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Mutnansky birth2 file

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  • jajames@cloudnet.com
    I have just uploaded a file which is supposed to be a copy of the birth registration for my Grandmother MUTNANSKY s first child (my half-uncle). I am hoping it
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 23, 2000
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      I have just uploaded a file which is supposed to be a copy of the
      birth registration for my Grandmother MUTNANSKY's first child (my
      half-uncle). I am hoping it contains information that I can use in my
      search and also for the sake of his children, I hope it contains the
      name of his father.

      In English his name was Elmer, but he has been called Emil on some
      early census records. Since the document is in Hungarian, I believe,
      I cannot read it. I see the words, Ilava, Nemsova, Budapest,
      Mutnansky, and 1900.


      Any help in translating this document would be greatly appreciated.

      Being new to this group, I do not want to be impolite due to
      ignorance. Am I posting too many queries? I want to learn the proper
      ettiquette for participating. Please feel free to give me helpful
      information about group participation when needed.

      As always, with many thanks,
      Judy
    • Frank Kurchina
      ... my ... the ... believe, ... Your Hungarian birth registration JPG file doesn t list a törvényes atya (legal father) ? Is there another sheet ? So the
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 24, 2000
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        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com, jajames@c... wrote:
        > I have just uploaded a file which is supposed to be a copy of the
        > birth registration for my Grandmother MUTNANSKY's first child (my
        > half-uncle). I am hoping it contains information that I can use in
        my
        > search and also for the sake of his children, I hope it contains
        the
        > name of his father.
        >
        > In English his name was Elmer, but he has been called Emil on some
        > early census records. Since the document is in Hungarian, I
        believe,
        > I cannot read it. I see the words, Ilava, Nemsova, Budapest,
        > Mutnansky, and 1900.

        Your Hungarian birth registration JPG file doesn't list
        a törvényes atya (legal father) ?
        Is there another sheet ?

        So the child is born at a Vedgát Street address in Budapest,
        Hungary proper and not in Ilava or Nemos^ova, Slovakia (Upper
        Hungary)

        What was mother's (GM Mutnánsky's first name ?)

        At the smugged portion of document what is the word before
        vármegye
        (county) ?
        It should be Trencsén.

        Nemosova was in the Puchó district with its county seat located
        at Puhó (H) Púchov (Sv)
        Ilava was in the Illava district with its county seat located
        at Illava (H) Ilava (Sv)

        After word a gyemrek vallása (child's religion R.C.) is word
        utóneve
        (given name)
        The boy child's first name was Elemér (diminutive Elkó)
        That is a Hungarian male name for which there ia no direct equivalent
        in English or Latin.
        Strictly a Hungarian name.
        It was probably later changed to some close looking English (Elmer)
        or Slovak (Emil) first name.
      • Judy/Dick James
        Frank, Grandmother s name was Helen Mutnansky. We do not think that it was a legitimate birth, but for the sake of the children were hoping it might have been
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 24, 2000
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          Frank,

          Grandmother's name was Helen Mutnansky. We do not think that it was a
          legitimate birth, but for the sake of the children were hoping it might have
          been and that the their father's name would be listed on the certificate.
          Thank you so much for your time and efforts in translating a very poor
          copy. I appreciate it very much.

          My grandmother worked away from home as a house cleaner or maid. I did know
          that she had worked in Vienna, but she may have worked in Budapest also.

          I will tell my cousins the part about their father's name. It will be of
          interest to them. One of the granddaughters of Elmer Mutnansky is doing the
          genealogy for their side of the family. She will appreciate the information
          you have given.

          Thank you for such a quick response.

          Judy


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@...>
          To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 8:14 AM
          Subject: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Re: Mutnansky birth2 file


