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Re: [S-R] AB Augsburger Bekenntnisses

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  • MaryLou
    If you look at the image I posted in the folder Hanusovce, the abbreviation llisted looks more like AH than AK but I am not very familiar with this form of
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 5, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      If you look at the image I posted in the folder Hanusovce, the abbreviation
      llisted looks more like AH than AK but I am not very familiar with this form
      of script.
      MaryLou

      -------Original Message-------

      From: treimer@...
      Date: 12/5/2009 1:14:38 PM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: Carl
      Subject: [S-R] AB Augsburger Bekenntnisses

      A.B., C.A. and A.C. would be the correct abbreviations for Lutherans in old
      Hungary, for Augsburger Bekenntniss in German(Augsburg Confession), and in
      Latin Confessio Augustana/Augustana Confessio. With C pronounced like a K,
      perhaps the writer spelled it that way? The reformed were H.B. (Helvetisches
      Bekenntnis) or C.H./H.C. (Confessio Helvetica/Helvetica Confessio) since the
      articles adopted in Hungary originated in Switzerland.

      Thomas

      ---- Carl <kotlarchik@...> wrote:
      > My family was Lutheran and I have hundreds of Lutheran church records of
      the Augsburg Confession and have never seen the designation of it as AK. It
      is typically "ag" and/or "ev". Sorry, but I don't know where Bill got his
      information or if it is correct.
      >
      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Tarkulich" <bill.tarkulich@...>
      wrote:
      > >
      > > AK = Augsburg Confession
      > >
      > >
      > > Bill
      > >
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
      On
      > > Behalf Of MaryLou
      > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 7:50 PM
      > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: [S-R] Readable images?
      > >
      > > I uploaded 2 pages of the Magyar census that I am trying to decipher. I
      > > have written some notes on this page but cannot really see or translate
      what
      > > the occupations and professions are. And this is the page with what
      looks
      > > like AH as a religion. Can anyone tell me if that is correct?
      > >
      > > MaryLou
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >



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    • Ben Sorensen
      Just looked at it, and Bill, unsurprisingly, is absolutely correct.   They are using a later form/ more latinized or latin influenced form of Gothic script,
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 5, 2009
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        Just looked at it, and Bill, unsurprisingly, is absolutely correct.   They are using a later form/ more latinized or latin influenced form of Gothic script, so small "r's" are going to look like "v." Also, K and H are going to be similar (Gothic makes a K and an R look very similar- you have to look for the "serif" at the top of the letter to be sure...), and they were definately using the abbreviation that Bill mentioned.
        If you reference that K with the H in Herman at the bottom, and you will see a difference in the "K" and "H" in this document.
         Ben




        ________________________________
        From: MaryLou <mlvc@...>
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sat, December 5, 2009 1:25:44 PM
        Subject: Re: [S-R] AB Augsburger Bekenntnisses

         
        If you look at the image I posted in the folder Hanusovce, the abbreviation
        llisted looks more like AH than AK but I am not very familiar with this form
        of script.
        MaryLou

        -------Original Message----- --

        From: treimer@nycap. rr.com
        Date: 12/5/2009 1:14:38 PM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
        Cc: Carl
        Subject: [S-R] AB Augsburger Bekenntnisses

        A.B., C.A. and A.C. would be the correct abbreviations for Lutherans in old
        Hungary, for Augsburger Bekenntniss in German(Augsburg Confession), and in
        Latin Confessio Augustana/Augustana Confessio. With C pronounced like a K,
        perhaps the writer spelled it that way? The reformed were H.B. (Helvetisches
        Bekenntnis) or C.H./H.C. (Confessio Helvetica/Helvetica Confessio) since the
        articles adopted in Hungary originated in Switzerland.

