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Re: Mutnansky birth2 file

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  • Frank Kurchina
    ... a ... might have ... certificate. ... poor ... did know ... also. ... be of ... doing the ... information ... Születési anyakönyvi kivonat means Birth
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 25, 2000
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      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com, "Judy/Dick James" <jajames@c...>
      wrote:
      > Frank,
      >
      > Grandmother's name was Helen Mutnansky. We do not think that it was
      a
      > legitimate birth, but for the sake of the children were hoping it
      might have
      > been and that the their father's name would be listed on the
      certificate.
      > Thank you so much for your time and efforts in translating a very
      poor
      > copy. I appreciate it very much.
      >
      > My grandmother worked away from home as a house cleaner or maid. I
      did know
      > that she had worked in Vienna, but she may have worked in Budapest
      also.
      >
      > I will tell my cousins the part about their father's name. It will
      be of
      > interest to them. One of the granddaughters of Elmer Mutnansky is
      doing the
      > genealogy for their side of the family. She will appreciate the
      information
      > you have given.
      >
      > Thank you for such a quick response.
      >
      > Judy

      Születési anyakönyvi kivonat means Birth Certificate in
      Hungarian.

      As you wrote there appears to be something strange about it, such as
      the information is missing on both parents.

      Helen (E) is Helena, Ilona in Slovak and Ilona, Ilko in Hungarian.

      In Hungarian records the surname is listed first and then the given
      name.

      Mutnánsky, Ilona - so the mother on the certificate was named
      Helena.

      As you also wrote the copy is poor.

      The last line in document after the given name Elemér, looks to me
      like a surname, first name and a notation or a comment ?
      Perhaps your paper copy is more legible ?

      Surname First name Comment
      Il ? atán Ign ???? ______

      [Ignacs (H), Ignatius (L) ?]

      The seduction of a house maid by a male member of some household did
      occur in Wien, Budapest, or London, NYC, and other cities.

      The back of your document indicated the 1900 information was
      extracted from the Budapest City Archives in March 1946.
      WW 2 ended May 1945.

      Someone physically went to the city archives and had the birth
      information recorded.
    • Judy/Dick James
      Frank, Thank you again for all your effort in translating this document. The information you give about my Grandma s name clears up a lot for my family as we
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 25, 2000
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        Frank,
        Thank you again for all your effort in translating this document. The
        information you give about my Grandma's name clears up a lot for my family
        as we did not know why sometimes she was called Helen, Helena, Helene, and
        Ilka (Ilko). Now it is clear.

        As to the last 2 lines on the original copy, I will try to type it as I see
        it.
        A gyermek vallasa: "romai koiteulilis" utoneve: "Elemer
        Hala(n)or(r) Ign??er sl..a?di(?l) or (d)

        the printing is clear enough, I just can't interpret the handwriting. Sorry.

        I find it very intriguing that someone went there in person to register the
        birth. How would a person do that? What evidence or record would have been
        necessary. I know my uncle did not go in person as he would have never had
        the money for the trip and to the best of our knowledge the family was not
        in correspondence with any relatives.

        I am a lover of mysteries and I find genealogy to be better than any mystery
        novel.
        Thank you for helping to bring these documents to life for me.

        Judy

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@...>
        To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 4:12 AM
        Subject: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Re: Mutnansky birth2 file


        >
        > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com, "Judy/Dick James" <jajames@c...>
        > wrote:
        > > Frank,
        > >
        > > Grandmother's name was Helen Mutnansky. We do not think that it was
        > a
        > > legitimate birth, but for the sake of the children were hoping it
        > might have
        > > been and that the their father's name would be listed on the
        > certificate.
        > > Thank you so much for your time and efforts in translating a very
        > poor
        > > copy. I appreciate it very much.
        > >
        > > My grandmother worked away from home as a house cleaner or maid. I
        > did know
        > > that she had worked in Vienna, but she may have worked in Budapest
        > also.
        > >
        > > I will tell my cousins the part about their father's name. It will
        > be of
        > > interest to them. One of the granddaughters of Elmer Mutnansky is
        > doing the
        > > genealogy for their side of the family. She will appreciate the
        > information
        > > you have given.
        > >
        > > Thank you for such a quick response.
        > >
        > > Judy
        >
        > Születési anyakönyvi kivonat means Birth Certificate in
        > Hungarian.
        >
        > As you wrote there appears to be something strange about it, such as
        > the information is missing on both parents.
        >
        > Helen (E) is Helena, Ilona in Slovak and Ilona, Ilko in Hungarian.
        >
        > In Hungarian records the surname is listed first and then the given
        > name.
        >
        > Mutnánsky, Ilona - so the mother on the certificate was named
        > Helena.
        >
        > As you also wrote the copy is poor.
        >
        > The last line in document after the given name Elemér, looks to me
        > like a surname, first name and a notation or a comment ?
        > Perhaps your paper copy is more legible ?
        >
        > Surname First name Comment
        > Il ? atán Ign ???? ______
        >
        > [Ignacs (H), Ignatius (L) ?]
        >
        > The seduction of a house maid by a male member of some household did
        > occur in Wien, Budapest, or London, NYC, and other cities.
        >
        > The back of your document indicated the 1900 information was
        > extracted from the Budapest City Archives in March 1946.
        > WW 2 ended May 1945.
        >
        > Someone physically went to the city archives and had the birth
        > information recorded.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Frank Kurchina
        ... document. The ... family ... Helene, and ... as I see ... handwriting. Sorry. Normally the line after utoneve: Elemer would have been (Megjeggyzes) -
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 25, 2000
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          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com, "Judy/Dick James" <jajames@c...>
          wrote:
          > Frank,
          > Thank you again for all your effort in translating this
          document. The
          > information you give about my Grandma's name clears up a lot for my
          family
          > as we did not know why sometimes she was called Helen, Helena,
          Helene, and
          > Ilka (Ilko). Now it is clear.
          >
          > As to the last 2 lines on the original copy, I will try to type it
          as I see
          > it.
          > A gyermek vallasa: "romai koiteulilis" utoneve: "Elemer
          > Hala(n)or(r) Ign??er sl..a?di(?l) or (d)
          >
          > the printing is clear enough, I just can't interpret the
          handwriting. Sorry.

