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Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

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  • Ben Sorensen
    Just to add into the Vaclav thread, Emperor Charles IV (the father of the Czech lands) wrote a history of Sv. Vaclav in Latin. This was an anomality, as kings
    Message 1 of 19 , Aug 2, 2009
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      Just to add into the Vaclav thread, Emperor Charles IV (the father of the Czech lands) wrote a history of Sv. Vaclav in Latin. This was an anomality, as kings usually didn't spend time with the pen, but thankfully Charles IV did.  In Latin, Vaclav is Wenceslaus, and hence the English name as well.  I have a copy of this in Latin and English....
       
      One very overlooked reason that people change thier names upon emigrating is that they get sick of hearing thier names butchered.  So, the immigrant is left with two options after a while when people can't pronounce his name- he will either introduce himself and "butcher" his own name into English phonetics (or the local phonetics....) or he will take on an easier name- like Jack instead of Slavomir (not often so drastically as I just demonstrated).  The third, and not often met, option is to be stubborn about the pronunciation of his name, which doesn't make him the most welcome company. 
       
      Figuring out why a name changes is usually futile, unless that subject is still alive.
      Ben

      --- On Sun, 8/2/09, Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:


      From: Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...>
      Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 11:13 PM


       



      On the list English Versions of Foreign Names Czech and Slovak have no given equivalent to James. Hungarian had Imre and Polish had Dymitry.

      From: charles tintera
      Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 2:20 PM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

      Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

      According to the St. Procopius Church Registry my father's first name was
      Vaclav at birth but on every other record that I have he is named James or
      James B.

      I have the impression that it was a common thing to change a child's name
      from a Slovak or Bohemian first name to the equivalent in American-English.

      But why that choice, what is the relation of the name "Vaclav" to the name
      "James"? They do not seem to correspond at all to me.

      Charles "Chuck" Tintera

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Janet Kozlay
      My argument would have held more weight had I found that Vaclav/Wenceslaus and James had the same feast day, but, alas, they do not. On the other hand, going
      Message 2 of 19 , Aug 3, 2009
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        My argument would have held more weight had I found that Vaclav/Wenceslaus
        and James had the same feast day, but, alas, they do not.



        On the other hand, going back further, the name James has its origins in the
        Hebrew name Jakov/Jaakov. Could Jakov and Vaclav in turn be related?



        How are the names of Jesus' disciples named in a Czech Bible?



        Janet



        _____

        From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Ben Sorensen
        Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 12:11 AM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James





        Just to add into the Vaclav thread, Emperor Charles IV (the father of the
        Czech lands) wrote a history of Sv. Vaclav in Latin. This was an anomality,
        as kings usually didn't spend time with the pen, but thankfully Charles IV
        did. In Latin, Vaclav is Wenceslaus, and hence the English name as well. I
        have a copy of this in Latin and English....

        One very overlooked reason that people change thier names upon emigrating is
        that they get sick of hearing thier names butchered. So, the immigrant is
        left with two options after a while when people can't pronounce his name- he
        will either introduce himself and "butcher" his own name into English
        phonetics (or the local phonetics....) or he will take on an easier name-
        like Jack instead of Slavomir (not often so drastically as I just
        demonstrated). The third, and not often met, option is to be stubborn about
        the pronunciation of his name, which doesn't make him the most welcome
        company.

        Figuring out why a name changes is usually futile, unless that subject is
        still alive.
        Ben

        --- On Sun, 8/2/09, Michael Mojher <mgmojher@comcast.
        <mailto:mgmojher%40comcast.net> net> wrote:

        From: Michael Mojher <mgmojher@comcast. <mailto:mgmojher%40comcast.net> net>
        Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 11:13 PM



        On the list English Versions of Foreign Names Czech and Slovak have no given
        equivalent to James. Hungarian had Imre and Polish had Dymitry.

        From: charles tintera
        Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 2:20 PM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
        Subject: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

        Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

        According to the St. Procopius Church Registry my father's first name was
        Vaclav at birth but on every other record that I have he is named James or
        James B.

        I have the impression that it was a common thing to change a child's name
        from a Slovak or Bohemian first name to the equivalent in American-English.