        Thomas

        ---- Carl <kotlarchik@zoominte rnet.net> wrote:
        > My family was Lutheran and I have hundreds of Lutheran church records of
        the Augsburg Confession and have never seen the designation of it as AK. It
        is typically "ag" and/or "ev". Sorry, but I don't know where Bill got his
        information or if it is correct.
        >
        > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, "Bill Tarkulich" <bill.tarkulich@ ...>
        wrote:
        > >
        > > AK = Augsburg Confession
        > >
        > >
        > > Bill
        > >
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com]
        On
        > > Behalf Of MaryLou
        > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 7:50 PM
        > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
        > > Subject: [S-R] Readable images?
        > >
        > > I uploaded 2 pages of the Magyar census that I am trying to decipher. I
        > > have written some notes on this page but cannot really see or translate
        what
        > > the occupations and professions are. And this is the page with what
        looks
        > > like AH as a religion. Can anyone tell me if that is correct?
        > >
        > > MaryLou
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >



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      • Bill Tarkulich
        Things are not always as they appear. Congratulations Ben, you are developing some of that insight that is essential to this line of work. Most certainly,
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 5, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          "Things are not always as they appear." Congratulations Ben, you are developing some of that insight that is essential to this line of work. Most certainly, in this case, archaic/obsolete/regional forms of handwriting are a major factor. Plus, an understanding of the forms of religion in a specific region is critical. While the above is certainly true of church records, it can equally be true of census. The person asked to take the census was often an "important" person in the village, a priest, minister or mayor.

          I often pause and do not provide every line of detail, because I want each of you to take some time to pursue independent research. Lucky for us, the tools and information are all within your reach.

          The other reason I pause is that each village and each scribe has intoned his (really, his) own spin on things. I cannot possible decode each of the more than 2,500 village scribes inner thinking or education. Remember, oftentimes each priest or minister is from and trained in a far-off monastery or seminary, and himself may not embrace the culture and education of the villages in which he ministers.

          Ben's response demonstrates important insight, blending the cultural, geographic, religious and educational aspects into a unique revelation.

          Remember also that Juraj Cisarak has a lot of information on priests.

          Keep up the good work.

          Regards,



          Bill


          -----Original Message-----
          From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Sorensen
          Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 2:39 PM
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [S-R] AB Augsburger Bekenntnisses

          Just looked at it, and Bill, unsurprisingly, is absolutely correct.�� They are using a later form/ more latinized or latin influenced form of Gothic script, so small "r's" are going to look like "v." Also, K and H are going to be similar (Gothic makes a K and an R look very similar- you have to look for the "serif" at the top of the letter to be sure...), and they were definately using the abbreviation that Bill mentioned.
          If you reference that K with the H in Herman at the bottom, and you will see a difference in the "K" and "H" in this document.
          �Ben




          ________________________________
          From: MaryLou <mlvc@...>
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sat, December 5, 2009 1:25:44 PM
          Subject: Re: [S-R] AB Augsburger Bekenntnisses


          If you look at the image I posted in the folder Hanusovce, the abbreviation
          llisted looks more like AH than AK but I am not very familiar with this form
          of script.
          MaryLou

          -------Original Message----- --

          From: treimer@nycap. rr.com
          Date: 12/5/2009 1:14:38 PM
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
          Cc: Carl
          Subject: [S-R] AB Augsburger Bekenntnisses

          A.B., C.A. and A.C. would be the correct abbreviations for Lutherans in old
          Hungary, for Augsburger Bekenntniss in German(Augsburg Confession), and in
          Latin Confessio Augustana/Augustana Confessio. With C pronounced like a K,
          perhaps the writer spelled it that way? The reformed were H.B. (Helvetisches
          Bekenntnis) or C.H./H.C. (Confessio Helvetica/Helvetica Confessio) since the
          articles adopted in Hungary originated in Switzerland.

          Thomas

          ---- Carl <kotlarchik@zoominte rnet.net> wrote:
          > My family was Lutheran and I have hundreds of Lutheran church records of
          the Augsburg Confession and have never seen the designation of it as AK. It
          is typically "ag" and/or "ev". Sorry, but I don't know where Bill got his
          information or if it is correct.
          >
          > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, "Bill Tarkulich" <bill.tarkulich@ ...>
          wrote:
          > >
          > > AK = Augsburg Confession
          > >
          > >
          > > Bill
          > >
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com]
          On
          > > Behalf Of MaryLou
          > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 7:50 PM
          > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
          > > Subject: [S-R] Readable images?
          > >
          > > I uploaded 2 pages of the Magyar census that I am trying to decipher. I
          > > have written some notes on this page but cannot really see or translate
          what
          > > the occupations and professions are. And this is the page with what
          looks
          > > like AH as a religion. Can anyone tell me if that is correct?
          > >
          > > MaryLou
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >



