village for hundreds of years). Here are several
                articles about cluster genealogy:

                _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_genealogy_
                (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_genealogy)

                _http://genealogy.about.com/od/basics/a/cluster.htm_
                (http://genealogy.about.com/od/basics/a/cluster.htm)

                _http://www.genealogy.com/heard100302.html_
                (http://www.genealogy.com/heard100302.html)

                I hope that this helps.

                Best regards,

                David


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Bill Tarkulich
                Gee, I never knew what I did had a name! I would argue that sorting through all the records is the ONLY way to a bullet-proof family tree. As David capably
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 25, 2010
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                  Gee, I never knew what I did had a name!
                  I would argue that sorting through all the records is the ONLY way to
                  a bullet-proof family tree. As David capably points out, it uncovers
                  documentation errors, fills in the blanks, identifies migration
                  patterns, resolves ambiguities. It also leaves you with vastly more
                  questions, concerns, conflicts and mysteries than you started.

                  But more important than just a tree, it begins to paint the complexion
                  of the village, it's residents and your ancestors. It highlights the
                  struggles of daily life, including epedemics, childhood
                  disease,marriage customs, naming traditions. It paints a story about
                  your village. Every village was unique with it's own customs and
                  traditions.
                  This applies to to the majority of the 2500 villages of Slovakia. It
                  does not apply to cities and royal town, which had a vastly different
                  purpose and dynamic.
                  Bill

                  Sent from my iTouch



                  On Jan 25, 2010, at 10:43 PM, david1law@... wrote:

                  > Dear Elaine:
                  >
                  > Cluster genealogy refers to researching the whole family cluster
                  > instead
                  > of just hop-scotching around the records and looking for one's
                  > ancestors.
                  > Once you have truly located the village of origin for your
                  > ancestors, and
                  > found some records relating to your ancestors, cluster genealogy
                  > takes it
                  > another step further and researches those records for ALL of the
                  > persons with
                  > the same surname (and all possible spelling variants thereof). It is
                  > basically a methodical approach to researching the church records,
                  > basically
                  > going over the records page by page, and writing down all of the
                  > occurrences
                  > of the surname in your database, and then only later correlating the
                  > information. It is definitely more time intensive, but because the
                  > research is
                  > more thorough, there is less likely to be mistakes (usually caused by
                  > assumptions), and therefore the results are more certain, and it
                  > also results in
                  > learning more about your extended family. I started to research my
                  > extending BALOGA (BALOG, BALOGH, and other variants thereof) in the
                  > SIROKE parish
                  > in the SARIS highlands (west of PRESOV) when there was confusion as
                  > to the
                  > identity of my great, great, great grandfather. There were two
                  > MATHIAS
                  > BALOGA's who were both married to women named ANNA, and by
                  > thoroughly going over
                  > the records, I was able to find the correct one (with some help also
                  > from
                  > my friend John Adam who looked over some records from the Hungarian
                  > census)
                  > and we were able to eliminate the one ANNA and the other records
                  > helped to
                  > corroborate the information and everything seem to fall right into
                  > place.
                  > In the process, I also learned that my great, great grandfather JAN
                  > BALOGA
                  > had been married again after my great, great grandmother SUSANNA
                  > TOMASOV
                  > died and through his two marriages, he had 17 children (many of
                  > whom died at
                  > a young age, quite common in the 1800's). By studying all of the
                  > BALOG
                  > records in the parish, I was able to get a better picture of the
                  > family
                  > history overall. It does take a lot of time initially, but the
                  > information then
                  > afterwards seems to fall readily into place. For example, I often
                  > found
                  > that the godparents were often the same for my ancestors and their
                  > siblings.
                  > The reason why I really like the cluster genealogy approach is that
                  > it
                  > provides more information overall about the family cluster, and the
                  > details
                  > emerge and often provide corroboration of the information,
                  > especially when
                  > there are multiple branches of the family clan (which often happens
                  > when the
                  > family has lived in the village for hundreds of years). Here are
                  > several
                  > articles about cluster genealogy:
                  >
                  > _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_genealogy_
                  > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_genealogy)
                  >
                  > _http://genealogy.about.com/od/basics/a/cluster.htm_
                  > (http://genealogy.about.com/od/basics/a/cluster.htm)
                  >
                  > _http://www.genealogy.com/heard100302.html_
                  > (http://www.genealogy.com/heard100302.html)
                  >
                  > I hope that this helps.
                  >
                  > Best regards,
                  >
                  > David
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS
                  > -or- send blank email to SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo
                  > ! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Alan Antoska
                  David, Did your cluster research lead to a narrowing of the root stock or (as was my experience), a broadening of the root persons? cheers A ... From:
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 26, 2010
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                    David,
                    Did your cluster research lead to a narrowing of the root stock or (as was my experience), a broadening of the root persons?
                    cheers
                    A