        But why that choice, what is the relation of the name "Vaclav" to the name
        "James"? They do not seem to correspond at all to me.

        Charles "Chuck" Tintera

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Armata, Joseph R
        James is Jakub in Czech, coming from Hebrew meaning to take by the heel. Vaclav is a native Slavic name, coming from roots meaning greater glory. So the names
        Message 3 of 19 , Aug 3, 2009
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          James is Jakub in Czech, coming from Hebrew meaning to take by the heel.

          Vaclav is a native Slavic name, coming from roots meaning greater glory.

          So the names are completely unrelated. Your Vaclav probably just picked the name James to go by. Think of all the Chinese university students who come to America today and pick an arbitrary English name to use.

          Joe


          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-
          > ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Janet Kozlay
          > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:25 AM
          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
          >
          >
          >
          > My argument would have held more weight had I found that
          > Vaclav/Wenceslaus
          > and James had the same feast day, but, alas, they do not.
          >
          > On the other hand, going back further, the name James has its origins
          > in the
          > Hebrew name Jakov/Jaakov. Could Jakov and Vaclav in turn be related?
          >
          > How are the names of Jesus' disciples named in a Czech Bible?
          >
          > Janet
          >
        • Janet Kozlay
          However, I still don t see how that explains the enormous number of Vaclavs (and Hungarian Vencels) who changed their name to James. To me there are way too
          Message 4 of 19 , Aug 3, 2009
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            However, I still don't see how that explains the enormous number of Vaclavs
            (and Hungarian Vencels) who changed their name to James. To me there are way
            too many to be merely coincidental, though I may well be wrong.



            The answer is probably found in the publication "The Americanization of
            Czech Given Names" by Dudek. Unfortunately, from what I can see it is
            available only through JSTOR, to which I am not subscribed. Perhaps a
            subscriber could look it up for us.



            Janet





            _____

            From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of Armata, Joseph R
            Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 10:38 AM
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James





            James is Jakub in Czech, coming from Hebrew meaning to take by the heel.

            Vaclav is a native Slavic name, coming from roots meaning greater glory.

            So the names are completely unrelated. Your Vaclav probably just picked the
            name James to go by. Think of all the Chinese university students who come
            to America today and pick an arbitrary English name to use.

            Joe

            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-
            > ROOTS@yahoogroups. <mailto:ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf Of
            Janet Kozlay
            > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:25 AM
            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
            >
            >
            >
            > My argument would have held more weight had I found that
            > Vaclav/Wenceslaus
            > and James had the same feast day, but, alas, they do not.
            >
            > On the other hand, going back further, the name James has its origins
            > in the
            > Hebrew name Jakov/Jaakov. Could Jakov and Vaclav in turn be related?
            >
            > How are the names of Jesus' disciples named in a Czech Bible?
            >
            > Janet
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Michael Mojher
            Joe, In the Rootsweb s English Versions of Foreign Names Jakub s English version is Jacob. Under James Czech and Slovak blocks are left blank, indicating that
            Message 5 of 19 , Aug 3, 2009
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              Joe,
              In the Rootsweb's English Versions of Foreign Names Jakub's English version is Jacob. Under James Czech and Slovak blocks are left blank, indicating that there is no equivalent name for James in those languages.


              From: Armata, Joseph R
              Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 8:38 AM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James


              James is Jakub in Czech, coming from Hebrew meaning to take by the heel.

              Vaclav is a native Slavic name, coming from roots meaning greater glory.

              So the names are completely unrelated. Your Vaclav probably just picked the name James to go by. Think of all the Chinese university students who come to America today and pick an arbitrary English name to use.