          Normally the line after utoneve: Elemer would have been
          (Megjeggyzes) - observations, remarks.
          Just don't know.

          > I find it very intriguing that someone went there in person to
          register the
          > birth. How would a person do that? What evidence or record would
          have been
          > necessary.

          Perhaps her address in Budapest was a hospital, or a midwife ?
          Civil registration began in Hungary in 1895.

          I know my uncle did not go in person as he would have
          never had
          > the money for the trip and to the best of our knowledge the family
          was not
          > in correspondence with any relatives.

          No, you misunderstood what I wrote.
          The birth was registered at the Budapest city archives in 1906.

          Hungary had a 90 year disclosure rule which meant no records
          from 1900 would have been accessible in 1946.
          Someone went to city archives in March 1946 and got the copy of
          the recorded 1906 birth.
          You will note that a 194. decade form was used and the numeral
          4 is slashed and 1900 decade is written in, so it was a copy of the
          original.

          Where did this birth certificate copy originate ?

          In May 1945 my military unit crossed the Czechoslovakia border
          and I was stationed in Germany in 1946.
          Things were different after the war in Europe.
          Because of these conditions , many things that were illegal were
          possible. Money had little value and the standard currency was
          cigarettes.
          Expect conditions in 1946 were the same or worse in Hungary who
          also had been an Axis partner.
          Believe Hungary was a Soviet military zone back in 1946.

          > I am a lover of mysteries and I find genealogy to be better than
          any
          mystery
          > novel.
          > Thank you for helping to bring these documents to life for me.
          >
          > Judy
        • Judy/Dick James
          Frank, I can only guess that perhaps one of my Grandmother s relatives who stilled lived near Budapest got the copy and sent it to my uncle. I received a copy
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 25, 2000
          • 0 Attachment
            Frank,
            I can only guess that perhaps one of my Grandmother's relatives who
            stilled lived near Budapest got the copy and sent it to my uncle. I received
            a copy of his daughter when I started working on the family genealogy. I
            guess we will never know now.
            thanks again,
            Judy


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@...>
            To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 8:54 PM
            Subject: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Re: Mutnansky birth2 file


            > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com, "Judy/Dick James" <jajames@c...>
            > wrote:
            > > Frank,
            > > Thank you again for all your effort in translating this
            > document. The
            > > information you give about my Grandma's name clears up a lot for my
            > family
            > > as we did not know why sometimes she was called Helen, Helena,
            > Helene, and
            > > Ilka (Ilko). Now it is clear.
            > >
            > > As to the last 2 lines on the original copy, I will try to type it
            > as I see
            > > it.
            > > A gyermek vallasa: "romai koiteulilis" utoneve: "Elemer
            > > Hala(n)or(r) Ign??er sl..a?di(?l) or (d)
            > >
            > > the printing is clear enough, I just can't interpret the
            > handwriting. Sorry.
            >
            > Normally the line after utoneve: Elemer would have been
            > (Megjeggyzes) - observations, remarks.
            > Just don't know.
            >
            > > I find it very intriguing that someone went there in person to
            > register the
            > > birth. How would a person do that? What evidence or record would
            > have been
            > > necessary.
            >
            > Perhaps her address in Budapest was a hospital, or a midwife ?
            > Civil registration began in Hungary in 1895.
            >
            > I know my uncle did not go in person as he would have
            > never had
            > > the money for the trip and to the best of our knowledge the family
            > was not
            > > in correspondence with any relatives.
            >
            > No, you misunderstood what I wrote.
            > The birth was registered at the Budapest city archives in 1906.
            >
            > Hungary had a 90 year disclosure rule which meant no records
            > from 1900 would have been accessible in 1946.
            > Someone went to city archives in March 1946 and got the copy of
            > the recorded 1906 birth.
            > You will note that a 194. decade form was used and the numeral
            > 4 is slashed and 1900 decade is written in, so it was a copy of the
            > original.
            >
            > Where did this birth certificate copy originate ?
            >
            > In May 1945 my military unit crossed the Czechoslovakia border
            > and I was stationed in Germany in 1946.
            > Things were different after the war in Europe.
            > Because of these conditions , many things that were illegal were
            > possible. Money had little value and the standard currency was
            > cigarettes.
            > Expect conditions in 1946 were the same or worse in Hungary who
            > also had been an Axis partner.
            > Believe Hungary was a Soviet military zone back in 1946.
            >
            > > I am a lover of mysteries and I find genealogy to be better than
            > any
            > mystery
            > > novel.
            > > Thank you for helping to bring these documents to life for me.
            > >
            > > Judy
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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