          ------------ --------- --------- ------

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          To unsubscribe from this group, go to http://www.yahoogroups
          com/group/SLOVAK- ROOTS -or- send blank email to
          SLOVAK-ROOTS- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links




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          ------------------------------------

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        • Ron
          I just want to reiterate that AK remains a legitimate alternative to those Thomas has proposed. After reading his post I went to Google.de and checked it out.
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 5, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            I just want to reiterate that AK remains a legitimate alternative to those Thomas has proposed. After reading his post I went to Google.de and checked it out. Between all of these postings on this topic, it is pretty well covered!

            Ron

            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:
            >
            > Just looked at it, and Bill, unsurprisingly, is absolutely correct.   They are using a later form/ more latinized or latin influenced form of Gothic script, so small "r's" are going to look like "v." Also, K and H are going to be similar (Gothic makes a K and an R look very similar- you have to look for the "serif" at the top of the letter to be sure...), and they were definately using the abbreviation that Bill mentioned.
            > If you reference that K with the H in Herman at the bottom, and you will see a difference in the "K" and "H" in this document.
            >  Ben
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: MaryLou <mlvc@...>
            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Sat, December 5, 2009 1:25:44 PM
            > Subject: Re: [S-R] AB Augsburger Bekenntnisses
            >
            >  
            > If you look at the image I posted in the folder Hanusovce, the abbreviation
            > llisted looks more like AH than AK but I am not very familiar with this form
            > of script.
            > MaryLou
            >
            > -------Original Message----- --
            >
            > From: treimer@nycap. rr.com
            > Date: 12/5/2009 1:14:38 PM
            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
            > Cc: Carl
            > Subject: [S-R] AB Augsburger Bekenntnisses
            >
            > A.B., C.A. and A.C. would be the correct abbreviations for Lutherans in old
            > Hungary, for Augsburger Bekenntniss in German(Augsburg Confession), and in
            > Latin Confessio Augustana/Augustana Confessio. With C pronounced like a K,
            > perhaps the writer spelled it that way? The reformed were H.B. (Helvetisches
            > Bekenntnis) or C.H./H.C. (Confessio Helvetica/Helvetica Confessio) since the
            > articles adopted in Hungary originated in Switzerland.
            >
            > Thomas
            >
            > ---- Carl <kotlarchik@zoominte rnet.net> wrote:
            > > My family was Lutheran and I have hundreds of Lutheran church records of
            > the Augsburg Confession and have never seen the designation of it as AK. It
            > is typically "ag" and/or "ev". Sorry, but I don't know where Bill got his
            > information or if it is correct.
            > >
            > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, "Bill Tarkulich" <bill.tarkulich@ ...>
            > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > AK = Augsburg Confession
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Bill
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > -----Original Message-----
            > > > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com]
            > On
            > > > Behalf Of MaryLou
            > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 7:50 PM
            > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
            > > > Subject: [S-R] Readable images?
            > > >
            > > > I uploaded 2 pages of the Magyar census that I am trying to decipher. I
            > > > have written some notes on this page but cannot really see or translate
            > what
            > > > the occupations and professions are. And this is the page with what
            > looks
            > > > like AH as a religion. Can anyone tell me if that is correct?
            > > >
            > > > MaryLou
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------ --------- --------- ------
            >
            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SLOVAK- ROOTS/
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, go to http://www.yahoogroups
            > com/group/SLOVAK- ROOTS -or- send blank email to
            > SLOVAK-ROOTS- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
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            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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          • Ben Sorensen
             _Plus, an understanding of the forms of religion in a specific region is critical. While the above is certainly true of church records, it can equally be
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 5, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
               _Plus, an understanding of the forms of religion in a specific region is critical. While the above is certainly true of church records, it can equally be true of census._


              Thank you Bill, I am seeing that my Historiology class (German and Slavic Genealogy) is not going to waste. :-) I should also point out that the understanding of the area has a "dead giveaway:" The most common forms of religion found there are LISTED IN THE HEADING. :-) It isn't always so easy, but one should also "be aware of his surroundings."