          >
          > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com, jajames@c... wrote:
          > > I have just uploaded a file which is supposed to be a copy of the
          > > birth registration for my Grandmother MUTNANSKY's first child (my
          > > half-uncle). I am hoping it contains information that I can use in
          > my
          > > search and also for the sake of his children, I hope it contains
          > the
          > > name of his father.
          > >
          > > In English his name was Elmer, but he has been called Emil on some
          > > early census records. Since the document is in Hungarian, I
          > believe,
          > > I cannot read it. I see the words, Ilava, Nemsova, Budapest,
          > > Mutnansky, and 1900.
          >
          > Your Hungarian birth registration JPG file doesn't list
          > a törvényes atya (legal father) ?
          > Is there another sheet ?
          >
          > So the child is born at a Vedgát Street address in Budapest,
          > Hungary proper and not in Ilava or Nemos^ova, Slovakia (Upper
          > Hungary)
          >
          > What was mother's (GM Mutnánsky's first name ?)
          >
          > At the smugged portion of document what is the word before
          > vármegye
          > (county) ?
          > It should be Trencsén.
          >
          > Nemosova was in the Puchó district with its county seat located
          > at Puhó (H) Púchov (Sv)
          > Ilava was in the Illava district with its county seat located
          > at Illava (H) Ilava (Sv)
          >
          > After word a gyemrek vallása (child's religion R.C.) is word
          > utóneve
          > (given name)
          > The boy child's first name was Elemér (diminutive Elkó)
          > That is a Hungarian male name for which there ia no direct equivalent
          > in English or Latin.
          > Strictly a Hungarian name.
          > It was probably later changed to some close looking English (Elmer)
          > or Slovak (Emil) first name.
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Judy/Dick James
          Frank, There is some information on the back of the document. I will upload that file now. I just assumed it was official stamps, etc. Judy ... From: Frank
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 24, 2000
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            Frank,

            There is some information on the back of the document. I will upload that
            file now. I just assumed it was official stamps, etc.

            Judy

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@...>
            To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 8:14 AM
            Subject: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Re: Mutnansky birth2 file


            >
            > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com, jajames@c... wrote:
            > > I have just uploaded a file which is supposed to be a copy of the
            > > birth registration for my Grandmother MUTNANSKY's first child (my
            > > half-uncle). I am hoping it contains information that I can use in
            > my
            > > search and also for the sake of his children, I hope it contains
            > the
            > > name of his father.
            > >
            > > In English his name was Elmer, but he has been called Emil on some
            > > early census records. Since the document is in Hungarian, I
            > believe,
            > > I cannot read it. I see the words, Ilava, Nemsova, Budapest,
            > > Mutnansky, and 1900.
            >
            > Your Hungarian birth registration JPG file doesn't list
            > a törvényes atya (legal father) ?
            > Is there another sheet ?
            >
            > So the child is born at a Vedgát Street address in Budapest,
            > Hungary proper and not in Ilava or Nemos^ova, Slovakia (Upper
            > Hungary)
            >
            > What was mother's (GM Mutnánsky's first name ?)
            >
            > At the smugged portion of document what is the word before
            > vármegye
            > (county) ?
            > It should be Trencsén.
            >
            > Nemosova was in the Puchó district with its county seat located
            > at Puhó (H) Púchov (Sv)
            > Ilava was in the Illava district with its county seat located
            > at Illava (H) Ilava (Sv)
            >
            > After word a gyemrek vallása (child's religion R.C.) is word
            > utóneve
            > (given name)
            > The boy child's first name was Elemér (diminutive Elkó)
            > That is a Hungarian male name for which there ia no direct equivalent
            > in English or Latin.
            > Strictly a Hungarian name.
            > It was probably later changed to some close looking English (Elmer)
            > or Slovak (Emil) first name.
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Ron Matviyak2
            Judy, Vienna & Budapest are very close together, only 50 or 80 miles by memory. In any case it remains possible she was working in Vienna and returned to the
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 24, 2000
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              Judy,

              Vienna & Budapest are very close together, only 50 or 80 miles by memory.
              In any case it remains possible she was working in Vienna and returned to
              the Hungarian homeland (to Budapest relatives who would care for her?) for
              medical attention and the birth.

              Ron


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Judy/Dick James <jajames@...>
              To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 5:22 AM
              Subject: Re: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Re: Mutnansky birth2 file


