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Re: Mutnansky birth2 file

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  • Frank Kurchina
    ... my ... the ... believe, ... Your Hungarian birth registration JPG file doesn t list a törvényes atya (legal father) ? Is there another sheet ? So the
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 24, 2000
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      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com, jajames@c... wrote:
      > I have just uploaded a file which is supposed to be a copy of the
      > birth registration for my Grandmother MUTNANSKY's first child (my
      > half-uncle). I am hoping it contains information that I can use in
      my
      > search and also for the sake of his children, I hope it contains
      the
      > name of his father.
      >
      > In English his name was Elmer, but he has been called Emil on some
      > early census records. Since the document is in Hungarian, I
      believe,
      > I cannot read it. I see the words, Ilava, Nemsova, Budapest,
      > Mutnansky, and 1900.

      Your Hungarian birth registration JPG file doesn't list
      a törvényes atya (legal father) ?
      Is there another sheet ?

      So the child is born at a Vedgát Street address in Budapest,
      Hungary proper and not in Ilava or Nemos^ova, Slovakia (Upper
      Hungary)

      What was mother's (GM Mutnánsky's first name ?)

      At the smugged portion of document what is the word before
      vármegye
      (county) ?
      It should be Trencsén.

      Nemosova was in the Puchó district with its county seat located
      at Puhó (H) Púchov (Sv)
      Ilava was in the Illava district with its county seat located
      at Illava (H) Ilava (Sv)

      After word a gyemrek vallása (child's religion R.C.) is word
      utóneve
      (given name)
      The boy child's first name was Elemér (diminutive Elkó)
      That is a Hungarian male name for which there ia no direct equivalent
      in English or Latin.
      Strictly a Hungarian name.
      It was probably later changed to some close looking English (Elmer)
      or Slovak (Emil) first name.
    • Judy/Dick James
      Frank, Grandmother s name was Helen Mutnansky. We do not think that it was a legitimate birth, but for the sake of the children were hoping it might have been
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 24, 2000
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        Frank,

        Grandmother's name was Helen Mutnansky. We do not think that it was a
        legitimate birth, but for the sake of the children were hoping it might have
        been and that the their father's name would be listed on the certificate.
        Thank you so much for your time and efforts in translating a very poor
        copy. I appreciate it very much.

        My grandmother worked away from home as a house cleaner or maid. I did know
        that she had worked in Vienna, but she may have worked in Budapest also.

        I will tell my cousins the part about their father's name. It will be of
        interest to them. One of the granddaughters of Elmer Mutnansky is doing the
        genealogy for their side of the family. She will appreciate the information
        you have given.

        Thank you for such a quick response.

        Judy


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@...>
        To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 8:14 AM
        Subject: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Re: Mutnansky birth2 file


        >
        > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com, jajames@c... wrote:
        > > I have just uploaded a file which is supposed to be a copy of the
        > > birth registration for my Grandmother MUTNANSKY's first child (my
        > > half-uncle). I am hoping it contains information that I can use in
        > my
        > > search and also for the sake of his children, I hope it contains
        > the
        > > name of his father.
        > >
        > > In English his name was Elmer, but he has been called Emil on some
        > > early census records. Since the document is in Hungarian, I
        > believe,
        > > I cannot read it. I see the words, Ilava, Nemsova, Budapest,
        > > Mutnansky, and 1900.
        >
        > Your Hungarian birth registration JPG file doesn't list
        > a törvényes atya (legal father) ?
        > Is there another sheet ?
        >
        > So the child is born at a Vedgát Street address in Budapest,
        > Hungary proper and not in Ilava or Nemos^ova, Slovakia (Upper
        > Hungary)
        >
        > What was mother's (GM Mutnánsky's first name ?)
        >
        > At the smugged portion of document what is the word before
        > vármegye
        > (county) ?
        > It should be Trencsén.
        >
        > Nemosova was in the Puchó district with its county seat located
        > at Puhó (H) Púchov (Sv)
        > Ilava was in the Illava district with its county seat located
        > at Illava (H) Ilava (Sv)
        >
        > After word a gyemrek vallása (child's religion R.C.) is word
        > utóneve
        > (given name)
        > The boy child's first name was Elemér (diminutive Elkó)
        > That is a Hungarian male name for which there ia no direct equivalent
        > in English or Latin.
        > Strictly a Hungarian name.
        > It was probably later changed to some close looking English (Elmer)
        > or Slovak (Emil) first name.
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Judy/Dick James
        Frank, There is some information on the back of the document. I will upload that file now. I just assumed it was official stamps, etc. Judy ... From: Frank
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 24, 2000
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          Frank,

          There is some information on the back of the document. I will upload that
          file now. I just assumed it was official stamps, etc.