              Joe

              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-
              > ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Janet Kozlay
              > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:25 AM
              > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
              >
              >
              >
              > My argument would have held more weight had I found that
              > Vaclav/Wenceslaus
              > and James had the same feast day, but, alas, they do not.
              >
              > On the other hand, going back further, the name James has its origins
              > in the
              > Hebrew name Jakov/Jaakov. Could Jakov and Vaclav in turn be related?
              >
              > How are the names of Jesus' disciples named in a Czech Bible?
              >
              > Janet
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Michael Mojher
              Janet, From this website: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Jacob Etymology From Late Latin Iacobus
              Message 6 of 19 , Aug 3, 2009
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                Janet,
                From this website: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Jacob

                Etymology
                From Late Latin Iacobus < Ancient Greek ??????? < Hebrew ???? (ya'aqov, heel-grabber) < ??? ('akev, heel of the foot). Cognate with James of the New Testament.

                Related terms
                a.. James and its variants
                a.. Jake, Jay, Jacques
                Cognate meaning a "common ancestor of origin". So it appears there is a justification for the two being exchanged.

                My apologies Joe, Jakub in Slavic languages is translated as Jacob and James.



                From: Janet Kozlay
                Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:29 AM
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James


                However, I still don't see how that explains the enormous number of Vaclavs
                (and Hungarian Vencels) who changed their name to James. To me there are way
                too many to be merely coincidental, though I may well be wrong.

                The answer is probably found in the publication "The Americanization of
                Czech Given Names" by Dudek. Unfortunately, from what I can see it is
                available only through JSTOR, to which I am not subscribed. Perhaps a
                subscriber could look it up for us.

                Janet

                _____

                From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of Armata, Joseph R
                Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 10:38 AM
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

                James is Jakub in Czech, coming from Hebrew meaning to take by the heel.

                Vaclav is a native Slavic name, coming from roots meaning greater glory.

                So the names are completely unrelated. Your Vaclav probably just picked the
                name James to go by. Think of all the Chinese university students who come
                to America today and pick an arbitrary English name to use.

                Joe

                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-
                > ROOTS@yahoogroups. <mailto:ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf Of
                Janet Kozlay
                > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:25 AM
                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                >
                >
                >
                > My argument would have held more weight had I found that
                > Vaclav/Wenceslaus
                > and James had the same feast day, but, alas, they do not.
                >
                > On the other hand, going back further, the name James has its origins
                > in the
                > Hebrew name Jakov/Jaakov. Could Jakov and Vaclav in turn be related?
                >
                > How are the names of Jesus' disciples named in a Czech Bible?
                >
                > Janet
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Tom Geiss
                Just like my grand mother s brother s name is JOZSEF. and my American relatives hear it pronounced, then write his name JOSKA. The evolution of names. Tom
                Message 7 of 19 , Aug 3, 2009
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                  Just like my grand mother's brother's name is JOZSEF. and my American relatives hear it pronounced, then write his name JOSKA. The evolution of names.
                  Tom
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Michael Mojher
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:03 PM
                  Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James


                  Joe,
                  In the Rootsweb's English Versions of Foreign Names Jakub's English version is Jacob. Under James Czech and Slovak blocks are left blank, indicating that there is no equivalent name for James in those languages.

                  From: Armata, Joseph R
                  Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 8:38 AM
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

                  James is Jakub in Czech, coming from Hebrew meaning to take by the heel.

                  Vaclav is a native Slavic name, coming from roots meaning greater glory.

                  So the names are completely unrelated. Your Vaclav probably just picked the name James to go by. Think of all the Chinese university students who come to America today and pick an arbitrary English name to use.

                  Joe

                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-
                  > ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Janet Kozlay
                  > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:25 AM
                  > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > My argument would have held more weight had I found that
                  > Vaclav/Wenceslaus
                  > and James had the same feast day, but, alas, they do not.
                  >
                  > On the other hand, going back further, the name James has its origins
                  > in the
                  > Hebrew name Jakov/Jaakov. Could Jakov and Vaclav in turn be related?
                  >
                  > How are the names of Jesus' disciples named in a Czech Bible?
                  >
                  > Janet
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Michael Mojher
                  Tom, Joska is the diminutive of Jozsef. The equivalent to our Joey. From: Tom Geiss Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 11:39 AM To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Message 8 of 19 , Aug 3, 2009
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                    Tom,
                    Joska is the diminutive of Jozsef. The equivalent to our Joey.