              >
              > Frank,
              >
              > Grandmother's name was Helen Mutnansky. We do not think that it was a
              > legitimate birth, but for the sake of the children were hoping it might
              have
              > been and that the their father's name would be listed on the certificate.
              > Thank you so much for your time and efforts in translating a very poor
              > copy. I appreciate it very much.
              >
              > My grandmother worked away from home as a house cleaner or maid. I did
              know
              > that she had worked in Vienna, but she may have worked in Budapest also.
              >
              > I will tell my cousins the part about their father's name. It will be of
              > interest to them. One of the granddaughters of Elmer Mutnansky is doing
              the
              > genealogy for their side of the family. She will appreciate the
              information
              > you have given.
              >
              > Thank you for such a quick response.
              >
              > Judy
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@...>
              > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com>
              > Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 8:14 AM
              > Subject: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Re: Mutnansky birth2 file
              >
              >
              > >
              > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com, jajames@c... wrote:
              > > > I have just uploaded a file which is supposed to be a copy of the
              > > > birth registration for my Grandmother MUTNANSKY's first child (my
              > > > half-uncle). I am hoping it contains information that I can use in
              > > my
              > > > search and also for the sake of his children, I hope it contains
              > > the
              > > > name of his father.
              > > >
              > > > In English his name was Elmer, but he has been called Emil on some
              > > > early census records. Since the document is in Hungarian, I
              > > believe,
              > > > I cannot read it. I see the words, Ilava, Nemsova, Budapest,
              > > > Mutnansky, and 1900.
              > >
              > > Your Hungarian birth registration JPG file doesn't list
              > > a törvényes atya (legal father) ?
              > > Is there another sheet ?
              > >
              > > So the child is born at a Vedgát Street address in Budapest,
              > > Hungary proper and not in Ilava or Nemos^ova, Slovakia (Upper
              > > Hungary)
              > >
              > > What was mother's (GM Mutnánsky's first name ?)
              > >
              > > At the smugged portion of document what is the word before
              > > vármegye
              > > (county) ?
              > > It should be Trencsén.
              > >
              > > Nemosova was in the Puchó district with its county seat located
              > > at Puhó (H) Púchov (Sv)
              > > Ilava was in the Illava district with its county seat located
              > > at Illava (H) Ilava (Sv)
              > >
              > > After word a gyemrek vallása (child's religion R.C.) is word
              > > utóneve
              > > (given name)
              > > The boy child's first name was Elemér (diminutive Elkó)
              > > That is a Hungarian male name for which there ia no direct equivalent
              > > in English or Latin.
              > > Strictly a Hungarian name.
              > > It was probably later changed to some close looking English (Elmer)
              > > or Slovak (Emil) first name.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Frank Kurchina
              ... a ... might have ... certificate. ... poor ... did know ... also. ... be of ... doing the ... information ... Születési anyakönyvi kivonat means Birth
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 25, 2000
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                --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com, "Judy/Dick James" <jajames@c...>
                wrote:
                > Frank,
                >
                > Grandmother's name was Helen Mutnansky. We do not think that it was
                a
                > legitimate birth, but for the sake of the children were hoping it
                might have
                > been and that the their father's name would be listed on the
                certificate.
                > Thank you so much for your time and efforts in translating a very
                poor
                > copy. I appreciate it very much.
                >
                > My grandmother worked away from home as a house cleaner or maid. I
                did know
                > that she had worked in Vienna, but she may have worked in Budapest
                also.
                >
                > I will tell my cousins the part about their father's name. It will
                be of
                > interest to them. One of the granddaughters of Elmer Mutnansky is
                doing the
                > genealogy for their side of the family. She will appreciate the
                information
                > you have given.
                >
                > Thank you for such a quick response.
                >
                > Judy

                Születési anyakönyvi kivonat means Birth Certificate in
                Hungarian.

                As you wrote there appears to be something strange about it, such as
                the information is missing on both parents.

                Helen (E) is Helena, Ilona in Slovak and Ilona, Ilko in Hungarian.

                In Hungarian records the surname is listed first and then the given
                name.

                Mutnánsky, Ilona - so the mother on the certificate was named
                Helena.

                As you also wrote the copy is poor.

                The last line in document after the given name Elemér, looks to me
                like a surname, first name and a notation or a comment ?
                Perhaps your paper copy is more legible ?

                Surname First name Comment
                Il ? atán Ign ???? ______

                [Ignacs (H), Ignatius (L) ?]

                The seduction of a house maid by a male member of some household did
                occur in Wien, Budapest, or London, NYC, and other cities.

                The back of your document indicated the 1900 information was
                extracted from the Budapest City Archives in March 1946.
                WW 2 ended May 1945.

                Someone physically went to the city archives and had the birth
                information recorded.
              • Judy/Dick James
                Frank, Thank you again for all your effort in translating this document. The information you give about my Grandma s name clears up a lot for my family as we
                Message 7 of 9 , Sep 25, 2000
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                  Frank,
                  Thank you again for all your effort in translating this document. The
                  information you give about my Grandma's name clears up a lot for my family
                  as we did not know why sometimes she was called Helen, Helena, Helene, and
                  Ilka (Ilko). Now it is clear.