              This almost Gothic script shows two things- the person was familiar with Latin and had some Germanic-influenced schooling. I am glad that we are not deciphering English Secretary script.... that is far worse than Latin, fraktur, gothic....

              Ben


              ________________________________
              From: Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...>
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, December 5, 2009 5:20:23 PM
              Subject: RE: [S-R] AB Augsburger Bekenntnisses

               
              "Things are not always as they appear." Congratulations Ben, you are developing some of that insight that is essential to this line of work. Most certainly, in this case, archaic/obsolete/ regional forms of handwriting are a major factor. Plus, an understanding of the forms of religion in a specific region is critical. While the above is certainly true of church records, it can equally be true of census. The person asked to take the census was often an "important" person in the village, a priest, minister or mayor.

              I often pause and do not provide every line of detail, because I want each of you to take some time to pursue independent research. Lucky for us, the tools and information are all within your reach.

              The other reason I pause is that each village and each scribe has intoned his (really, his) own spin on things. I cannot possible decode each of the more than 2,500 village scribes inner thinking or education. Remember, oftentimes each priest or minister is from and trained in a far-off monastery or seminary, and himself may not embrace the culture and education of the villages in which he ministers.

              Ben's response demonstrates important insight, blending the cultural, geographic, religious and educational aspects into a unique revelation.

              Remember also that Juraj Cisarak has a lot of information on priests.

              Keep up the good work.

              Regards,

              Bill

              -----Original Message-----
              From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Ben Sorensen
              Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 2:39 PM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
              Subject: Re: [S-R] AB Augsburger Bekenntnisses

              Just looked at it, and Bill, unsurprisingly, is absolutely correct.�� They are using a later form/ more latinized or latin influenced form of Gothic script, so small "r's" are going to look like "v." Also, K and H are going to be similar (Gothic makes a K and an R look very similar- you have to look for the "serif" at the top of the letter to be sure...), and they were definately using the abbreviation that Bill mentioned.
              If you reference that K with the H in Herman at the bottom, and you will see a difference in the "K" and "H" in this document.
              �Ben

              ____________ _________ _________ __
              From: MaryLou <mlvc@earthlink. net>
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
              Sent: Sat, December 5, 2009 1:25:44 PM
              Subject: Re: [S-R] AB Augsburger Bekenntnisses


              If you look at the image I posted in the folder Hanusovce, the abbreviation
              llisted looks more like AH than AK but I am not very familiar with this form
              of script.
              MaryLou

              -------Original Message----- --

              From: treimer@nycap. rr.com
              Date: 12/5/2009 1:14:38 PM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
              Cc: Carl
              Subject: [S-R] AB Augsburger Bekenntnisses

              A.B., C.A. and A.C. would be the correct abbreviations for Lutherans in old
              Hungary, for Augsburger Bekenntniss in German(Augsburg Confession), and in
              Latin Confessio Augustana/Augustana Confessio. With C pronounced like a K,
              perhaps the writer spelled it that way? The reformed were H.B. (Helvetisches
              Bekenntnis) or C.H./H.C. (Confessio Helvetica/Helvetica Confessio) since the
              articles adopted in Hungary originated in Switzerland.

              Thomas

              ---- Carl <kotlarchik@ zoominte rnet.net> wrote:
              > My family was Lutheran and I have hundreds of Lutheran church records of
              the Augsburg Confession and have never seen the designation of it as AK. It
              is typically "ag" and/or "ev". Sorry, but I don't know where Bill got his
              information or if it is correct.
              >
              > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, "Bill Tarkulich" <bill.tarkulich@ ...>
              wrote:
              > >
              > > AK = Augsburg Confession
              > >
              > >
              > > Bill
              > >
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com]
              On
              > > Behalf Of MaryLou
              > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 7:50 PM
              > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
              > > Subject: [S-R] Readable images?
              > >
              > > I uploaded 2 pages of the Magyar census that I am trying to decipher. I
              > > have written some notes on this page but cannot really see or translate
              what
              > > the occupations and professions are. And this is the page with what
              looks
              > > like AH as a religion. Can anyone tell me if that is correct?
              > >
              > > MaryLou
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >

              ------------ --------- --------- ------

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              To unsubscribe from this group, go to http://www.yahoogroups
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              SLOVAK-ROOTS- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links

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