                    From: Tom Geiss
                    Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 11:39 AM
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James


                    Just like my grand mother's brother's name is JOZSEF. and my American relatives hear it pronounced, then write his name JOSKA. The evolution of names.
                    Tom
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Michael Mojher
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:03 PM
                    Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

                    Joe,
                    In the Rootsweb's English Versions of Foreign Names Jakub's English version is Jacob. Under James Czech and Slovak blocks are left blank, indicating that there is no equivalent name for James in those languages.

                    From: Armata, Joseph R
                    Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 8:38 AM
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

                    James is Jakub in Czech, coming from Hebrew meaning to take by the heel.

                    Vaclav is a native Slavic name, coming from roots meaning greater glory.

                    So the names are completely unrelated. Your Vaclav probably just picked the name James to go by. Think of all the Chinese university students who come to America today and pick an arbitrary English name to use.

                    Joe

                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-
                    > ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Janet Kozlay
                    > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:25 AM
                    > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > My argument would have held more weight had I found that
                    > Vaclav/Wenceslaus
                    > and James had the same feast day, but, alas, they do not.
                    >
                    > On the other hand, going back further, the name James has its origins
                    > in the
                    > Hebrew name Jakov/Jaakov. Could Jakov and Vaclav in turn be related?
                    >
                    > How are the names of Jesus' disciples named in a Czech Bible?
                    >
                    > Janet
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • jenna-m
                    Another aspect on name changes. A few years back in one of my evening classes, over half the class was foreign born. Three men in particular who were Russian,
                    Message 9 of 19 , Aug 3, 2009
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                      Another aspect on name changes. A few years back in one of my evening classes, over half the class was foreign born. Three men in particular who were Russian, wanted to not be called at all by their names on the roster. Even though they had what I thought were beautiful sounding names.,,names like Yevgeny...and preferred to be called and write on their papers names like "Gene." When I asked why thet would prefer such Americanized names when their given names might be attractive to Americans...they seemed leery as though that had not been their experiences. They also told me they wanted to disassociate with their past. One, I helped after school work on his resume, and again when I asked why he put "Bill" on his resume instead of his given name...he said only I thought his name was beautiful, here. Thought that people made (negative) assumptions about him based on his name. It seemed obvious that he had experienced discrimination  based on his name and
                      wanted to improve his odds of getting a job as well as dissociating from bad times "back home."
                       
                      I'd also add that the other two had a lot of energy about stating that they were Russian Jews, and proceeded to tell the class about the pogroms in Russia.
                       
                      Jenna
                       


                      --- On Mon, 8/3/09, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:


                      From: Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>
                      Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 1:10 AM


                       



                      Just to add into the Vaclav thread, Emperor Charles IV (the father of the Czech lands) wrote a history of Sv. Vaclav in Latin. This was an anomality, as kings usually didn't spend time with the pen, but thankfully Charles IV did.  In Latin, Vaclav is Wenceslaus, and hence the English name as well.  I have a copy of this in Latin and English....
                       
                      One very overlooked reason that people change thier names upon emigrating is that they get sick of hearing thier names butchered.  So, the immigrant is left with two options after a while when people can't pronounce his name- he will either introduce himself and "butcher" his own name into English phonetics (or the local phonetics... .) or he will take on an easier name- like Jack instead of Slavomir (not often so drastically as I just demonstrated) .  The third, and not often met, option is to be stubborn about the pronunciation of his name, which doesn't make him the most welcome company. 
                       
                      Figuring out why a name changes is usually futile, unless that subject is still alive.
                      Ben

                      --- On Sun, 8/2/09, Michael Mojher <mgmojher@comcast. net> wrote:

                      From: Michael Mojher <mgmojher@comcast. net>
                      Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                      Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 11:13 PM

                       

                      On the list English Versions of Foreign Names Czech and Slovak have no given equivalent to James. Hungarian had Imre and Polish had Dymitry.

                      From: charles tintera
                      Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 2:20 PM
                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

                      Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

                      According to the St. Procopius Church Registry my father's first name was
                      Vaclav at birth but on every other record that I have he is named James or
                      James B.