          Judy

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@...>
          To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 8:14 AM
          Subject: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Re: Mutnansky birth2 file


          >
          > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com, jajames@c... wrote:
          > > I have just uploaded a file which is supposed to be a copy of the
          > > birth registration for my Grandmother MUTNANSKY's first child (my
          > > half-uncle). I am hoping it contains information that I can use in
          > my
          > > search and also for the sake of his children, I hope it contains
          > the
          > > name of his father.
          > >
          > > In English his name was Elmer, but he has been called Emil on some
          > > early census records. Since the document is in Hungarian, I
          > believe,
          > > I cannot read it. I see the words, Ilava, Nemsova, Budapest,
          > > Mutnansky, and 1900.
          >
          > Your Hungarian birth registration JPG file doesn't list
          > a törvényes atya (legal father) ?
          > Is there another sheet ?
          >
          > So the child is born at a Vedgát Street address in Budapest,
          > Hungary proper and not in Ilava or Nemos^ova, Slovakia (Upper
          > Hungary)
          >
          > What was mother's (GM Mutnánsky's first name ?)
          >
          > At the smugged portion of document what is the word before
          > vármegye
          > (county) ?
          > It should be Trencsén.
          >
          > Nemosova was in the Puchó district with its county seat located
          > at Puhó (H) Púchov (Sv)
          > Ilava was in the Illava district with its county seat located
          > at Illava (H) Ilava (Sv)
          >
          > After word a gyemrek vallása (child's religion R.C.) is word
          > utóneve
          > (given name)
          > The boy child's first name was Elemér (diminutive Elkó)
          > That is a Hungarian male name for which there ia no direct equivalent
          > in English or Latin.
          > Strictly a Hungarian name.
          > It was probably later changed to some close looking English (Elmer)
          > or Slovak (Emil) first name.
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Ron Matviyak2
          Judy, Vienna & Budapest are very close together, only 50 or 80 miles by memory. In any case it remains possible she was working in Vienna and returned to the
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 24, 2000
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            Judy,

            Vienna & Budapest are very close together, only 50 or 80 miles by memory.
            In any case it remains possible she was working in Vienna and returned to
            the Hungarian homeland (to Budapest relatives who would care for her?) for
            medical attention and the birth.

            Ron


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Judy/Dick James <jajames@...>
            To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 5:22 AM
            Subject: Re: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Re: Mutnansky birth2 file