                  As to the last 2 lines on the original copy, I will try to type it as I see
                  it.
                  A gyermek vallasa: "romai koiteulilis" utoneve: "Elemer
                  Hala(n)or(r) Ign??er sl..a?di(?l) or (d)

                  the printing is clear enough, I just can't interpret the handwriting. Sorry.

                  I find it very intriguing that someone went there in person to register the
                  birth. How would a person do that? What evidence or record would have been
                  necessary. I know my uncle did not go in person as he would have never had
                  the money for the trip and to the best of our knowledge the family was not
                  in correspondence with any relatives.

                  I am a lover of mysteries and I find genealogy to be better than any mystery
                  novel.
                  Thank you for helping to bring these documents to life for me.

                  Judy

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@...>
                  To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 4:12 AM
                  Subject: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Re: Mutnansky birth2 file


                  >
                  > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com, "Judy/Dick James" <jajames@c...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > Frank,
                  > >
                  > > Grandmother's name was Helen Mutnansky. We do not think that it was
                  > a
                  > > legitimate birth, but for the sake of the children were hoping it
                  > might have
                  > > been and that the their father's name would be listed on the
                  > certificate.
                  > > Thank you so much for your time and efforts in translating a very
                  > poor
                  > > copy. I appreciate it very much.
                  > >
                  > > My grandmother worked away from home as a house cleaner or maid. I
                  > did know
                  > > that she had worked in Vienna, but she may have worked in Budapest
                  > also.
                  > >
                  > > I will tell my cousins the part about their father's name. It will
                  > be of
                  > > interest to them. One of the granddaughters of Elmer Mutnansky is
                  > doing the
                  > > genealogy for their side of the family. She will appreciate the
                  > information
                  > > you have given.
                  > >
                  > > Thank you for such a quick response.
                  > >
                  > > Judy
                  >
                  > Születési anyakönyvi kivonat means Birth Certificate in
                  > Hungarian.
                  >
                  > As you wrote there appears to be something strange about it, such as
                  > the information is missing on both parents.
                  >
                  > Helen (E) is Helena, Ilona in Slovak and Ilona, Ilko in Hungarian.
                  >
                  > In Hungarian records the surname is listed first and then the given
                  > name.
                  >
                  > Mutnánsky, Ilona - so the mother on the certificate was named
                  > Helena.
                  >
                  > As you also wrote the copy is poor.
                  >
                  > The last line in document after the given name Elemér, looks to me
                  > like a surname, first name and a notation or a comment ?
                  > Perhaps your paper copy is more legible ?
                  >
                  > Surname First name Comment
                  > Il ? atán Ign ???? ______
                  >
                  > [Ignacs (H), Ignatius (L) ?]
                  >
                  > The seduction of a house maid by a male member of some household did
                  > occur in Wien, Budapest, or London, NYC, and other cities.
                  >
                  > The back of your document indicated the 1900 information was
                  > extracted from the Budapest City Archives in March 1946.
                  > WW 2 ended May 1945.
                  >
                  > Someone physically went to the city archives and had the birth
                  > information recorded.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Frank Kurchina
                  ... document. The ... family ... Helene, and ... as I see ... handwriting. Sorry. Normally the line after utoneve: Elemer would have been (Megjeggyzes) -
                  Message 8 of 9 , Sep 25, 2000
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com, "Judy/Dick James" <jajames@c...>
                    wrote:
                    > Frank,
                    > Thank you again for all your effort in translating this
                    document. The
                    > information you give about my Grandma's name clears up a lot for my
                    family
                    > as we did not know why sometimes she was called Helen, Helena,
                    Helene, and
                    > Ilka (Ilko). Now it is clear.
                    >
                    > As to the last 2 lines on the original copy, I will try to type it
                    as I see
                    > it.
                    > A gyermek vallasa: "romai koiteulilis" utoneve: "Elemer
                    > Hala(n)or(r) Ign??er sl..a?di(?l) or (d)
                    >
                    > the printing is clear enough, I just can't interpret the
                    handwriting. Sorry.

                    Normally the line after utoneve: Elemer would have been
                    (Megjeggyzes) - observations, remarks.
                    Just don't know.

                    > I find it very intriguing that someone went there in person to
                    register the
                    > birth. How would a person do that? What evidence or record would
                    have been
                    > necessary.

                    Perhaps her address in Budapest was a hospital, or a midwife ?
                    Civil registration began in Hungary in 1895.