                      I have the impression that it was a common thing to change a child's name
                      from a Slovak or Bohemian first name to the equivalent in American-English.

                      But why that choice, what is the relation of the name "Vaclav" to the name
                      "James"? They do not seem to correspond at all to me.

                      Charles "Chuck" Tintera

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ben Sorensen
                      Hey there Mike et al... Just a quick correction. Joska is an objective case of the name.  While I am avoiding walking down the magical path of Slovak
                      Message 10 of 19 , Aug 3, 2009
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                        Hey there Mike et al...
                        Just a quick correction. "Joska" is an objective case of the name.  While I am avoiding walking down the magical path of Slovak grammar, the nominative- and therefore the good case to use in English, is Josko. To je Josko- This is Josko.  To je pre Joska- This is for Josko.
                        Just to be a little help...
                        Ben

                        --- On Mon, 8/3/09, Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:


                        From: Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...>
                        Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 3:13 PM


                         



                        Tom,
                        Joska is the diminutive of Jozsef. The equivalent to our Joey.

                        From: Tom Geiss
                        Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 11:39 AM
                        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                        Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

                        Just like my grand mother's brother's name is JOZSEF. and my American relatives hear it pronounced, then write his name JOSKA. The evolution of names.
                        Tom
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Michael Mojher
                        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                        Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:03 PM
                        Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

                        Joe,
                        In the Rootsweb's English Versions of Foreign Names Jakub's English version is Jacob. Under James Czech and Slovak blocks are left blank, indicating that there is no equivalent name for James in those languages.

                        From: Armata, Joseph R
                        Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 8:38 AM
                        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                        Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

                        James is Jakub in Czech, coming from Hebrew meaning to take by the heel.

                        Vaclav is a native Slavic name, coming from roots meaning greater glory.

                        So the names are completely unrelated. Your Vaclav probably just picked the name James to go by. Think of all the Chinese university students who come to America today and pick an arbitrary English name to use.

                        Joe

                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-
                        > ROOTS@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Janet Kozlay
                        > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:25 AM
                        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > My argument would have held more weight had I found that
                        > Vaclav/Wenceslaus
                        > and James had the same feast day, but, alas, they do not.
                        >
                        > On the other hand, going back further, the name James has its origins
                        > in the
                        > Hebrew name Jakov/Jaakov. Could Jakov and Vaclav in turn be related?
                        >
                        > How are the names of Jesus' disciples named in a Czech Bible?
                        >
                        > Janet
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Ron Matviyak
                        Just a quick addition to Ben s comment to recognize a potential point of confusion: Joschka is also a German first name, diminutive (as in Johnny), but does
                        Message 11 of 19 , Aug 3, 2009
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                          Just a quick addition to Ben's comment to recognize a potential point of confusion: Joschka is also a German first name, diminutive (as in Johnny), but does not change case as in the Slovak Joska. Of course spelling may vary by personal choice, adding to the confusion.

                          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hey there Mike et al...
                          > Just a quick correction. "Joska" is an objective case of the name. While I am avoiding walking down the magical path of Slovak grammar, the nominative- and therefore the good case to use in English, is Josko. To je Josko- This is Josko. To je pre Joska- This is for Josko.
                          > Just to be a little help...
                          > Ben
                          >
                          > --- On Mon, 8/3/09, Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > From: Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...>
                          > Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 3:13 PM
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Tom,
                          > Joska is the diminutive of Jozsef. The equivalent to our Joey.
                          >
                          > From: Tom Geiss
                          > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 11:39 AM
                          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                          > Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                          >
                          > Just like my grand mother's brother's name is JOZSEF. and my American relatives hear it pronounced, then write his name JOSKA. The evolution of names.
                          > Tom
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Michael Mojher
                          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                          > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:03 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                          >
                          > Joe,
                          > In the Rootsweb's English Versions of Foreign Names Jakub's English version is Jacob. Under James Czech and Slovak blocks are left blank, indicating that there is no equivalent name for James in those languages.
                          >
                          > From: Armata, Joseph R
                          > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 8:38 AM
                          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                          > Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                          >
                          > James is Jakub in Czech, coming from Hebrew meaning to take by the heel.
                          >
                          > Vaclav is a native Slavic name, coming from roots meaning greater glory.
                          >
                          > So the names are completely unrelated. Your Vaclav probably just picked the name James to go by. Think of all the Chinese university students who come to America today and pick an arbitrary English name to use.
                          >
                          > Joe
                          >
                          > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-
                          > > ROOTS@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Janet Kozlay
                          > > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:25 AM
                          > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                          > > Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > My argument would have held more weight had I found that
                          > > Vaclav/Wenceslaus
                          > > and James had the same feast day, but, alas, they do not.
                          > >
                          > > On the other hand, going back further, the name James has its origins
                          > > in the
                          > > Hebrew name Jakov/Jaakov. Could Jakov and Vaclav in turn be related?
                          > >
                          > > How are the names of Jesus' disciples named in a Czech Bible?
                          > >
                          > > Janet
                          > >
                          >
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                        • charles tintera
                          Names: Man s name change Vaclav to James According to the St. Procopius Church Registry my father s first name was Vaclav at birth but on every other record
                          Message 12 of 19 , Aug 4, 2009
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                            Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