            >
            > Frank,
            >
            > Grandmother's name was Helen Mutnansky. We do not think that it was a
            > legitimate birth, but for the sake of the children were hoping it might
            have
            > been and that the their father's name would be listed on the certificate.
            > Thank you so much for your time and efforts in translating a very poor
            > copy. I appreciate it very much.
            >
            > My grandmother worked away from home as a house cleaner or maid. I did
            know
            > that she had worked in Vienna, but she may have worked in Budapest also.
            >
            > I will tell my cousins the part about their father's name. It will be of
            > interest to them. One of the granddaughters of Elmer Mutnansky is doing
            the
            > genealogy for their side of the family. She will appreciate the
            information
            > you have given.
            >
            > Thank you for such a quick response.
            >
            > Judy
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@...>
            > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com>
            > Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 8:14 AM
            > Subject: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Re: Mutnansky birth2 file
            >
            >
            > >
            > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com, jajames@c... wrote:
            > > > I have just uploaded a file which is supposed to be a copy of the
            > > > birth registration for my Grandmother MUTNANSKY's first child (my
            > > > half-uncle). I am hoping it contains information that I can use in
            > > my
            > > > search and also for the sake of his children, I hope it contains
            > > the
            > > > name of his father.
            > > >
            > > > In English his name was Elmer, but he has been called Emil on some
            > > > early census records. Since the document is in Hungarian, I
            > > believe,
            > > > I cannot read it. I see the words, Ilava, Nemsova, Budapest,
            > > > Mutnansky, and 1900.
            > >
            > > Your Hungarian birth registration JPG file doesn't list
            > > a törvényes atya (legal father) ?
            > > Is there another sheet ?
            > >
            > > So the child is born at a Vedgát Street address in Budapest,
            > > Hungary proper and not in Ilava or Nemos^ova, Slovakia (Upper
            > > Hungary)
            > >
            > > What was mother's (GM Mutnánsky's first name ?)
            > >
            > > At the smugged portion of document what is the word before
            > > vármegye
            > > (county) ?
            > > It should be Trencsén.
            > >
            > > Nemosova was in the Puchó district with its county seat located
            > > at Puhó (H) Púchov (Sv)
            > > Ilava was in the Illava district with its county seat located
            > > at Illava (H) Ilava (Sv)
            > >
            > > After word a gyemrek vallása (child's religion R.C.) is word
            > > utóneve
            > > (given name)
            > > The boy child's first name was Elemér (diminutive Elkó)
            > > That is a Hungarian male name for which there ia no direct equivalent
            > > in English or Latin.
            > > Strictly a Hungarian name.
            > > It was probably later changed to some close looking English (Elmer)
            > > or Slovak (Emil) first name.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Frank Kurchina
            ... a ... might have ... certificate. ... poor ... did know ... also. ... be of ... doing the ... information ... Születési anyakönyvi kivonat means Birth
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 25, 2000
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              --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com, "Judy/Dick James" <jajames@c...>
              wrote:
              > Frank,
              >
              > Grandmother's name was Helen Mutnansky. We do not think that it was
              a
              > legitimate birth, but for the sake of the children were hoping it
              might have
              > been and that the their father's name would be listed on the
              certificate.
              > Thank you so much for your time and efforts in translating a very
              poor
              > copy. I appreciate it very much.
              >
              > My grandmother worked away from home as a house cleaner or maid. I
              did know
              > that she had worked in Vienna, but she may have worked in Budapest
              also.
              >
              > I will tell my cousins the part about their father's name. It will
              be of
              > interest to them. One of the granddaughters of Elmer Mutnansky is
              doing the
              > genealogy for their side of the family. She will appreciate the
              information
              > you have given.
              >
              > Thank you for such a quick response.
              >
              > Judy

              Születési anyakönyvi kivonat means Birth Certificate in
              Hungarian.

              As you wrote there appears to be something strange about it, such as
              the information is missing on both parents.

              Helen (E) is Helena, Ilona in Slovak and Ilona, Ilko in Hungarian.

              In Hungarian records the surname is listed first and then the given
              name.

              Mutnánsky, Ilona - so the mother on the certificate was named
              Helena.

              As you also wrote the copy is poor.

              The last line in document after the given name Elemér, looks to me
              like a surname, first name and a notation or a comment ?
              Perhaps your paper copy is more legible ?

              Surname First name Comment
              Il ? atán Ign ???? ______

              [Ignacs (H), Ignatius (L) ?]

              The seduction of a house maid by a male member of some household did
              occur in Wien, Budapest, or London, NYC, and other cities.

              The back of your document indicated the 1900 information was
              extracted from the Budapest City Archives in March 1946.
              WW 2 ended May 1945.

              Someone physically went to the city archives and had the birth
              information recorded.
            • Judy/Dick James
              Frank, Thank you again for all your effort in translating this document. The information you give about my Grandma s name clears up a lot for my family as we
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 25, 2000
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                Frank,
                Thank you again for all your effort in translating this document. The
                information you give about my Grandma's name clears up a lot for my family
                as we did not know why sometimes she was called Helen, Helena, Helene, and
                Ilka (Ilko). Now it is clear.

                As to the last 2 lines on the original copy, I will try to type it as I see
                it.
                A gyermek vallasa: "romai koiteulilis" utoneve: "Elemer
                Hala(n)or(r) Ign??er sl..a?di(?l) or (d)

                the printing is clear enough, I just can't interpret the handwriting. Sorry.