                    --- On Tue, 26/1/10, david1law@... <david1law@...> wrote:


                    From: david1law@... <david1law@...>
                    Subject: Re: [S-R] Was taking the mothers last name common in 1800? Richwald & Szinye
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Received: Tuesday, 26 January, 2010, 2:43 PM


                     



                    Dear Elaine:

                    Cluster genealogy refers to researching the whole family cluster instead
                    of just hop-scotching around the records and looking for one's ancestors.
                    Once you have truly located the village of origin for your ancestors, and
                    found some records relating to your ancestors, cluster genealogy takes it
                    another step further and researches those records for ALL of the persons with
                    the same surname (and all possible spelling variants thereof). It is
                    basically a methodical approach to researching the church records, basically
                    going over the records page by page, and writing down all of the occurrences
                    of the surname in your database, and then only later correlating the
                    information. It is definitely more time intensive, but because the research is
                    more thorough, there is less likely to be mistakes (usually caused by
                    assumptions) , and therefore the results are more certain, and it also results in
                    learning more about your extended family. I started to research my
                    extending BALOGA (BALOG, BALOGH, and other variants thereof) in the SIROKE parish
                    in the SARIS highlands (west of PRESOV) when there was confusion as to the
                    identity of my great, great, great grandfather. There were two MATHIAS
                    BALOGA's who were both married to women named ANNA, and by thoroughly going over
                    the records, I was able to find the correct one (with some help also from
                    my friend John Adam who looked over some records from the Hungarian census)
                    and we were able to eliminate the one ANNA and the other records helped to
                    corroborate the information and everything seem to fall right into place.
                    In the process, I also learned that my great, great grandfather JAN BALOGA
                    had been married again after my great, great grandmother SUSANNA TOMASOV
                    died and through his two marriages, he had 17 children (many of whom died at
                    a young age, quite common in the 1800's). By studying all of the BALOG
                    records in the parish, I was able to get a better picture of the family
                    history overall. It does take a lot of time initially, but the information then
                    afterwards seems to fall readily into place. For example, I often found
                    that the godparents were often the same for my ancestors and their siblings.
                    The reason why I really like the cluster genealogy approach is that it
                    provides more information overall about the family cluster, and the details
                    emerge and often provide corroboration of the information, especially when
                    there are multiple branches of the family clan (which often happens when the
                    family has lived in the village for hundreds of years). Here are several
                    articles about cluster genealogy:

                    _http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Cluster_genealog y_
                    (http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Cluster_genealog y)

                    _http://genealogy. about.com/ od/basics/ a/cluster. htm_
                    (http://genealogy. about.com/ od/basics/ a/cluster. htm)

                    _http://www.genealog y.com/heard10030 2.html_
                    (http://www.genealog y.com/heard10030 2.html)

                    I hope that this helps.

                    Best regards,

                    David

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









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                  • david1law@aol.com
                    Dear A: I m not sure what you mean by root stock but if I understand correctly, as I went farther back in time, the branches of the family tree started to
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 26, 2010
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                      Dear A:

                      I"m not sure what you mean by "root stock" but if I understand correctly,
                      as I went farther back in time, the branches of the family tree started to
                      fall into place, so I would say that there was a "narrowing" of the root
                      stock. I hope that this helps.

                      Best regards,

                      David


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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