                            "According to the St. Procopius Church Registry my father's first name was
                            Vaclav at birth but on every other record that I have he is named James or
                            James B."



                            Thank you all for your comments.



                            I think that it is mostly likely that my father's name change from Vaclav to
                            James was an attempt to fit in.



                            Why choose James in lieu of Vaclav? Maybe James was a popular choice at
                            that time (early 1900s in Chicago, Illinois) or maybe James (a single though
                            extended ascending tone) just sounds better in English than Vaclav (two hard
                            tones).



                            Since none of his family remains alive and the records are scanty, at best,
                            I recognize that there is no way to know.



                            I am still pursuing the St. Procopius records to see if there is a record of
                            a Roman Catholic Confirmation - perhaps he adopted "James" at that time and
                            used it thereafter eventually substituting a "B" for the "V" as his middle
                            initial. His name would have progressed from Vaclav to Vaclav James, to
                            James (Vaclav), to James V. and finally to James B.



                            Interesting to speculate, impossible to prove.



                            cvt





                            Charles "Chuck" Tintera





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Ben Sorensen
                            Hmm... As I read this, I think that there is an interesting reason- perhaps- for the middle initial becoming a B.  It is ingenious.... :-) on your ancestor s
                            Message 13 of 19 , Aug 4, 2009
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                              Hmm... As I read this, I think that there is an interesting reason- perhaps- for the middle initial becoming a B.  It is ingenious.... :-) on your ancestor's part!
                               
                              In azbuka- or the Russian alphabet- the sound of V is spelled with what looks like a Latin B.  Perhaps, though it is hard to prove, he was actually using the azbuka for his middle initial instead of the Latin letter!
                              Ben

                              --- On Tue, 8/4/09, charles tintera <ctintera@...> wrote:


                              From: charles tintera <ctintera@...>
                              Subject: [S-R] Re: Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2009, 7:12 PM


                               



                              Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

                              "According to the St. Procopius Church Registry my father's first name was
                              Vaclav at birth but on every other record that I have he is named James or
                              James B."

                              Thank you all for your comments.

                              I think that it is mostly likely that my father's name change from Vaclav to
                              James was an attempt to fit in.

                              Why choose James in lieu of Vaclav? Maybe James was a popular choice at
                              that time (early 1900s in Chicago, Illinois) or maybe James (a single though
                              extended ascending tone) just sounds better in English than Vaclav (two hard
                              tones).

                              Since none of his family remains alive and the records are scanty, at best,
                              I recognize that there is no way to know.

                              I am still pursuing the St. Procopius records to see if there is a record of
                              a Roman Catholic Confirmation - perhaps he adopted "James" at that time and
                              used it thereafter eventually substituting a "B" for the "V" as his middle
                              initial. His name would have progressed from Vaclav to Vaclav James, to
                              James (Vaclav), to James V. and finally to James B.

                              Interesting to speculate, impossible to prove.

                              cvt

                              Charles "Chuck" Tintera

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