                I find it very intriguing that someone went there in person to register the
                birth. How would a person do that? What evidence or record would have been
                necessary. I know my uncle did not go in person as he would have never had
                the money for the trip and to the best of our knowledge the family was not
                in correspondence with any relatives.

                I am a lover of mysteries and I find genealogy to be better than any mystery
                novel.
                Thank you for helping to bring these documents to life for me.

                Judy

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@...>
                To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 4:12 AM
                Subject: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Re: Mutnansky birth2 file


                >
                > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com, "Judy/Dick James" <jajames@c...>
                > wrote:
                > > Frank,
                > >
                > > Grandmother's name was Helen Mutnansky. We do not think that it was
                > a
                > > legitimate birth, but for the sake of the children were hoping it
                > might have
                > > been and that the their father's name would be listed on the
                > certificate.
                > > Thank you so much for your time and efforts in translating a very
                > poor
                > > copy. I appreciate it very much.
                > >
                > > My grandmother worked away from home as a house cleaner or maid. I
                > did know
                > > that she had worked in Vienna, but she may have worked in Budapest
                > also.
                > >
                > > I will tell my cousins the part about their father's name. It will
                > be of
                > > interest to them. One of the granddaughters of Elmer Mutnansky is
                > doing the
                > > genealogy for their side of the family. She will appreciate the
                > information
                > > you have given.
                > >
                > > Thank you for such a quick response.
                > >
                > > Judy
                >
                > Születési anyakönyvi kivonat means Birth Certificate in
                > Hungarian.
                >
                > As you wrote there appears to be something strange about it, such as
                > the information is missing on both parents.
                >
                > Helen (E) is Helena, Ilona in Slovak and Ilona, Ilko in Hungarian.
                >
                > In Hungarian records the surname is listed first and then the given
                > name.
                >
                > Mutnánsky, Ilona - so the mother on the certificate was named
                > Helena.
                >
                > As you also wrote the copy is poor.
                >
                > The last line in document after the given name Elemér, looks to me
                > like a surname, first name and a notation or a comment ?
                > Perhaps your paper copy is more legible ?
                >
                > Surname First name Comment
                > Il ? atán Ign ???? ______
                >
                > [Ignacs (H), Ignatius (L) ?]
                >
                > The seduction of a house maid by a male member of some household did
                > occur in Wien, Budapest, or London, NYC, and other cities.
                >
                > The back of your document indicated the 1900 information was
                > extracted from the Budapest City Archives in March 1946.
                > WW 2 ended May 1945.
                >
                > Someone physically went to the city archives and had the birth
                > information recorded.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Frank Kurchina
                ... document. The ... family ... Helene, and ... as I see ... handwriting. Sorry. Normally the line after utoneve: Elemer would have been (Megjeggyzes) -
                Message 7 of 9 , Sep 25, 2000
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com, "Judy/Dick James" <jajames@c...>
                  wrote:
                  > Frank,
                  > Thank you again for all your effort in translating this
                  document. The
                  > information you give about my Grandma's name clears up a lot for my
                  family
                  > as we did not know why sometimes she was called Helen, Helena,
                  Helene, and
                  > Ilka (Ilko). Now it is clear.
                  >
                  > As to the last 2 lines on the original copy, I will try to type it
                  as I see
                  > it.
                  > A gyermek vallasa: "romai koiteulilis" utoneve: "Elemer
                  > Hala(n)or(r) Ign??er sl..a?di(?l) or (d)
                  >
                  > the printing is clear enough, I just can't interpret the
                  handwriting. Sorry.

                  Normally the line after utoneve: Elemer would have been
                  (Megjeggyzes) - observations, remarks.
                  Just don't know.

                  > I find it very intriguing that someone went there in person to
                  register the
                  > birth. How would a person do that? What evidence or record would
                  have been
                  > necessary.

                  Perhaps her address in Budapest was a hospital, or a midwife ?
                  Civil registration began in Hungary in 1895.

                  I know my uncle did not go in person as he would have
                  never had
                  > the money for the trip and to the best of our knowledge the family
                  was not
                  > in correspondence with any relatives.

                  No, you misunderstood what I wrote.
                  The birth was registered at the Budapest city archives in 1906.