                    I know my uncle did not go in person as he would have
                    never had
                    > the money for the trip and to the best of our knowledge the family
                    was not
                    > in correspondence with any relatives.

                    No, you misunderstood what I wrote.
                    The birth was registered at the Budapest city archives in 1906.

                    Hungary had a 90 year disclosure rule which meant no records
                    from 1900 would have been accessible in 1946.
                    Someone went to city archives in March 1946 and got the copy of
                    the recorded 1906 birth.
                    You will note that a 194. decade form was used and the numeral
                    4 is slashed and 1900 decade is written in, so it was a copy of the
                    original.

                    Where did this birth certificate copy originate ?

                    In May 1945 my military unit crossed the Czechoslovakia border
                    and I was stationed in Germany in 1946.
                    Things were different after the war in Europe.
                    Because of these conditions , many things that were illegal were
                    possible. Money had little value and the standard currency was
                    cigarettes.
                    Expect conditions in 1946 were the same or worse in Hungary who
                    also had been an Axis partner.
                    Believe Hungary was a Soviet military zone back in 1946.

                    > I am a lover of mysteries and I find genealogy to be better than
                    any
                    mystery
                    > novel.
                    > Thank you for helping to bring these documents to life for me.
                    >
                    > Judy
                  • Judy/Dick James
                    Frank, I can only guess that perhaps one of my Grandmother s relatives who stilled lived near Budapest got the copy and sent it to my uncle. I received a copy
                    Message 9 of 9 , Sep 25, 2000
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                      Frank,
                      I can only guess that perhaps one of my Grandmother's relatives who
                      stilled lived near Budapest got the copy and sent it to my uncle. I received
                      a copy of his daughter when I started working on the family genealogy. I
                      guess we will never know now.
                      thanks again,
                      Judy


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@...>
                      To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 8:54 PM
                      Subject: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Re: Mutnansky birth2 file


                      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@egroups.com, "Judy/Dick James" <jajames@c...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > Frank,
                      > > Thank you again for all your effort in translating this
                      > document. The
                      > > information you give about my Grandma's name clears up a lot for my
                      > family
                      > > as we did not know why sometimes she was called Helen, Helena,
                      > Helene, and
                      > > Ilka (Ilko). Now it is clear.
                      > >
                      > > As to the last 2 lines on the original copy, I will try to type it
                      > as I see
                      > > it.
                      > > A gyermek vallasa: "romai koiteulilis" utoneve: "Elemer
                      > > Hala(n)or(r) Ign??er sl..a?di(?l) or (d)
                      > >
                      > > the printing is clear enough, I just can't interpret the
                      > handwriting. Sorry.
                      >
                      > Normally the line after utoneve: Elemer would have been
                      > (Megjeggyzes) - observations, remarks.
                      > Just don't know.
                      >
                      > > I find it very intriguing that someone went there in person to
                      > register the
                      > > birth. How would a person do that? What evidence or record would
                      > have been
                      > > necessary.
                      >
                      > Perhaps her address in Budapest was a hospital, or a midwife ?
                      > Civil registration began in Hungary in 1895.
                      >
                      > I know my uncle did not go in person as he would have
                      > never had
                      > > the money for the trip and to the best of our knowledge the family
                      > was not
                      > > in correspondence with any relatives.
                      >
                      > No, you misunderstood what I wrote.
                      > The birth was registered at the Budapest city archives in 1906.
                      >
                      > Hungary had a 90 year disclosure rule which meant no records
                      > from 1900 would have been accessible in 1946.
                      > Someone went to city archives in March 1946 and got the copy of
                      > the recorded 1906 birth.
                      > You will note that a 194. decade form was used and the numeral
                      > 4 is slashed and 1900 decade is written in, so it was a copy of the
                      > original.
                      >
                      > Where did this birth certificate copy originate ?
                      >
                      > In May 1945 my military unit crossed the Czechoslovakia border
                      > and I was stationed in Germany in 1946.
                      > Things were different after the war in Europe.
                      > Because of these conditions , many things that were illegal were
                      > possible. Money had little value and the standard currency was
                      > cigarettes.
                      > Expect conditions in 1946 were the same or worse in Hungary who
                      > also had been an Axis partner.
                      > Believe Hungary was a Soviet military zone back in 1946.
                      >
                      > > I am a lover of mysteries and I find genealogy to be better than
                      > any
                      > mystery
                      > > novel.
                      > > Thank you for helping to bring these documents to life for me.
                      > >
                      > > Judy
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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