                  Hungary had a 90 year disclosure rule which meant no records
                  from 1900 would have been accessible in 1946.
                  Someone went to city archives in March 1946 and got the copy of
                  the recorded 1906 birth.
                  You will note that a 194. decade form was used and the numeral
                  4 is slashed and 1900 decade is written in, so it was a copy of the
                  original.

                  Where did this birth certificate copy originate ?

                  In May 1945 my military unit crossed the Czechoslovakia border
                  and I was stationed in Germany in 1946.
                  Things were different after the war in Europe.
                  Because of these conditions , many things that were illegal were
                  possible. Money had little value and the standard currency was
                  cigarettes.
                  Expect conditions in 1946 were the same or worse in Hungary who
                  also had been an Axis partner.
                  Believe Hungary was a Soviet military zone back in 1946.

                  > I am a lover of mysteries and I find genealogy to be better than
                  any
                  mystery
                  > novel.
                  > Thank you for helping to bring these documents to life for me.
                  >
                  > Judy
                • Judy/Dick James
                  Frank, I can only guess that perhaps one of my Grandmother s relatives who stilled lived near Budapest got the copy and sent it to my uncle. I received a copy
                  Message 8 of 9 , Sep 25, 2000
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Frank,
                    I can only guess that perhaps one of my Grandmother's relatives who
                    stilled lived near Budapest got the copy and sent it to my uncle. I received
                    a copy of his daughter when I started working on the family genealogy. I
                    guess we will never know now.
                    thanks again,
                    Judy


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@...>
                    To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 8:54 PM
                    Subject: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Re: Mutnansky birth2 file


                    > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com, "Judy/Dick James" <jajames@c...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > Frank,
                    > > Thank you again for all your effort in translating this
                    > document. The
                    > > information you give about my Grandma's name clears up a lot for my
                    > family
                    > > as we did not know why sometimes she was called Helen, Helena,
                    > Helene, and
                    > > Ilka (Ilko). Now it is clear.
                    > >
                    > > As to the last 2 lines on the original copy, I will try to type it
                    > as I see
                    > > it.
                    > > A gyermek vallasa: "romai koiteulilis" utoneve: "Elemer
                    > > Hala(n)or(r) Ign??er sl..a?di(?l) or (d)
                    > >
                    > > the printing is clear enough, I just can't interpret the
                    > handwriting. Sorry.
                    >
                    > Normally the line after utoneve: Elemer would have been
                    > (Megjeggyzes) - observations, remarks.
                    > Just don't know.
                    >
                    > > I find it very intriguing that someone went there in person to
                    > register the
                    > > birth. How would a person do that? What evidence or record would
                    > have been
                    > > necessary.
                    >
                    > Perhaps her address in Budapest was a hospital, or a midwife ?
                    > Civil registration began in Hungary in 1895.
                    >
                    > I know my uncle did not go in person as he would have
                    > never had
                    > > the money for the trip and to the best of our knowledge the family
                    > was not
                    > > in correspondence with any relatives.
                    >
                    > No, you misunderstood what I wrote.
                    > The birth was registered at the Budapest city archives in 1906.
                    >
                    > Hungary had a 90 year disclosure rule which meant no records
                    > from 1900 would have been accessible in 1946.
                    > Someone went to city archives in March 1946 and got the copy of
                    > the recorded 1906 birth.
                    > You will note that a 194. decade form was used and the numeral
                    > 4 is slashed and 1900 decade is written in, so it was a copy of the
                    > original.
                    >
                    > Where did this birth certificate copy originate ?
                    >
                    > In May 1945 my military unit crossed the Czechoslovakia border
                    > and I was stationed in Germany in 1946.
                    > Things were different after the war in Europe.
                    > Because of these conditions , many things that were illegal were
                    > possible. Money had little value and the standard currency was
                    > cigarettes.
                    > Expect conditions in 1946 were the same or worse in Hungary who
                    > also had been an Axis partner.
                    > Believe Hungary was a Soviet military zone back in 1946.
                    >
                    > > I am a lover of mysteries and I find genealogy to be better than
                    > any
                    > mystery
                    > > novel.
                    > > Thank you for helping to bring these documents to life for me.
                    > >
                    > > Judy
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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